Anybody gone overseas to teach?

[seadal]

I got an offer from a guy that has a studio in Vietnam, Thailand and Chezk rep to go teach color skills. Has anybody here gotten this off? I should be off in two weeks for the chance of a life time, should be gone for at least 3 months. I cant wait to get me some stamps on my passport.:tongue2:

[phab]

...if i remember correctly happy harold mentioned going overseas to teach a couple of years ago. kind of a 2 edged sword tho, imports killing the wholesale market and teaching them to improve their skills.

[ech]

I don't care if I get flamed for this but: Dude that is just totally fucked up. Really selfish. If you do that I hope the karma comes back and bites you hard.

[petto]

It's a great opprotunity for sure, but in the long run will it be worth it? I said something bitchy ealier but truth is I would prob go if the situation was right. It goes both ways but that is a great money opprotunity for you. Have a great trip.

[wildrokproductions]

wow, theres a statement that could fuck up a wet dream :chucks:

[Firekist]

http://www.glasspipes.org/Images/FullSize/000013000/Img13430_Dcp02200.jpg
who's virginia?

yeah, happy harold has gone overseas. pm ross at abr, i don't know if he reads anything here.. i don't know if he's gone, but he'd prolly be able to say something.

um.. make sure you let them know how cool bubbly crayons are here in the states, how wonky holes are the new round holes, and halfway melted in frit is the newest in smoke filtration devices.

hope you don't get shanghaied

z--seth

[seadal]

Hey Seth thanks for bringing up some almost 4 year old pics. The only thing I will be teaching are ciggerette holders. No pipes. Just surface and insideout work, pretty simple stuff. Sorry if that bothers anyone I am just going to see the world, how could I say no. They use Herbies with American clear and American color, no 12 year olds all professional. 75% of the production work that comes out of his studios goes to the European market.

[brettodie]

have fun man enjoy your trip. still enjoying your tools after all these years. :) peace brett

[skip]

He'll get laughed out of the sweatshop with shit work llike that.

[JANKYglass]

I am kinda surprised that you would tell people here that you are going over seas to ruin everybodys job. hmmmm It's a great opprotunity for sure, but in the long run will it be worth it?

why not? people are always talking about there foreign cars and thats ruining my job.SAME THING!!!!!!

[skip]

lol I heard you made janky cars compared to the Japanese.

[Meerkat]

um.. make sure you let them know how cool bubbly crayons are here in the states, how wonky holes are the new round holes, and halfway melted in frit is the newest in smoke filtration devices.

hope you don't get shanghaied

z--seth

Heh, I was thinking the exact same thing, sabotage from the inside ! Yeah man, americans really don't like carbs, your factory will save a lot of money by not wasting the time and gas on blowing them...

[Firekist]

dang seadal, i didn't even look at the dates! .. man, i wish i meant to do that.

i just went to what i thought might be your gallery.. and that's all that was there. if that's 4 years ago.. i'd love to see something new.

i just can't be so cleverly mean

anyway, like i said, ross and harold.

z===seth

[Swampy]

The only thing I will be teaching are ciggerette holders. No pipes. Just surface and insideout work, pretty simple stuff. Sorry if that bothers anyone I am just going to see the world, how could I say no.

I wish you every success and enjoyment in your travels.

Reading this thread, I wonder if the people I've invited to come to stay with us here in Belize and share ideas with, have declined because they have the same blinkered, Philistine pig ignorant attitude in the replies above?

I sincerely hope that isn't the case but what a great shame, if it is. For you and I.

[wildrokproductions]

It's all about AMERICAN handblown glass!!!! :spend:

[skip]

portfolio like a blonde getting out of a car


Yeah you don't have a pig ignorant attitude either lol...

[misled youth]

so i talked to a guy that own's a shop. he wants to pick up some of my stuff. cause his usual glass guy went to thailand to teach. i told him my opinion on that
and he replied " if he didnt go someone else would" the guy is getting 10k a month for 3 months.


BTW- the germans build better cars

[seadal]

Yup 10k a month sounds great. Looks like the US has its own glass curtain. Haters can suck on a douche nozzle.

[seadal]

Seth ans Skip I never said my work is great, I never implied it was. So why are you guys dogging me on my work. I have knowledge thay dont have, they want it. I am willing to travel half way around the world to show them some things and it will not cost me a penny. I look at it like a great vacation from 6 years of prodo work.

[David Sandidge]

If you think it'll be like a vacation, you may be in for a rude awakening. I've been all over Asia, in and out of a lot of factories. Usually the areas that you find these factories are not desireable vacation destinations. They are polluted, dirty and poor. The workers earn about 25 cents an hour. You'll find no airconditioning, little to no exhaust, possibly dirt floors, and you won't be able to communicate with the workers. Let me also mention that the bathrooms are typically disgusting and you'll have to get used to using the "squatty potty". Be carefull not to get any on ya.

All that having been said, it will certainly be a learning experience. You may earn great money. Your money will go a long way in Asia. Pretty and friendly women will throw themselves at you for a small price of coarse.

Finally, a bit of advice for you. Be careful! Many Asians will lie to you, they will rip you off, and they will take advantage. Do not be naive. They look for suckers like young westerners. Believe me. I've been there and done that.

You won't find many U.S. glassblowers that will like the idea of you going to Asia to teach. But if the opportunity was offerred to them, few would pass it up. If for ay other reason, the simple curiosity of seeing the world. Just remember, you may find yourself in the armpit of the earth.

[Conchis]

Last couple of years I spent quite a bit of time traveling throughout Vietnam. (not teaching)....I have to second alot of what David has to say. It's a beautiful place in many ways and totally alien to much of what you've probably been exposed to. Be very careful or you will be taken advantage of. Protect yourself and be sure to get immunized completely before your leave. Chinese enchalitis, all the hepatitis protection you can get...yellow fever..get it all. Good luck and enjoy. Glass is going to come from all over the world and your teaching isn't going to open the floodgates. We have a different style that you can't teach. When you get there you'll see.

[broken glass]

Traveling the world, and making a trip to a sweatshop are two different things. So, you arn't good enough to make 10 a month making pipes here in the us, so you go overseas for a few months to make that money, when they are done with you they will flush you down the toilet like a soiled tp.

Your money will be gone soon, and you won't be able to make any more, because all your product will be comming in dirt cheap GOOD ONE. Enjoy your vacation. and respectably FUCK YOU,

Many people make over ten a month here in the US with out selling out. Word is that ABR is partly responsible for reversal bubs now being made in china.

[Firekist]

hey seadal, i never knocked your work. i posted the link because it was basically the only one to your gallery, and like i said "who's virginia?"who IS virginia? i wanted to know if there was a story behind having that number in the picture or not, that's all.

my comments about bubbly colors and other aspects of whack glass was exactly what meerkat picked up;"sabatoge from the inside." i, in no way, was saying you do that kinda work.

now, if you're going over there to "mainly teach color skills".. and later you say "The only thing I will be teaching are ciggerette holders." that's when i look at your post and start wondering what the deal is. color skills for cigarette holders? sounds weird to me. but, i don't care.

and i DID mean it when i said "don't get shanghaied". i AM looking out for you. the posts that followed mine from people that have been to where you're going just confirm my concerns. i'm not saying don't go. i'm not saying be a paranoid freak. i'm saying, be careful over there! especially since you make it sound like you're going alone!

i'm glad you're getting 10k a month, that's a good paycheck.

Swampy, i don't think anyone on this board has a problem with any independent, or somewhat independent glass artist no matter where they are located.
people on this board have a problem with sweatshops, shitty conditions, the proliferation of asstastic glass, and the overall decline in their take home pay.

z---seth

[Cosmo]

A friend of mine taught in Japan last year, and is supposed to go back soon. He mentioned that he was at a show and someone from a Japanese gallery found his work and arranged to have him come.

He said it was well worth the trip, and that he would do it again in a heartbeat.

Granted, what he was doing was more "art" related than what some people do when they go overseas to pipe shops and stuff like that. I don't think there were any sweatshops involved here. I think he has stuff on his site about it - www.tiemeyerglass.com.

I hinted around to him last time that if he needed a teaching assistant I'd gladly go with him. He didn't take me up on the offer....

[Cosmo]

I wish you every success and enjoyment in your travels.

Reading this thread, I wonder if the people I've invited to come to stay with us here in Belize and share ideas with, have declined because they have the same blinkered, Philistine pig ignorant attitude in the replies above?

I sincerely hope that isn't the case but what a great shame, if it is. For you and I.

I fully intend to take you up on your offer. But with running two businesses and working 80 hours a week right now, it's going to be a little while until I have the free time to do it.

Plus, my girlfriend is a "city girl" through and through, so getting her to accompany me is a tough sell. Her idea of "roughing it" is a motel that doesn't have valet parking...

[Swampy]

Swampy, i don't think anyone on this board has a problem with any independent, or somewhat independent glass artist no matter where they are located.
people on this board have a problem with sweatshops, shitty conditions, the proliferation of asstastic glass, and the overall decline in their take home pay.

z---seth



Fair enough, thanks for clarifying that Seth I appreciate where you're coming from.

Because I'm retired and just do this for fun I assume other people share my attitude, where I don't have to keep 'secrets' close to my chest.

This is a part of my philosophy I'd like to share with you, please bare with me;

'When I teach and share a technique with you, I have no secrets. It gives me the greatest satisfaction to know that what you will create or make from what you have learned will be better and greater than what I could ever dream of.

For someone to assume they own a particular technique is the materialistic mentality of a corporation and simply the product of greed and avarice, at the very least the sign of an amateur artistic temprament.'

In the meantime I fully respect your (ALL of you's) position and motivation, I've been there and done that and come out the other side. When you come out the other side I hope your philosophy might sound something similar to mine, but if not I'm sure it will be colourful and interesting anyway :-)

[newmexicomagma]

to me japan and other asian states are totally different. i know lewis wilson teaches in japan and so does eskuche. and we all know they arent making any pipes. im glad to hear u got a offer like that man and i also want to travel the world. on the other hand i have been pissed off for a while about import glass and it ust keeps getting better. wh? no offense but because of people like u that r going over there and teaching them everything we know so they can undercut us. tell me this if a guy offered u 5000 dollars to teach him what u do knowing that when u r done teaching him he is going to sell everything u have been making a living off of and he will sell it for 10 times cheaper than u would u still teach him? i doubt t just think of the long term effects of doing this. and i didnt know abr had something to do with the chinese wig wags ive been seeing. if thats the case im gonna boycott abr how could a supplier do that to their customer base? awwww what a sore subject pretty soon u.s. pipemakers r going to be out of a job if this continues. its ridiculous. and hey swampy maybe this fall i might have some time to go down to belize. that would be fantastically sweet, u close to the beach?

