Water powered torch?

[richsantaclaus]

I ran across this on YouTube - would it work in glass?

[CripSkillz]

I think this might be the link you wanted in your post..

whatttup Rich

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vm5JhpWt4GQ

oil company's will probably have that guy assassinated within the month..

[Emmett's Glass]

I heard that Doug really likes browns gas so much he set up his delta to run on it.
E

[Mike_Aurelius]

OH HELL NO (in my best Samuel L Jackson voice)

Someone quick change the title of this thread before Dougie has a meltdown!!)

[mer]

what a lovely un-birthday present.

[Alfred]

Blah blah blah browns gas , yea ,whatever
Check this out though:
Hydrogen from water and aluminum/gallium alloy (http://www.physorg.com/news98556080.html)

Sounds interesting

[Ben 'Spice' Crowley]

thts absolutley amazing, with the power of that thing and the residue I see it being too volatile for glass

If the bi-product is water, then what does that mean as far as the build up of residue, does it simply drip away and puddle somewhere or does it become a saftey issue?

[Ben 'Spice' Crowley]

o and is the water hot or ultra cool like the torch head

[β]

not only is your torch ultra cool...you will also be ultra cool/cutting edge.

[themoch]

there's a post about that someplace here...

bottom line is although it works, you have to put more energy into it then you get out of it, and you need to get that energy from someplace...

[Udai Hussien]

you fuckign rubes. i have brown gas generators, just paypal me $500 each C/o craig bellenger, and I'll ship you one (of the plans)

[Greymatter Glass]

Santa, please tell me this is some kind of joke, if not get ready for evisceration.

[themoch]

man,

there's some video's on the side bar for that video that have real life scientists saying that it's some sort of magical electrolysis that uses only 1/3 the energy and has a 3x output.... what do you think of that doug?

[Dale M.]

OH NO....... NOT AGAIN.............

Sigh....

Dale

[CitizenNot]

i tried using brown gas but all it did was smell bad and clog my ports.
whats next jenkem powered torches?

[Greymatter Glass]

Define "real" scientist?

[CitizenNot]

Dudes with test tubes

[Ben 'Spice' Crowley]

and lab coats

[CripSkillz]

and the best receipt for MDMA

[CitizenNot]

hey if i drink enough 151 do you think i can turn my wanker into a torch

[Alfred]

K,so anyone click on that link I posted?aluminum/gallium alloy +water=hydrogen+aluminum oxide, exothermic reaction.

Check it out:New process generates hydrogen from aluminum alloy to run engines, fuel cells (http://www.physorg.com/news98556080.html)

Article is about a year old.

here's a better one that's more recent (http://www.ibj.com/html/detail_page.asp?content=11619)

[richsantaclaus]

Hey guys, I was just asking if it was a real possible alternative and really don't know more than the link Crip posted. I don't know what others have as problems reading some of the comments but I still am interested in the hard facts of this process. Of course if it a new process, more time is needed to refine it for it to be useful to glass people.

Didn't mean for anyone to have a heart attack - I had one once and it is not a pleasant thing!

[Greymatter Glass]

See Santa, here's the deal - and I type this YET AGAIN.

It's _NOT_ new technology, it's old and busted technology in a new package. Look up Browns Gas on wikipedia.

The hard facts: There is no "free" energy. The electrical energy it takes to generate HHO/browns gas will _ALWAYS_ be greater than the thermal energy output of whatever flame it generates. You can't escape this.

Alfred brings up another interesting issue, but again it's pretty old news already.


Problem: Aluminum doesn't exist in it's metallic state naturally. It takes a huge amount of energy to convert AlO2 to Al2. All you're doing by adding gallium to Aluminum is adding a catalyst to a reaction that's already occurring - namely the redux of Al2 + 2O2 -> 2AlO2 (I didn't check this, but you get the idea). Just because you don't see the energy input doesn't mean it's not there, it was just used to make your non-tradition fuel.


As for glass, hydrogen is useful for quartz work but burns far too hot for lampworking in general. Also there's an issue of the invisible flame and the safety concerns with working that...you can buy hydrogen in bottles same as propane.


...anyways...

