A "modest" proposal

[Mike_Aurelius]

I've been pondering the state of associations for glassworkers lately, and it has come to my mind that perhaps what is needed is an all-inclusive organization that will encompass all aspects of glass working, not just certain specialized niches.

I'd like to propose the IGWG: The International Glass Workers Guild -- dedicated to the proposition that *ALL* glassworkers deserve to have an equal voice.

I don't want to get into the nuts and bolts of how the organization would operate, but I would like your ideas on how such an organization could help you as a glass worker.

What would you like to see an organization do?
What should it not do?

Think of this process as creating a "mission statement"...

[diglassworks]

The IGWG should at least make all efforts that it's intentions are for the best of the people actually working the glass and the glassworking community as a whole. It's also nice to say you're a member to distros and get discounts.

that seem a little too obvious?

[jiminyrootkit]

is there a FOG in here all of a sudden?
i seem to remember this line of conversation going seriously south last time it was opened.
best of luck.
-f

[Mike_Aurelius]

Nope -- FOG was vendors getting together "helping"...I am talking about glassworkers themselves getting together.

[PyroChixRock]

this doesn't sound like fog at all so far.

[Greymatter Glass]

http://www.glassart.org/



The Glass Art Society (GAS) is an international nonprofit organization founded in 1971 whose purpose is to encourage excellence, to advance education, to promote the appreciation and development of the glass arts, and to support the worldwide community of artists who work with glass. GAS members are artists, students, educators, collectors, gallery and museum personnel, writers, and critics, among others. Membership is open to anyone interested in glass art.

member since 2001... I need to renew.

See you all in Portland.

-Doug

[Greymatter Glass]

that seem a little too obvious?

I think it seemed obvious in 1971

[Racer X]

Like Jonathan Swifts A Modest Proposal, I suggest everyone start eating their children and homeless.

[Mike_Aurelius]

For the most part, GAS is membered by traditional glass blowers, casters, kiln workers etc. Yes, they do support "some" lampworking, but the main focus, especially by those on the board, is toward the "furnace arts" and not the torch.

[Greymatter Glass]

Jesus Mike. Do you even read your own posts?



I've been pondering the state of associations for glassworkers lately, and it has come to my mind that perhaps what is needed is an all-inclusive organization that will encompass all aspects of glass working, not just certain specialized niches.

I'd like to propose the IGWG: The International Glass Workers Guild -- dedicated to the proposition that *ALL* glassworkers deserve to have an equal voice.

I don't want to get into the nuts and bolts of how the organization would operate, but I would like your ideas on how such an organization could help you as a glass worker.

What would you like to see an organization do?
What should it not do?

Think of this process as creating a "mission statement"...

And when was the last time you went to a GAS conference? I don't recall seeing you at any of them I've been to... I missed Boston and St louis tho, maybe you were there... but by then it should have been clear that GAS is open and accepting of lampworkers and other forms of art glass. in their conference galleries and auctions I see more than 50% of the work is _NOT_ kiln cast or blown in a hot shop. there's a lot of neon and fused glass, some stained glass, some cut glass and crystal work, and TONS of lampworking, with more every year.

All your plan sounds like to me is a group that is for lampworkers primarily.... yet you say you want to include everyone... which is it? niche or no niche?


....I have no problem with someone brainstorming an idea.... but to base so much of your idea on the pretense that GAS is for off-hand / hot shop workers is doing yourself a disservice... if it's only in wasting your time.

IIRC the board of GAS has included many lampworkers in recent years.

If you WANT more lampworking represented at GAS, then get it on the agenda at meetings and ask for it. There's a system in place that functions well enough, and GAS is no fly-by-night group that is out to make money off it's members - it's not free, but the money goes towards more than lining pockets, and the end result is a fantastic resource for everything from Studios to Galleries to Suppliers - and one kick ass party a year if you can afford to make it out for the main conference.

.... I just don't get the point in reinventing the wheel when what we have is working just fine.

.... when GAS is in Portland next year just wait to see how many lampworkers show up. We'll own the show!

-Doug

[vetropod]

For the most part, GAS is membered by traditional glass blowers, casters, kiln workers etc. Yes, they do support "some" lampworking, but the main focus, especially by those on the board, is toward the "furnace arts" and not the torch.

As a member of the Glass Art Society, I have found decent support for lampworking, especially more so in the last few years. Reading through the GAS Journal, there are quite a number of articles about flamworking. And interestingly enough, the current GAS president is a flameworker (Shane Fero.) I seem to recall that Mickelsen was recently on the board as well...