[misled youth]

i am prolly gonna piss alot of peeps off with this one!!!
i do not condone the idea of him killing the market any more then it already is!
but he is gonna do what he is gonna do. any of you have kids? would you not do whatever you had to do to put the food on the table? self preservation is a natural instinct.
how many of you from oregon, washington, nocal? how many glassblowers do you know?

here is where people are gonna get pissy,
few years ago i went west for a month. i met ALOT of spoon makers. they were unable to to make much more then prodo. they sold them cheap cause they wanted to live the artist lifestyle.
one group in particular all learned from the same guy. they paid 200$ per day of lessons. they had a bunch of friends come over and i watched them show there friends some of the ropes. cause everyone thinks it is cool.
so 5 kids each teach 5 kids, then those 25 show there friends
next thing ya know the market is? i told them kids what my prices are and they were jealous, they were also jealous that i could move as much glass as i could. however they destroyed there own market.

i sold everything i brought with me, however the shops didnt like my prices, but the work was different so they bought it anyways.
the point being, he shouldnt go teach peeps from other places. but people here in the states should quit teaching there friends if there worried about there market.

sweatshop glass has gotten way better over the years, just the same as any one else's glass has gotten better over the years. it is gonna happen no matter what. sweatshop glass is gonna keep getting better no matter what, the same goes with everyone else.

point is people in america helped destroy there own market, how many of youj are those people?


on a lighter note china owns all our gold, so were doomed anyways!!!

[broken glass]

Japan is whole different ball game, they appreciate the fine crafts there, look at the care they take to make their food look good. I had a japanese dood make me a security gate for my shop, he had a very strong accent, couldn't have lived here for too long, when he saw what i was doing he was in awe, and as he left he kept bowing in respect.

But vietnam and thailand.............

Teaching to conosuers of the arts, VS, teaching to sweatshop labor...........
one will get you respect, and more long term $$$, the other will get you NO respect, and short term $$$

[mer]

on the other hand i have been pissed off for a while about import glass and it ust keeps getting better.

i'm sure that was a typo and you meant to type the word "just" but what a freudian slip. laughing my ass off at that one.
peace, m

[misled youth]

LOL @ mer good eye

[newmexicomagma]

lol ust hasnt pissed me off yet. i have actually been using there glass for my prodo. i like it but found out there prices went up bum deal i tell ya, looks like its schott artistic for me now better glass anywyas.

[Groundjoints.com]

Hey I resemble that remark. UST has gotten a little better and we still sell plenty of it. I wasnt aware of a price increase. As far as teaching color techinques to Asian countries, I say booo.

.02

Adam

[JANKYglass]

BTW- the germans build better cars

better check your info,in the last few years the germans have slipped and are rated far below american cars which in recent years have almost caught up with the asians.

[David Sandidge]

America has sold itself out a long time ago. We like inexpensive goods and we like big pay checks. In this country, nothing can be produced at low cost. Look at the auto industry for instance. Labor unions blew it. Tell me why do people shop at Walmart? Cheap merchandise.
I believe that a businessman has a right to make a profit. As much of a profit as the market can bear. I also believe in competition. A businessman has the right to try and keep his prices as low as possible in order to gain market share.
These are the economic principles that have raised our standard of living and made America the largest economy in the world.
Why would you believe that China or any other place on earth shouldn't have those same rights?
Don't blame the guy that goes abroad to take advantage of an economic situation that our government and our labor unions have created. If you snooze you loose. That's basic business. We don't have a choice anymore. The economy is global like it or not.
Change economic policy at the governmental level. Become more protectionist if you think that'll help you. Until that happens, you guys that cry about the Chinese don't really understand business.
The Chinese workers are making more money than ever before. They are buying cars and homes at a rate never before seen in the history of the world. They are also begining to see that they have to compete with lesser economies such as Vietnam. At some point their pipemakers will be crying the same blues as many of you are.
The reality is that in order to stay ahead in this world, it is necessary to innovate and be smarter than the rest. It's dog-eat-dog out there.
How many of you are using the nice colored boro tube and rod that's coming out of China? It's nice and it's cheap. If you only knew how cheap you'd be pissed off at the glass distributors in this country that are selling it. Do you know how much profit they're making? I say more power to them.
You guys ought to stop pissing and moaning and move on. Get your heads out of the sand.

[seadal]

NO SWEATSHOPS professional studios.....


EVOLVE OR DISSOLVE

[phab]

NO SWEATSHOPS professional studios.....


EVOLVE OR DISSOLVE

....better dead than RED

[misled youth]

i dig me some asian girls!!!

Dan, i have owned many different makes of cars over the years. none better then my volkswagon.
you can show me stats, or tell em whatever but that is my opinion.
some day i'll own a porsche

if i imported some of these asian pipemakers, taught them the skillz would i be a bad guy?
the glass quality would be american, i would be giving some peeps a better life. and i would be making more money. however they would still be asian.
so is that wrong?

[Mr. Wonka]

Contrary to what people say all the time, third world pipe production has absolutely NOTHING to do with the sweat shop conditions. It amazes me how everyone is suddenly a humanitarian when it comes to cheap pipes.

If it was just about the sweatshops and the deep concern for people who work there, why did everyone hate The Crush just as much when they were around? They provided a good living to AMERICAN pipe makers. Yes they sold stuff for cheap, but they ordered massive quantities and kept the money flowing in to the pockets of Americans. They were hated as much as China and India for their impact on the pipe industry.

Again, it’s not about the children, it’s about the end of fast cash… and nothing sells faster or easier than glass pipes. Also, it’s unfair to bust on someone who is teaching overseas. Isn’t it discriminatory to say that Japan is OK, but China’s not? Oh, that’s right… Japan is only after the bead and fine art market, which doesn’t affect any pipe makers.

Aren’t these double standards?

[David Sandidge]

....better dead than RED

tell that to a billion Chinese

[newmexicomagma]

---waves white flag----- great points guys and that is killer money i was thinking about it and i think we will always make nicer stuff and i gues that is the thing to be most proud of. how many of the overseas pipemakers actually really care for the product they r making? so guess in the end the artist that truly care and admire their craft will make a better quality and more lasting piece. glass can be forever and when im gone i think it will stillbe neatthat somewhere there is something i made out there that willnever die. i hope the conditions are better than some r saying for where u r teaching at. have a good time and dont bring back some weird jungle disease that we cant fight off.

[newmexicomagma]

and and just teach them like inside w/r and stuff lol. j/k they r people too if they care theyll figure it out. what we should do is just go open a bunch of shops over seas and import american glass. any takers?

[phab]

tell that to a billion Chinese

...the chinese are our buddies. we're borrowing a billion dollars a day from them to keep the war in iraq going. we've already been sold out by the bush administration in that way. they send the dea out to bust headshops and pipe makers while they let in conex loads of glass from outside the country.

ive already seen some real nice home made prodo posted here that guys are getting "14 to 17" dollars for that you can get where i live for 10 bucks if you go to the right smoke shop.

mostly i hope sedal has a good time and a safe trip. what he does over there isint going to change anything for me.

[ACE]

hahaha! yeah who is virginia?? now that we all have her phone # i guess we could call and ask her...

[Kool]

... why did everyone hate The Crush just as much when they were around?...

They are at it again.

[puddletown]

not to mention...

This guy isnt the first guy to go overseas and teach. Who was? Anyone know? I know an early one, but outta respect I shouldnt say.
Yeah I think its fucked up, but what are you gonna do?
He's American, and we are all about the fast cash.
3 months? $30,000 not bad.

[HumanLathe]

IMO Asians Have a very Creative culture and If I were offered to go I would teach all I could for the right price. But of course I believe that you get back what you put out. I also believe in the sharing of all knowledge in glass for a further inspiration down the road. I think if you maybe let go a little you will see that you will recieve a little more often.

[jello]

IMO Asians Have a very Creative culture and If I were offered to go I would teach all I could for the right price. But of course I believe that you get back what you put out. I also believe in the sharing of all knowledge in glass for a further inspiration down the road. I think if you maybe let go a little you will see that you will recieve a little more often.



Well said......

[skip]

There are plenty of charitable causes you could teach for no doubt. Teaching pipemaking in a 3rd world country to sweatshop labor for profit is hardly charitable.

[PyroChixRock]

IMO Asians Have a very Creative culture and If I were offered to go I would teach all I could for the right price. But of course I believe that you get back what you put out. I also believe in the sharing of all knowledge in glass for a further inspiration down the road. I think if you maybe let go a little you will see that you will recieve a little more often.

and in some cases it's not the right situation. we have also turned down offers to teach overseas.

[lsw]

As much as I would like to share my knowledge with others. I couldnt go over seas. I was offered 10k to go to Jordan to teach, but I would rather not, than come home to not be able to sell my production work. Selling heady's is nice but fetches alot less for me than my production line.

[ech]

So the dudes gonna go 12500 miles into a communist country that is filled with people that hate Americans to teach them "how to use color". What will stop these people from forcing him to teach them everything they want to know at gun point? How does he even know other than to take their word for it that he won't be at a sweatshop? What will stop them from just killing the guy and burrying him behind the sweatshop instead of giving him $30000? My question is why can't they just send one of their guys here to take Henry's color class, why would they spend 5 times as much as it would to send someone here to learn? It sounds too good to be true, and it probably is.
I wouldn't be surprised if the guy gets royally screwed if not killed.

The fact is that this is selfish and short sighted. It will hurt us all. If they want to do what we do then they should be able to figure it out for alot less than $30000.

[jusbag]

paranoia?

[HumanLathe]

So the dudes gonna go 12500 miles into a communist country that is filled with people that hate Americans to teach them "how to use color". What will stop these people from forcing him to teach them everything they want to know at gun point? How does he even know other than to take their word for it that he won't be at a sweatshop? What will stop them from just killing the guy and burrying him behind the sweatshop instead of giving him $30000? My question is why can't they just send one of their guys here to take Henry's color class, why would they spend 5 times as much as it would to send someone here to learn? It sounds too good to be true, and it probably is.
I wouldn't be surprised if the guy gets royally screwed if not killed.

The fact is that this is selfish and short sighted. It will hurt us all. If they want to do what we do then they should be able to figure it out for alot less than $30000.

I think your being a stereo type racist, there are other poeple that run legal business's other than US citizes. you meed to stop watching so m,uch tv and news you are freaking paranoid!

[ech]

More like reality. Go ahead and research how often a person goes over seas to do business with people in thirdworld, America Hating countries, and they get ripped off and or killed by the people who they are there to do business with. It happens everyday.

[ech]

I think your being a stereo type racist, there are other poeple that run legal business's other than US citizes. you meed to stop watching so m,uch tv and news you are freaking paranoid!

Well then how come you don't go Matt?

[HumanLathe]

I have a fmamly I think it would be just wrong to leave them for 3 months don't you. I tell you though if I got offers to teach in another country I would soo think about how to make it work. And I get paid first on anything I'd do like that so either way I would be paid before I set foot on a plane!

[HumanLathe]

I can talk with an english acsent[sp?] so I can pull off not being from America maybe..lol OK.. if anything I am from Canada if traveling out of the country.

[HumanLathe]

There are plenty of charitable causes you could teach for no doubt. Teaching pipemaking in a 3rd world country to sweatshop labor for profit is hardly charitable.

Agreed but this was "color techs". As far as I know it sounded like "learn how to make color sectionals", that isn't pipe crap that is prep work.

[ech]

And I get paid first on anything I'd do like that so either way I would be paid before I set foot on a plane!

In this case I would say that is thoroughly advisable. Maybe I'm paranoid, but everything I said could happen and you are dealing with a country where 30 years ago we killed 444000 NVA and VC, killed 587000 civilians and wounded another 935000.
We accomplished this by dropping 6,727,084 TONS of bombs on them and dumping 19,000,000 gallons of Agent Orange on them, the effects of which will be seen for at least 100 years. I don't blame the Vietnamese for hating Americans and they do hate us. I don't think that oppinion makes me a racist.

