Know your competition

[Mac Maestro]

Just for conversation's sake, lets say that "WE" are independant pipemakers in America. (Hey Canadians! You can play too!) Doing our best to produce a living making fine glass products for consumers mostly in our own countries.

An for this conversation "THEY" are foriegn companies importing similar product into our countries and thus making them.... Our competition.


Here is the question:

Who are "THEY?"

[β]

I was wondering too, are there lots of sweat shops producing stuff, or is it one or two companies?

Are there just a couple of people in the US that are controlling the import market, or is it made up of a bunch of importers?

I'm a noob about this import stuff.

[Emmett's Glass]

I think alot of what we think of as imports is done by local people who undercut the market by pressure from imported shop owners.
E

[mer]

i know that there's a place here in town selling spoons and bowls for under $3 to distributers but when you see inside out for the same price it has to be imported.

[CitizenNot]

i don't know about you guys but imports have never hurt my sells, they improve them. if you inform people about american glass compared to imports they will most likely support you. i was at a small festival once that had a few importers there selling insideout spoons for 40 bucks. by the end of the weekend i was sold out somehow had a new torch and those importers had dropped their prices on those spoons to 8 bucks. they didn't like us very much:)

[β]

$3, jebus christos!

[VinE]

THEY are from malasia, india, mexico, and china.
THEY are a diverse bunch working in alot of different situations...
...some ok, some really bad.
THEY market to distributers by sending out e-mails, cold calls, and mailings. THEY will find a reputable company here in N.America and usually ship out a box of product free of charge; pendants,ashtrays,pipes,whatever.
The price per piece is low (usualy under $5), so once the retailers sell the free product they are happy to spend more money with the sweatshops, cause they know the product will move, and they will make a hefty profit (USUALLY 500-1000%).

[beachglass]

as far as i can tell there are quite a number of these shops overseas. some small, some huge. basically a north american guy will go over and find some lampworkers, show them what they need to know and he is in business. ive met a couple people who have done exactly that

truthfully, i dont hold it against them..we do live in a capitalist/consumerist society after all and they are offering a more affordable product. the quality is so low that i dont feel threatened all that much by it, and i feel it justifies the higher prices i (we) charge.

if somebody started shipping cars from china that you could buy for 1000 bucks brand new i would probably buy one, as well as millions of other people. but if i had the cash i would take a bimmer or benz any day

and ya i feel bad for whoever is making spoons for 3 bucks in north america, they would be better off importing, or learning some new skills

[beachglass]

btw the only time i am against these guys is when the people are working in deplorable, dangerous conditions. that is pure exploitation and is a whole different story....

[Mac Maestro]

We always talk about what they do and what they sell.

We never talk about who they are.

[mistahead]

yea..i totally read the question wrong...i think wonkas right on though.

[Meerkat]

When I often think of this question though, I think of why is the concept of a competitor seen as a regional thing by country rather than by some other dividing line ?

Right now its mostly seen as "those outside our country"

What about those those outside your state, city, zip code, etc... why are blowers in california not upset/concerned about the imports from oregon (for example). Really, whats the difference, an imaginary line is an imaginary line, I don't think it really should matter if your competition is the guy in the shop next door to you or in another country, it should be seen as the same thing.

A good example is, say you live in Washington state, would you consider a blower thousands of miles away in florida to not be competition, but you would consider someone just 50 miles away in Vancouver Canada to be your competition ?

My point is we should not be looking at this as "Oh this competition really sucks or is wrong or unfair because it is coming from china, india, or xyz". Rather what we should be saying is that it is unfair because it is coming from a sweat shop and is ruining the market wtih impossible to beat prices.

Also the other problem is that if the USA actually has legislation against sweat shop imports, then there should actually be teams of inspectors that go to inspect the factory for these conditions, even if they are overseas and say to the factory owner "if you want to import your product, you need to meet these labour regulations", simple as that. Plus something most countries do is to create a high tarrif on import products so that even if a really cheap product does come across the border, the tarrif adds so much cost to it that it sells the same for a locally produced item.

So in my opinion, we really should not make this an us against them, especially at a country level, because that just leads to flag waving and racism IMO. Rather we should be looking at why the government is not doing the job it should be doing to protect its citizens against sweat shop labour and cheap imports.

I know its hippyish, but lets not fight amongst ourselves, regardless of where we live, lets change the system.

[LaPlayaGlass]

Donna saw some pics that an importer we sometimes do business with had.
"They" were chineese folks of varying ages and crammed into small work booth type area, each area had a job or portion of a job. Ventilation was a big ass open space in the roof.
There were also pics of an apartment complex close by...surrounded by trash
fella said this is where the workers live...Donna said in a oh my frigging god tone OH REALLY. He then changed the story to well not these glass workers...Some other factory.
AL

[Mr. Wonka]

“They” are one of us, and some / many of you (albeit unknowingly) support them regularly.

[β]

I wonder how many people run regular glass businesses(supplies or product), but also do an import business.

[mer]

as the infamous xuli61 pointed out, it's not the "them" that make the glass that should concern us. it's the "them" that are actually us that bear the greatest part of the blame. the importers and shop owners that support this industry are the ones that are exploiting other glassblowers. without greedy opportunists in our country our fellow glassblowers at home and abroad would be getting paid enough to live the life that a skilled craftsperson deserves.

i'm more curious about those "them".

[β]

yes.....the elusive them. We need mugshots.

