allow me to beat a dead horse

[slinger]

this comment was posted on glassartists.org in Pakoh's gallery (http://www.glassartists.org/Gallery.asp?GalleryID=12364) :

"too bad there has to be such a term such as "art" that we feel so passionately about defining. it's getting to the point of where i cann't believe that someone has to categorize and define something that they created and then have to put up their guard. why must it be so difficult for people to just be, and why must it be even more difficult for an object to just be. why can't people listen more to what it is their eyes and surroundings tell them. it is absurd when it comes to music, drawing, sculpture, or anything else that embodies some of another's soul, the very emotions and thought processes that actually put the person in the correct place to manifest their thoughts into solidity...needs to be categorized?!?! this is one of the many problems with this society today and this awful word art, seems reserved to be loosely thrown around by people who have no ambition to even realize they can dream let alone take the next logical step and realize that dream..."
» Posted by ian on 8/16/2005 5:24:02 AM.

Not sure if thats someone from this forum or not, but ive been going back and re-reading this comment now a few times, and it really puts into words some things ive been thinking and feeling for a little while now. One thing i was just pondering, was that in context, the discussion in Pakoh's gallery is basicly fueled by the fact that hes posting "glass art that involves pipe(s)". Now the interesting thing to me is, that the discussion is heated in my opinion because of the fact the the artist is posting this work on "Glassartists.org". The same work is posted on "Glasspipes.org" but it is not generating the same debate as it is on the other site. Granted now i think with Pakoh's text accompanying the piece, he was asking for a debate;

but now i will finally get to my point:

Why are there two separate sites, one for glass pipes, and one for ALL OTHER items made out of glass???

I think we have touched on some ideas on some other threads about how glass pipes are like some bastard child and for one reason or another are always kept aside, separated, SEGREGATED, and under the covers. If glass pipes ARE indeed "art" (oh god here comes that dead horse to beat), then the people that made them are obviously "artists" and well, gee if they are of "glass", the makers are "glass artists".... see where im going with this folks.... do i have to keep typing.....

what do you think?

And can i please encourage people to post more than a knee jerk reaction, take a second and think on multiple levels about this, because it is a layered topic, i think most people would agree that hardly anything is simply "black and white".

:)

[Breed]

I think the seperation of the sites probably has more to do with legal issues than art issues.

If, somehow, the displaying of pipes became illegal, GP could be simply shut down without overhauling GA.

At first i thought it was because maybe pipes outnumbered other forms of glass art, but if that were so we would have glassbeads.org as well.

[slinger]

well arent legal and art issues intertwined?

i mean i hear the legitamate case that an artist's glass pipes are intended as a piece of art, and so an artist will say, my pipes arent intended for use at all, they are only intended to be admired (as art).

and isnt "intention" the whole legal schitck? i mean if you intend to murder someone with a gun or intend to spray paint a wall without permission, those items become "paraphenalia" which aids in the crime, but if you have a gun and its intended for hunting or a spray can and its intended to paint your fence on your property, its all good and legit.

see what im saying, and im just saying what someone else was saying, which is that glass pipes are legit (aka legal) because of the fact that they are art. (and not intended for use of any kind [even though they are functional])

but i guess maybe we dont know if this would hold up in court, therefore, the sites are separated out of fear. (of being shut down, etc.)

yeah i forgot about the fear factor.

why did i start this thread, now i answered my own question.

really i wanted to see what the community thought.

[Breed]

I don't think that there is any question as to wether pipes are art or not. If they weren't there wouldn't be an online gallery full of pictures of them.

You raise some interesting points....

Paco's work is a different scenario from the pipe or art debate. His works, for the most part, are clearly non functional art that uses pipes as a theme and focal point, through which to examine other relevant social issues.

I think that his work is meant to ask exactly this same question. Are pipes art? What makes his work really interesting is that it goes beyond that one question and asks the rally hard one. What do you mean by art? But, what makes him a genius is that he never answers those quesions.

[Stagger Lee]

I think it all about being PC and not OFENDING someone. Everyone is so overly sinstive these days. I find it to be on the border of comedy and drama. (a really funny but sad joke)

WHAt would happen if all the pipe artist started posting all there art on GA? What if the beadys started posting on GP? You'd get a bunch of whining and crying from both groups. Aren't artist suppose to be open minded??