-Doug

[Greymatter Glass]

To reiterate:

http://www.thegldg.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6164

http://www.thegldg.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8822

http://www.thegldg.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18909

http://www.thegldg.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14576

http://www.thegldg.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11970

http://www.thegldg.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5960

http://www.thegldg.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6254

... I'm sure there are more.

I suppose I should give an infraction, but it just causes the mods a headache, and I know you didn't mean anything by it. For what it's worth, look at the other people who posted about it... you're in decent company.

[Alfred]

I agree with you Doug energy 's gotta come from somewhere ;) ain't that one of The Laws? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_energy)Here's an excerpt from the second article though:


Fortunately, aluminum is fairly cheap (about $1 per pound) and easy to obtain. And the alloy pellets, once spent, can be recycled and reused. The problem is that some experts believe the energy necessary to create fresh fuel will negate whatever energy the pellets create. Woodall, however, believes this problem can be solved by using cheap, pollution-free, solar, wind or nuclear power in the recycling process.


Not free energy ,cheaper cleaner renewable energy!(yea not to keen on the mention of Nuclear though lol)

[Mike_Aurelius]

"And the alloy pellets, once spent, can be recycled and re-used."

Hmmm...if they are spent, then there is no aluminum left in them, so how can they be recycled, much less reused?

[Alfred]

LOL, READ THE ARTICLE MIKE!;)


Hmmm...if they are spent, then there is no aluminum left in them, so how can they be recycled, much less reused?


As Doug explains it's fairly basic chemistry,spent fuel pellets are Aluminum Oxide,duh.The new part of this, from what I understand,is that the addition of gallium to the aluminum acts as a catalyst, inhibiting the formation of an aluminum oxide "skin" allowing all of the aluminum to react with the water.Once again review your Laws of Physics,neither matter or energy ever disappear and you can't get something from nothing.

[Waffles]

what about the sun? solar panels to batteries. charged batteries to dc regulator. regulator to water and depending on the setup you get however much lpm of hydrogen and however much oxygen. so if the LPM is to low then you could fill at least the oxygen tank with a two tank set up fairly safely. if you could harness the hydrogen safely yes you can use it. it is clean. there's a youtube video of an older guy making marbles who swears by hydrogen. i want to look into getting some hydrogen and experimenting with boro. I'm looking to go off the grid and I want to blow glass on my remote land where I do have running water and it's in the desert so solar panels and wind turbines are in the works. anyone ever used hydrogen with boro? another dangerous but cool thought is using tubes with gong joints as a flashback arrestor. most flash back arrestors don't actually do any their job because they are just metal fittings with wetted brass wool inside. if a bubbler arrestor were put in place then its physically impossible to have the flame travel back up. it it would stop at the water. I;m going to go eat my bloodsugar is fucked so I hope i was coherant, but i really want to know more about HHO generators, oxygen concentrators, and ways to make a gas fired annealing oven. sorry if i've reposted something, I found the first water torch post and here i am

[Bo Diddles]

Welcome to the forum Waffles!

[Greymatter Glass]

These damn HHO / Brown's Gas torches have been a thorn in my side for YEARS...

Not the torch itself, I mean, they work, in as much as they make hydrogen and oxygen and burn it... albeit at a VERY high energy cost going in... it's just that people don't understand HOW they work.

These would be worthless for an "off the grid" set up, as they require electricity to work - LOTS of it. Photovoltaics and wind turbines would be cost prohibitive ways to run one. Also, as I mentioned in another thread, Photovoltaics as they're currently manufactured will never break even in their carbon footprint during their estimated life span - all you're doing is offsetting the pollution to the third world where they're manufactured.

Liquid oxygen tanks and propane cylinders are 100% "off grid" as they don't require any electrical power at their point of use... so why bother with anything else?

Gas annealers have been used for a while, they work, they're just temperamental... you have to constantly monitor them, or invest in expensive automated monitoring equipment (that requires electricity) to keep them stable... but it's at least a valid technology.

I would suggest you search the forum for HHO and water torches, it's been discussed to death...

-Doug

[Rock72]

oil company's will probably have that guy assassinated within the month..

QFT, I couldn't have said it better, but still its pretty cool.