[gypsea]

even if THEIR workers earn much less than WE do, THEY must be able to buy their supplies for much less cost than WE can in order to be able to under cut OUR prices as severely as they do. How does that work anyway? They sell product for less than it costs US to make it....yet THEY must be making a profit in order to be in business.

[LaPlayaGlass]

A good example is, say you live in Washington state, would you consider a blower thousands of miles away in florida to not be competition, but you would consider someone just 50 miles away in Vancouver Canada to be your competition ?



I gotta disagree...
I guess it depends on your concept of competition.
At least within Canada and the USA you have to sell for a certain amount to be making a living, due to the costs of our materials and supplies.
It's more of a level playing field.
Sure there will always be some kid working in mom and dads garage undercutting.
Or someone else figuring to get rich by having a bunch of folks working in a factory setting, buying in bulk and pumping out the prodo.

But in reality not too many folks in North America can work for the wages from overseas...Some of the imported itrms are sold for close to what it would cost us for the material alone.

Just my opinions tho.
AL

[CitizenNot]

i wanted to quote merkat and wonka but it was to many words. alot of these people are just like us but they don't have the opportunities we have here in the states. i have talked to a lampworker in india and all he wants is to come here and expand his skills. some of you have gotten emails from him that you thought weird and he didn't speak very good english. you laughed at him, why? i don't know. i know for a fact that their are alot of great artist in these countries but all you people bitch and laugh at them because they are being exploited or don't have it "like us". so i think we should embrace these people with our knowledge and opportunities and take them as "ONE" because thats all we are. and Tom i would love to see someone from one of these countries have an opportunity to experience lampworking in the U.S. at agi

[ACE]

i wanted to quote merkat and wonka but it was to many words. alot of these people are just like us but they don't have the opportunities we have here in the states. i have talked to a lampworker in india and all he wants is to come here and expand his skills. some of you have gotten emails from him that you thought weird and he didn't speak very good english. you laughed at him, why? i don't know. i know for a fact that their are alot of great artist in these countries but all you people bitch and laugh at them because they are being exploited or don't have it "like us". so i think we should embrace these people with our knowledge and opportunities and take them as "ONE" because thats all we are. and Tom i would love to see someone from one of these countries have an opportunity to experience lampworking in the U.S. at agi

now now, lets be fair. i really don't want to stereotype people, but that one guy youre talking about is an exception to the rule when it comes to getting really shady emails from people with nothing but bad intentions. i remember that thread- and i think its great that he wants to better himself, that he wants sound advice on techniques and the like, im not being sarcastic, i really do think its great. maybe not a glass specific issue but internet scams are on the rise, and if i remember correctly the question that was being asked in that specific thread is weather or not it actually was a scam- i don't remember people making fun of him. but i could be wrong......

[CitizenNot]

my wife exchanged many emails with this fellow and he seamed quite honest. if it was a scam so fucking what, the point is that these people exist. they are lampworkers in fucked up conditions. it's the distributors that drive the machine not the peasants, and we are all peasants weather you like it or not. and before this community existed all those who worked glass were slaves to the ones that wanted this trade kept secret. well the secrets out of the bag and we've come to embrace all,so to that i say we except all these foreign lampworkers as you would anyone in the us or canada

[gypsea]

so who is driving is the question.....and who is on their insurance policy?

[CitizenNot]

somebody named shady

[Adapt]

Hey, CitizenNot, do you know where this guy's at in India? I ask because I hope to study abroad there through a program in my school next year. I'd be in New Delhi and would like to get a glimpse of the glass in India. Also, if you have his email, I'd like to get in touch with him.

andrew

[ACE]

bah humbug....nevermind, im just tired. probably from working in a sweatshop all day.

[ACE]

Hey, CitizenNot, do you know where this guy's at in India? I ask because I hope to study abroad there through a program in my school next year. I'd be in New Delhi and would like to get a glimpse of the glass in India. Also, if you have his email, I'd like to get in touch with him.

andrew
watch "glass india"

a tour of hot shops where children with no shoes throw blow pipes with molten glass over thier heads to the next kid.

the women make frit with no resperators.

its a great documentary.

[Mac Maestro]

haha Titty blisters.

You guys are waaaay off topic. Those individuals are not your competition. Those are workers that have somewhat parrellel situations as you. No one is hating on them, and the compassion and tolerance is good to hear.

YOU are competing with large american entities that import glass product by the container from overseas. I have never heard a discussion about these entities and was curious. But I guess no one knows.

[Kool]

...not to mention the titty blisters. that's right folks, titty blisters.....

Ouch. My wife had that happen. Get yourself some chest protection, yo. We tried to buy these kool t-shirts that had the section of kevlar sewn in across your chest, but places were all sold out. So instead I found an aluminized apron on ebay (cheap). She just cut it so it only goes down to her waist. And now her titties are happy again...and so am I. :)

Sorry to be off topic, Maestro, it's just she brought up titties, and, well, you know.

[Adapt]

Yeah, I was going to get a copy of Glass India, but it was too expensive for me...

[ShttrdSpctrm]

not to be off topic but .... PLEASE protect your titties, no blisters

[ACE]

Ouch. My wife had that happen. Get yourself some chest protection, yo. We tried to buy these kool t-shirts that had the section of kevlar sewn in across your chest, but places were all sold out. So instead I found an aluminized apron on ebay (cheap). She just cut it so it only goes down to her waist. And now her titties are happy again...and so am I. :)

Sorry to be off topic, Maestro, it's just she brought up titties, and, well, you know.