There's a stupid line in the sand and Pakoh's crossing it. Good for him. He may go down as one of the GREATS!!

[IrieGuy05]

Weren't the 2 sites one in the same if not both were linked from a front page? I remeber there being gp.org before ga.org had its own site. I think its good to have them seaperate cause theres so much stuff on both. The stuff on the front would be gone in a day if we had both sites new stuff coming up.

On another note lets all hit ga.org with a shit storm of pipe pics all titled art... that would be a larf.

[Udai Hussien]

Hey you guys know my feelings on free speech and open debate, I have a server (In the USA ) and I say post what ever the fuck you want (well no kid porn, or Miscro$oft shit because bill Gates will have you killed) but otherwise, beads, pipes, sextoys, instructions on suicide bombing... nothing is really "taboo" for me.. I may not agree with what you have to say, but I do believe in your right to day it... And to me ART id just Fart without the F... too much shit gets passed off as art... Speaking of (f)art, http://unpopart.org is still doing strong.. I suggest everyone buy "Shit Magnet" or "the Redneck Manifestos" by Jim Goad...

[broken glass]

Art =fart without the F :rollin I agree 100%, and then i got to go sell, and i am a @%$^@%^ing hipocrit. I hate the art term for it covers too much, and too much shit can get passed off as art, so to me it has lost ALL meaning. However, I love it when i get some $$$respect$$$ for my f-art.

[Mr. Smiley]

I really don't care what anybody wants to call their work. It's all in the eye of the person viewing it... and I don't really care what my work is called, as long as somebody is forking over bill money. Art craft... it's all the same. Mine are one of a kind pieces and I do call it art when I sell it, because I feel like it. Last I checked, there wasn't a national board of art judges holding the rights to the word "art". I would go further and say that the difference is probably in the degrees of artistic expression... and again, there isn't anybody holding the rights to the word, so why waste time trying to classify. There are a few copyright / patent happy fuckers that may try to regulate it... you know who you are. :D

[bearclaw]

maybe that is what it is about then,,,,,$$. if you can get paid for something you create.. and then..uuhh.. the more you get paid, the better artist you are,,, uhhh,,,,or wait, maybe if you can't get paid for it, it is a more valuble piece of art because the suffering you have to go through in life just to create something you think is beautiful. no wait, maybe it's about having a real catchy name, or maybe it's really about who we are, and our real intentions. but who knows what an artists real intentions are, because i think maybe it's easier to just call something "art" then to really put skill and time into something or maybe it's not about skill level or hours involved.. it's about ideas and feelings,. and a witty exspression of theses thoughts and ideas. yah, who knows, right?

[bearclaw]

maybe it's better to just state what you make, and let others decide whether it's art or not. i would buy one of pakoh's recent works. i think they are great. maybe that makes it art. as far as where pipes fall into the "art" world, wait i forgot what the original question was, sorry slinger.

[Micah Evans]

Let me take a swing at this fucking horse! A debate on what art is, is a debate between the artist and his work. I try to use glass to express some kind of emotion, the process is a release and in very few cases, fullfilling. But those moments when a piece of my work pleases me, the moment i capture in the piece what i set out to capture, that is why i do it, that is why i am an artist. The fact that I sell my work is only because i need money to make another, to feed that drive that keeps me from sleeping at night.

I have experienced that feeling making both sculpure and pipes, the reason I don't post pictures of my pipes is just because of the stigma attached, i guess i lack the balls. I don't really know what the viewing audience would think of a pipe i made, I don't know what the government will eventually do with the knowledge of people/artists wo make pipes/art/paraphanalia, the gray area is too gray for me to risk any trouble that might eventually make it hard for me to keep blowing glass so i choose to keep my pipes to myself. I have often thought about posting a glasspipes page with an alias, but when it comes down to it I want my name attached to my work, not a fictional name.