[Swampy]

Open invitation


Weeeeell,

as I said before, if you folks feel the need to take a break from all that crap, we are here whenever you are ready okay.

We can put you and a partner up for a week, while you chill and soak up a whole different culture. Take some time to consider what's important in your life :-)

Let us know okay, ready when you are...

[HumanLathe]

I said you are being a stereotypical racist and anyone can look info like that up on the net like you did. we also dropped a A bomB on Japan and we do more buiz with them than probably any other country, WTF is your point... Oh! I know your paranoid!!

[HumanLathe]

I ready where is the plane ticket and the loot for classes? I am all bout getting out there and seeing the world but I have kids so I have to plan around them and whom ever I can find to watch them. I want to travel and I want to teach so I will go where I am wanted.

[mer]

damn ech, you're sounding more like your old mckinney persona today. what happened to all that love you been spreading around? if you get worked up about every contaversial thread around here you're gona have a nervous breakdown.

take it easy, m

[HumanLathe]

I don't know the though that pic kind of makes you look like a Cartel Boss or something..lol

[ech]

Whatever I'm not getting worked up about it. Those are my opinions and I'm sticking to em. I don't like the whole idea of teaching people in some other place how to do something that I do for a living so that they can undercut me by %1000. And I Actually didn't get those figures off the net I got it from the printed version of "Vietnam: The Ten Thousand Day War." And my point is that suckers go overseas to do business with people in places like Asia, Africa, South America, Eastern Europe and get ripped off, kidnapped, and otherwise harmed all the time. There are unscrupulous people in every culture. My point is that the deal sounds sketchy, too good to be true. Maybe I am paranoid but I wouldn't trust a deal like that even if I could bring myself go over there and screw my fellow American lampworkers. I'm not upset, those are just my opinions they may be right they may be wrong I'm as entitled to them as everone else is to thiers.

:shifty:By the way who is Mckinney?:shifty:

[mer]

:shifty:By the way who is Mckinney?:shifty:

silly rabbit.... well, you know the rest.
peace, m

[HumanLathe]

Whatever I'm not getting worked up about it. Those are my opinions and I'm sticking to em. I don't like the whole idea of teaching people in some other place how to do something that I do for a living so that they can undercut me by %1000. And I Actually didn't get those figures off the net I got it from the printed version of "Vietnam: The Ten Thousand Day War." And my point is that suckers go overseas to do business with people in places like Asia, Africa, South America, Eastern Europe and get ripped off, kidnapped, and otherwise harmed all the time. There are unscrupulous people in every culture. My point is that the deal sounds sketchy, too good to be true. Maybe I am paranoid but I wouldn't trust a deal like that even if I could bring myself go over there and screw my fellow American lampworkers. I'm not upset, those are just my opinions they may be right they may be wrong I'm as entitled to them as everone else is to thiers.

:shifty:By the way who is Mckinney?:shifty:

Ok IMO people coming from other countries saying the same things about coming to America. You think people don't vanish here in the states? Do you think there isn't hidden slave labor here in America, oh never mind thats right we dont bother hiding it, we just rip you off right in front of your face. In America people shoot you for your tennis shoes or because your white in a black ghetto/black in a white ghetto. At least you don't get shot for the clothes you wear. We steal things ideas all the time. What are you worried about anyway. Are you really worried about that shitty prodo getting as good as your glass, if so than I am sorry for you and you glass.

[Micah Evans]

funny, the sketchiest mutherfuckers I have ever met have been american glassblowers (not all, not even most but a they are around.) There is a big ol world out there, if the color companies can sell the color to these folks without a boycott from you then maybe you should reevaluate your gripe. there are people making low end craft everywhere worldwide, spend more time educating your market on the benefits of american glass. if there is no difference between your work and imports its time to spend a little more time behind the torch. Quality will always sell, imo.

go, travel, teach!!

[David Sandidge]

I've read many threads on this controversial subject and until now have pretty much kept my mouth shut. There are people on both sides of the fence here. I personally have gone back and forth with this. Let me talk a little about my experience and opinion.

Most of you don't know me and those of you that do don't know much about what I do. I began my career in glass a long time ago and quite differently than most of you. I don't make pipes, I have made some, but that's not what I do. I make figurines. High end and low end. I work with tube and rod, color and clear, lathe and freehand. Mostly lampwork but have done a little bit of offhand work as well. Even a bit of coldwork. There's not much in glass that I haven't dealt with to some extent. I started in glass in a factory at age 15. I did prodo, design work, and teaching in the factory for 15 years. After that I went to work at Disney for 12 years. I've purchased glass from all over the world. Mexico, France, Italy, Germany, Russia, Chek, Egypt, England, China, Vietnam, Tiawan, Japan, Tailand, and also many domestic American glass workers. The point I'm making is that I know the glass industry foreign and domestic.

Almost a year ago I was offered a job to teach glass, design merchandise and help manage a factory in China. This factory is owned by an American firm. All of their product is manufactured in China and sold at retail in stores throughout the U.S. I don't guess we are competing in any way with you pipe makers, but it is still the glass business never the less.

At first I was hesitant about taking the job. It was out of loyalty to my fellow glass blowers whom I had seen loosing their jobs left and right to cheaper labor out of all of these other countries. China being one of the last countries to start in with the glass. At first it was the Mexicans then it was eastern European countries. And finally Asia. The industry just kept on looking for cheaper labor. The reason for this is not greed, it is simple the need to sell product at a profit. Americans want cheap goods.

It comes down to the fact that you can't fight global economics. You have no choice if you want to survive in this world. But what you can do is insist on fair labor standards and practices. Which to me means you need to provide a clean, healthy work environment, you must meet the local fair wage levels, and you must produce a quality product. This is what we do in our factory.

Economic protectionism, which some of you would advocate, would actually hurt this country. If you look at the big picture, that is what would stiffle ingenuity and creativity. These third world countries such as China are great copycats but they are not so good at being on the cutting edge which is what is the greatest asset that we Americans have.

As I have said in a previous post, China will deal with increases in wages and the overall cost of doing business in due time as have all of these other countries. It's just the natural cycle. Then labor will move somewhere else. What's happening is a global rise in the standard of living. These laborers are simply doing meanial production like many of you are and let's face it folks, pipe making isn't rocket science. It's easy and material costs especially in developing counties are low. We have already started some talk about moving our factory. Our cost of doing business just keeps going up.

As for myself, I've decided that pissing and moaning and crying about something that I have absolutly no contol over anyway would do me no good. I can make the best of this situation. Believe me, I don't like to make that trip to China 6 times a year. Florida is a much nicer place to be. It has nothing to do with seeing the world. I've seen it and I know that the place to be ain't in these parts of Asia that make glass. I'm not only in it for the money although that is a real nice perk, but I also like to teach and design. I just can't do that in this country anymore. That's just how it is and I'm thankful to have gotten this opportunity.

I know that there are many of you that disagree on me with this. I would just say that every man has a right to pursue that which makes him happy and prosperous. And those that continue to hold on to the past in an industry that is bound to change are destined to falter.

[skip]

Mc Kinney lol

That's you ech?

[ech]

Ok IMO people coming from other countries saying the same things about coming to America. You think people don't vanish here in the states? Do you think there isn't hidden slave labor here in America, oh never mind thats right we dont bother hiding it, we just rip you off right in front of your face. In America people shoot you for your tennis shoes or because your white in a black ghetto/black in a white ghetto. At least you don't get shot for the clothes you wear. We steal things ideas all the time. What are you worried about anyway. Are you really worried about that shitty prodo getting as good as your glass, if so than I am sorry for you and you glass.

Your right America is a violent oppresive place. You can't live on $2 a day here either. Look I don't want to start shit so I'm not saying anymore on this thread. I've said what I have to say and I know there are plenty of people who agree.

[ACE]

i have mixed feelings on this..

anyone seen glass india??

mofos throwing molten 3/4 gathers over peoples heads so that 12 year olds without shoes 15 feet away can catch it....
people chopping cullet w/o shoes or resperators.....in fact, no resperators in ANY color making factories OR the production factories.... even some prego women making color into frit all day w/o resporators...

the only thing thats lampworked are the bangles, the rest in all furnace glass, but it's still a movie worth watching...

[misled youth]

i have heard many peeps here say they make 60$ an hour, or that is what there worth.
i know i make 60$ an hour, and i love it.

we all have some cush ass jobs, i know i do. i have a friend that owns a construction biz. i work for him on and off over the years. when i work for him i get paid 25$ that is alot less then i make for pipes.
my point being i think alot of peeps making pipes these days are greedy
why is pipe making worth moe then house building?
yes i know there are alot of peeps that make more then 25$ an hour doing the trades i am just using that as an example.
i spent some time away, along time ago for SELLING DRUGS. i made a hella lot more slangin then i did blowing glass. did i deserve to make that much?

i know my wares are better then the sweatshop shit and always will be. i have good clients and a great market. no matter what someone goes overseas and teaches them i will always be better then them at what i do. the reason is EXPIERENCE.
who owns a dvd player? make?
car?
tv?
microwave?
why is it that peeps gonna only bring up the american pipe market? cause thats where they make there money.


p.s. who cares who virginia is, the thing we should be asking is if she is hot!!!

[David Sandidge]

i think alot of peeps making pipes these days are greedy
why is pipe making worth moe then house building?

Business is business. there's nothing greedy about this. It's a free market. Whether you are making $60 an hour or $2 a day. It's all market driven.

I know some Chinese glass workers that kick ass. They make more money than the average glass worker. It's all relative no matter where you are.

[ShttrdSpctrm]

i dont like the fact that imports are taking over the prodo shelfs here in Merica, but like others have said, what can you do its a free market you cant stop it, alls you can do is educate your customers on merican glass vs TiaChiJapCrap. i make alot of prodo spoons, and they pay the bills. I hate doin prodo spoons but thats where i make 60 an hour, When I start to learn some new tech, thats when i make $2 a day, lol. So wherever you are people are gonna get better at whatever they do, if they dont they stay stagnent and fall behind and get lost. Stay ahead and keep evolving your style. If alls you can make is spoons nad all you wanna make is spoons for a livin, more power to ya, your gonna need it.

[skip]

People may CHARGE $60 an hour but that is not MAKING $60 an hour.

Now if you are charging $80 an hour ( or so) then yes you could be roughly making $60.

I hear this all the time from people and it just doesn't make any sense. I guess I am just business minded.

[petto]

I try to make $60 of prodo per hour. I don't get $60 per hour after overhead.

[misled youth]

i figure in my overhead on the 60$ an hour.

but even for the peeps that dont and actually make 40$ an hour it is still a damn fine job profit right?

i charge alot less for custom heady stuff. i roll that at 25$ and hour nd i deal with the matieral costs. so i make about 20$. but i like doing nice stuff and dont mind the wage loss, as it helps me with my sanity.

[skip]

WHere you at Misled?

On the west coast One would have a hard time selling any glass at that rate ($60 an hour profit). At least a steady volume of it. The days of $60 an hour on wholesale are pretty much history in these parts.