Just like FOG, it would seem that IGWG is being proposed by a supplier. Not that I have a problem with that, but Mike you can't say:


Nope -- FOG was vendors getting together "helping"...I am talking about glassworkers themselves getting together.

and NOT have us call bullshit on you...

And I imagine with the GAS Conference being in Portland, OR this year, that there is going to be a HECK of a lot of flameworkers there and probably more flameworking-oriented than previous conferences. Not that flameworking is the most important aspect of glass art, but obviously we have a slanted agenda on this board :D

[Natedizzle]

the proposition that *ALL* glassworkers deserve to have an equal voice.



GAS is membered by traditional glass blowers, casters, kiln workers etc. Yes, they do support "some" lampworking

so.... what exactly are you thinking? that we re-create GAS, but put a higher emphasis on lampworking? Even in your own words GAS has members from all aspects of glass working... If a new organization is started with more interest in the torch, wouldn't it be the same idea as gas with then the furnace and kiln workers wanting more "input" for lack of a better term?


Why not just request that GAS put more into their lampworking wing of thinking rather that competing with an organization that already does what you are proposing...

Nathan

[PyroChixRock]

I can't wait for GAS 2008!!! :bouncy:

[barefoot stash]

Seems like reinventing the wheel Mike. GAS, like any other origination, will respond to the needs and wants of its active members. If more lampworkers join, the conferences will naturally adapt to our desires. Plus, I have personally watched plenty of lampworking and met a ton of lampworkers via GAS. One of the things I like best about it is my exposure to different types of glass making. I would like to see however, emphasis put on group health insurance, catastrophe relief (i.e helping a seriously injured member and their family) etc..

[Mike_Aurelius]

As a member of the Glass Art Society, I have found decent support for lampworking, especially more so in the last few years. Reading through the GAS Journal, there are quite a number of articles about flamworking. And interestingly enough, the current GAS president is a flameworker (Shane Fero.) I seem to recall that Mickelsen was recently on the board as well...

Just like FOG, it would seem that IGWG is being proposed by a supplier. Not that I have a problem with that, but Mike you can't say:



and NOT have us call bullshit on you...

And I imagine with the GAS Conference being in Portland, OR this year, that there is going to be a HECK of a lot of flameworkers there and probably more flameworking-oriented than previous conferences. Not that flameworking is the most important aspect of glass art, but obviously we have a slanted agenda on this board :D

Well -- I wear two hats -- one as Aura, and one as a lampworker. This is me, the lampworker. What I'm looking for are thoughts and ideas...and perhaps maybe melding them into GAS, who knows...

Please don't dis me by calling what I'm saying is bullshit...Aura has **NOTHING** to do with this.

I haven't been to a GAS meeting since the last in in Seattle about 5-6 years ago. There's a reason for that -- and Robin knows it, as does Shane.

As I recall, the point of FOG was to get the suppliers together to supposedly "support" the industry, while what I (me, myself) am proposing is an organization of artists.

One of the problems I have with GAS is the bureaucracy -- and the "good old boys club" mentality that I've seen there. Maybe that has changed in the past couple of years, but I doubt it.

[Greymatter Glass]

I'm pretty sure GAS offers an insurance plan of some wort, and I know they work with CERF - Craft Emergency Relief Fund. They will help you get back on your feet if your studio is lost due to some kind of disaster, and they'll help with rehabilitation and provide legal referrals. they also do workshops and help with business planning for craft artists.

www.craftemergency.org

[Mike_Aurelius]

Seems like reinventing the wheel Mike. GAS, like any other origination, will respond to the needs and wants of its active members. If more lampworkers join, the conferences will naturally adapt to our desires. Plus, I have personally watched plenty of lampworking and met a ton of lampworkers via GAS. One of the things I like best about it is my exposure to different types of glass making. I would like to see however, emphasis put on group health insurance, catastrophe relief (i.e helping a seriously injured member and their family) etc..

Thanks -- exactly what I was looking for!

[Greymatter Glass]

One of the problems I have with GAS is the bureaucracy -- and the "good old boys club" mentality that I've seen there. Maybe that has changed in the past couple of years, but I doubt it.

Ok, so _YOU_ have a personal gripe with GAS, why shouldn't we join?

Good ol' boys? hell, everyone I've met from the GAS board is happy to talk to members, even young lampworkers. Just because they won't let you in at the top doesn't mean they're corrupt.