once again I think art is between the artists and the art, everybody else can fuck off, if the content is not apropriate for the website that is for the powers that be to decide, all the people who have aproblem with the content can fuck off. I have always had a deep respect for Pakohs work, he was one of the first names i heard of in the glass world when i started, his recent work is probably the most important work to come out of flameworking in the last decade, not only because of the content but also because of the ideas and rage it is spawning.

please forgive my rambling and bad grammar, its early and its hard to form complete thoughts! I would be interested to hear why you guys make art? why you make pipes? is it fullfilling and why? for me the process of creation is the art, if it sells great if it doesn't oh well.

later

me

[IrieGuy05]

Yeah I hear that about having the money to make another. Its kind of like being that rat on the spining wheel thing. You keep running to get the cheddar. Burn through glass to have an excuse to buy more.
Nice to hear you make peices too, I wasn't sure after seeing the nice art stuff.

[Mr. Smiley]

Micah... I make it to quench my passion to create as well. I am my worst friggin critic and am rarely satisfied with my work... proud, yes... true satisfaction is something I don't know if I'll ever acheive... I'm not sure I want to. Then it might get boring. I hope I keep my goals just out of reach. I can get a glimmer of satisfaction and I can get compliments from others, but if I ever truely satisfy my inner critic, I may just have to quit. I guess the desire to do better or to do more is what keeps me glued to the torch is this Florida heat. I don't want to be the best glass worker in the world. I don't try to compete with anybody but myself. If I am making the absolute best work I know how, I'm a happy camper. I refuse to sell work I have a problem with... if I see something wonky or not right, it goes in a drawer... and when that is full, it goes in a box. I have a ton of shit that just doesn't measure up. Would it sell? Probably. I'm just not willing to put out work I'm not proud of. I would like to hear more of why other people do this too. Is it more than a paycheck? :D

[Micah Evans]

There are a ton of headdies running around with a ME marble on em! I think i'm gonna bring a couple to AGI this year, I am losing the patience for the detail that is needed for a nice pipe but every once and a while i come out with a good one. All i know is more sweat and work goes into one of my pipes than goes into most of my art, but the feeling is the same.

me

[Micah Evans]

Smiley- I just moved all my stuff out of Lucid Visions and i tossed a ton of work that just didn't measure up. I have a hard time letting something slide by that i am not satisfied with, I would rather throw it off my roof than sell it sometimes.

[Chris Carlson]

i love pacos work, but i think he just put it up there to piss the glass snobs off. they must respect his technical skill at the very least. i love the use of the free sites, so i respect the line drawn in the sand, and understand why its there. i'd rather have a piper tell me that my reversals are weak or i need to work on my welds, instead of havin a whole bunch of beadmakers tellin me my pipes are stupid and they're not art.

[FredLight]

No one has any right to tell me what I make is not art. I have been making things from DIRT since I was 3. After that, I moved on to ROCKS and PAPER soon followed. What its made of doesnt matter.
I dont care, If I made it, its art. You may not like it, but that's your opinion.

Is this another boomerang thread that won't die? When was the last go-round on this topic? Cupcake's ___and_____ encasement piece? (doesnt matter what's in it)

[rustyglass]

This may be a little off topic, but related.

"A debate on what art is, is a debate between the artist and his work"

Ok, I agree Micah. But.....(you knew that was coming), I have sent countless vases, goblets, sculptures of odd things, marbles, etc to my mom. Who in my opinion is the only person who would like some of that beginner/practice stuff, because it was made by me. Ok, she takes it upon herself to take some of these pieces to a consignment shop to see what the lady thought of them. Long story short, the shop owner loved them, almost all of them, and some of them define WONKY, or Janky, but she loved them. Back to my point. To me the trash bucket was too good for these pieces. But someone else finds beauty or something that sparks a feeling inside of them, not just my own feeling towards the piece. Is it art now? I think that I would be happy if I could make things all day and never show anyone, in that respect I agree with you Micah. But when strangers admire an out of shape piece, it makes me wonder how much my opinion counts at all.

Sorry to get off topic a bit.