LOL... i actually have an aluminized apron but its a bit heavy, and as i mentioned, its very very small room so its a little too hot for it... oh well. ive seen those shirts your talking about too!! i forgot where. but lets say i bought one then i'd have to wear it everyday? thats one smelly shirt.

i don't want to sound like im complaining, thats why i deleted that whole thing.....but we all make judgement calls, every day we all have choices. to my knowledge there is no threat to anyones life for leaving their poor working conditions.... just the chance they might not get another job.

[Meerkat]

as the infamous xuli61 pointed out, it's not the "them" that make the glass that should concern us. it's the "them" that are actually us that bear the greatest part of the blame. the importers and shop owners that support this industry are the ones that are exploiting other glassblowers. without greedy opportunists in our country our fellow glassblowers at home and abroad would be getting paid enough to live the life that a skilled craftsperson deserves.

i'm more curious about those "them".

Thats another very good point. I really feel it is so wrong that these issues are often ones of nationalism and patriotism. People just want to have someone to shake their fist at that is far away and looks different, some place to throw the blame. Really it doesn't matter if its chinese, indian or whatever.. its not a group issue, its an individual issue. The guys who run and own the factory, the guys who run and own the headshops and as I said the government not doing it's job.

Here in Australia they have this TV show about border security, its actually pretty fun to watch to see how they catch all the people trying to smuggle drugs in sneaky ways. But they had this one episode where they found these huge shipping containers (big as semi trucks) filled with Billabong clothing. Billabong is a very popular Australian clothing company. The customs guys spent a lot of time inspecting the shipment, looking at the stitching, labels, silk screening quality, etc.. and determined they were counterfeit and had them destroyed instead of allowing them into the country, because allowing low cost, low quality imports into the country would hurt the real company's business. And they do this for everything as Australian customs inspects every single package that comes into the country.

I don't see why something similar can not be done with pipes. Granted glass pipes would not be seen as counterfeit, unless they were trying to pass themselves off as a brand name like Roor.

But there is no reason why customs of our respective countries could not inspect packages and factories and require labour regulations at the factories and for them to know the average price of various products (as customs have huge databases of all this kind of stuff) and know that if huge shipments of pipes (or whatever) are coming in and are declared on the customs forms as being too low cost, then that would raise a red flag to inspect the importer for being a sweat shop.

[nickglassdood]

i see an indian dood selling imported inside out and full color work in maine

i thnk hes scared of us when he sees us at the same shops

dots not feathers indian

[Meerkat]

I gotta disagree...
I guess it depends on your concept of competition.

Thats my whole point is that it depends on your concept of competition. Where I live right now, I have no competition except that from imports, there is just hardly any lamp workers here and of those that exist, very few are pipe makers, I only know of one other person in the whole country.

If I was living back home in Vancouver, I would see my competition as the local blowers and having to compete with their skills, which are much better than mine, the imported spoons and such would really not be my concern.

Thats why I think its really wrong and just a catch-all to say "its all them foreigner's fault". To me, at least, competition is a much more personal thing. But then also I am one of those people that is really non-patriotic and to this day really don't like or understand the concept of having to live within these imaginary boundaries on the planet.

[Meerkat]

even if THEIR workers earn much less than WE do, THEY must be able to buy their supplies for much less cost than WE can in order to be able to under cut OUR prices as severely as they do. How does that work anyway? They sell product for less than it costs US to make it....yet THEY must be making a profit in order to be in business.

I wonder that myself, my only guess is that the factory owner is able to buy in large enough bulk that the price drops way way way down. I've looked into bulk buying of some non-glass related things and most of these companies are always willing to cut the price further and further, the more and more you buy, sometimes you have to haggle... its like "well I know you said that was your lowest distributor price, but what if I buy 100,000 units...." and they will drop it down but say that they are making almost no profit now and that is as low as they could ever go, but then if you ask them for a lower price if you buy 500,000 or a million units, they drop it even more.... so thats my guess is that it is done through extremly massive bulk buying.

[SNYD]

I like the topic of who THEY are lets stay on that. For example who is This Guy (http://www.hotlavaglass.com) They claim at first that it is all made here in Hawaii and when I ask them about wholesale prices and they come back with 7 to 10 a pendant I call bullshit and give the guy major hell and say there is no way he is making all this shit on THIS Island for that price. Then he tells me well I do all the big sculptures and the rest I have guys on the mainland who make them. So who makes these 10 dollar pendants? Anyone here? Which brings me to another point. Should I be pissed off that lampers on the mainland get there gas for 1/4 what I pay and they have stuff in every Gallery out here? No I'm not pissed as long as the people selling it are HONEST AND TRUTHFUL about who made the Product. That is my only beef is the assholes who are THEY that lie through there teeth and SAY yes I made this product by hand my self and don't give the person who really made it any credit. I don't care what cuntry you are in! We all have hands and we all have a mouth. If we can't use our hands to feed our mouth what should be do? Use our Feet?
Peace
Nate

[β]

So i hear one of the larger glass/tool supply companies are also one, if not the largest, importers of glass pipes from India. This is someone who we buy our glass and tools from and even posts on this board.

Import pipes are like a train you can't stop, but why should WE support THEM through buying this person's lampworking supplies?

[Glacier_Arts_Studio]

So i hear one of the larger glass/tool supply companies are also one, if not the largest, importers of glass pipes from India. This is someone who we buy our glass and tools from and even posts on this board.

