A Different Proposal

[highroller]

Gas and other orginizations already exist. A Union would be nice but it would only exist to protect the wages and "fairness" of the industry and to maybee provide a insurance plan for its members to join. The most direct way for us as "pipers" is to make a large co-op distribution company. Warehouse,cataloge,sales team,shippers,and a group discount on health plan. I know that there is a million things that would half to be worked out, so any coments are welcome. Nomader what ,it would take alot of trust between the "founding Fathers and Mothers" to make it work. I have some Ideas but ,would like to hear everyones thoughts or oppinions on this. This could be the largest and strongest distribution company of American made, glass tabacoo accessories, in the nation. And by having a set price standard would stop the price back stabbing umong glassblowers. sorry so ranty but just wanted to get this out after the lats proposal.

[petto]

Isn't that kinda what frodo is doing with Alantis ?

[puddletown]

yeah but frodo doesnt call anyone back.

so what are we talkin here? union run shops? and how would you work out shipping and distribution sites? One per town?

its not as easy as you might think. People have been trying something like that in Portland for a long time, but everyone gets their own deals here and there, and its pretty hard to get everyone on the same pricing schedule.

Then you need to figure something out for apprentices, or people learning.

Dont get me wrong, I'm all about it. right now im fighting with oxygen companies, can you imagine how nice it would be to get all the glassblowers in this town together and get a group deal on Oxy? if we had some buying power we could lower everyones prices.

And think about buying color. I already get about as good a price as anyone, and would love to extend that deal to anyone that would be willing to work with me, but how many people on here thik they are getting the best deal?

I mean glassblowers are a special breed, pipers especially. So lets figure out a way to help everyone out.

[PyroChixRock]

I'm down to help out with a portland based organization. we should get some heads together one night and brainstorm.

[menty666]

Just be careful when you talk about setting standard prices. Even a hint of price fixing will get you unwanted attention.

[puddletown]

maybe over a nice game of cards huh misha???

lol

[mer]

statewide? c'mon, let the hillbillies play too :)

[PyroChixRock]

yeah, you too hillbilly. :D

[mer]

sweet! i'll start packin' up the mule in the mornin'.

[CitizenNot]

glass blowing is a trade(craft,art,whatever), it must be taught. If you want to approach this idea "for real" there must be standards and yes price fixing! Lets say you want some electrical work done, or maybe some plumbing, or cabinets made, tile work, masonary, and on and on and on... these people didn't just pick up tools and demand equal pay! they were trained for many years, masters were selective and kept their mouths shut. In the past 30 years glass has been completely exposed. And thats why we have all these thoughts about imports where?, who's what, 3 $ spoons in my bag, my grama's got better color than you!, mentality. Only great minds can achieve simplicity! This can happen is those who want it make it happen.

[menty666]

I'm sure this is going to be pretty unpopular, but just because it's imported doesn't mean it's crap. That doesn't mean there isn't a fair amount of sweat shop shit out there, but think about how you have to selectively qualify your definition of imported. Canada? Ok. Japan? Featured in The Flow and Glass Line. Ultimately imported. But then you have to say, ok, I mean mass produced import products typically produced under sweat shop conditions.
I'm not saying that making things under sweat shop conditions is right, but if you take India as an example, there are a billion people there. Why not rise up and band together for a better quality of life? Why impose our western standards on their work when for them the quality of work and the work itself isn't (by their standard) so bad.
In this country people complain that import cars are so much cheaper than american made ones and that it's putting american manufacturers out of business. Well one of the reasons behind that is that union workers push up the cost of the vehicles. It's really no wonder that foreign workers are so inexpensive. Are they treated like garbage? Yes. But even in the Indian tech industry where the people are commoditized, prices are going up because there's a fight for the labor force. I'd project that something similar may very well happen to their glass industry and the manufacturing will move to the next underdeveloped country du jour.

While price floors and wage minimums may at first help out the individuals, eventually the cost drives buyers to look elsewhere, ultimately hurting the individual artists. Or breaking the group so that freelancers are willing to accept less just to get the business, and you're back to backstabbing price cuts.

It's the nature of the free economy.

Oh, and for other skilled labor, I still shop around for the best price, but that's not always the only determiner in who I hire for a job.

[CitizenNot]

just another endless thread, nine and half hours until i get another tank:waiting:

[puddletown]

40 years ago one man working as a janitor could support a family of four.

Are you sure its the union employees that are pushing the price of cars up?
is that becoause they are the ones that have health insurance?

in every other modernized country in the world health care is free. Here, we get charged out the ass for health care.