Why should I think that in forming your own group you wouldn't become it's first "good ol' boys" yourself?

.... are you just bitter about GAS, is that where this comes from?


...as for two hats mike, I call shenanigans. You're one person and you have to be responsible for your reputation no matter which hat you WANT to wear today. You are and always will be the same Mike Aurelius from Aura Lens, no matter what you do as a hobby.

-Doug

[Wiley]

Well -- One of the problems I have with GAS is the bureaucracy -- and the "good old boys club" mentality that I've seen there. Maybe that has changed in the past couple of years, but I doubt it.


I think that some people may perceive a 'good old boys club' in any large organization...

For example, at another organization a long time member told me essentially to keep my opinions to myself since I had only been a member for 6 months.

I find this quote interesting.....


BTW....where can I find more information on GAS?

Thanks!!

[susheke]

http://www.glassart.org/

[Mike_Aurelius]

Whoa there boy -- who said anything about not letting me in at the top?? Where did that come from? And what does that have to do with discussing what people want from a glass arts organization?

Yes -- I *do* have a gripe with GAS from about 5 years ago, but it is about issues that still have not changed from what I heard about the last several meetings.

Let me ask this Doug or anyone else who wants to chime in -- besides the annual convention, what else does GAS do for you during the rest of the year?

Sorry -- I don't agree that I can't have two different hats. I'm not planning on starting and running this "organization" if that's what you are worried about. I'm simply starting a discussion, that's all. I have absolutely zero experience running an arts organization, and there is no way in hell that I would want to start at this point in my life. But I totally disagree that I cannot separate the artist Mike from the business owner Mike.

[Wiley]

Thanks!!

[Mike_Aurelius]

I think that some people may perceive a 'good old boys club' in any large organization...

For example, at another organization a long time member told me essentially to keep my opinions to myself since I had only been a member for 6 months.

I find this quote interesting.....


BTW....where can I find more information on GAS?

Thanks!!

Well, as I recall, you were asked to educate yourself about the issues before you started making a fool of yourself talking about things you admitted you knew nothing about.

[PyroChixRock]

Do you two know each other?

[Racer X]

Mike answer my question please...

Did you read that book? I'm very curious to hear if you are familiar with the book.

[Wiley]

Yep...unfortunately....

We have a history, esp over the last couple days....I find his comments here hypocritical...

Hopefully he will share why some things he mentions here are acceptable however he feels others can't have that right.

Care to share Mike?

[Wiley]

I would be happy to share what has been going on if Mike does not. He can not claim certain things are OK for him but then castigate others for the same thing.

I do not want to cause trouble....I love visiting this forum however, I can not stand hypocrites.

I also don't like being told to keep my opinion to myself as I have only been a member somewhere for 6 months.

[PyroChixRock]

Before you or Mike have ant further discussion on this, please read the TOS here. I have been told you guys are in a discussion at TAM, just keep in mind things work differently here, and people need to remain respectful. Thanks ahead of time for keeping it chill.

[PyroChixRock]

TOS url (http://www.thegldg.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13)

[Mike_Aurelius]

Mike answer my question please...

Did you read that book? I'm very curious to hear if you are familiar with the book.

Actually, no. But the title has always amused me in a strange sort of way.

[Wiley]

Before you or Mike have ant further discussion on this, please read the TOS here. I have been told you guys are in a discussion at TAM, just keep in mind things work differently here, and people need to remain respectful. Thanks ahead of time for keeping it chill.

You know what? You are absolutely right. FWIW, we are not in any discussion at TAM...it was at the ISGB.

I am sorry for any grief I have cause you or your members this morning. Sometimes my hands get ahead of my brain.

I am sorry. Nice way to introduce myself :twitch: :D




Hi! I'm Wiley and I love glass!!

[Racer X]

Get the book. Read it... you'll die laughing. Then check out when it was written, try not to look at the publish date before you read it. Scandalous shit man. Easy and quick read.

[Mike_Aurelius]

Actually, Misha, I am not part of any discussion over on TAM except for the fact I'm the apparent target of a discussion over there. I've not read it, nor do I care to.

I'm not going to cross swords with Robin and her attempts to bring the argument over here. I want to keep this thread on-topic (even though we know how hard THAT is LOL).

As I wrote to Doug -- what would people want in an organization that supports them throughout the year, not just providing a meeting place and party once a year.