[LewisW]

I did a 90 minute demo in Japan a year and a half ago in Kobe at the lampworking Festa. 500 Japanese lampworkers and 17 Americans and also a few from Taiwan, and two great lampworkers from China.
I was totally impressed with the high quality of work from all places in Asia. The two guys from China were equal to Townsend or the " best ' American out there.
Too many Americans think that we are the best and have the most to loose if someone leaves here and teaches anywhere in what some may think is a third world country. It is just bullshit and the ones that scream and complain the most are the ones that are not confident enough in themselves that they can make something new or unique. You must continue to grow, evolve or find a new slant on something.
Lampworking has been around in Asia for many centuries.
Here is the jist of a conversation I had with Robin Mickelsen . We were talking with a third lampworker and he was all upset that I was going to be teaching some one how to do simple sculptures . This third lampworker did simple things and sold a malls in Florida.
Basically , the third guy said that if I started teaching , then there would be just too many people working glass for the same dollar and we all would go broke. He thought that the market would get saturated and there would be a lampworker in every town.
This was in Indiatlantic , Florida , in 1977. Allan Promades was the student. I was 28 and he was 13. I got $300 for five two-hour lessons.
The guy that complained was pretty much a nobody and still is
So now there are many lampworkers in many towns.
So what if some one teaches abroad. Good for them. They have been asked to teach something that someone wants to learn. If this passing on of knowledge is a bad thing, then every one here that is not self taught should just shut up. They were taught by some one. Or they saw something in a magazine or on a web site. They, in theory, are the peasant in the third world.
American lampworkers do not own the techniques. Some are just more vocal about not letting non-American learn them. And shit hits the fan if an American goes to a third world country and teaches. Why is no one upset if someone teaches in Germany , or Italy.
David Sandidge has been posting on here for a while now. i have known him for a few years. What he says is true. But few here may not know just who David is or what he has made for many years.
David was the main sculptor for Disney for many years. He also had a lot to do with getting glass for Disney from around the world.
David is pretty much a technical machine. Working very large rod for long hours within millimeters on designs going up to 1 1/2 to 2 feet tall. Any major Walt Disney sculpture piece that was presented to a retiring vice pres of Disney was made by David. all the great showpieces in the Disney Galleries. Many pieces selling or well over $5,000. David would be given a plastacine sculpture made by Disney sculptures, and then he recreated it is glass from very large rod.
When he says that he has seen great glass all over Asia, well, he has.
David-do you have a pic of something that might show the scale of your work?
I have seen these posts many times about people all upset that the imports are killing them. You just need to put your time in on the torch and make something that is you.
Also- it could be a sad fact, that you really like working glass, but are not destined to be that competative to where you can survive in a world market.
People all over the world do not even need to have any one from America , or any where, come and teach them.
All they need is a computer and they have access to all kinds of tutorials on all kinds of glass working techniques.So I guess those that are moaning and complaining need to put an end to that too. Then, Pilchuck and Penland and Eugene Glass School should be shut down , because they could be teaching some one that may come from Burma, or Vietnam or China.
Then a law should be passed so that no one should teach unless they are a family member.There should be an end to all teaching and this should be called the glass ceiling.
Welcome to 1930.
The glass ceiling has been killed. It does not need to be rebuilt.
When I went to Japan I did not give away techniques. I found two collectors that bought my work and have bought from me again.

[misled youth]

skip, i am in wisco

lewis, well said!!!

it doesent make me happy that imports are so cheap as it drives the market for all glass down.
however i make damn good money and damn fine products.
if i end up not being able to make pipes one day i will be alright with it.
i have gotten alot out of it. pipes has paid for my house, car, shop, all my toys and a whole lot more.
it took alot of practice and patience to get where i have gotten. i have lost everything once before. i learned a new way of life that was still lucrative.
if glass pipes goes belly up i will figure out something else to do.

awhile back i was looking at a CAD faceter, imagine that!!!

[David Sandidge]

Thanks for your support Lewis. I'm glad to have you as an allie in this discussion.

There's a link to my website in the signature section of my posts for any of you that are interested in seeing some of my work. There's not much on there that really represents what I do now. It's kind of a hodge podge of some things that I've played with. You will see a good bit of Disney stuff though. You will also continue to find some of my pieces at Disney as I am still doing some stuff for them here and there. My wife is working at Epcot demonstrating glass jewelry making.

Since I left Disney about a year ago I've pretty much kept a low profile. I know that there are many people that are threatened by China and I just didn't want to get into it. I've seen a lot of threads on this subject and never posted, but after seeing how this one was going I felt that I just had to chime in. This guy was offered what may be a great opportunity and I was reading posts from some people that were really bagging on him. I just don't think it's fair. As for me, I won't let these peoples oppinion stop me from going to China and teaching.

I've got a whole factory at my disposal and I intend to make the most of it. This place is extremely modern, clean, and pumps out a lot of good glass. They have the ability to make glass better than so much of what I've seen over here. You are right Lewis, Americans ought to get off of their high horse and realize that there are others in this world that can and will out do them in all things, not just glass.

America needs a reality check if they want to remain the leading economic and military power in this world. I don't think America will stay on top and it's precisely because of this "holier than thou" attitude. We need to get serious about innovating. Making simple pipes will be a lost cause.

I don't have anything against pipemaking. I'm simply stating that as American pipemakers start to see a decline in their ability to make a future for themselves, they ought to rethink their priorities and goals. I'm talking about reinventing themselves as all business people, companies, organizations, countries and everything else inevitably has to do eventually. If you wait until it's too late then you're screwed. All I can do is speak in generalities to you pipemakers because I'm not in the pipe business. You'll figure out what to do. Some of you will get out of the glass business, some of you will change your style and find a new niche for yourselves. But what you shouldn't do is bag on people that teach.

[Swampy]

David and Lewis; thank you for your input, it's most enlightening.

[skip]

Yeah no matter what the discussion or my opinion.

I have respect for both David and Lewis , Your passion for glass, your work, and your opinions. You guys are a benefit to the forum. Michelson as well.

[misled youth]

david- your gallery is amazing!!! big props

[wildrokproductions]

i agree totaly !! well said!!
lil know fact about me,
when i moved here to AR i met man from china who is a local art guru, his name is Long Xu Hai
one of his claims to fame is life size sculpting
he saw some of my work and opened my eyes to art i have never thought of, he held a quad in his hands , and as he pointed out what he saw it was like it magicly turned into this beutiful flower type of a fountain.
since then I've had the privilage of demoing at his art galery, not every day do you get to work in a place where everything there is priced in thousands or more. i made a tree-full of dicro christmas ornaments, and they all sold, and i was asked to come back again. the story goes on , but mainly just wanted to say that i too have found other things to make , still working on design's for some, but after the new shop is finished its back on . hopefully the beutiful spring here will help. the mnts. and lakes here are great for getting away, and dreaming of whats next
thank you Lewis and David,

[ech]

I know I said I wasn't going to perticipate in this thread anymore but I feel a need to say this. I have absolutely no problem with people in other countries knowing the same techniques as me and making production like mine. Its just that they don't play on an even feild. I looked up the average wage for a Vietnamese worker. http://www.business-in-asia.com/vietnam_workers.html
If I read it correctly it says that $63 a month is top dollar. The fact is that if I could open a production shop and pay my workers $63 a month to crank out quality production (and I see import I/O production all the time that is really well made, and really clean) then the whole thing would be fair. Instead their overhead is drastically lower than anyone in the U.S. could ever hope to operate on. Their pricing reflects that super low overhead and they basically undercut me and all the rest of my fellow American workers.

I am not surprised that lampworkers who are not dependent on working endless days of production are all for foreign companies coming here and undercutting the lowly production worker, after all you have nothing to lose becuase you don't depend on doing production. In short I don't care who made a peice as long as its being sold at a fair price. Foreigners especially Asians do not play fair, that is just a fact. Not long ago it was revealed that China was selling furniture and appliances in the U.S. at a loss just so they could corner the market and force U.S. companies out of business. I just don't see it as fair to say that I have to compete with a worker that can and will work for $63 dollars a month.

[newmexicomagma]

very well put lewis. and david your stuff is amazing. the last few days ive been thinking about it and your points r very valid. if they want to learn they will. and in a market like theres anyone that gives a crap will flourish. i am glad for the oportunity i have had learning and now think that i wouldnt mind showing others that r willing to learn. thanks in all to this forum and how much i have "learned" here.

[jokersdesign]

The world and life is not fair, never has been and never will be.

[ech]

Hey maybe I'm a dick but I also don't like it when I walk into some smokeshop and the owner tells me some guy from Oregon who was desperate for money rolled through and dumped a bunch of glass real cheap in my market. That pisses me off too.

[broken glass]

David sandidge i respect your craft, and you word your posts very eleqeuntly, but i strongly disagree with your business practices.

"Business is business" this seems to be your motto, so the fastest way to the most money, Yup it leads to cheap labor and it lead you to China. I see a lot of excuses as to why you feel the need to capitalize on cheap labor. The fact that we are in a global market, and that we are a capitalist country, does not make it right. And i know the world is not fair, but does that give you the right to exploit people as you do? Should we all strive to be Wallmart, because they seem to be on the same track as you.

I know of a couple of glassproducers, who go to india, to teach and set up shop, and the stories of working conditions they bring back from there disgust me. But they do make more product for less money, so "business is business" good for them, who cares about these indians, or chinese, or thai peoples, right Pimp those fuckers and make that $$. But in the end, I think you should factor in the money you earn against the hurt you cause, and if I were you I would not be so proud of your business.

[LewisW]

Ech said "
I am not surprised that lampworkers who are not dependent on working endless days of production are all for foreign companies coming here and undercutting the lowly production worker, after all you have nothing to lose becuase you don't depend on doing production."
I am not sure who this is aimed at. Certainly could not be me.I still do forty plus hours a week on the torch besides another twenty plus working the phones to put together my shows and events that actually give a venue for many American lampworkers to make a living.
You seem to have a problem with Vietnamese lampworkers. You should have a problem with the AMERICAN that is importing the work. iI you were more informed, you might do the paperwork and be the importer and make the profit from some dude working for $63 a month.
It is easy to complain and say some guy half a world away is making your life so hard and undercutting your sales. It is hard to say that maybe some one need to get a product that can compete in a world market.
Lewis C Wilson- done production for over 34 years.

[brettodie]

ive got ten years in on prodo work been great made me what i am. this is no differnt then 10 yrs ago when everyone was spreading pipemaking like wild fire. you have to step up and improve your game or your going to get left behind your choice. were in a global economy weather you like it or not. i see a ton of nice import prodo, i also see american guys making their pieces for dirt cheap. theres been downward pressure on this market since it started. people are up in arms about this how many of you drive american cars? buy a american made electronics device of any sort? i grew up in flint michigan you dont have to tell me about americans losing jobs ive watched a city disappear into despair. its time for americans to wake up and realize we're not where we were 30 yrs ago. we have to take the next step and push into the future rather then say we deserve something cause thats what our parents had. the jobs our parents had wont keep us or our kids middle class. its our choice as individuals and a country weather we stay on top or cry our way to the bottom. peace brett

[broken glass]

just stirring the pot, I didn't have anything good to say so i erased it.

[misled youth]

Hey maybe I'm a dick but I also don't like it when I walk into some smokeshop and the owner tells me some guy from Oregon who was desperate for money rolled through and dumped a bunch of glass real cheap in my market. That pisses me off too.


i agree with that!!!


whom are you referring to when you say "YOU"?

i bust my ass 50-80 hours a week on prodo

[misled youth]

broken glass- so do your students pay or are they contract obligated?