God DAMNIT dont get me started on this fucking rant again!!!!!!!

Unions are the reason that you dont start working when yur 8 or 9 years old.

[mer]

there are a number of threads on the topic of imported glass and the global economy going on right now. maybe we could keep this one on the topic of creating a lampworkers collective. k thx.....

[Udai Hussien]

I propose you all take turns, sucking warm farts, out of my asshole

[Zed]

Get a room full of pipemakers together and try to get them to agree on anything, except maybe when 4:20 is. Good luck with all that though.

[puddletown]

doesnt 4:20 start at 4:15?

[mer]

it starts on april 20th and goes on until april 19th of the following year.

[PyroChixRock]

I bet if we took a vote, everyone in the room would agree on that!! :lol

[CitizenNot]

40 years ago one man working as a janitor could support a family of four.

Are you sure its the union employees that are pushing the price of cars up?
is that becoause they are the ones that have health insurance?

in every other modernized country in the world health care is free. Here, we get charged out the ass for health care.

God DAMNIT dont get me started on this fucking rant again!!!!!!!

Unions are the reason that you dont start working when yur 8 or 9 years old.

hmmmm....glass......italy........mob....unions.... ...where the fuck in nomad:crazy:

[menty666]

4:20? AM or PM and which time zone are we referring to? :D

[Mike_Aurelius]

Naw, unions are not the answer, but a guild is. There are parallels, but there are differences as well.

Abso-fucking-posolutely stay away from talking about selling prices. The feds would jump on that so fast that you won't know what hit you. That's what doomed FOG from the very beginning. There can be no discussions about selling prices period.

What you can talk about is setting up (as was mentioned) a purchasing co-op, to get the best prices for your materials.

Large enough guilds can have a lot of muscle, with enough dues paying members, maybe enough to swing a good deal on health insurance, dental insurance, life insurance etc.

For the sake of discussion, let's say the guild has 5,000 members spread across the country. Don't you think Blue Cross (or any other national health care provider for that matter) won't sit up and take notice?

Same thing with buying glass -- 5,000 members has a huge potential to get good pricing.

These are the things I was trying to get a discussion going on in the other thread.

[NUBBLET]

Large enough guilds can have a lot of muscle, with enough dues paying members, maybe enough to swing a good deal on health insurance, dental insurance, life insurance etc.

For the sake of discussion, let's say the guild has 5,000 members spread across the country. Don't you think Blue Cross (or any other national health care provider for that matter) won't sit up and take notice?

Same thing with buying glass -- 5,000 members has a huge potential to get good pricing.

These are the things I was trying to get a discussion going on in the other thread.

glasses :nerd: :spend: :nerd2: :D
A good leader would make sure their members had HEAVY discounts on safety equiptment :devilish:

[Mike_Aurelius]

Of course! ;)

[Mac Maestro]

Seems to me:
There is importance not only in WHAT you are proposing,
But WHO is doing the proposing...

[Mike_Aurelius]

Lmao!!!!!!!!

[Merlin]

who proposed to who?

[glasspapi]

just a few thoughts...

I would like to address the comment on union workers driving up the price, that is some seriously funny propaganda...which news outlet told you that cnn, fox noise, a clear channel subsidiary???? I am sorry but I dont subscribe to your neo conservative point of views on blaming labor...not everyone is a believer in milton freidmans ideas and reganomics. but thats another discussion.

I agree with mike about a guild rather than a union. They are very similiar but at the same time work very differently. I am not versed as much with guilds as I am with unions. I am actively involed with my local teamsters here and even a shop steward. A guild is more for people in the same business or craft which applies more to us lampworkers. At least thats my perspective.

Its funny that puddletown mentioned Portland and its failure to unite lampworkers and ever more so pipemakers. Pipers (and a lot of glassworkers) are very uniterested in sharing ideas. I like to hear how other people come up with their concepts and processes, but it seems a lot of lampworkers are very uptight in discussing how they made something. I am not trying to steal their ideas, i just enjoy looking at someone else's perspective. Anyways, thats why here in Portland Im helping to start an "art collective". Other meduims seem waaaaay more open to a guild/collective that would share their ideas techniques processes while using a collective to get into galleries, do art festivals/shows, and internet sells. I have always wondered why Portland, probably with one of the largest populations of glassworkers (pipemakers, beaders, fusers, etc), doesnt have a strong guild or collective here. oh well.

[PyroChixRock]

you should come to our meeting when we have one. take notes one ideas in the mean time and whatever else you think will help. we can use ya. ;)

[trained]

i would love to see a pipers guild but not a union really