[Alfred]

Just for you Doug! (http://www.youtube.com/v/vO-1l0lXR_U&rel=0&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xd0d0d0&hl=en_US&feature=player_embedded&fs=1):poke:

[tay_ste_5000]

nearly unlimited electricity is very accessible through solar and geothermal, oil company bastards just keep the patents from being used so we can keep on burning their gas and propane and diesel and all that other garbage

[drew1492]

Hydrogen eats away at metals so it would probably slowly eat away at your torch. The big problem with it is storing it at this point in time, my brother is doing material science research at university of illinois about it

[Aussie]

QFT, I couldn't have said it better, but still its pretty cool.

you do realise it's 2 years since the first post in this thread, and Denny Klein patented his system in 2005 ... I can however confirm that he was assassinated 2 months after lodging his patent application and he has been replaced by an android double developed by the CIA and programmed by Texas Oil to self destruct in 2012 by means of a Hydronuclear device. This will cause the apocalyptic chain reaction long ago predicted by the Maya, hence saving everyone a lot of trouble and headaches.

[raven sun]

Teslas disk turbine is the most overlooked near-free-energy device available, properly utilized, it can achieve up to 97% efficiency(Tesla's claim) and can run on almost any fuel source including compressed air, making on-site electric power generation extremely cheap and easy... has anyone ever heard of induction torches?

[raven sun]

Hydrogen eats away at metals so it would probably slowly eat away at your torch.

http://www.geicp.com/site/images/products/8000014.jpg

torch made of quartz glass...

http://www.geicp.com/cgi-bin/site/wrapper.pl?c1=Products_torches_fixed

[Greymatter Glass]

Tesla made a LOT of claims... and was quite mad when he finally passed away.

Compressing air takes a lot more energy to produce than it can release...

I've always believed there are 2 kinds of people in the world... those who understand physics and those who don't...

[Mecha]

What about photon torpedos? Those things are pretty bad ass. Maybe a warp core powered torch is where it is at?

[raven sun]

Tesla made a LOT of claims... and was quite mad when he finally passed away.

Compressing air takes a lot more energy to produce than it can release...

I've always believed there are 2 kinds of people in the world... those who understand physics and those who don't...

please excuse my ignorance of physical laws, but I, and a few other law breakers, have empirical evidence that the disk turbine works as stated, there is sufficient information available on the net if you search...

those that properly research Tesla's legacy will no doubt come to the conclusion that he was one of the few super-geniuses throughout history, in fact, he is arguably the most influential man who ever lived, having affected almost every human life since his invention of AC power which led to the high frequency circuits we use in our comps today...even jesus cant top that!

also, compressing air doesnt take inordinate amouts of energy if you do it right...

[byron3]

...........also, compressing air doesnt take inordinate amouts of energy if you do it right...

I think the basic premises here is you can not get any MORE energy OUT than you put IN and with trivial little things like friction in mechanical devices you NEVER get as MUCH OUT as you put IN ......................

You can argue with physics all you want, but you will never win................

[Mecha]

I had an argument with physics once when I was a kid.

Got the wind knocked out of me and ended up with two black eyes.

F**K you physics.

[Greymatter Glass]

...disk turbine works as stated, there is sufficient information available on the net if you search...


Yes, because everything on the Internet is true. I don't have a problem with disk turbines per se. They do not scale well past a demonstration model, and doing so would be expensive, to say the least....



those that properly research Tesla's legacy will no doubt come to the conclusion that he was one of the few super-geniuses throughout history, in fact, he is arguably the most influential man who ever lived,...


One of, if not THE... I could argue for a lot of historical figures: Darwin, Oppenheimer, any number of ancient philosophers (Greek Arabic, Persian, Roman...), Newton, Leibniz, Einstein, Watts, Marconi, Edison... etc... to say any one is THE most important is a very difficult exercise in opinion. I think many people here would also consider Otto von Schott to be more important than Tesla.... it's a matter of opinion.



also, compressing air doesnt take inordinate amouts of energy if you do it right...

Well, it doesn't matter what method/technique/machine you use to do it, it will still take more energy to compress than you'd be able to recover from expansion. I agree there are more and less efficient ways to do ANYTHING, not just compress air, but as long as we're on Earth and not fooling with math, there is never going to be a transfer of energy without some loss, even at the atomic level. Entropy's a bitch.