[David Sandidge]

I too have done more than my share of production. I've been at this for 28 years. I don't own the company I work for either. I'm paid a wage that is fair for the work that I do, just as the workers in the factory (I can only speak for where I work) are paid a fair wage for what they do.

As I have said, It's all relative. If you went to China, you would be amazed at the growth. The middle class is growing faster than anywhere in history. Many of our workers drive their cars to work, then go home to their own apartments. These are people that have come out of the countryside where absolutely no jobs are available. They can now live a better life and they can send money home to their families.

You are talking about low wages based on an American perspective. Do you have any idea how cheap their cost of living is? We are not exploiting our workers in the way that you suggest. If you call making a profit evil, then you must call any company, be them in China or America evil if they practice creating jobs for the purpose of producing a product and selling at a profit.

I do not work in a sweat shop. I do not mistreat the employees. These people are happy to work. They are happy to have an opportunity to live a better life. Isn't that what we all would like to do. If you think I'm getting rich, you might think again.

Broken Glass, I'm not causing any hurt to anyone. You have no right to say that. You are ignorant of the industry that I'm in. Labor costs in the U.S. have risen to a level that it is no longer profitable to produce glass figurines. That is not my fault. It is not my fault that employment taxes are so high in this country. It is not my fault that Americans are not willing to pay more money for the product that I produce.

Ech talks about an even playing field. Who are you kidding? Life in America is so easy. You're right, there is nothing even about it.

I'm not saying that bad conditions don't exist. They used to exist in this country and in some cases I'm sure that they still do. We are thankful that is has gotten better here just as they are thankful that they are getting better there. I do my best to ensure the best conditions possible. I'd bet our factory is cleaner and more comfortable than your workshop.

1.) Capitalism works for everyone. Even for crybabies like some of you.
2.) Creating jobs and paying a fair wage and providing a clean work environment is not exploitation.
3.) The Chinese love Americans.
4.) The world is not fair, but I am and I am proud of that.

[jokersdesign]

The fact that we are in a global market, and that we are a capitalist country, does not make it right.



or make it wrong!

It sure doesn't feel right to me either, but the fact is, in a global economy it is not wrong and business is business.

it is what it is. sad but true, this is the new global world we now live in.

[jokersdesign]

I too have done more than my share of production. I've been at this for 28 years. I don't own the company I work for either. I'm paid a wage that is fair for the work that I do, just as the workers in the factory (I can only speak for where I work) are paid a fair wage for what they do.

As I have said, It's all relative. If you went to China, you would be amazed at the growth. The middle class is growing faster than anywhere in history. Many of our workers drive their cars to work, then go home to their own apartments. These are people that have come out of the countryside where absolutely no jobs are available. They can now live a better life and they can send money home to their families.

You are talking about low wages based on an American perspective. Do you have any idea how cheap their cost of living is? We are not exploiting our workers in the way that you suggest. If you call making a profit evil, then you must call any company, be them in China or America evil if they practice creating jobs for the purpose of producing a product and selling at a profit.

I do not work in a sweat shop. I do not mistreat the employees. These people are happy to work. They are happy to have an opportunity to live a better life. Isn't that what we all would like to do. If you think I'm getting rich, you might think again.

Broken Glass, I'm not causing any hurt to anyone. You have no right to say that. You are ignorant of the industry that I'm in. Labor costs in the U.S. have risen to a level that it is no longer profitable to produce glass figurines. That is not my fault. It is not my fault that employment taxes are so high in this country. It is not my fault that Americans are not willing to pay more money for the product that I produce.

Ech talks about an even playing field. Who are you kidding? Life in America is so easy. You're right, there is nothing even about it.

I'm not saying that bad conditions don't exist. They used to exist in this country and in some cases I'm sure that they still do. We are thankful that is has gotten better here just as they are thankful that they are getting better there. I do my best to ensure the best conditions possible. I'd bet our factory is cleaner and more comfortable than your workshop.

1.) Capitalism works for everyone. Even for crybabies like some of you.
2.) Creating jobs and paying a fair wage and providing a clean work environment is not exploitation.
3.) The Chinese love Americans.
4.) The world is not fair, but I am and I am proud of that.

right on, got any job opening?

[mer]

i don't want to take anything away from any of the viewpoints being expressed here, i can see truth in almost all of these arguments. i would just like to make an observation. for many people on this board production is a stepping stone to the art world. once we reach a level of proficiency where we can make pipes we have been given a sort of "financial aid package" where we can afford to continue blowing glass and support ourselves while we hone our craft. this is rare in a world where the common route to the art world is art school and generally takes alot of outside support from parents or the state.

i know that this bubble that shelters us is very fragile but i have an interest in preserving it for as long as possible because it is making my artistic growth possible. i don't care about the "glass curtain", let the knowledge flow forth. i just think that it is a sad situation for the people that would like to be able to find artistic legitimacy on the other side of a piper's carreer. it would really bum me out if the glass art world became as exclusive as the rest of the art world.

as for lewis's statement that some people just don't have what it takes to make it as artists in a world economy, this is also a tragedy. it makes me sad to think art has to be profitable to be successful. edgar allen poe just rolled over in his grave. i'm not saying that it's not true, it just breaks my heart that this perception exists.

i just want to die happy and leave something beautiful behind. money isn't a huge part of the plan. maybe i don't have what it takes. maybe i just need an agent. time will tell.

i'm glad that the big dogs are willing to share the benefit of their experience with us. please don't take my statements as disrespectful, i really don't mean it that way. it's just that statements like this;


1.) Capitalism works for everyone. Even for crybabies like some of you

can easilily be misconstrued as condescending. if your intent is to persuade others then i think that you undermine the power of your argument by getting personal.

peace, m

[Glacier_Arts_Studio]

Seth ans Skip I never said my work is great, I never implied it was. So why are you guys dogging me on my work. I have knowledge thay dont have, they want it. I am willing to travel half way around the world to show them some things and it will not cost me a penny. I look at it like a great vacation from 6 years of prodo work.

if it was offered to me and they throw in a cute Asian wife somewhere
in the deal, i would do 8 years of prodo...
but, my stuffs poop and the offers are not coming, as of yet...

Flame on...

enjoy life while alive...

here are
some quotes,

"I refuse to tiptoe quietly through life,
only to arrive safely at death." ~ ? ~

May the forces of evil
become confused on the way to your house. ~ George Carlin ~

Darkness can not drive out darkness only light can do that.
Hate can not drive out hate, only love can do that.
~ Martin Luther King ~

"I have found the paradox that if I love until it hurts,
then there is no more hurt, only love." ~ Mother Teresa ~

Many of life's failures are experienced by people who did not realize
how close they were to success when they gave up. - Thomas Edison


If you want to make an apple pie from scratch,
you must first create the universe. - Carl Sagan

Anakin says: "Let it burn!"

You are not in the body, the body is in you! The mind is in you!
They happen to you. They are there because you find them interesting.
- Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj


A family is a place where minds come in contact with one another.
If these minds love one another the home will be as beautiful as a
flower garden. But if these minds get out of harmony with one another
it is like a storm that plays havoc with the garden.
- Buddha

You are not in the body, the body is in you! The mind is in you!
They happen to you. They are there because you find them interesting.
- Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj

Be aware, the one who stands still, in his stillness finds God.
The man who runs after God never attains to him because
the running is of the mind, and that highest spiritual
element can never be obtained by the mind.
- Osho

"The Law of Attraction attracts to you everything you need,
according to the nature of your thoughts.
Your environment and financial condition are the perfect
reflection of your habitual thinking."
-- Joseph Murphy

and my two favorite quotes,

A Quote From Carlos Castaneda

"In the Universe, there is an Un-Measurable and Indescribable Force,
Which Those Who Live of The Source Call Intention...
And Absolutely Everything That Exists in The Entire Cosmos is
Attached to Intent by a Connecting Link...
Sorcerers (meaning those who live of the source) are
Not Only Concerned With Understanding and
Explaining That Connecting Link But,
They are Especially Concerned With Cleansing it of The Numbing Effects
Brought About by All of the Concerns of Living at
Ordinary Levels of Consciousness."


~ A Warrior ~

“The life of a warrior cannot possible be cold and lonely
and without feelings,” {don Genaro} said, “because it is
based on his affection, his devotion, his dedication to
his beloved. And who, you may ask, is his beloved?
I will show you now.” {he spins above the ground} . . .
“This is the predilection of two warriors,” {don Juan} said.
“This earth, this world. For a warrior there can be no
greater love . . . Only if one loves this earth with
unbending passion can one release one’s sadness,”
don Juan said. “A warrior is always joyful because his
love is unalterable and his beloved, the earth, embraces him
and bestows upon him inconceivable gifts.
The sadness belongs only to those who hate the very thing that
gives shelter to their beings.”
Don Juan again caressed the ground with tenderness.
“This lovely being, which is alive to the last recesses and
understands every feeling, soothed me, it cured me of my pains,
and finally when I had fully understood my love for it,
it taught me freedom.”




Love, Light, Peace and

All Blessings are this Life.

When You Accept Love, Love Is The Light Which,

Instantly Gives You Peace and,

Everything in Your Past, Your Present,

and Your Future, ALL Become Blessings...

have a grateful day...

I am Alien_Mike and I Approve this Message...

[David Sandidge]

I will concede that the cry babie comment may have gone a little too far and I will apologize for that. However, I also consider it a personal attack when it is implied that I am unfair, exploitive, greedy, and without integrity. These guys do not know me or how I operate well enough to imply such things.

My reputation is important to me. Therefore, before it gets ugly and with respect to everyone in this forum including those who disagree with me, perhaps it is wise that I should withdraw from this discussion at this point.

I thank those of you that have supported my arguements and I thank those of you on the other side for a lively debate.

David Sandidge

[mer]

before it gets ugly and with respect to everyone in this forum including those who disagree with me, perhaps it is wise that I should withdraw from this discussion at this point.David Sandidge

that is also very sad. many of the folks on this board are young and have not mastered the art of tactful disagreement. these issues are emotional for those looking toward the future. hopefully such emotional responses don't have to be the end of every important debate around here. with respect, patience and love we are all brought up to a higher level. without these qualities we lose an important opportunity to better ourselves.

[ech]

I am not sure who this is aimed at. Certainly could not be me..

Did it strike a nerve with you? We are talking about pipes and pipe makers here. Prodo pipes are Widgits. I wouldn't consider anything that comes off your bench a widgit.

Try to think about it in simple hypothetical terms like this: An industry exists in a certain country, we'll call this place country A, making a particular widgit. Many people in country A are making a living and supporting their families making that widgit. Then people in another country, we'll call country B, where the cost of living is much lower and wages are lower and thus overhead is lower start making those widgits and exporting them into country A . Country B begins undercutting the widgit makers in country A. Many widgit makers in country A are forced out of business and must seek work in another industry. Eventually as this happens in many industries the economy of country A begins weaken and everyone suffers, including the widgit makers in Country B because no one in Country A can afford their widgits anymore.

[LewisW]

This is not about pipes-that is what you want it to be about.
This is what Seadal said.

" The only thing I will be teaching are ciggerette holders. No pipes. Just surface and insideout work, pretty simple stuff."

