Glass Pipemaking is the most significant movement in American Glassmaking history.

[slinger]

so in case you didnt know, GLASS PIPES are now OFFICIALLY the most significant movement in the history of AMERICAN glassmaking!!

dont believe me, come down to the Mark Wooley Gallery and see for yourself.... come argue about it in person :) ,,,,

Glass Alchemy is throwing an Open House Party at the Mark Woolley Gallery on Thursday, June 19th.

817 SW 2nd Ave
Portland, Oregon

Happy hour with the artists of Degenerate Art.

Say hello to each other and the gallery before the GAS Gallery Hop

Thurs. JUNE 19
4pm-6pm

We will be serving “Alchemy Ale” brewed for us by Lompoc Brewery

Please RSVP alchemist@glassalchemyarts.com (so we know how much ale to bring)

--see you there!

slinger

[Meerkat]

Wow, wish I could be there....

[UmaJulz]

BE there in spirit!

[Greymatter Glass]

RSVP'd

[$$$$$$$]

does the alchemy ale have any amazon bronze in it?

[jusbag]

Hahah, no but it's filled with NILE!!!!

[bombheadster]

wow, thats awesome. i was thinking about that recently, sort of. that with the growing legalization, or at least acceptance, of the nuggets, that maybe pipes will become more and more recognized as a legitimate art form within the art historical context. any thoughts? think we'll be seeing any jason lees in the MOMA any time soon?

[Mac Maestro]

so in case you didnt know, GLASS PIPES are now OFFICIALLY the most significant movement in the history of AMERICAN glassmaking!!


That's a pretty BOLD statement. Glassblowing was infused with Americas beginnings even in the original colonies. Just off the top of my head, I would say the bottling industry contributed the most to American culture when it reached capability of getting liquids to the MASSES in glass.

Should be a good conversation starter though. I just hope the rest of your arguement is done in a manner that represents us intelligently and not just for shock value. Wish I could be there. If you need any info about places that are NOT progressive in this culture let me know. We are still in the dark ages over here on this coast.

[Swampy]

Slinger best of everything for the exhibish.

The work shown in your link is amazing stuff, innovative and definitely pushing the envelope.

You folks are sooo lucky to have stuff like this to go and see and admire.

[slinger]

That's a pretty BOLD statement. Glassblowing was infused with Americas beginnings even in the original colonies. Just off the top of my head, I would say the bottling industry contributed the most to American culture when it reached capability of getting liquids to the MASSES in glass.

Should be a good conversation starter though. I just hope the rest of your arguement is done in a manner that represents us intelligently and not just for shock value. Wish I could be there. If you need any info about places that are NOT progressive in this culture let me know. We are still in the dark ages over here on this coast.

hah, whats funny is i actually believe this garbage i write.... as for representing, i just represent myself,,,

as for the debate, there wouldnt be a Boro industry like there is today without the pipe industry, period. Ask Henry and Susan at Glass Alchemy. They are the ones representing for us right now, and im very proud and inspired by their efforts. Im just another degenerate just doing me,,,

artistically, Pipes are the first and only mass movement of glass artists in the United States making items that challenge the social and political NORMS.

marbles and vases are SAFE, 99% of the glass represented at every GAS conference is SAFE...

art should challenge and ask questions, and pipes do that, otherwise they would have been accepted into the GAS conference along time ago....

[slinger]

not only that but the pipe scene didnt happen b/c a bunch of artists just wanted to play with a medium, it happened because the public demanded a product, a product that lies in a huge grey area of the law,,, and thats the movement,, no other glass item has had nearly the impact in the United States....

PIPES are way bigger than just "glass items", theyve transcended into its own thing, call it what you want, love it or hate it,,, its the art of the people by the people....

[pacosaki]

I got into working with glass through my collecting of marbles. So I didn't know anything about the pipe scene. I'm not a smoker of anything so what do I need with pipes? Well, I found out the pipe scene and marbles are closely connected and entwined. Many pipe artists are marble makers as well. Many designs we see on marbles came from techniques developed for pipes. It was and is an eye opening experience for me. The art, creativity and skill of the pipe makers is really amazing. They know their medium and they know how to make it do amazing things with apparent ease. After melting glass for a couple years, I know how hard it is to master some the the things these people do with glass. I am glad to see the pipes coming out in an art show. I'm getting tired of going to smoke shops to see this amazing art.

I have seen a chopper by Banjo. The symmetry he gets with all the small sections he puts together to achieve the design is mind blowing.

I, too, wish I could make it up to see the exhibit.

[CCody]

Great show!
I went to the opening night friday june 6.
Mark Woolery gallery , downtown Portland.
it was AWESOME. really nice presentation on the pieces!
Portland oregon is so progressive so I doubt there will be much "shock value" but more appreciation for the amazing art that IS pipemaking. the pieces in the show really demonstrate the pipemaking industry as Artistic and Hard Working!
BRAVO!!!!!!!
ENCORE!!!!!!
next time D.C.??!!
christina cody

[slinger]

haha, yeah, pipes are hardly shocking, many use them daily,,,,

the shock is either OMG, pipes in a gallery?

or

OMG, it took this long for pipes to be in a gallery?

choose your poison...:chilling:

[Micah Evans]

wow, way to go.

[Know Ego]

What you are promoting up in Portland; I consider to be a milestone for what I've dedicated my life to for the last ten years.

