annealer question.

[dirtyglass]

Im getting materials together to build a new annealer. Right now im leaning towards a similar design to the paragon F240. Does anyone know if these are lined with fiberfrax blanket (on the exterior of the bricks) or just firebrick. Anyone see any problems with using frax even if its not on the Paragon to begin with? I cant imagine over-insulating would be a bad case in this situation because I wouldnt need to be doing and large/fast crashes with it.
Also, anyone build digital controls or sell them?
thanks
dirty

[mer]

smutty has excellent controllers;
http://www.hotasstools.com/

[dirtyglass]

and a website with sweet fire......

[smutboy420]

Yes I do make some good controllers :-)

Does anyone know if these are lined with fiberfrax blanket (on the exterior of the bricks) or just firebrick. Most likly just brick. because adding the extra insulation would cost them more $. and would all be the extra step to go the extr mile that most place won't go to make a higer quality product when good enought can sell for cheaper. :-(

Anyone see any problems with using frax even if its not on the Paragon to begin with? The only real problem is breathing the dust from the frax (even if it is SAFER then asbestos you don't want to breath any refactory if you can help it)
So if its on the out side of your brick and you cover it with say sheet metal or a something else. You'll be ok.


I cant imagine over-insulating would be a bad case in this situation because I wouldnt need to be doing and large/fast crashes with it.

Well you COULD over insulate a kiln to a point that to much insulation would end up costing more $ to buy more insulation with out any more benifit of heat savings. like if you decided if 4 inches was enought then 40 inches should be 10x better. Then the pay back would never = the cost for the extra insulation.

But if you added just one layer of 1 inch fiber insulation or a 2 inch layer.
You would have a lot more heat stay in the kiln. depending on the grade frax you use each inch is like aouther layer of 3 1/2 inch brick.

So it will keep it hotter for less electric and it will be cooler to the touch on the out side skin then if just the brick.

But having the first layer of brick is good for when you open your kiln. The bricks soak up a lot of heat base and help the kiln recover quicker. But it will take longer to bring a brick kiln up to temp then if it was just fiber.

[LoneWolfandSon]

give me a pm we have a good controllers also that are new!

[dirtyglass]

thanks smutboy, ill be in the market probably around the end of the month...or however long it takes my slow ass to get everything together for the build

[somewhere]

I have one oven that may be over insulated. It cools slower them my program in several steps. I have to crack the door after the first cycle or it will stay hot most of the second day.

That said I think fiber is an excellent backup refractory and it will probably pay for itself in the long run.

On another note I have made a couple of ovens out of nothing but frax. (and outside metal shell)You can rigidize the fiber with colloidal alumina silicate this needs to be reapplied every so often but works great. You can make and use large ceramic buttons to hold the frax on the wall.

[dirtyglass]

interesting....how do the buttons work? are they made from a regular clay body or refractory material?

[somewhere]

interesting....how do the buttons work? are they made from a regular clay body or refractory material?

Just some good old ball clay slab rolled. I like to use cookie cutters for the cutting out the buttons. I've even found some naked lady ones. LOL
I use stainless steel wire thru the button and thru the outer shell. Then just twist the wire to hold them tight. I also make donut element holders where the element passes thru the donut then the donut is held from the outside ring with the same stainless wire.

[smutboy420]

colloidal alumina silicate


Somewere thank you, thank you, thank you. A lil bit off topic. But I have been looking for colloidal silica. For a source of riditizer. But I was also tring to remember the stuff a guy showded me and my dad about 20 years ago on how to make gibson created opals with. I could not remember the exact stuff and reg colloidal silica powder and reg silica powder. Just was not working because it has to be the 200 mesh colloidal ALUMINA silicate.
DUDE I just got so excited I got as far as starting to pick up the phone to share my excitment with my dad. SHIT!!!! That ain't going to work.

[BSD_Radiant_Glass]

I'ma hot glass guy and I build a LOT of equipment. Including a dozen ovens now as well as an electric glass furnace.

For longevity, you'd be better off tying the buttons in with nichrome or other heating element wire. Stainless will work, and probably for a long time but some grades are not as heat resistant as one would like.

Fiber booard makes a great inner hot face in annealers, as does insulating fire brick. The vermiculite Skamol (vb-2200) is an AWESOME material for the hot face of kilns and what I've been using for my last few ovens.

For fiber backing brick in annealers, in my color pickup box, I have 2 inches behind the brick. In my day annealer, I have 4 inches and it takes almost 24 hours to come down so I can open it, it is also my most efficient oven to run. If you use only one or two inches, you'll pay a bit more to heat the kiln every time, but it will cool at a reasonable rate. Do wear a respirator and long sleeves that you can wash when working with fiber.

Colloidal Silica can be ordered from Dudley Gibberson at Joppa Glass. They have a website http://joppaglass.com/ with a LOT of cool stuff on it for the kiln builder. Do not order it in the winter time. If it freezes during shipping or storage, it's no good.

You may also be able to buy Colliodal silica from your local refractory supplier. I've also seen it on blacksmith forge supply sites.

Hope that helps some.

BSD

[Swampy]

BSD your build tech is basically the same as what I use, Dudley is really helpful and reliable to work with.

Dirty, have a look at the JoppaGlass website, you can see pictures explaining the best way to support your elements like BSD said, also using Nichrome wire to retain your insulation.

I agree BSD, Vermiculite is wikid. I'm currently building a fusing kiln 16 x 16 x 7" inside dimensions, just cleaned up the welds on the angle iron frame yesterday. I always calculate 7 to 800 watts per square foot is sufficient.

I use a CAL 9500P controller, costs a bit more but reliable, drives an SSR to make and break. K type thermocouple.

If anything, I slightly under-insulate, so that the element has to work to keep the temp where it's supposed to be.

Over insulating takes ages to cool. Especially solid brick; great in a cermaic kiln cos you want to hold the temp for a long duration but with glass fusing it's just to get it to full fuse and cool through the annealing ramp.

That's what I found, anyway. I should take some pics while thing is being built, for reference.

How big is the kiln you're building, Dirty?

[BSD_Radiant_Glass]

There are some interesting equipment builds documented on my site. There's some good stuff in Old Studio and a HUGE 4' by 8' by 1' fuser I built in New Studio. Enjoy.

www.radiantglass.com

BSD