do you pay your student or does your student pay you?

[slow moe]

i saw this brought up on gpo and i was stunned and wanted to see what everyone here thinks about apprenticeships. in order for me to learn to blow glass i had to work for my teach for 1 year doing his prodo. that was in turn my payment for learning. which i think is fair. i'll be working glass for the rest of my life and one years worth of work is far worth the knowledge i picked up in that year. it seems now days there are apprentices being paid to learn how to blow glass. is this true? this seems like a strange concept to me as i thought it should be the other way around. what do yall think?

[mer]

what are you talking about?

[HOSS]

There doesn't seem to be a standard agreement for glass apprenticeships like there is for tattoo apprenticeships, maybe because its relatively easy to teach yourself or take classes so they seem to be somewhat uncommon. But I think you're the first one I've heard of who didn't get paid at all. How much were you required to produce a week?

[Swampy]

Not that I know a lot, but I wouldn't mind sharing what little experience I have.

So I'd like to take on a few just to share some skills with youngsters so they don't have to think about what they might steal to go score an eighth.

Trouble is I don't want my kit stolen.

What's the solution, get a grant and set up an institution?

[HOSS]

Trouble is I don't want my kit stolen.

What's the solution, get a grant and set up an institution?

Maybe an alarm system, and nobody allowed in the shop unless you are there?

You're right to be worried, we got ripped off in small ways all the time ("lost" pieces and glasses and such), then flat out robbed blind by someone who had actually done his full year, then came back a year later and took everything while the boss was out of town. :wes:

[Lurch]

I got paid while I learned. $8 an hour which was like 2 above minimum at the time. and within 8 months I was making double...

[mer]

wtf? really? were you working for your parents? that's crazy. sounds like a charity program for glassblowers. that's not how it works out here.

[Firekist]

i've paid a couple "apprentices".. and it's worked out ok for both of us. i've stopped paying from the getgo, and now will only pay after they can pull points that are up to snuff.


9/hour is what i've paid.. and i was happy to not pull points for a few months.

however, by going this route, you're going to learn in the order i want you to learn, not how you want to. you're not going to get in depth classes. you're not going to get much one on one time. you're not going to get taught how to make headdy stuff for years and years.
if you pay, you learn tell me what you want to learn, or what you want to make, and i'll tell you what you need to know.. and probably lots of other stuff besides.

--->always looking for an apprentice, slackers need not apply
z---seth

[slow moe]

i guess all circumstances are different and an apprenticeship is whatever is agreed upon. i just think the student should be paid in knowlege, not cash. i would never pay someone to teach them my skills. they should be paying me.

hiring someone to pull points/do prep is a totally different story

[Lurch]

wtf? really? were you working for your parents? that's crazy. sounds like a charity program for glassblowers. that's not how it works out here.

Yeah I really worked at a company that paid like that. It was in 2000 when I got hired there. I doubled my wage in 8 months because Our minimum quota was 30 pieces/day and I could do 45-50 no problem.

I don't pay when I train new people... I just costs too much in waste while they learn. I consider myself lucky in getting paid while I got trained. I have no delusions about how it is out there....

[cowboy]

Seems strange to me to pay an apprentice ......I have a set fee I charge to apprentice me...said apprentice pays set fee, works in my shop for one year. The apprentice pays for his own gas and supplies but keeps the profit from what he/she makes and sells. I think an apprentice should get paid from the person who buys there glass and should pay me to pick my brain and learn as much as he can in a year. I guess we all go about it differently~

[slow moe]

Seems strange to me to pay an apprentice ......I have a set fee I charge to apprentice me...said apprentice pays set fee, works in my shop for one year. The apprentice pays for his own gas and supplies but keeps the profit from what he/she makes and sells. I think an apprentice should get paid from the person who buys there glass and should pay me to pick my brain and learn as much as he can in a year. I guess we all go about it differently~

this is how i learned and how i would go about teaching someone else. i've just been hearing talk about paid apprentices and was wondering how many people out there have been being paid to learn glass.

[HOSS]

If you are getting to keep/sell the pieces you make, to me that is equivalent to getting paid. It sounded like you were describing doing a full year of making someone elses prodo for them, and getting nothing out of it but lessons and practice. That seems like going too far to me.

[slow moe]

all his prodo for a year, any extra pieces i made i got to keep

[Uscalus Storm]

Well anything for me would be nice...But i've yet to find a Lampworker within 15miles of where i live. Theres a bead lady.... and the shop that buys buys from someone that lives in sheboygan.... I'd work for 25% of sale shit....

[HOSS]

all his prodo for a year, any extra pieces i made i got to keep

Wow, what Cowboy described sounded fairly resonable but this seems a little excessive to me... if you do 20 hours of prodo a week, even at a modest production rate like $15-$20/hr, you've paid something like 15-20 grand after a year. :twitch: Ouch. But as long as you feel like it was worth it then its a fair deal. Its going to depend a lot on the teacher too.

I'd say you're a rare breed, I don't think most people would be able to stick it through that. Making it worth your teachers time sounds good and all, but you still have to pay the bills somehow. At the place I started, only 3 people (out of at least a dozen, maybe 20) ever made it to the end of a year. Most only stayed long enough to pick up the basics maybe learn some simple spoons or hitters then they'd be down the road setting up their own torch in the garage. So props for having the integrity to live up to your agreement. :peace:

[mer]

i paid 1,500 for my apprenticeship (six months) and that's pretty inexpensive around here from what i understand. i've gladly paid $400-$650 for 2-3 day classes repeatedly so that i can be with teachers i respect.

as for teaching, i've not had good luck with students who aren't paying to be there. it just seems like they don't really appreciate what they're getting. it costs me money to take time away from orders to teach so doing it for free seems ridiculous. i can't imagine how somebody could afford to pay a student. i ain't hatin', just sayin.

if somebody offers to pay you to learn don't take it for granted. the universe is giving you a great gift. cherish your teacher.