[Micah Evans]

Ahh yes rusty, I in fact encouraged you to supply more of those pieces to those galleries too!LOL! you caught me....there comes a time in any artist/pipemakers life when the bills pile up and the dreaded PRODO is needed. At my last studio and probably in my current situation to be, we did prodo of both kinds pipe and art to pay the bills. While a spoon or a sandblasted and painted vase didn't fullfill any kind of artistic expression, they fullfilled our bellies. Now we developed a quality product in both pipe and art that we could stand behind quality wise but not as much content wise. I know in previous conversations with you and knowing your work you can make those little vases well, high quality for what they are. and i don't see anything wrong with that, now there is a fine line to be between fine art and craft art, i hold each in the same level of respect but there is a difference and that my friend is for a whole other thread!!!

oh yeah, my mother still has all my crappy seconds and everybody loves them, but that doesn't mean i'm gonna make more! when it comes to your work yours is the only opinion that counts after all is said and done!

sorry for hijacking your thread y'all

[Aumshakti]

anyone ever heard of jackson pollock? i'm sure.... he was ridiculed by other painters and as well by the main media, i think it was time magazine that compared his work with necktie designs, if you havent seen his work, look him up....he was revolutionary, inspired in a realm that few care to even venture into. anyway, to ask somebody else what art is just eliminates you from the process of creating...i guess thats my point. The act of art is such and intimate experience....its like exposing your soul, not everybody is going to respond in a possitive matter. life in itself is a performance art piece....to allow anytihng or anyone to judge or perceive your expression as anything other than what you intended it to be is simply reality, wheter or not you allow it to affect your artistic development is entirely up to you. there is nothing or noone that can tell me that i am "creating" wrong. then again, i might do just that (judge) for the sake of creating my expression. its my choice to be an artist, from street performance to poetry to glassblowing to picking my nose. i dont mean to be so arrogant in regards to this opinion, but i have to say that anyone that does not appreciate my energy in conciousness, creativity or expression can just kiss my ass....i'll let them do it on stage, if they need to. we breathe, therfore we are creating....constantly.

[PyroChixRock]

Jason Polluck was at agi last year....he didn't make anything, except this. It's blue prints for a toe motor and a lazer driven drop furnace.

http://photos.imageevent.com/pyrochixrock/picsforposting/large/jay%20blue%20prints.jpg

[Aumshakti]

thats some cool designs....i meant jackson pollock....is in the met (new york) huge canvas paintings that look like exploded neurons.

[Micah Evans]

LOL i nearly peed myself misha....

[Aumshakti]

i drive a grease mobile.....toe motors are too far into the future....i think finger motors will come first.

[PyroChixRock]

Micah you would have peed yourself then if you were there last year. You know he threw Chihuley out of an airplane? That's why he's got that eye patch you know...

[Glassy_I]

This is certainly not a new debate! If you are interested look a little beyond your torch.

The Fine Arts vs Crafts dialogue has been going on in the ceramics community since the 60's and I would not say it is settled yet. The issue is complex and has been fought over a lot, but there are several things that are generally agreed upon which distinguish Fine arts from crafts.

One is when technique out weighs concept. In fine art, generally (with some exceptions like Martin Puryear) the concept of an art work is a lot more important than the craftsmanship. When craftsmanship is prominent, it crosses the line back to crafts.

Another is when an item has a daily use (cups, teapots, pipes), even when it is a unique item.

A third is the history of the medium and what it was used for.

A forth is whether the item has a history of production ware, with out much spontaneity.

I would say glass pipes when they are good, fall in the category of Fine Craft along with some ceramics, fiber arts and wood working and other glass. This is what you would generally see in galleries which feature crafts, or the magazine American Craft, not such venues as crafts fairs where mostly what you see is schlock production ware with out any originality, usually derivative of (copying) the masters of the field, but not as well. (Farts and Craps)

If pipe makers want to break out of the insulated/isolated world where we are now, we need to look at the bigger picture and context. Lamp working is traditionally a craft. Some glass artists may be able to transcend this label, but it is very difficult. Ceramics has been at it for over 40 years and there are very few galleries or museums which will even show ceramic art (even sculpture with out a daily use), and only a handful of artists have been able to transcend the labeling.