Import pipes are like a train you can't stop, but why should WE support THEM through buying this person's lampworking supplies?


wow, thats some really shitty kinda shit there... :wes: :tantrum:
and i would never do business with anyone thats known to be doing such a thing...
like i said before in one of my responses to mr. "x", i am willing to pay more for
things (materials & supplies) that are made in this country and i am willing to do
without on things that are imported... if i need or really want some color tube, i
can do as i was taught and blow it out...

[Glacier_Arts_Studio]

and don't get me wrong on this, i really love the asian and indian poeples
and i would only show respect for them in their country or, my country...
but, i will never give respect to anyone, american or other, thats making
a fortune from under cutting any industry buy, using what i see as slave
labor...

[Glacier_Arts_Studio]

we still (or at least i) don't know who they are thats importing these items
that we see everywhere...

[ech]

A long time ago when when it was EZboard I posted something about a conversation I was privy to in which a person who owns a large materials supply company had admitted that they had traveled to China and taught glass pipe making to the Chinese. The post was immediately removed. When I asked why, I was basically told that we can't talk about such things.

Moving right along I don't know how they do it anywhere else but in India most glass blowers are independent or are of some sort of co-op. They buy materials and gas and make pipes in their little tin shack or whatever and then take them to a distributor who pays them very little for their work. There is alot of sweatshop labor but thats really just independent glassblowers taking in street kids, teaching them how to make pipes and then enslaving them. Some one I know went to Nepal and they said there they are all independent blowers working out of their shacks or slum houses or whatever and they sell them indendently, in open markets, to importers and distributors. My friend told me they saw a several Americans in the market buying lots of glass for import into the USA.
That is all I know about Them

[andrew brown]

hot lava glass is all made in thailand, bangkok to be exact. i was asked to teach "color" to there factory for good money.. i could not see the benifit so i said no. the shop is in hawaii and he had a booth at bead and button.. trying to sell glass trinkets to an art market.. he also said that everything was designed by him and made in hawaii..
i was checking out the work on the table and was told it was all made in hawaii. as soon as i told him who i was and that he had just called about teaching, the truth about thailand came out.. shady!!
he even came up to our booth and told harold and bryan that it was all made in the hawaii, when i was standing right there, just after he told me about thailand..

[Blacksheep]

just about everything is built or componants are done out of country
why?- cheaper to produce whatever it is
so who are THEY ? big business ,corporations ,banks unions government ?
that allow this to happen not to mention consumers that due to over taxation have to buy the cheap products to survive .
dont lay blame on folks over seas poorer than you, doing what they can to eek a living out
in this day and age its all mapped out to simply keep the rich rich and the poor poor
take a long look in your own backyard
who are they -who imports everything -who send jobs out due to it being too expensive to make here ,raw materials , power ,etc etc etc all are at an inflated price due to economy, cost of living,inflation. these things have made wages go up constantly so everything else does as well, all the way to it being to costly now to
produce stuff in our own countrys
Who are THEY? simply "the have's and the have more's"
:practice:

[β]

i accept the current free market with regards to globalization and trade, but the question is who in our community is perhaps playing both sides. This isn't a witch hunt, but rather to inform consumers about making purchases in the market that they might be reluctant to if the information was present.

I think all of us accept that if the iphone was made in the US, it would cost as much as a nice laptop. But, i think this community would take a second look at someone who is supporting American artists to then turn around and sell $3 IO spoons. I think that someone hedging there bet is a smart move financially, but lets let the customers decide where they want to place there business.

[Blacksheep]

ahhh i see well not really the question was more general about foreign countrys importing similar items
foreign countrys dont import they export there has to be an importer in the destination country from there usually distributers,& retailers
all of the latter are here
all supplyers carry the color tube isnt it all from asia? woul they be the same as anyone selling both imports and locally produced glass?
i suppose i wouldnt support anyone further smearing the grey areas but this is begining to be like beating a dead horse

[CCody]

THEY are everywhere!

[Din]

There is an importer here (in BC, at least) by the name of Red Eye (or maybe Redeye, whatever) glass. Their logo is a maple leaf with an eye in it, which, it seems to me, endeavors to appeal to buyer's sense of nationalism (a technique of salesmanship applied to a sickening degree in Canada) to increase sales. While not directly dishonest, this particular importer is insidious beyond measure.
I think that this is a relatively small operation though, and I get the impression that such is the case for many of these pipe importers.

[Brian Newman]

Redeye sells work all across Canada. Not quite as big as Dragonluck, but big enough.

[mistahead]

redeye IS a relatively small operation in the grand scheme of things..but not in the glass pipe world, i would go as far as to estimate they mave anywheres from 1-4 million( just a guess) dollars worth of glass pipes in canada a year, probably with a pretty signifigant profit margin on that as well, red eye is in almost every convenience store out here in ontario, and i have seen atleast some of there products in almost every headshop across canada........in this case THEY are white collar canadians, who are taking advantage of our leniant lax border policies, aswell as taking advantage of many aspects of our global market.

[NUBBLET]

THEY are the jackyls , that all want what you got.

I will hit some shops that carry some imports . I still sell my work for more (even if the pattern is simular , my quality is way better) , and have gone back to many to see my work gone and neede and the import CRAP still chillin .
I always see folds and crap even cracks before .
I have even got a little snippy or smart assish , when shops pull some of that crap out and say they get it cheaper from ........ and the pattern is the same or simular, I am quick to tear the imports apart (THEY SUCK) trying to keep it not flat rude ( even though I have been) .

I for the most part say other countries may make or build it cheaper and quicker , but the USA makes it better and stronger. I will involve our canadian folks with us , we are all north America .