[PyroChixRock]

Cool, sounds like you both are on the same page. :D Sorry about the confusion on TAM, I have never had an account there so I just get passed on info. Rgardless, thanks to you both for keeping it civil and on topic. :D

Robin, welcome to the forum. No worries on the introduction, glad to have you.

[Mike_Aurelius]

Get the book. Read it... you'll die laughing. Then check out when it was written, try not to look at the publish date before you read it. Scandalous shit man. Easy and quick read.

Late 1700's right?

I loved Gullivers Travels as a kid, and then read it again as an adult and found a whole different story being told...

[Greymatter Glass]

Whoa there boy...snip.
Whoa there Mike. I'm not your "Boy" and depending on how/where you grew up that could be seen as a really offensive term.



Yes -- I *do* have a gripe with GAS from about 5 years ago...snip

Well, if you don't want to say what it is to the regular members and public at large it must not be very important. Let it go.



Let me ask this Doug or anyone else who wants to chime in -- besides the annual convention, what else does GAS do for you during the rest of the year?

Well, I don't really ask for much, but what they OFFER is substantial. I do, however, get on gallery and studio mailing lists, so I'm kept up to date in that way. I get occasional offers for tours and such that are offered to GAS members, if I choose to take them up on it or not isn't their concern. There's CERF, as I already mentioned, which I hope I never need, btu I'm happy to support them. Depending on where you live there are other annual and monthly or semi-monthly regional events. There's the newsletter, as minor as it is, it's always fun to look through.....

If your point is to say they don't do enough for their members I disagree. They don't do everything every member has ever wanted, but they can't be expected to either.



Sorry -- I don't agree that I can't have two different hats....snip... But I totally disagree that I cannot separate the artist Mike from the business owner Mike.

well of COURSE you disagree....dude.... I'm just saying that your reputation, as perceieved by the outside world, is attached to you as an individual no matter what "hat" you're wearing from day to day. You can't be an asshole one day, and cool the next, and shrug it off as "well, I was working that day" .... it doesn't hold well with people, and doesn't add to your reputation.

You are who you are, no matter what you're doing. Or you're fake.

-Doug

[Mike_Aurelius]

I don't believe CERF is part of GAS (I could be wrong). I believe it is an independant organization that receives some funding from organizations like GAS.

As for the beef with GAS -- it is in regards the technical journal report of the Annual Conference. When I was in Seattle, I gave a one hour talk on the need for protective eyewear. It was vendor neutral, and discussed the hazards and presented detailed information such as transmission charts etc.

Other vendors that year presented such things as recuperative furnaces, and other fairly technical talks. When it came time to print the annual journal, our talks were severely edited down. The guy who talked about the recuperative furnaces had something like two pages taken out of the middle of his presentation -- no editing, just bam, the middle two pages gone. All my charts were removed, and my preentation was essentially butchered.

I complained about it and was told that there is a word limit and if I didn't like it, I should write smaller tech papers....and yet, they spent something like $50,000 on the party at the end of the show. They could have taken $15K from the party and printed the tech papers in full...so that told me where GAS felt their money was better spent.

So, you will have to pardon me when I think that GAS isn't all that it is cracked up to be -- I'm sure as attendees, you guys have one hell of a good time -- but for those of us who actually have to work, we don't get much back in turn from the organization.

[Greymatter Glass]

You're right, and I don't think I implied it was a part of GAS... just saying that by being a GAS member you're recognized by CERF as a contributing member to their cause.... it helps grease wheels, perhaps?

I don't think CERF requires any professional membership to help out people in need, but it wouldn't hurt, right?

I'd bet that membership here would go a long way with CERF if we needed the help they offer.

[Racer X]

Allright, with the way this thread is going you are better off reading the cliff notes and realizing that this was a most appropriate title for this thread.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Modest_Proposal

IMO- A glass union is not real likely to become an attainable thing. You're better off learning about Jonathan Swifts proposal. Also, read "How To Talk Dirty and Influence People" by Lennie Bruce. It's kind of productive to study the humanities rather than let it study you.

[ABE LINKIN]

Glassblowers Are No Fun To Hang Out With Anyways. The Guys That Blow Plastic Without Ventilation Have Way Better Conversations. - I Think That Might Be Double Digits Joolz.....cheers!

[Dale M.]

I've been pondering the state of associations for glassworkers lately, and it has come to my mind that perhaps what is needed is an all-inclusive organization that will encompass all aspects of glass working, not just certain specialized niches.