This is just about glass. Do you think that pipes are the only item that is being imported that makes it harder for American lampworkers to make a living?
I have been promoting beads show now for twelve years. My Tucson Feb show has 124 lampworkers in it. Every week I get requests for companies to exhibit in my shows that are importing beads made in China. These are well made soft glass and boro beads and pendants. Strands of these imported beads sell for maybe $5 to $8 a strand with up to twenty beads per strand.That can make these beads sell for as low as 25 cents each.
HERE IS THE KICKER- these are copies of beads that Chinese wholesale buyers bought
the previous years from exhibitors in my show. They buy in large quantities so as not to look like they are just getting a single bead with the intent to duplicate. Many of these " sample" beads sell off the tables for $8 to $10 each. How can my exhibitors compete with the same bead selling for 25 cents.
I have also seen duplicates of Kevin O'Grady bracelets and pulled cane beads. There are many beads shows that just sell a space and do not give a shit about how they may hurt the other exhibitors in that same show.
You picked the wrong guy to dick with. I have been protecting lampworkers in my shows for many years from imports that want to sell in these same shows. Some one has to have the balls to stand up and say' I can not stop the imports, but I can stop them at my show" You need to understand that 30,000 buyers come through the show . I have had open, unsold booths in my fall show while at the same time companies that were wanting a space to sell Chinese beads. I chose not to sell out.
My actions are helping people on this board like Anikin, Rashon Jone, Andrew Brown , Sabina,. Also many who do not post here, like Marcel, Kevin, Delene Peralta, Jared DeLong, and Paul Stephan.
This is pretty much a small thing, but it is greatly appreciated by those that exhibit in the show and like what i do.
Marbles seem to be about the only for of glass work that is not now being sent over from China.
Do not talk to me about widgets. I understand marketing. I understand a world economy. I am actually in it. I sell DVDs in many countries. My distributors sell in even more.
I will be going back to Japan and teaching next October. In the same studio where Harold Cooney taught two years earlier.
This all comes down to supply and demand. But you must break down "supply" into it's components of what it is and at what cost. There is the problem. Low cost imports that are well made.
Be it beads or pipes, imports will happen.The only way to fight back is to be different or cheaper. Cheaper is hard to do with our wage system. That leaves different.
So it comes down to the whole weight of this problem being dropped on the shoulders of each person that works with glass. Some will carry the weight and some will be crushed.
There are many lampworkers in this country. There is no rule that says that if you choose to work in glass you will have a great life. This is about a passion that we have for glass and sometimes it is a well paying job and sometimes it is an expensive hobby. We all must decide what we will get out of it.
But it gives no one the right to say it is fucked up to go somewhere and teach surface and insideout work.

Lewis C Wilson

[misled youth]

damn glacier, thats alot of quotes!!!

david, ya aint gotta go. i am sure no one here can even blemish your rep.

[Mr. Wonka]

I have nothing against pipes whatsoever… I used to make them all the time, and still do on occasion. The thing that I can’t understand is why American pipe makers think that they are privileged and should be immune to low cost imports, when every other industry faces the same challenges?

None of us have a God given right to prosperity… it has to be earned through hard work, dedication, and innovation. If you’re complacent in what you do, then you have more than third world countries to worry about. Someone else is always willing to make something cheaper, better, etc., and that does not exclude a hard working American glass worker.

Once upon a time you could sell any piece of crap with a bowl and a carb… in some cases you still can. With a global market, you have to keep improving or get run over… it’s something that EVERY industry has faced in the past, and will continue to face in the future- it just took a little more time to catch up with the pipe market. Improvise, overcome, and adapt, or keep riding the wave until it crashes… then look for a “real job”.

Some of you are very proficient in glass working, but at the same time you’re admittedly lacking in business skills. If you do this for a living, then the business aspect of glass working is equally (if not more) important if you want to survive. Every industry deals with competition and adversity and makes the necessary adjustments to stay competitive… it’s time for you to do the same thing.

Big thanks to Lewis and David for taking the time to express their thoughts and experiences with us. David, I hope you change your mind and stay in this discussion… you have a lot of things to say that people need to hear.

[LewisW]

Just wanted to also post that I have made pipes. As far back as 1973 when I was starting in glass. And also the past few years. The early pipes were very simple. The ones a few years ago were very ornate with dragons smoking out of sherlocks, and other sculptural attachments.
Lewis C Wilson

[misled youth]

well typed!!! i think we pipers, need need you at the few shows we have!

[ech]

How have my posts been inflammatory or disrespectful??? Please qoute it and point it out to me? People have been out right insulting and disrespectful to me many times on this board and you have never said a word to them. What have I done or said that was so bad?

[marcel]

I'm not going to pass judgement on anyone in this thread. I (like some others in this thread) simply think the real issue is the global economy and it's (IMO) catastrophic shortcomings.

The world economy is set up in an intrinsically unfair way. Unfair to whom? How about our children who will have to breathe air polluted by not only industrial processes necessary to produce goods in the first place but also the vast amounts of energy required to transport them across the planet. Not to mention all the depleted uranium dust and other byproducts of the military industrial complex necessary to maintain "stability".

Globally speaking, you conserve huge amounts of energy by purchasing locally manufactured products. It takes the same amount of resource to sustain life in a given climate no matter what it's geopolitical situation. Globally, we are dealing with a limited amount of resource.

Why waste our environment schlepping cheap crap all around the world?

People get all het up about money and wages and sweatshops/not sweatshops, betterment of life and all the rest. The global economy allows a (not so select) few to point and click huge profits into their bank accounts, thanks to the hard work of the many.

This is a completely artificial situation. People are shaping the planet based on the pursuit of money...and money doesn't even actually exist except as markers on a piece of silicon! Money just measures supply as a function of demand. There is no measure of resource. Conservation has no value until there is a demand for conservation.

Chinese currency is tied to the dollar. That means that no matter how strong their economy gets their goods will still be cheap to us. If it was the Euro, goods would get expensive as economic conditions changed and consumers would naturally buy domestically, aiding our own economy and maintaining balance. When it comes to chinese goods, there is no balancing mechanism, no safety net.

One day we Americans will wake up as a wholly owned subsidiary of China Corp.

Glass pipes are not going to change the world. Neither will cars or DVD players.
Consciousness, created by each individuals' decisions, changes the world.

I too am thankful things have gotten better. I truly hope they continue to get better and reach a tipping point before it is too late.

:blowkiss:

[skip]

One mans profit is another mans loss.

[David Sandidge]

Okay guys. I can't stay away from this. I've still got more to say as long as this discussion doesn't get personal.

First I have to say that our company does not wholesale our products. Everything that we produce goes directly to retail. We operate over 180 stores selling our product seasonally in malls thoughout the country. We are not undercutting anybody's prices. We sell our product for the maximum retail dollar that the market can bare. Nobody should be offended by that. It's a perfectly fair business practice. Because the factory is also owned and operated by an American firm, all of the profits stay in this country. We have created jobs for over 200 otherwise poor Chinese workers and seasonally employ nearly 1200 Americans. This product simply cannot be produced in the U.S. and sold at a profit. Until I came on board with this company, the designs that we manufactured and sold have been industry standards for years. Any of you old time glass blowers will understand what I'm talking about. Remember the Glass Baron's legal fight over copyrights? Since I began, our designs are exclusive originals designed by me. I know that very soon my designs will begin to be knocked off by other companies. I've accepted that. I will continue to design new and innovative pieces that can be produced efficiently in China in order to overcome the inevitable competition for market share. This is what is necessary in order to stay ahead of the game. This is also why the company hired me. They know that I can do it.

I have been trying to make some of you understand what it takes to survive in this global competetive business. I understand this oh so well. My work has been knocked off for years. I also understand very well the rising cost of manufacturing be it in the U.S. or in China. At some point we will have to move our factory to a new area where costs are lower. Even in China things are getting more expensive. When this happens, I can assure you that the working conditions will be clean and safe and that the wages will be fair according to the local standard of living. Did you know that China has a minimum wage? They also have government inspectors checking conditions much like OSHA. Granted they are not as thorough as in the U.S. and some are very corrupt but they do exist and things continue to improve for the workers.

It was said that I exploit the Chinese workers. Not true. It was said that I'm causing harm. Not true. It was implied that perhaps I have a hard time sleeping at night. I guess this was an attack on my integrity. I sleep very well except when I'm dealing with jet lag. And it was said that I only care about making a quick buck at the expense of my fellow glass workers. Let me tell you that I've worked hard for every penny I've earned and have not taken one penny from any of you American glass workers.

Some of you guys, and you know who you are, ought to take some of what I'm trying to say here as a bit of sage advise. I won't use the word cry baby again, but I will say, get to work guys. It's not as easy as you think it should be.

[David Sandidge]

The entire world is manufacturing in China. It's not all owned by the Chinese. Foreign companies and foreign investment is driving this. It is simply taking advantage of cheaper labor because Americans as well as Europeans want cheaper goods. The high cost of manufacturing in the west has created this situation. Labor unions, high tax rates, uncontrolled government spending, increased costs of raw materials. These are the reasons that everything has gone to Asia.

[Mr. Wonka]

Thanks for staying in the debate David. Your input is appreciated, and much needed.

Tom

[misled youth]

http://www.artistinglass.com/dragon%20vessel.htm

damn ya got some skillz

[HumanLathe]

http://www.artistinglass.com/dragon%20vessel.htm

damn ya got some skillz

the large clear stuff that looks coldworked impressed me more than his color work. David very nice work SUPER CLEAN!!

[skip]

Hey David

Calling people crybabies here is sure to loose any respect I mentioned I had for you and your work. Keep running your mouth and it could negatively affect your reputation and possibly your business too.

[mistahead]

"its hard out here for a pimp"

[seadal]

Well this has blown up into a real heated disscusion. At this point it is sketchy ech you are right I may go over there teach them aand they could kill me. You never know. I am willing to take that chance for some reason.

[Alfred]

I'm really glad that this thread has brought out some of the REAL heavyweights in our industry,no offense meant to anyone.The fact is the more China's market improves the more their cost of living will go up and like David said they'll eventually have to find another cheaper place to manufacture.Eventually they'll probably end up moving back here,after our lazy ways turn the USA(btw Canadians,Mexicans,Guatemalans,Nicaraguans,etc.. are ALL Americans,sorry,pet peeve)into the New 3rd world.Also ECH I see that although you've been on tour for awhile your relatively new to glass,should I be pissed at YOU and all ya'll,newbies for ruining MY market,LOL.Like David says "Get to work"not that you aren't already,but work HARDER, FASTER,BETTER,AND CHEAPER than your competition.THAT's Capitalism,for y'all that say "Better dead than Red"

BTW,I consider myself a lazy slacker.

[Alfred]

And the fact is that our market is depressed because there are probably half a million more new pipe makers in the USA than there were last year.

[Alfred]

Skip-
Hey David

Calling people crybabies here is sure to loose any respect I mentioned I had for you and your work. Keep running your mouth and it could negatively affect your reputation and possibly your business too.-Skip


I won't use the word cry baby again-David

Please don't try and turn away someone that has an immense amount of knowledge and experience to share!The man was responding to personal attacks and recanted his offensive remarks,who else in this thread has?

[broken glass]

If you think it'll be like a vacation, you may be in for a rude awakening. I've been all over Asia, in and out of a lot of factories. Usually the areas that you find these factories are not desireable vacation destinations. They are polluted, dirty and poor. The workers earn about 25 cents an hour. You'll find no airconditioning, little to no exhaust, possibly dirt floors, and you won't be able to communicate with the workers. Let me also mention that the bathrooms are typically disgusting and you'll have to get used to using the "squatty potty". Be carefull not to get any on ya.