[Berferker]

Well I don't know about any of you guys but when all that operation sucks ass thing went down I noticed a huge increase in the amount of these import slave labor type pipes...interesting timing maybe?

I also was approached by a chinese woman about 3 years back. I actually had some conversations over email and phone with her and the people she worked for and I was offered some type of job to travel to some Chinese factory and teach pendant making to thier workers and head glassmakers. I was told I would be paid some .XXXXX% of each item ever sold that I directly had a hand in the intruction of or drawings etc. I was offered a set amount of one time pay for this and full expenses paid trip...housing, food, transportaion blah blah blah to do this. You know I was so very tempted...very. In the end I told them NO. I had thought long and hard on this and realized I would be contributing to this very problem we all have in the states and possibly a slave labor shop. FK that.

I'm sure eventually they got someone else to do this...FK that person also.

Just my thoughts on all of this.


Toby....

[Berferker]

Oh yeah I forgot that I was also told that the factory that needed pendant intruction also made thier own type of boro and had oxygen generating systems etc. and there is another way thier cost was very low...wheeeeeeeeeeeeee.

[Snurf]

Red eye glass is a real "brown eye" in my books

[Chris Carlson]

names!!!

[Braden Hammond]

I'm down with rat dog .... dirty brown eye glass........smmmaarrryyyy....

[β]

What if:

A- There is a distributor who sells pipemakers their materials.
B- This money is used to finance an import business that hurts the people buying the materials and selling finished product.

ARE we supposed to keep patronizing this company that supplies stores and other smaller import wholesalers/distributors that hurt the pipe industry?

[Sodor Glass Works]

I think that if you are a true artist and try to inovate the importers will all ways be many,many steps behind.

[Sodor Glass Works]

who is this distriubuter they will not get my money if I find out.

[Glacier_Arts_Studio]

What if:

A- There is a distributor who sells pipemakers their materials.
B- This money is used to finance an import business that hurts the people buying the materials and selling finished product.

ARE we supposed to keep patronizing this company that supplies stores and other smaller import wholesalers/distributors that hurt the pipe industry?

the short answer, fuck no...!!!
if i have a choice in it, which i always do,
i'll not spend my money with anyone doing that...
that would be like giving gunman, the bullet that
he is going to use to shoot you with...

[Bglass]

whos buying the stuff and supporting the market of imports???... every single shop that carries soft glass tubes. anyone with money can buy them for 2 to 10 bucks a tube, drill them and make anywhere from 25 bucks off that 2 and 110 off them just reselling them as whole sale....
you can ship them from what i have seen as bead curtains(onies strung) or just plain old vases.

so who?, up here you can go to hempfest and see litterally the most soft glass youll ever see period... hempfest up here i consider just a open glass and ganja mall, hardly anything to about hemp or a movement. you can go there and 10 to 1 youll see soft glass tubes most of all being sold and looked at. its crazy.....
so who again??? about 100 vendors all trying to do the same thing....



when there is a lot of money involved concepts of the greater good fly out the window, always!!!

not only are the sweat shops filled with those of that company and country but over there, you can find over a couple of hand fulls of peeps blowing glass that came here from the states, australia and new zealand. you go over there and there is a set limit depending on your skills. you get paid in american money and every month you have to leave for a week and come back to go to work so you always have a visa.
so in a third world country your actually making bank.... so not only is it the sweat shoppers but greedy people like you and i....
its one big mess and will hardly change because of the money..

those companys over there are funded by huge bankers from switzerland and all over europe even here in the states. it not hard to find their names and they usually know people here in the states considering they know how to tap out, and someone here picks up huge amounts of glass, whatever they want and boom back over to where it goes.... and so it goes....
so thats who and how and where and a little why.... vaguely and as much as i know.... kinda.....
hope that help serve some answeres and dosent debate it.

[SNYD]

hot lava glass is all made in thailand, bangkok to be exact. i was asked to teach "color" to there factory for good money.. i could not see the benifit so i said no. the shop is in hawaii and he had a booth at bead and button.. trying to sell glass trinkets to an art market.. he also said that everything was designed by him and made in hawaii..
i was checking out the work on the table and was told it was all made in hawaii. as soon as i told him who i was and that he had just called about teaching, the truth about thailand came out.. shady!!
he even came up to our booth and told harold and bryan that it was all made in the hawaii, when i was standing right there, just after he told me about thailand..

Thank you andrew! I thought this was the truth! Shady is right! The thing that really gets to me is people think I'm making the shit and ask me to fix it when they have a broken turtle. It also sucks to have to tell the person that thinks they bought a pendant that was made in hawaii that its from Thailand. If you come out here agian let me know. I'd love to have you by the shop!
Peace
Nate

[The Cheese]

I had actually looked at importing pipes from overseas. I did some research and realized that when they went through customs they may be confiscated. Seemed to me that I'd lose more than I'd gain. They do offer excellent prices, but we all know how that CAN turn out.

If you want to see what they're doing goto www.alibaba.com and search glass pipes. All kinds of stuff comes up.

I'm glad that I decided to get started doing it myself. Seems like there is a lot more to gain by working a piece start to sale than there is in buying one for $2 and selling it for $40. Call me nuts, but I'd rather KNOW that it's a good product each time I sell it. DISCLAIMER - I still am not even setup to blow glass, but I understand how crafts(wo)men are as I used to do custom trim work in homes. I cannot attest to the actual thrill of blowing some molten goop, but I can say that I take pride in what I do and I look forward to doing it with pipes. So there...

And enjoy alibaba - all kinds of great stuff on there. Lots of horror stories about people getting ripped off too!