TINSTAAFL.

[Alfred]

Damn Doug I posted that vid just for you and you don't even mention it!:bummed:

[Goldsmithy]

Am I missing something here? Water torches have been around for at least 30 years that I know of. They have a very hot flame, up to 3000 degrees depending on the solution you use. The flames are non adjustable and the torch tips are hypodermic needles. They are easily transportable, so if anyone in the Cincinnati area wants to try one, I will be happy to bring my to try...Smithy

[Greymatter Glass]

Water torches for the jewelry industry have been around for a long time, yes. I've used one, they're cool, and a lot of malls and businesses won't let jewelers have tanked gas supplies in their kiosk/shop. That's pretty much why the little water torches were created, they can't blow up. They're also great for platinum soldering/welding...

This stupid thing here is essentially a scam based on similar technology. The creator makes all kinds of claims, saying the flame wont burn your hand, but will cut through 1" thick steel plates. It's a "browns gas" or HHO torch. The technology is sound, they make fire, and it's a very hot flame. The claims made by the guy selling these system tho are fraudulent at best, and dangerous in general. Also, people tend to think they don't use any electricity, or use very little, to produce the flame. The reality is they draw huge amounts of power to generate the gasses.

[The Madhatter]

Well, it doesn't matter what method/technique/machine you use to do it, it will still take more energy to compress than you'd be able to recover from expansion. I agree there are more and less efficient ways to do ANYTHING, not just compress air, but as long as we're on Earth and not fooling with math, there is never going to be a transfer of energy without some loss, even at the atomic level. Entropy's a bitch.



No offense Doug, but that's the most ignorant statement I've ever heard come from you.

Expressing something as an absolute is fundamentally wrong. The greatest minds of their time used to think that the earth was flat. Who's to say that someday something won't change the way we perceive what's around us. The math might be accurate, but doesn't mean it's all encompassing. Maybe they'll discover there's a source of energy coming from butterflies that at the moment we can't perceive, but someday our technology will advance to the state where it can harness it, with no loss to the transfer of energy. People need to dream, to question the "absolutes", it's part of our nature and it's the reason we can fly into outerspace and not think that those things up there are simply angel's candles sent to make the night less fearful. Heck, 200 years ago the greatest minds would have deemed it impossible to Ever have a face to face talk with someone in another building, much less on the other side of the world, yet now we have web cam's and computer that enable just that.

So, I say, dare to dream you brown gas lovers!

[Greymatter Glass]

Fair enough.... I agree we live in a seemingly infinite universe, and ultimately ANYTHING is possible, when you play that card...

Yes, some day someone COULD, in theory, discover some limitless source of free power that requires no input energy, is self sustaining, and violates every applicable "law" of physics as we currently understand them...

but using that same logic some day I could wake up and suddenly be able to fly. And the sky will be polka dotted green and purple. ...

Nature abhors absolutes, and for the most part so do I (outside of math, that is) so even when I make a seemingly "absolute" statement it always carried an unspoken caveat that "if you can imagine it, it could happen, if you twist logic hard enough" ....

I am saying that within all considerable probability these things will "never" happen. I don't discount that there is a near infinitely low probability that they will....

Dream all you want. I see no harm in thinking about it... it's when people act on their dreams, fail, then get jaded and decide to carry on anyways just to scam others that there's a problem.

[Greymatter Glass]

oh, and I have said MUCH more ignorant things.

[Izzy Spun]

oh, and I have said MUCH more ignorant things.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
:evilLaugh:evilLaugh:evilLaugh:evilLaugh:evilLaugh :evilLaugh:evilLaugh

[The Madhatter]

It's a shame you're so skeptical of what could be Doug. I've always been more drawn to quantum theory than physics.

Here's an interesting video on how to imagine the tenth dimension. I think that we're not just on a mechanical evolution, but also a spiritual one. Who knows what the hell those crafty monks in Tibet are up to. (The Celestine Prophecy trilogy has some theories).

Anyways, this video really made string theory make sense for me, hope you enjoy!

http://www.break.com/index/how-to-imagine-the-tenth-dimension.html

Maybe they'll skip over perfecting things here and just pick it up from the 7th dimension someday...