Propane cages, Oxy regualtions, and insurance questions

[Freerange Glass]

First issue i need input on:

I need to store my propane tanks outside in a highly visible place in a not so great neighborhood. I've shopped around for cages (very expensive!), and If I was to get a cage to hold 4 twenty pound tanks, can the cage be anchored and locked well enough to prevent theft/vandalism?

If so, is there any recommendations for where to get one that would be cheaper then the manufactured ones? For instance a metal fabrication shop?

Second Issue:

I've read the threads on running the propane lines from the outside to the inside. I'm going with running the hose through a window and disconnect it when I'm done using it. It's been noted that under code, this is considered a temporary installation and is allowed under code.

If someone sees a problem with this, let's hear it.

Third issue:

How can I ease my landlord's fear of a liquid tank inside the building? From the threads, it sounds like there are no regulations against it. I know the safety and storage procedure, but besides that is there any official literature that states either YES or NO oxygen can/can not be stored in side a commercial building?

Fourth issue:

Regarding liability insurance - I need to find some. Can someone give me tips for terminology and a description of a lampworking studio that would not set off red flags? Anyone with experience? It's been said to go with a local property and casualty brokerage and ask if there is a company that specializes in insurance for ultra small craftsman type operations or glass workers specifically.

Thanks for all the help!

[Dale M.]

On securing cage... Yes you can buy/build a cage the will resist theft and vandalism... But you will never stop a really determined thief... If you make it stout enough it will stop the less enthusiastic thief.. Cost factor of building or buying cage will be something you have work out... Check cages at propane tank exchange locations for a good example.

On getting propane into building... Yes you could just put hose through open window and remove it when not in use... Do not drill hole in wall and put hose through hole. If you penetrate wall, use metal piping... Any other way is against NFPA codes and fire officials could shut you down if they were inclined to do so.... Metal piping requires a shut off valve at wall entry point (from outside) and at end of piping before hose connection.. Using a cage and metallic piping will keep you from having to open/close cage (and window) and connect/disconnect hose each time you want to do torch session.... You can leave metallic line "charged" with propane and only open/close inside safety valve at start/end of work session....

Dale

[menty666]

Think of it this way, if you can open the cage, so can a determined thief. Best you can do is deter.

[nickglassdood]

check with the fire inspector where you are at .
we were alowed one full 25lb propane tank inside hooked up at a shop i was at in the city.
and liquid inside too .. just aproach it like you are setting up a welding shop, but tell them your torches are stationary. worked for me never had isssues

[Greymatter Glass]

Ok, before we start you didn't specify if you're in a residential or commercial property. Since you're in need or insurance I'm going to guess it's commercial. If it's residential this still applies for the most part, but some things more and others less...

First issue: you answered it yourself. A metal fabricator can make you a cage to store your propane in. I don't know what you think is expensive, but I would expect to pay at least $300-500 for a finished steel cage that's reasonably theft proof and can hold several cans. You'll also have to consider bollards if it's close to a street, parking lot, or loading dock.

For the same price you can buy a small tank that bolts to the ground and the propane guys come to fill once a month. You pay for what you use either way.....

Second issue: temporary lines may be acceptable in your area, but I'd still recommend a metal pipe through the wall fixture. If you get a small service tank they will install it for you for a reasonable price. You can put your regulator on the inside, and have the pipe hooked directly to the tanks main regulator - nothing to tamper with, nothing to steal.

Third issue: Depends on your landlord and location. if your land lord is adamant that you can't store cryogenic liquids in your shop then you'll just have to find someone else to rent from. With the potential threat of having to find a new tenant, with a new set of problems, they usually relent - especially once you have that insurance certificate.

I know in New Mexico there's no law against having a liquid dewar under 1000 pounds in a residence - but there's nothing that says it's ok either... nothing you can point to other than omission in the code books.

Fourth: I'm in the process of getting a certificate of insurance for $1m with a $100,000 deductable - that's what my landlord requires. There are so many commercial brokerages to go through that you just have to find one willing to work with you. Describing the space as a welding shop is simple, but not entirely accurate. You're not storing high pressure gases on site, you are working with stationary torches, there's no risk of electrical shock like with an Arc welder, no heavy steel being moved around....if have a clean legit shop then best bet is to set up meetings with various insurance brokers and let them see what you're doing. I'd say the biggest difference they'll consider between glass and welding is the fixed/stationary torch versus a hand held torch. If you have rigid lines and steel braided hoses running to your torches they're considered process equipment, and are much less hazardous than a hand held welding torch. Don't mention hand torches at all.... Don't mention hazardous fumes from the glass. If they ask about the ventilation explain it's for the combustion gases from the torch. Really a glass shop is considered light manufacturing, and I would argue it's more akin to a ceramics studio than a welding shop. Point out the kilns and delicate nature of the glass vs. the industrial heavy nature of a welding shop.

Good luck, and let me know who you get a policy from and what you're paying, I'll do the same if I get mine first.