I'm all about supporting the people of the world, but when people in our own country are losing out due to cheap foreign competitors I start to feel a little ashamed about being a greedy american.

[Blacksheep]

What if:

A- There is a distributor who sells pipemakers their materials.
B- This money is used to finance an import business that hurts the people buying the materials and selling finished product.

ARE we supposed to keep patronizing this company that supplies stores and other smaller import wholesalers/distributors that hurt the pipe industry?

A -at a handsome profit immmmmm sure
B-NO Fuck NO
C-if this is the issue at hand Post the disttributers Name or PM the info to all who inquire for it -wouldnt it help if more folks new ?

asian glass is sold by most dist's but its different i suppose being raw materials .also the only color tube available? also pretty cheap
ive considered useing the chinex or cheap clear being a newby i pretty much fuck it all up anyhow but in the end decided against it except for the color tube. ive had the color explode etc and figure i dont need more issues learning with substandard glass .perhaps less explosions /cracking etc will help me learn faster .i wouldnt use it when i coulod make decent items anyway so whay learn its propertys at all.stickin with simax .

selling supplys to local artists then importing finished products sure isnt supporting the people supporting him ! kinda slimy .
i wouldnt patronize this establishment on principle when there are others really behind the community. they deserve the support!

oh & yeah red eye eh never seen the stuff but i bet i dont come anywhere near a showcase full of local made stuff!
theres always those lookin for a CHEAP pos pipe but i htink the same amnt or more lookin for quality they have a long way to go to even be in the same class as a Rat dog piece or many many more in the vancouver area and beyond

[nickglassdood]

when i ate the chinese glass i tripped out but ya

the indian dood around here is like 45 and named umm sumtin like sanjay or sanhay er sumtin he got inside out sherlok bubs for 15 kinda janky allright and outside work fer wicked cheep..........there getting better

i buy em and tho hetty millies all over em j/k

[melt]

I lived in Eugene in 99 and saw Americans going to India to set up shops to import. I would not be surprised to learn that most of the shops overseas have used this forum for training.

back to the question of they, i think they are greedy Americans.

[The Cheese]

back to the question of they, i think they are greedy Americans.

I didn't do it, I swear! The guy wanted me to send him $2500 first... He sent me a photo from DHL's website when I asked him for a picture of what he was going to send me!

[andrew brown]

It is capitalist americans that are doing this.. To them it is a business, and nothing more. you call it greed but business is business to some.

there is at least one big name person on this board that does exactly what we are talking about..

I was in oakland doing the bay area bead show, and met ----- --------. Harold and I talked to him for a while. He had a great and impressive work history, working for major production houses and has been in the scene for a long time.
This person came to the show, bought peoples wholesale minimum and made some peoples show financially.. Well he told us that he, and his people ran a mall kiosk and were buying peoples best selling items to see how a jewelry cart would do that winter.. He really took everyones best selling pieces, to try to see which pieces would sell the best so they could get sent to a factory in china and copied. The sad part is i saw him buy and make the day of a fusing friend, these people work hard to innovate and have an american come and take their livelyhood away.

you know how the story goes..
so what sells the best at the test kiosk will get MASS produced to fill kiosks around the country, possibly the world. Sorry to good friends that work hard to innovate, it hurts that the people doing this know exactly what they are doing.

i guess it comes down to integrity. many of product is made overseas and sold here. In our small community it is easier to feel the impact..

Andrew

[nickglassdood]

i bet its the same people selling them there supplies as buying there product ya think???

[nasty]

anyone with money can go over seas and rent a warehouse and cheap labor and manufacture glass. the "they" that i have met and know are regular distributors that carry our stuff too. they mostly do bussiness over their to find cheaper stuff. i used to think it was really bad, i still do, i don't support them but now that i have educated myself. i realized that alot of what i probably own is imported as well, from kids in sweatshops...shoes, clothes, jewelery....the kids are not our competition, they have no idea what role they play in our scene.if you don't like what is happing with the import glass, u should look to the people who we get our supplies from, who taught those kids...and the distributors that we deal with on a regular basis who buy that shit from these guyz...i often refused to sell the stuff we had gotten from the import distrubutors, it's hard to get away from it though. i knew some glass blowers that even went over their hooked up with thailand wifes got a warehouse started producing found a good entry point and used our company and other distributor companys to sling that shit....

[andrew brown]

us glass distributers are sending glass supplies overseas . I know hot lava glass is a "distributer" for another us distributer for their factory in thailand. So America is supplying our own competition.
Factorys can afford to buy bulk supplies, getting a better price. Far far below our own.
This is a double edge sword. If you manufactured color and had the opportunity to make 50% more you probly would, its in your business plan.
I only wonder what they are paying for american made color... Ive seen 4mm color on pieces imported from china recently. That means we are in a global market now.

[The Cheese]

I just got back from Amsterdam a couple weeks ago. All of their shops in the downtown area are packed with CHEAP priced pipes. Bought a little peanut spoon for 5 euros. Started out to 20e and when i told him I was just looking for a disposable he offered it to me for 5. Fumed, little bit of i/o work. Thick glass. Really nice looking piece. Had to of been an import, I can't see anyone living in that city making/selling 5e pipes unless they were buying them for 1e.

[The Glass Fish]

So who are these distributors selling us supplies while they undersell our finished work? Some of you seem to know, but why not say? I have seen people on this board say awful things about one another, some true, some not. I have seen "shenannigens" called. Is it too hot for a public forum, or are you afraid of retribution? I like all of the suppliers I use but would not hesitate for a second to stop using all of the ones that import on the side.