This is a prejudice against the "medium", the material. "Glass snobs" have to deal with this too, glass in pretty marginalized in the Fine art world, especially lampworking which is very limited in scale by the material, and where technique dictates what the final product looks like. Pipe makers have additional prejudice to get past, but the "Fine Craft" category is where to set our sights for representation and respect, not the Fine Art arena.

[PyroChixRock]

He also has lazer gloves that he can see into Milon's soul with.

[PyroChixRock]

By the way lable it all you want...it's art to me and no one can convince me otherwise! :attitude: This includes any form of glass art, pipes, marbles, hummingbird feeders....whatever. If it's made nice and presented well it's art.

[Micah Evans]

i hear that Stale Patchouli guy can really blow some glass, i didn't know he fell out of an airplane, is that how he lost his eye?

[Aumshakti]

beautiful double finger motor misha...

[Glassy_I]

You can call a hummingbird feeder art, just like a potter can call a coffee cup art and no one can stop you. But probably the only people who are going to agree with you are other lamp workers or potters. When you are tired of selling on ebay or what ever and looking to find a gallery to represent you, or some recognition for your work in the bigger scheme of things, you are just going to look dumb and like you don't know what you are talking about.

[skip]

what what out an airplane>?

Damn haha I didnt know you went to agi last year Misha. Sounds like we missed out.

[Micah Evans]

Some real world advice is much needed,thanks glassy I.

[Aumshakti]

i think that the stained glass movement will be recognized as a fine art soon....specially the chicago art glass movement an all the tiffany----lloyd wright stuff, it was revolutionary and meets the criteria

its up to the snobs to decide....who wants to impress snobs anyway....pituey.

anyone metions chillllulaby again you can send me a quater through paypal.....

funny thing though, any time glass and art come int the same text, his name shows up....maybe he will be recognized as a fine artist...he should be.

[PyroChixRock]

I'm going to look dumb because I consider glass art, art? i don't think so hahahah! I think people who don't consider it art are the ones looking dumb, but of course that's my opinion and it's mine to keep, so is yours. But I don't think it's very nice going around calling other people on this forum dumb because they have a different opinion then yours. That, is arrogant.

Skip, you should go to agi. It's like the vacation of vacations for glassblowers. :D

[Mac Maestro]

Ya, Skip. How many years in a row can you actively participate in this forum and NOT go to AGI?? Don't make us come get you!

i would say the individual pieces I make are not art. <<1 cent
But my body of work and the path of creation i'm on ARE. <<2 cent

[Glassy_I]

Sorry Pyrochix, I was probably just reacting to your flipping me (or my opinion) off in your previous post. I come from ceramics where I have seen a whole other side of this argument that is a 40 year on-going diologue which I thought it would be valuble to share some of here since I think it's on topic.

I didn't actually say you were dumb, just that anyone might look dumb if you don't take some time to educate yourself about the issues surrounding what you are so passionate about.

I would say D.C. (I'm avoiding the .25 cents to pay pal) has crossed over because he uses glass in a way that was never done before and it's on a scale (his installations and public art works), which breaks glass out of it's historical convention. He is recognized in the art world. Ironically, I am not sure how recognized he is at this point in the greater craft world as a craftsman since he no longer makes his pieces himself, or so I have heard (some one here may know better?).

But struggling to get into the "art" catagory kind of reinforces it's power, ie, we want to get in, some one else wants to keep us out. Where as placing glass in the realm of Fine Craft aknowleges what glass is, the skill it takes to master it, and the history of where it has come from. Being grouped with fine wood workers, fiber arts people and ceramists is not a bad place, it's just different. It's only less if you think so.

I think that's my whole 2 cents.

[slinger]

By the way lable it all you want...it's art to me and no one can convince me otherwise!

lets get off the topic of what "art" is or isnt for a minute and tackle the question of

WHY 'we' care so much about labeling and categorizing and commodiffiying "objects we create"?!

Why do we fight so hard to defend something as "art" or insist it is not? why is it so important?

does something that is agreed upon to be "art" gain some validity as a result?

thats what i meant when i asked why are there two sites one for glass items, the other for exclusively pipes, ie. why do we have to break it down into these confining categorys, especially when most agree that the line between these categories is extremely blurry.

click here to learn How To Become an Artist (http://www.donnymiller.com/howtobecomeanartist.html)

[Mac Maestro]

http://media.livingwithstyle.com/files/1/4/2/7/1427-deadhorse_thumb.jpg
*Slinger tires of the dead horse.
And starts beating a live one.