All that having been said, it will certainly be a learning experience. You may earn great money. Your money will go a long way in Asia. Pretty and friendly women will throw themselves at you for a small price of coarse.

Marcel really hit the nail on the head in his post, I don't think I could add anything more.

[Kool]

"its hard out here for a pimp"

LOL, Mista. Just watched "Hustle & FLow" last night.

[skip]

I ask my self this question.

Would my personal heroes such as Martin Luther King, Gandhi, Bob Marley, John Lennon, etc. agree with this mentaliity and I quote Mr. David Sandige


It is simply taking advantage of cheaper labor because Americans as well as Europeans want cheaper goods.

I say no!

The greatest humanitarians this world has ever seen despised this mentality. I loose respect for many artists who think they are doing anyone a favor paying workers in a 3rd world country less than they would elsewhere and then spending a ridiculous amount on fuel and polluting our oceans and earth to bring their cheap ass products here on barges.

To have the audacity to call people who protest this "crybabies" makes me sick. I take it personal no matter if he retracted the statement or not. It seems like David was running out of logic in an arguement.

I don't want to be the next CEO of an importing company. I am much happier educating people on a local level of why local goods are better for all of us and our enviroment. I am with Marcel on this. He makes such truthful statments in his posts.

It is no surprise the one who tries to defend exploitation is the one who ran out of logical arguements and called so many here crybabies.

If the rest of the world was trying to convince me jumping off a cliff was just a new way to go about business I would argue with them too. The "everyone else is doing it" mentality is not a real justification of what is right. Look at the greatest leaders this world has seen. They stood up to oppresion despite the ridicule of a few power hungry individuals. They in their own time were called much worse than cry babies but now they are unargueably GREAT PEOPLE.


SO

David would you argue that Martin Luther King or Gandhi were wrong?

[chuckworks]

skip, what brand of clear do you use?

[phab]

...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant_sucking_sound

[skip]

I use all kinds. Depending on how I recieve shipments. When I lived in LA I had the best prices on Corning Pyrex from Hackers. As far as I know it was batches that were made in the US. Or at least they still had American Union stamps on the box. I have used Kimble. I have used Schott. I use a lot of Simax these days since it is what is available locally in Eugene. I have used the UST. I have used the borox too.

I try to keep a balance in my purchasing and fuel costs (shipping or gas) and support local retailers. That is what I strive for... BALANCE in a fucked up world.

What I hear from David though is that he doesn't have much of a balance at all.


EDIT

Oh and Phab. WHy not wait more than 10 minutes before adding your "..." like I was not answering him

I am working after all.

[skip]

I'd like to add that IMO

Buying glass like schott or simax from a local supplier simply because it works better than one brand or another is different than

Outsourcing employment because you are taking advantage of cheaper labor.

If the chinese and indians are in fact much better glass blowers generally than we are then it would make more sense to work with them. I have not heard anyone here say such a thing so I take it we are generally all about the same. Excpet we here in America and Europe seem to have more knowledge on working glass and color techniques hence the need for Americans to go over and teach.

[phab]

EDIT

Oh and Phab. WHy not wait more than 10 minutes before adding your "..." like I was not answering him

I am working after all.


...not sure i understand you skip, i tend to post when i have something to add. "..." is in almost every post i make as a reference to the late great herb caen. it has and had nothing to do with you or whatever you were posting.

im not for outsourcing jobs for any reason. as far as im concerned its about money not for the 'love' of whatever it is a person does.
bill gates and hewlett packard can afford to pay a living wage to american workers but they outsource their technical support calls to 'overseas' helping to create that giant sucking sound.

[skip]

lol Misunderstanding then.

I guess it's between me and Herb Caen then hehe....

So do they have audio of this "great sucking sound". I'll check the link.

[David Sandidge]

Capitalism works for everyone. Even for crybabies like some of you.


I will clerify my statement for those of you that were offended even though I've already apologized for it.

It seems to me that some people here don't believe that the Chinese or other 3rd world countries are entitled to participate in a global free market. They believe that their markets should be protected by not allowing imports while America has been exporting goods and services around the world for a very long time. Americans have prospered because of this and everyone on this board has enjoyed that prosperity including you Skipper.

It appears to me to be hypocritical to argue against importing goods while at the same time consuming them. Skip, can you tell me where your cloths were manufactured? Can you tell me where your furnature was made? How about the food you eat, or the computer that you use to attack me in such a hypocritical manner. So many of the things that you use throughout your daily life has come from elsewhere in this world.

I'd venture to say that Gandhi would be happy to see that his countrymen are prospering. That his people are no longer starving as they once did. These third world countries still have a long way to go, but I have personally seen the growth in their economies and the rise in their standard of living. Have you been over there to witness this Skip? How many sweatshops have you seen Skip? They do exist. I've seen them but I don't participate with them. Tell me Skip, what is your definition of a sweat shop?

Skip, you hide behind an idealism in this discussion but I don't think that you are being honest with yourself or everyone else in this forum. Why don't you boycot all of those consumer goods that you buy with the money you earn from making your pipes? Are you paying taxes on all of the pieces that you sell to contribute to the greater good of your local economy? Somehow I doubt that. Gandhi went on a hunger strick to demonstrate how strongly he believed in his principles. Are you willing to stand up for yours or are you going to continue screaming at me while you live the life of a hypocrate?

The word cry babies was used to describe your hypocritical rantings.
The Chinese people would totally disagree with you. They would prefer to work and feed their families.

Who do you think you are Skip calling my work cheap ass crap. I seriously doubt that your work could stand up to some of the merchandise that is being produced in our factory. You have no clue.

This thread began as a discussion about teaching a craft. That is exactly what I'm doing and I don't see anything wrong with profiting from it. Those people that I teach are also profiting from it. I am also providing merchandise to people who would otherwise not be able to purchase it.

The merchandise we sell doesn't effect your ability to sell pipes in any way so why do you seem to have a personal vendetta towards me? I have a right to speak my mind and "run my mouth" just as much as you do Skipper. I have also been respectful in the manner in which I speak except for the cry baby comment that I have apoligized for several times. You are the one that is making this whole discussion get ugly.

I have not run out of logic but I am running out of patients. I believe that this forum is a great way to have a healthy debate, but when it gets personal I have no use for it or for you Skipper.

[chuckworks]

i just want to say that i think overpopulation of the human species has alot to do with the things we have been discussing.

[ech]

This thread has gotten out of hand.
Just for the record I'm not mad at you David for anything including the "cry baby" thing.

I just think anyone would be mad if someone from anywhere even someone from the next state over started copying their designs and brought them into their state and started selling the peices for less than them.
It doesn't matter whether its capitolism or not its still gonna piss me off if someone from somewhere else started knocking off my designs and selling them for less tham me.
Add in the fact that its another country and it brings up a whole other set of emotions. I'm not really worried about it I'm quiting pipes this year and by the end of the summer I'll be switched over to what I always intended to do which is sculpture and vessels. I just feel bad for the many people out there who have been making a good living from doing prodo pipes and raising kids and paying bills with it. From what I understand there are many people who are getting ready to go overseas to open production pipe shops very soon. If what I've heard is true the bottom is going to fall out of the market soon. I'm not worried myself though becuase soon it just won't effect me anymore.

[Micah Evans]

for what its worth, I talked to David years ago in person on these matters and was very impressed by his first hand knowledge and understanding on the matters covered in this thread. I find it a little strange a man that has such extensive experience in this matter is getting such crap from a few here, but then again, i am rarely surprised by internet arguments any more, lol.

oh, and once I tried to pay David for a sculpting workshop. he declined. instead he offered to come for free and blow glass by our side, answer any questions and just plain have fun...i have a hard time believing David is out to take advantage or exploit anyone.

And again for what its worth, after watching David work I wholeheartedly believe he is by far the most talented, skilled, and under rated flameworker in America.

[skip]

I buy my food organic from local farms . I pay more for that. I pay a little more for my power so that it comes from renewable resources. I am active in my community. I ride a bike and walk as much as possible. I walked to work for 5 years. I work with non profits and charities.

I try every day to make a differnce some way or another.

Also to suggest I don't pay taxes is bullshit. Or pay them in full. Do not imply I am working illegally.

To say I have no clue when you do not know me is a sign of your character.

And to assume I am only a pipemaker is another mistake of yours.

Who's ranting David?

[Micah Evans]

wow, i really think things should start to calm down in here. I would hate to see a thread with some informative info go away.

[David Sandidge]

I guess that we've both made assumptions about each other Skip. You don't know me either. Why don't we both just agree to disagree and be done with this nonsence.

[David Sandidge]

Thanks Micah.

I'd still like to get together and blow glass sometime. I believe that you could teach me a few things.

[brettodie]

ah the difficulty of living in a global market place. the only problems i have with the chinese as far as this side topic goes is that they dont play fairly. they keep their currancy artificialy low. which effects us directly. everyone on the planet has the right to increase their living standerd. a low wage to us is a very high wage to most of the rest of humanity. we have the realize our grandparents were on the front edge of a fundemental change in reality. now that reality has spread around the globe and everyone wants what we have. we need to move on and find the next revolution to be a part of.hopefully we're part of it..... peace brett

[Micah Evans]

I Would love to get together David, I'll be in Florida for another couple of months and then I'm moving back to the west coast. Time to set up my own studio again and be around other glassblowers, lol. I hear they got a couple in oregon....

[David Sandidge]

Micah, are you in Miami now? I've got a trip to china in April, but after that lets make a plan.

[Micah Evans]

yup, should be in miami until june or july. Let me know when you get back into the US, I would feel like shit if I left the state without blowing glass with you again.

[misled youth]

the sky is falling!!!

[skip]

David read my posts carefully.

I speak in general terms. I am PRETTY careful as to not assume anything about you other than what you have said here on this board first hand. WHen I speak of the global economy it is in general. It is not about your company specifically. All companies have their own policies.

On the other hand you didn't. You stated things about me that you are clueless about.

I can see this has gotten a bit personal for you and your defensiveness has gotten the better of you IN MY OPINION.

I will admit that these threads get the better of me sometimes as well , but I am careful to keep my arguements relative to the subject at hand in most cases. I have beeen around this board long enough too have learned from a few of my mistakes.

We will probably never agree on the global economy and it's affect on out business.

So with that said I have to go back outside to shear our sheeps. My wife is waiting on me so she can spin the fiber for some of next winters clothes.

[Micah Evans]

:getaroom: :crap: :drama: :nta:


love trying to make a sentence with smileys

[Alfred]

Marx on Capitalism (http://www.humanities.mq.edu.au/Ockham/y64l06.html)

[misled youth]

the thing i enjoy about this is seeing other's views on things. i would give my opinion but dont feel like typing all dem big words.
i personally dont believe anyone is all the way right. we all see things in different ways "i am color blind" and that is the best part of being an individual.
i agree with parts of what everyone says.