Message me names please... I think all of us in the dark would like to know.

[Zed]

I think the deal is that there is one BIG company who went over and set up sweat shops. I don't know if he still does this, but his company sells alot of peoples products and tools, and hooks up discounts to GLDG members ect... so therefore no one wants to out this company publically. But alot of people here know who he is.

None of this really matters though, as the import ball is rolling and I doubt it will ever stop. Strive to make unique work and leave the prodo for the importers. Or rise above pipes and make something else, get into the art world, or the bead world or whatever makes you happy. Strive to make something that no one else can make. Paul Stankard will never ave to worry about imports because no one can make what he makes.

[The Glass Fish]

I've been lamping for more than a decade. Glass is my sole (soul) income. I do pipes also, but kinda a side thing, only 5-8 thousand dollars/year. I have felt the pressure of "them" way longer than pipers have. What do you think many of the import pipe makers did prior to pipes? Lampwork.

I was set up in a mall many years back and this import store opened up 6 weeks till x-mas with thousands of glass figurines. I was worried at first, but we still did great. I held my own against the power of China by selling a better product. I had a customer bring my broken chinese glass to fix and I told them $10. "That's all I paid for it" she said. I told her, "you get what you pay for."

I have thought about those foreign glass workers for years. Do they stay up at night kept awake because images of potential projects won't let them sleep? Do they make the same welds over and over again untill they can do it flawlessly on the first try? Do they think of buying/making better tools to expand their horizons? Do they? Some must. They are just people like us, all different, but with a common thread: glass.

I spent a lot of time demonizing the chinese lampers in my own mind for years. I am too old to hate strangers any longer. Have you ever thought about being in competition with cell phones? I pay over $100/mo for two lines. Ten years ago I would have laughed at that. What other "necessities" weren't necessary even a few years ago. We are all in competition with everybody for that elusive "disposable income". The markets are always changing. I change. We all need to in order to survive.

So, who are "they"?


I don't care anymore.

[nickglassdood]

^
word

[puddletown]

how many of you people out there that complain about importers go to Wal-Mart to buy stuff?

Same damn situation.

What if you could buy containers full of raw materials? and then pay your workers next to nothing? I'll bet you could sell your products pretty cheap.

[andrew brown]

well said fish

[glassblowingBiker]

Fish that was the best response i heard in a long time Thanks Peace Jeff

[diglassworks]

so is anyone going to tell us who this distributor/importer is?

[3 rip min]

does it matter??? are you going to call them names and tell them that you dont like it??

nice post, fish.. its nice to see some smart people around here...

i could careless about what someone who shops at walmart thinks about pipe importers.. HAHAHAHAH!!!!!

we should all be happy that we are able to do what we do...

[diglassworks]

does it matter??? are you going to call them names and tell them that you dont like it??

nice post, fish.. its nice to see some smart people around here...

i could careless about what someone who shops at walmart thinks about pipe importers.. HAHAHAHAH!!!!!

we should all be happy that we are able to do what we do...



No, I'm not here for name calling. I don't have much of a track record of starting sh*t on here... But I would rather support another company than someone who is fucking their own customers.

Fish did have many good points, and I agree with most of them...
but I'd still like to know and I'm sure a lot of other people would as well.

We should all be happy about many things we've been blessed with... and yes sometimes I do shop at Walmart, when I'm broke (we've all been there), I'd be willing to bet you've shopped at Walmart too. The difference here is while doing so I consciously know what I'm buying and who they're supporting.

[e-jipt]

yea I think it's pretty obvious why people would want to know, but I also think it's kinda obvious that we aren't going to be told...

[Zed]

Last time this topic came up like 1.5 yrs ago, the company who did this was outed... I *think* I remember them saying that they weren't doing this anymore, and were out of the import business, so I guess those in the know have decided to let sleeping dogs lie.

If you search hard enough you should be able to find the thread(s) about this.

I just flipped a coin about if I should say or not, and it came up negative, plus I don't have 1st hand knowledge of this, just a hazy memory of the previous thread and the fact that the person being called out never denied any of it, even though he saw it all.

EDIT: the thing about all of this to me is that the whole import thing is capitalism at its best (or worst, depending your your POV), and that is the religion of most Americans. Yes it hurts people, but its really the American system, not the guy importing if you catch my drift. Pipemakers are only experencing now what LOTS of other industries have been dealing with for years... ask a unemployed auto worker from Detroit what they think about imports.

EDIT 2X: maybe the auto import thing was a bad analogy, as American manufacturers haven't made a deecent vehicle since the 70's. When American cars get as good gas mileage and maintence as Toyotas or Honda's, I'll buy one.

[jeves311]

yo my integra's engine just died at 140k all maintenence done at acura, I kept care of it. Timing belt snapped and bent my valves while I was driving to generations. I will never buy a japanese car again, I got a ford ranger now with almost no miles on it for the same price I got my integra with 80k on it. If it lasts up to 70k it will last longer than my integra lol.

[Mac Maestro]

I've done a decent amount of learning since this thread started. On and off the forum.

I've been able to talk to many people including the guy that is always accused of importing. (The one people keep eluding to from this board) Every time someone brings up importing, he seems to take a lot of blame. Turns out, he hasn't imported pipes in a long time. He was involved in the past, but seems to have no connnection since 2003ish. Yes, he now sells imported items, but I'd like you to find me any glass distributer that doesn't. Capitalism: It's the name of the game when the field becomes global.