I'd like to propose the IGWG: The International Glass Workers Guild -- dedicated to the proposition that *ALL* glassworkers deserve to have an equal voice.

I don't want to get into the nuts and bolts of how the organization would operate, but I would like your ideas on how such an organization could help you as a glass worker.

What would you like to see an organization do?
What should it not do?

Think of this process as creating a "mission statement"...

ROFLMAO....

Dale

[menty666]

Now that we've gotten the group hugs out of the way, what was FOG?

[vetropod]

Now that we've gotten the group hugs out of the way, what was FOG?

Gotta go WAAAAAAY back for this one (to the OLD board :twitch: )

http://p211.ezboard.com/fartglasspipemakerspipemakersforum.showMessage?top icID=10129.topic

PS - had to throw this in for kicks :D http://wesleyfleming.com/images/icons/ez6iw.gif

[kbinkster]

Now that we've gotten the group hugs out of the way, what was FOG?

Well, basically, it started out as a way for select vendors/manufacturers/distributors to get together and fix prices and supply chains and other illegal stuff like that all under the direction of Henry Grimmet. They had a secret meeting and then another one where more people were invited. When it didn't go over as well as they thought it would, the organizers started saying that they wanted it to be an organization for artists, too, so that they could get benefits like insurance. The problem is that you cannot have both at the same time - that would be like the fox guarding the chicken coop.

I think it might still be posted on the old board - not sure.

[vetropod]

I think it might still be posted on the old board - not sure.

Yes, it is. See the link in post above this post :D

[PyroChixRock]

good times.

[Mac Maestro]

There's a blast from the past.

I wonder what Henry is up to these days....

[menty666]

Gotta go WAAAAAAY back for this one (to the OLD board :twitch: )

http://p211.ezboard.com/fartglasspipemakerspipemakersforum.showMessage?top icID=10129.topic




Thanks!!!

[vetropod]

Thanks!!!

No prob! Congrats on your 666th post :devilish:

[kbinkster]

Yes, it is. See the link in post above this post :D

I saw your post after I finished mine. It took me a long time to type mine out while I was fixing dinner. I'm glad you found the link. I was too lazy to go look.:D

[vetropod]

It's OK, I'll forgive you next time! http://wesleyfleming.com/images/icons/Contemplative.gif

[kbinkster]

Oh, and don't forget the timing of it all. That was back when Momka was trying to get off the ground with her own company. I'm glad to see that she's doing well. It's nice to have so many choices for color.

[kbinkster]

It's OK, I'll forgive you next time! http://wesleyfleming.com/images/icons/Contemplative.gif

Thanks... hey, wait a minute... next time? What about this time? LOL

[vetropod]

What about this time? LOL

I'll have to think about that one. :puzzled:

[Tzonis]

I've been pondering the state of associations for glassworkers lately, and it has come to my mind that perhaps what is needed is an all-inclusive organization that will encompass all aspects of glass working, not just certain specialized niches.

I'd like to propose the IGWG: The International Glass Workers Guild -- dedicated to the proposition that *ALL* glassworkers deserve to have an equal voice.

I don't want to get into the nuts and bolts of how the organization would operate, but I would like your ideas on how such an organization could help you as a glass worker.

What would you like to see an organization do?
What should it not do?

Think of this process as creating a "mission statement"...

this again?

*yawn*

[yinzer]

do i get a pony outta this??

[Greymatter Glass]

why aren't there any countries that start with the letter X?

[VinE]

Like Jonathan Swifts A Modest Proposal, I suggest everyone start eating their children and homeless.

lol. thats a funny book!

[mer]

why aren't there any countries that start with the letter X?

isn't xanadu a country yet? olivia newton john needs to get on that.

[Emmett's Glass]

isn't xanadu a country yet? olivia newton john needs to get on that.

RUSH is helping her, shouldn't be long now.
E

[Swampy]

Stop if I'm wrong, but didn't Jonathan Swift write that one about the seagull called Livingstone or something?

[dogmaw]

You are thinking of jonathan livingston seagull. That was written by Richard Bach.

[Swampy]

No, the guy you mentioned wrote "Do You Know the Way to San Jose?" for Dionne Warwick back in 68, remember?

[Greymatter Glass]

Do you know the way to shop eBay?

Millions of people do so every day! Why not you? Now you can!

[Merlin]

do i get a pony outta this??

how many ponies do you need?

[Racer X]

Pony meat is pretty good if you marinate it.