[bearclaw]

that's pretty funny slinger.. now i know which direction my career is going, thanks to you and donny miller.

as far as why it is important.....maybe we should change the name to............glasspipeartists.org
then what can anyone say... a new lable to bridge the gap.

if i wasn't working with glass i would be doing something else to exspress creativity. taking a break from the torch, i decided to do small scale organic farming on four acres here at home. me and my wife did three farmers markets and had some fun. long story, from the roof of my house, the field looked like a painting. my raised beds were all planned out in detailed drawings, and my lettuces and everything planted according to color. everything very ornate, a far leap from your ordinary "farm". this creativity just comes from me. i don't know if what i make is "fine", or craft, or art, i just know that i will continue creating, and evolving. and i hope that there will be folks that appreciate it all along the way, because i'm just being creative.

[fyrsmith]

OK, I have to fall into this "black hole" of art vs craft vs "fine craft" again. Haven't been here for many years, tired of discussing/fighting about it.

Credentials:
I came to glass from the ceramics(stonewarepottery) tradition, having been a potter, teacher studio/gallery owner from the late '60s through the middle '80s: I was part of that art clay movement.

A famous craftsperson, can't remember who, said "technique is cheap" and someone added "art is hard". Being a teacher requires one to reflect on larger issues than technique. One issue is "what does your work have to say to the viewer/owner of your work?" Any moderately skilled, manually talented person can make a piece that stands up and says "I am beautiful and well crafted". That in itself can make a piece worth viewing/owning, but unless it _also_ has something to say about history, the human condition, current events or even just the artist's state of mind it is "fine craft" not "art". Jackson Pollock's works were an exploration of the medium of paint, and _also_ were making statements about the state of "art" and painting in his time.

I long ago gave up trying to be an "artist". I am perfectly happy making objects that give people pleasure because they are well crafted and good to look at, and have no other message.

-Don- aka Fyrsmith

[fyrsmith]

The consensus of opinion from a quick Google search says that Harvey Littleton, founder of the studio glass movement in America was the originator of the phrase "technique is cheap" !!

[onion]

one thing i dont like is the concept of art only being linked to the act of creation, how are the day to day aspects of life not art? the fine art of loading the drier, look for beauty in the person in line in front of you at the corner store, buying a coke. or an old person having a smoke on a park bench.

[bearclaw]

well, capture that beauty, then perhaps you can call it art.......???

[onion]

i think its a question of anthropology, and the western *worldveiw*. In peru (i think) there is a tribe of peoples who produce absolutely nothing that could be regarded art, basic fishing/hunting/survival tools, etc. to the westerner the lives of hte tribesmen seem totaly mundane. In the eyes of the people however their very existence is art, and averything they do, from fixing a roof, to taking a crap, is in their reality directly connected with existance, and in a way i suppose a *god*, and so is beautiful.

[slinger]

some art by donny miler (http://www.donnymiller.com/art.html)

yea claw, donny miller rocks, i caught a show he did up here last year and it affected me more than i thought it would. the link above is a page full of thumbnails, each one is a piece but they are all connected, so click a bunch of them.

so why is categorizing something as/as not "art" important to you?

[slinger]

-------->>

[onion]

Do you have a favorite? Which one and why? Email favorite@donnymiller.com
Are you a cute female over 18? Great! Email sluts@donnymiller.com
hahaha

[Lacross]

By the way lable it all you want...it's art to me and no one can convince me otherwise! :attitude: This includes any form of glass art, pipes, marbles, hummingbird feeders....whatever. If it's made nice and presented well it's art.
By the way lable it all you want...it's art to me and no one can convince me otherwise!

[PyroChixRock]

:lol Seriously I don't see why this keeps coming up anyway, who cares what we all call it as long as we try our best!

By the way Slinger, glasspipes.org was created separately to give art pipes the MAXIUM exposure possible, so we weren't mixed in with the overload of beads and pendants.