I still believe people need to know their competition. A lot of it seems to be regional, though. Ask your shops next time you visit who they get their imports from. There are little companies EVERYWHERE owned by both americans and foriegn/americans. Or go to any Vegas trade show. You will see their booths, and you can watch them buy new items to try and replicate overseas.

They have advantages like buying power: Larger companies with capital up front can order tons of glass at a reduced cost. Buy liquid tanks instead of leasing or renting or just buy oxygen generators. Cheap labor. The list goes on.
They also have disadvantages. Imagine trying to make a quality product in poor conditions with crappy tools and the power keeps going out every 15 minutes. We have it good, and really can't complain.

What we SHOULD do, In my humble opinion, is work with others and help each other out. Watch each others back and make sure our suppliers don't hand us the short end of the stick in a market that WE created. We still have a say in how this biz operates, and should keep the lines of communication open and keep our companies accountable for the decisions they make...

[andrew brown]

the person everyone is accusing has nothing to do with it, and is a good friend.. it is pointless to name names.. why not name names of people not importing or exporting to sweat shops. i think that would be a harder list. i think thats the point
well put maestro

[β]

the person everyone is accusing has nothing to do with it, and is a good friend.. it is pointless to name names.. why not name names of people not importing or exporting to sweat shops. i think that would be a harder list. i think thats the point
well put maestro

exactly...

If someone is dead certain about avoiding businesses that deal with the importing and exporting of labor/goods, go to the beach, get some sand, and melt it as someone recently said.

You can't avoid it, but you can familiarize yourself with the business. Knowledge is infectious.

[diglassworks]

I've done a decent amount of learning since this thread started. On and off the forum....



I still believe people need to know their competition......


What we SHOULD do, In my humble opinion, is work with others and help each other out. Watch each others back and make sure our suppliers don't hand us the short end of the stick in a market that WE created. We still have a say in how this biz operates, and should keep the lines of communication open and keep our companies accountable for the decisions they make...


Word, I'll second that....


What's done is done. I thought this was still going on. I was trying to find out to know who NOT to support. I just wanted to add that supplier to the list, but I guess it's old news ( I should check dates on posts, but when you see them on the front....)

[boxfan willy]

I have been observing this thread, and I will stand on my soapbox, which is made in China. Oh, by the way my drawers, joggers and T=shirt are Hecho en Mexico(all given to me or bought used from the thrifty). My bomb ass hemp shoes were made in China and the delicious bucky-bucks that I am sipping on comes from South America. Oh shit, my f%)#*%g coffe cup is made in China, damn.

Well, let me try some more soapbox. All me clear glass is, ummmm, oh shit, that all comes from Chec, Germany or China. Damn, where is my soapbox! Well, I'll buy some Kimble. Oh, you mean it's owned by the Germans. I thought it was in New Jersey. Well then, let's do some Corning. Why does it have Japanese writing on it. Where is my f@(%$&@$ soapbox!

When it comes down to the eunuchification(nice term for "nutcutting"), the only supplies we can purchase that are made in America is color(NS,GA,Momka, Acme), Dichroics(CBS and DA), Kilns and, thank God, a good number of hand tools.
If these few companies did not do some type of intl. biz, then some could lose profitability and 5 years later our color, dichroic and tooling choices could all be coming from overseas.

It is a global economy. The dollar is poor and some glassblowers might soon find their glass more profitable in European gift shops than to keep fighting consignment bullshit from American galleries and gift shops. Would you say no if given the opportunity and you had two late mortgage bills sitting on the shop counter? None of us are innocent. More less than others, agreed.

I know this "guy" everyone has alluded to. I am not ashamed to say he is a good friend of mine. I know personally that he has purchased assloads of American made product, from many people including myself. It is also my opinion that he quit imporitn pieces years ago.

There is no triad or syndicate that controls import pipes. There are so many people bringing that shite in that it would amaze us all. Everyone from the Indian cat, to the greedy American reseller, to the greedy American glassblower. I knew one guy in my area that would buy assloads of that shit and sit around putting blingers and critters and put a made in the USA sticker. I personally relieved him of his stickers. My point in all of this is that it is good for us to be aware, but this is going on ramapantly everywhere and it is almost better to investigate your own sales territory for situations, then handle responsibly and accordingly. REGULATORS RIDE!!!(you see the size of them damn chickens) or (we're in the spirit world. They can't see us) sorry, it's early.

Last point, whether I agree with imports or not, my sales have increased with the rise in imports. I do not make a $4 piece. I am glad someone else does. I am hoping that the customer buying the $4 import today is buying my $15 piece a couple of years down the road. There is no substitute for quality and I don't plan on getting a McJob. My good friend Harold Cooney has a tradition that when he becomes discouraged with his glassblowing career, he will go out and fill out McJob applications. After 3 or 4 interviews, he is back on the torch, counting his blessings and working his American ass off. We are blessed.

Ok, I'm shipping my soapbox back to China.

boxfan

[Conchis]

I think you can get more euros for that soapbox, but I agree with what you had to say.

[Zed]

One thing I'd like to say as well... If someone hadn't imported ganja seeds and smoking lore from India sometimes in the past, would there even be a market for glass pipes today?

I think its funny, alot of what is in this thread is the same things that guy from the Czech Republic was saying and he got alot of hate for that post and it got pulled pretty quick. I someone still has that they should repost it, as I believe it was at least 80% correct. No one could debate him on the facts so he just got hated on, lame.

All of this is really beside the point IMO, whether you hate imports or not doesn't make a damn bit of difference, they're still here to stay.