-Doug

[jane clifton]

Here's my story:
Commercial building with giving public classes; 6 torches, furnace, glory hole, pipe warmer; 1 annealer and 2 kilns.
Liquid oxy outside in large SS container (very collectible to thieves). Bolted to wall with pad lock so that its removable when they exchange the tank. Like they said, you can't stop a determined thief, just deter them. Hard piped with Stainless (any other will sweat and rust) into building to central point at table and hoses from there with regulators for each torch. Propane hard piped as well. For me it was required by the city to be hard piped.
Insurance- my insurance agent gave me the name of another company that specializes in insurance for places with hazardous material. Runs about $1200.00 a year with 1mil liability. (Required by landlord, and just a good idea if you are going to be dealing with the public).

Thats my deal in NC

Jane

[jane clifton]

Also, while there is nothing in the code books about what we do, that just means they can make it up as they feel fit. If you argue, they will determine you are manufacuturing and cause you a BUNCH of shit. Beleive me I know!

Jane

[Greymatter Glass]

If you are taking a raw material and converting it into a finished product which is then sold to a third party you are by every definition in the book a manufacturer. You can't avoid that, but it shouldn't matter, much... key thing is don't have any employees and OSHA/NIOSH will stay off your back.

$1200 for your policy is GREAT, can you PM me the contact info for your insurer? I'm looking at >$4000 a year right now with Berger Briggs, and that's just silly if I can get something in your range.

As for making up code as they go along - no, they can't.... not without justification. You might have to arrange a meeting with the local zoning agency and code enforcers to figure out a solution, but they can't just make up things on the spur of the moment. They might try, but it's just smoke and mirrors. If you know a PE or a GC talk to them about it first, they usually know all the inspectors by first name and can work things out better than you can alone.


Anyways, if you can get me that info I'll be in your debt,

Thanks

-Doug

[Dale M.]

Also, while there is nothing in the code books about what we do, that just means they can make it up as they feel fit. If you argue, they will determine you are manufacuturing and cause you a BUNCH of shit. Beleive me I know!

Jane

Actually there is a set of rules called the National Fire Prevention Association code and it is accepted in all states and counties and most cities. And this sort of situation is covered in more than one industrial safety code enforcement set of rules....

http://www.nfpa.org/

Any person who says you "cant do" something, challenge them to cite chapter and paragraph that prohibits what ever it is... IF they can not provide documentation, it probably does not exist or "practice" is acceptable.

Dale

[jane clifton]

Sorry guys, been there done that and had a PE involved, and yes, if they think its a matter of public safety and there is no requirement, they CAN impose any requirement they want. Just spent 2.5 weeks dealing with this. They can site as a code requirement from the city or a matter of public safety. I could fight it, but that would just mean more time spent without a building permit. And whenyou have $20000.00 worth of equipment looking at you with nothing running, its easier to just do what they ask.
reality sucks.

[jane clifton]

Doug,
Just PM'd you

[Freerange Glass]

Here's what's happened so far. I called the fire marshal and I can have up to 100 lbs of propane and 400 lbs of compressed gas inside. So that's 5 20lb propane tanks and 4 oxygen tanks. This seems like a lot.
Then he said if it's liquid it has to be under 100 lbs (is that right?! - Did he mean 1000lbs?)

As for insurance, I went with a local insurance company and got $1,000,000 liability for $315 a year (doesn't cover contents).

As for the landlords concern, he isn't worried about it (the manger is), but he needs to check with his insurance regarding oxygen inside. It's been a couple of weeks since he said he'd check and I haven't heard back yet.

[Mike_Aurelius]

Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

Propane, regardless of anything, needs to be outside. If not for your safety then for the safety of the firefighters.

Ask any fireman -- and he/she will tell you that the fire marshall is full of shit. Once the pressure release on a 20# tank lets loose, you will have a 40' jet of fire coming out of the tank. It isn't pretty and it isn't safe.

Put the damn tank outside and be done with it.

[Freerange Glass]

Yeah, it was never a question of keeping the propane inside, it was a question of keeping the oxygen inside. Thanks.

[Glassroots]

I was gonna get my policy from Geico through another company and it is only a $100 for 1,000,000 coverage. I did not ask about my deductable but would assume it is pretty high. What do you guys think about that?

[yinzer]

Yeah, it was never a question of keeping the propane inside, it was a question of keeping the oxygen inside. Thanks.

:rollin:rollin:rollin

[hookedonsilicate]

There was a post on here where a person used a self made wood box that covered his propane tank and was accessable through a trap door or window. made me think what about camoflaging the tanks or even dummy lock. dummy camera . real camera etc just some thoughts

[SteppingRazor]

keep the propane tanks outside in a rubbermaid container filled with rattlesnakes.
~Joe

[glassheathen]

For your propane you can always put a couple of tie downs [think doggie tiedowns] and either chain 'em or use cable.............Mike