[Lacross]

"By the way lable it all you want...it's art to me and no one can convince me otherwise! :attitude: " That,is arrogant and closed minded to boot. Just because something is made of glass does not make it "art". Just because someone works with glass does not mean he is automatically an "artist"

[PyroChixRock]

You missed my point, but whatever I don't even give a shit who calls anything what. Go check out those painting made of feces, they are art. :rollin

[PyroChixRock]

My 7 year olds latest piece of art. It may not be art to you but it sure the hell is to him. Who has any right to tell him it's not? No one.

You know why it's art to him? He put his heart and soul into it. When he looks at it, it gives him a feeling. That is what art is all about...and the point I was trying to make before but I'm so short on time I just didn't have time to sit here and elaborate...nor do I now so this will have to do!

[slinger]

ok, so is it against the rules to post pipes in your gallery on glassartists.org?




:pimp:

[slinger]

and still everyone keeps arguing the dead horse and not addressing the new horse?

why does anyone care if something is art or not in the first place?

you all post enough about what your opinions on what art is or can be etc., but i dont see anyone addressing the issue of why its all all important to classify it as art or anything else in the first place?(see quote at beginning of thread)




here ill go first.

i think the term art is used for economic reasons. its money. the term art commodifes the "creation" into a sellable product. Now i can describe it in order for sale. It is art and it is for sale. Wanna buy some "art"?

[3 rip min]

i like this one.... http://www.donnymiller.com/gallery/howwillidie.html

im with misha on this one.. if someone thinks something is art then its art... i used to fight with a dude i worked with all the time.....

[slinger]

if art = whatever you think it is

and its just 100% arbitrary,

then whats the point of the word?

[bc]

art is a word an that's it. Folks feel better if they make something art. Not to mention the years of suppresion on this whole subject(not pipes) calling them art makes people feel like there part of fighting the revolution against the war on drugs. Calling it art puts them in a 'higher' class of 'society.'

I now announce I am not an artist an I still feel the same as I did before typing this sentence.

[rhodium]

i think it comes down to a control issue where certain personalities of people just NEED to know everything about everything, and if you don't know it don't show it or you will be ridiculed. if the person who made blablabla says it's yummy-numums then you do not feel as much pressure to come up with your own conclusion. i absolutely cannot stand letting people off the hook so easily, and in that context, i feel it facilitates ignorance and lazy minds. almost reminiscent of english class after reading a story and then being expected to pull out some life changing revelation through a metaphor and just not getting it. insecurity usually follows and then ultimately humiliation for being dumb, this does not by any means make the person less intelligent but sometimes it just don't work like that with emotions. i think it boils down to an ego/control issue for a lot of people, leading into the heard mentality. this society needs to classify anything and everything, and when it can't it gets scared. as it becomes increasingly larger, smaller, more complex, detailed or even profound the need to categorize it grows. amazingly enough if nothing is said by who created whatever it is, and people are either loving it or hating it, they need validation even more. this becomes a major issue when it affects me personally because i have no use for such labels anymore as they usually have no context to how i felt during the journey or at the moment. it also makes it easier to dwell on the past and we all know that yesterday is not now. now is now, and i'm quite positive also however contrdictory it is that many people also do not appreciate or are even aware that tomorrow is only now when you make it so....

[rhodium]

hey onion is that you?
do you put the onion in the bucket?

[brettodie]

its all perception folks how you look at the world makes it what it is........... everyone elses perceptions are theirs and generally have very little to do with you. the debate is over people trying to reach a middle ground on their perceptions. i dont care if i make art or crafts. i like to make things,sometimes i like to make things that are nothing more then beauty expressed the best i can othertimes i feel like i have something to say.......peace brett

[Aumshakti]

anyone ever heard of laurie anderson...she's an eccentric musician and perfomance "artist"

there's this piece that she did once on the streets of new york...she called it on thin ice, she froze a set of ice skating boots into blocks of ice, out a tape head into a beat up violin and strug the bow with a strip of reel tape...which had a part of the symphony tittled on thin ice. she played that strip until the blocks of ice completely melted of the boots. never recorded, never to be done again...lost into the moment that it happened. only written about...and i guess spoken of...