[Izzy Spun]

...Man this is a long thread...Both sides of the coin seem to be wellrepresented here. However, I was wondering if anyone had somemore practical info for seadal, such as perhaps how one might look into this proposal, check out the background of the person making the offer, have any others dealt with/heard of him? I'm sure that you are likelt to run into all sorts of people is this situation. Is this guy really a businessman with three FACTORIES? Or is he blowin smoke about the three sweatshops he owns? What people tell you, and the truth are not always the same. This sounds like it could be very rewarding if everything is on the up and up

[Swampy]

...Is this guy really a businessman with three FACTORIES? Or is he blowin smoke about the three sweatshops he owns? What people tell you, and the truth are not always the same...


True, true.

I figure everyone is the same rank of trustworthiness as me so I read it as genuine. Better that than walking round looking over my shoulder all the time heh Most times I'm right.

Sometimes I get fucked over. Such is the mutability of mankind.

[mer]

Sometimes I get fucked over. Such is the mutability of mankind.

you can't win if you don't play. for every one who fucked me over there have been many who didn't.

[seadal]

Sorry for lagging on the who is Virgina. I got the phone # in on accident, I cant remember who it is. I think it was sometype of government offical or a normal rep. Speaking to those people when Oklahoma tried to make glass pipes illegal.

Thank you for letting me see both sides of this issue. I really respect both sides but I am young I want to travel and this is my chance. I do worry about disappering or going to jail over there but I am going to take that chance. To the person that said I should be able to make 10gs a month here in the US working hard. Not a chance in my area even if I make """"""oil burners""""""".

[David Sandidge]

Good luck and be careful.

[broken glass]

Thank you for letting me see both sides of this issue. I really respect both sides but I am young I want to travel and this is my chance. I do worry about disappering or going to jail over there but I am going to take that chance.

nice to hear that you are only worried about your own saftey.

To the person that said I should be able to make 10gs a month here in the US working hard. Not a chance in my area even if I make """"""oil burners""""""".

If you are creative, and market yourself well, if you can look at what makes the most money, and put a spin on that , you can deffinetely make 10 a month, thats 500 a day five days a week, I know many people who have NO trouble doing just this. But if you have weak skills, and just make what everyone else allready makes, and don't look outside of your local market, then you are doomed to be poor, wheither you make 30 g's in three months, you will still be poor when you come home, because you didn't learn how to MAKE that money.

GOOD LUCK (and when i say good luck, i mean it like when an oponent on a poker table tells you good luck, even though they don't mean it)

((Oh and oil burners, nobody who makes any money on glass makes these, they are made by crackheads. What a suprise.))

[seadal]

What a suprise? What the hell does that mean. Seems like you are insinuating that I am a crackhead. I am from a small town and crack is not a problem around here. In Dallas we called them mapgassers.:D :tongue2:

[phab]

...hey seadal, just be sure to come back and let us know what YOUR impressions are after you come back home. eastern europe sounds good to me.

have a safe trip.

[broken glass]

no i am not insuating that you are a crack head, but if you make oil burners, then you have very low moral character in my opinion.

If you would accept an offer to make 30Gs in three months to teach to hundreds, if not thousands, then you have bad business skills You have no part of the company. if you count the amount of people that you teach, times that by 200, or 300, i think you will get to way more than 30,000. They are going to make loads of money off the three months of lessons you give them, making that 30 chump change for them. They take your info, and send you on your way, you get pimped for your knowledge, and they use that knowledge to make money, making loads for pennies on the dollar of what you would charge. I hear the going rate to go to china and teach for a year is 250,000, and you got half that, did you accecpt the first offer you were given. Oh and the most important part, YOU HAVE NO PART IN THE COMPANY. YOU GET ONE TIME FEE.

And you are not teaching them pipes??/?, hahahaha, it is not hard to turn a pen into a onnie, or a spoon, a jar into a bubler, You have no idea what they will do with the knowledge you give them, but i mean if everyone else is doing it, you may as well teach asia as well, and at that same logic, you might come back a tweaker, asian countries have the most meth addicts in the world.

[skip]

I was inspired by David’s question directed to me to actually explain some of what I do to make a difference in my world. I rarely discuss these things with anyone other than family and friends. A few people may think I am an ass for continuing this thread. I would rather be thought of as an ass than a hypocrite though. Plenty of people have emailed or Im'd me in support of my views in this post so I know I am far from alone here.

David’s question


Are you willing to stand up for yours or are you going to continue screaming at me while you live the life of a hypocrate? “

”you hide behind an idealism in this discussion but I don't think that you are being honest with yourself or everyone else in this forum. Why don't you boycot all of those consumer goods that you buy with the money you earn from making your pipes?”

David has never spoken a word to me before this. He has never met me. He hasn’t a clue who I am or what I am.

First off, I am a man of principle. I stand for what I believe and believe in what I stand for. I said in an earlier post that I pay more to buy locally grown organic food. I pay more to get renewable energy from my power company. I don’t shop at wal-mart. I shop at my locally family owned businesses ( video store, coffee store , auto parts store, etc.) I volunteer with charities and non profits. I work with my neighbors toward building sustainable community. I believe in organized labor. I recycle and compost. I grow a garden. I do a lot and there is a lot more I can do. It is like discipline. We can always do better. Thanks to my community, I have so many talented people to teach me so much more.

It frightens me to have seen an entire class of people forever changed in my lifetime. The middle class as we know it is no more. There is no more blue-collar middle class. There may be white collar middle class but very few blue collared middle class are left. It’s my opinion that it is corporate greed not unions that drove so much manufacturing to 3rd world countries. I will adapt to any more of these devastating negative changes that happen, but I work hard to make change in the life around me. I don’t exploit or take advantage of cheap labor. I pay fair price for my goods from local suppliers. It’s like the sticker “ think globally , act locally”

I don’t agree that “it’s just the way it is.” is a good enough reason to sell out to the way corporate America works. I am not fooled by the machine. I am not alone. Look at the WTO protests in Seattle and the protests around the world that are hardly even noticed by the corporate media. How many of you or your fathers have been fucked over buy the dismemberment of organized labor. These corporate employers are slowly taking away all of our benefits ( medical insurance, pension etc) and even worse THE JOBS THEMSELVES.

It is a total joke to think that very many 3rd world citizens are benefiting from greedy importers. They make a little cash and as they do inflation rises faster than their pay. For example, an apartment in Delhi or Bombay India has gone up a ridiculous amount. Their cities are grossly polluted. They wear fucking paper masks to try and breathe through the smog in some cities. To say that they are not starving any more is ridiculous. The only reason imported pipes haven’t put domestic pipemakers out of business already is that the importers are so greedy that they keep the prices relatively high compared to what they pay for them for huge profits.

I don’t think I will ever change the world or even our nation, but I changed my life. I am changing my community. Then maybe our children will be able to change the world.

I thought I would share my week so far so David would actually have a better understanding of who he calls a hypocrite.

Sunday my family and I participated in a walk for peace organized by the group “Stand For Peace”. It was 20 mile walk to Eugene in remembrance of the 4 year anniversary of the war in Iraq. Any of you from Eugene may have seen it on the news as it got a decent amount of press. My son is only 3 so we walked 8 miles then called it a day ( no he didn’t walk he rode lol ). In the pictures I posted you can see the “ray of hope” it was a “man-a-ray” prop made from recycled materials and I donated the glass eyes for it. We all have respect for the troops as many who participated are Vets and we just want to bring these guys home. You can not win a war against an ideology. The amount of support we got from passerby’s was amazing. This community is so progressive it is amazing. Here's a link to some photos of the march http://www.folioto.com/Gal1140_Stand_for_Peace_20_mile_march_for_peace.as p

I work with a group of children who are in Thistle Blossom Learning Co-operative, TLC for short. We meet once a week for 3 hours and have experiential learning through lessons, activities, and movement (exercise). This week we brought them out to the farm. They were so excited to see all the goats and sheep. We also gave them a lesson in spinning wool into yarn and then knitting into clothes. ( Thought I was kidding when I said I was going out to shear the sheeps?) I look forward to working with these children for many more years to come. They are the future and the more paths we can open in their brains now the smarter they will be when they are older. I have posted some pictures online of the day. http://www.folioto.com/Gal1139_Thistle_blossom_learning_co-operative.asp

My wife is Marketing Director for Parent Partnership. It is a nonprofit organization that helps many disadvantaged children in the community get the resources they need to keep up with their schooling and try to motivate them to do better. She works incredibly hard to help kids who would otherwise drop out and end up on welfare. Many of the participants are teen mothers. They educate these girls to be better parents and make better decisions. They offer them hope to keep their dreams alive and work towards goals. I have started making them a website so my wife can have a point of reference for the many businesses that help support this program. I’ll post a link when the site is finished so you web gurus can laugh your asses off at my amateur web design skills. Our local paper actually just wrote an article about the program. http://www.cgsentinel.com/fe_view_article.php?story_id=614&page_id=72&heading=0

I posted a thread in the Saftey break section to a weekly meeting in our community called “Bread Club”. Check it out! It is a radical movement that starts with the very organic things we put into our bodies. It’s a totally different way to buy and share food. There isn’t much like it. AND GUESS WHAT our government declares that this club is illegal. you can not sell wholesome organic food without a health permit. http://www.thegldg.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10638

Our community has also come together and fought to keep walmart from expanding. I was a speaker at a couple of the meetings at the city counsel. Walmart wanted the city to change the existing building code so they could double in size making it 170,000 square feet in a town of 8,000 people. That’s like 21 square feet per citizen, an absolutely ridiculous amount. Most cities with mega walmarts have like 3-5 square feet per citizen and that is a lot. We won that battle. Walmart was not able to comply with the specific requirements the city gave them, so the counsel voted to keep the building code the same. WE WON THE FIGHT!!!

I donate work to many charities. I have donated to causes from Rainforest preservation to Breast cancer.

This weekend I will be participating in the annual Yachats arts festival. It is a local event on the Oregon coast. I look forward to supporting the arts community by having a booth there and being supported by the local art enthusiasts. Yachats is a beautiful town. If you can make it stop by and say hello.

These are just a few of the things I do to be proactive. I don’t care if people agree with me or not. Call me names about my principles though and I will fight. We all have different perceptions of the world. I see things my way and feel I am anything but a hypocrite. I make mistakes and learn something everyday. I also spend too much time on the internet lol. Hope you understand me better now.

[David Sandidge]

Skip for president!

[David Sandidge]

I've posted some technical info on another thread about custom tool making that might help some of you increase your production, lower your prices and perhaps compete with my Chinese factory.

[David Sandidge]

Skip, I have to admit that you got me going as I was responding to insinuations. While I regret making certain comments in this thread, I have not edited any of them. I too have received many emails and PMs in support of my commentary and I thank all of you. I also thank those of you who have not agreed with me as you have opened my mind in some respects. This forum is a great place to read and learn and grow not only as a glass artist but also as a person.

[senz1]

hey all >>>>> Happy went over to Japan to do some "demos" I don't know if that qualifies as teaching a country to take over the world and ruin our lives ... glass is precious and we all should have an opportunity to work it.. Just keep the chinese and the Indians and the ..................out and maybe we'll be O>K... HAHAHaha have fun.... and try not to get taken advantage of... it's a crazy world we live in now...hopefully it will get better..just ramblin piece

[ech]

1.00 USD = 16,015.00 VND
United States Dollars => Vietnam Dong

They probably meant 30000 VND.

[seadal]

Yeah that would suck.

[Alfred]

Adam Smith's "Wealth of Nations (http://www.econlib.org/LIBRARY/Smith/smWN.html), Y'all should read this!