[ech]

I've been teaching someone. They pulled me a bunch of stringers and some cane and they did a little prodo with me too. I'm satisfied with what i've gotten for my time so far. Alot of what I know I didn't pay cash to learn so I don't really accept cash to teach most of it.

[barefoot stash]

I think people are interchanging terms here and that is what is causing the confusion. I break it down like this:

student=>classes=>you pay me to learn whatever we agree on and then go away

apprentice=> long term commitment (at least a year) => you do monkey work for me, I teach you how to blow glass for free (time for time) which may lead to

employee/contractor=> you are skilled to some extent and can produce a product reliably => I pay you for said product/hours

A very good point was brought up, making someone pay with either time or money does "weed out the weaklings" quickly and generally produces better students. I teach for a living and it's funny, I can almost always tell the kids who's parents are paying their tuition and those who are working for it. Every once in a while you'll find that person who is just stoked on glass and is willing to do whatever it takes to blow glass, keep them around, they'll probably end up better than you :)

[barefoot stash]

Wow, what Cowboy described sounded fairly resonable but this seems a little excessive to me... if you do 20 hours of prodo a week, even at a modest production rate like $15-$20/hr, you've paid something like 15-20 grand after a year. :twitch: Ouch.


That doesn't factor in waste...and lots of it!

[Uscalus Storm]

I'd still do an apprentice doing what barefoot said...Like a previous post of mine. Practice is practice.. So hard starting out >.<

[Ben Burton Glass]

I paid for my first apprenticship which also got my foot in the door. They showed me the basics, and it went from there. I paid for glass and gas, but got to keep everything I made, which was awesome! after the year was up, I got my own gear and kept pluggin at it...

If I were to take an apprentice, they would have to pay me a good chunk up front and then designate a certain number of hours a week to be in the shop, working, learning, producing, etc.

When I teach classes (3-4 hour blocks), for one timers or people that are wondering if it's somethign they're into, or bead making or whatever someone wants to learn specifically, then I charge them my hourly rate (what I would be making per hour otherwise) to compensate for time spent not producing. If they're cool with that, then no problem, if not, then no classes.

That's just how I see it.

Like someone mentioned above, I've taken weekend workshops and things that cost upwards of 700 bucks plus airfare and room and board and food and everything else, but it's for a chance to learn from someone great, from someone who really knows what they're doing and is willing to share their knowledge and experience with you. Flying from where I live doesn't make that a cheap trip, and back in the day I couldn't justify paying that much, but now with the things everyone is doing to raise the bar and step it up, those prices are very reasonable. I also think I'll be able to take much more away from the experience then I would've in the past because I myself have grown in creativity and technical ability since then.

Practice practice practice.... Never stops.

Aloha!

[chayes]

i'd make sure to thoroughly train the guy who wants my job for free.

[smutboy420]

i don;t know about students getting paid for learning in a class i never ealy heard of that tho I suppose it may happen some were. But it seems like you would loose a lot of $ if you got a lot of students.

and except for glass I never ever in my freaking life heard of the aprentice paying is boss to work.

And aprentiship is a foot in the door position with a lower pay then a experianced worker. But the lower pay is in extange for the learing of the craft or trade. and usealy some somrt of comitment of time and a promis of the higer pay when the time is pasesses and they are no longer and aprentace.

Thats a con game if any one is telling you to pay them to work for them.
Your better off working for free then paying to work.

BUT this field is not short handed of crooks and flesh pedlers, and triple blown so why not ya paying to work ha ha how gay

[nicko0]

we have a flexible agreement. our goal is to turn him into an invaluable employee. he is to produce enough work to cover my cost and time. and to progess steadily and skillfully. i set the pace. we have agreed when he is doing paid work he gets fifty percent of the actual sale price minus an estimated materials cost which generally comes out to less than ten percent but is usually calculated as ten percent. its a good pay rate and should keep him as an employee for many years. it hasnt been easy to find someone.

[EarthTones]

I'm hoping to get an apprenticeship in Mongolia with Sepulworld soon:D
I just have to mail him these pics & cross my fingers!
Oh,but anyways,I don't have a glass appenticeship or know much about it,but my girlfriend has one with a fine jewler & she does all the production/finish work & all the grunt work for free in exchange for learning. I think most work this way,pretty much an even trade,grunt labor for knowledge & experience.But everyone has their own way of going about things & it is interesting reading the different approaches in this post.

[Mac Maestro]

I also like to pay people to drink my beer and go on vacation for me...

[slow moe]

I also like to pay people to drink my beer and go on vacation for me...

now thats what i expect out of an apprenticeship:D

[slow moe]

she does all the production/finish work & all the grunt work for free in exchange for learning. I think most work this way,pretty much an even trade,grunt labor for knowledge & experience.

seems fair to me, thats pretty much what my deal was. good luck getting yours. what are you doing in those pics???

[EarthTones]

" To truly understand the path of the punty master,one must first be able to punty up to an unopened bottle of beer":D