i've told people about this and they sometimes think its the dummest thing, others feel like it should be done again, or at least she could have made a video of it....blah blah

ultimately it goes down to what you want it to be, not what others think it is....or lable it.
i feel that the best artist dont even bother to think of themselves, let alone try to prove they are worthy its all about expression....self amplification...the digestion by others, which in turn create lables to describe what they have digested.

have you ever seen picasso's centaur...he made it with a friend and a delayed exposure camera, its amazing, but what i truly love about it is the look in his eyes on the photo, such passion and raw intensity...that brother was truly enjoying his creative essence. do you think he considered himself an artist? or was he just in love with the creative process? I vote for #2. just a guess though. %P

i feel that the most amazing "art" has probably not ever been seen by the masses...nor it matters

the outcome of creating came before the intelectualizing it into a word. thats merely a response to an action.

enjoy.

[Mr. Wonka]

I think Fyrsmith summed it up best by saying:

I long ago gave up trying to be an "artist". I am perfectly happy making objects that give people pleasure because they are well crafted and good to look at, and have no other message.

That's why I'll never be an "artist", because I don't care much for labels or titles. I create things that make me (and others) happy, so the title doesn't mean anything to me.

Slinger's link (http://www.donnymiller.com/howtobecomeanartist.html) sums up my impression of a true "artist" more directly than I can ever convey.


Misha- OMG, your post of Jason's drawings brought back some memories :rollin Please bring it with you to A.G.I.- I'd love to frame it and hang it in the shop!

[PyroChixRock]

i'm planning on it Tom, it needs to go on the wall of flame! :lol

[Lacross]

So if you put your heart and soul into something,and when you look at it it gives you a feeling,it's "art" ? Well then,everybody is an artist! Just taking a dump reveals a piece of art. You put your heart and soul into it.Some people even put blood,sweat, and tears into it.Then when you look at it, it gives you a feeling.

[Mr. Wonka]

Sounds great Misha, it will be prominently displayed :lol


Look at my hand :tongue:

[PyroChixRock]

Lacross if you want to call shit art that's your prerogative. I don’t personally compare the effort it takes to take a shit to the effort it took my son to draw that drawing, for example…or anything else people put real effort into creating.

[Mr. Wonka]

THIS LINK (http://maddox.xmission.com/irule.html) is funny to me, but it may offend some parents... my Mom got pretty pissed off when I sent it to her.

[steven p selchow]

thats kids being kids...fucking funnny...wish we were kids again.

atleast I could spell correctly.

[Lacross]

So let me add to your definition of art. You have to put your heart and soul into it,it has to give you a feeling when you look at it,and, you have to put "real" effort into creating it. Sounds really subjective to me.....................

[IrieGuy05]

Haha I like this one from donny miller
http://www.donnymiller.com/gallery/questionmark.html
I always thought sports were gay...

Those icon type pictures are good tho, I like the layout and the words that go with the pics, that guy really hits on stuff people don't talk about much. I like the blood bath one and the ones with the man and woman and captions about marriage implying its bullshit, I think that was half the point anyways..

Its struck me as art more than a landscape or any other kind of paintings/drawings.

This one is good too, http://www.donnymiller.com/gallery/lookatthepast.html

[onion]

"hey onion is that you?
do you put the onion in the bucket?"

i have no idea what your talking aboot?
i do love onions..... and i have nothing agaisnt buckets?

[rhodium]

lol. sorry onion your mention of Peru, in addition to the onion action reminded me of a friend travelling in Peru now. he has an onion song and thought you might have been him, sorry bout the mixup and confusion. lol :rollin :rollin :rollin

[onion]

what a coincidence.... more than one onion???
its a plot to undermine my ninja supremacy!!!

[bc]

how about this...do you think boroscopes are art? :rollin

[3 rip min]

Hahahahah!!!!

[chayes]

just so ya all know beating a dead horse is still considerd animal cruelty.

[onion]

i know a schizo dude who ripped apart a dead deer with his hands and claimed to get high off its rotting fumes

[Aumshakti]

http://www.ninjasecretsrevealed.com/

http://www.origamiboulder.com/

[Aumshakti]

master the secrets you will