In 1998, I felt that I was coming into this medium well behind the artist that were already established. I knew I was artistically inclined but between the advanced work that I've seen in Northern California and Oregon - I sucked.

No matter how I felt about my status, I continued to push myself and my art. I battled through the many sacrifices all pipe makers must endure. Be it obtaining a workspace or supplies, or the dreaded shady shop owner and their slick underhanded deals.

Things have changed dramatically in the last ten years. It's not a secret any more. You don't have to KNOW someone in the biz to start pipe making. I have said it before and I'm gonna say it again: We are at the forefront of an American glass revolution!

Slinger, you and the rest of the Degenerate crew are making history! I wish I could be there. Thank you for your dedication and your willingness to openly defy the old belief system.

I got carried away, but this shit is important!

Matt Bain says No Stress.

[budman8778]

Damn i wish i could be there, keep pushin the bar slinger

[roger parramore]

I'll be there and we can talk about it. R

[Micah Evans]

I know this may sound silly, but what about the old Studio glass movement of the 1960's?


Wish I could be there to talk about it, have fun! looks to be a grand olde time.

[Swampy]

Excellent. Spoken like true pirates! Good luck you guys.

[slinger]

I know this may sound silly, but what about the old Studio glass movement of the 1960's?


Wish I could be there to talk about it, have fun! looks to be a grand olde time.


what about it?

what makes the pipe movement unique is that it was the demand of the smoking population that made it happen. I wasnt someone who just "wanted to play with glass". Au contrair, i just wanted to smoke a bowl. Next thing i know im a "glass artist"... society fueled the movement, its unique in its organic-ness as opposed to a group of artists that are trying to play with a medium and make it happen for themselves, it was the opposite of pipes, the medium chose US, i didnt give a shit about glassmaking, and i surely would not care about Robert Mickelson, Roger Parramore, or a clear flared goblet by Cesare, if it wasnt for pipemaking's introduction into the world of glass... pipemaking made glass cool for a whole new generation...

without pipes i would never notice a goblet or paperweight, im way more interested in Sonic Youth, Lil Wayne, Banksy, and the Coen Brothers to notice a marble with a flower in it LMAO....

anyway, dont listen to me, im just talking shit to get your attention,,,,, come down and let the work speak for itself....

arigato,
slinger

[Big Jay]

not going to pretend I know anything about the pipe movement but I got a little story to share.
I was at a hot shop that was demoing art in the 10,000 dollar up range. A gentlemen was talking to Maestro about wanting Maestro to go back to making pipes so he could get a new one. Since I had just starting apprenticing with Maestro I was really interested in why this guy was so adament about having Maestro make a piece for him when he can go down to any store and buy one. He turned to me and said "this is the art I like. I can't afford these 10 and 20k pieces but I can afford a 300-400 dollar pipe. Its the art I like, I put it on my wall for christ sakes or my curio cabinet, I don't even smoke. Its beautiful."
I have to admit still to this day I don't fully understand why out of all the art he can buy he wanted a pipe. But I guess if you look at the tourist traps selling peace pipes with a couple feathers hung off a leather strap its not hard to understand. If there was some acceptable religous exprience tied to it or a romantic notion of times gone by, not only would it be acceptable it would be trendy.

[Braden Hammond]

Glass Pirates ...... I'm in!! Can't wait till I get to Portland.

[Mac Maestro]

Lol. Im sick of hearing about this "Maestro" guy. ;)




Rock it out, SlingBot!! We're all behind you!
I always thought ART was some fruity pretentious rich people B.S. We are all evolving INTO art naturally and it's a beautiful thing.

[Big Jay]

Lol. Im sick of hearing about this "Maestro" guy.




.

dude I have no interesting stories about my own life so I have to tell yours.

[JANKYglass]

what about it?

what makes the pipe movement unique is that it was the demand of the smoking population that made it happen. I wasnt someone who just "wanted to play with glass". Au contrair, i just wanted to smoke a bowl. Next thing i know im a "glass artist"... society fueled the movement, its unique in its organic-ness as opposed to a group of artists that are trying to play with a medium and make it happen for themselves, it was the opposite of pipes, the medium chose US, i didnt give a shit about glassmaking, and i surely would not care about Robert Mickelson, Roger Parramore, or a clear flared goblet by Cesare, if it wasnt for pipemaking's introduction into the world of glass... pipemaking made glass cool for a whole new generation...

without pipes i would never notice a goblet or paperweight, im way more interested in Sonic Youth, Lil Wayne, Banksy, and the Coen Brothers to notice a marble with a flower in it LMAO....

anyway, dont listen to me, im just talking shit to get your attention,,,,, come down and let the work speak for itself....

arigato,
slinger

preach !!!!
besides the crappy choices in music your dead on.i only learned to make pipes because you couldnt find anything but crappy claws and spoons around hear in the 90's.
good luck with your show.

[Micah Evans]

:dieslaugh

very nice.

you kick ass Slinger, I really hope I get to work with you at some point. Thanks for all the hard work you put in off the torch, it shows the passion so many lack to be great.

[Bglass]

thanks slinger for helping bring notice to our movement... id have to say from just hearing you talk and speak your mind (which relates to our art and who we are) you are pationate about pipes, culture and our movement... i believe you are our ambassador!!!! loved you and your bros stuff at the show.

thanks for helping bring portland alive.... about twenty people i know all went to the show, just knowing pipes for what i make it as.... none of them blow glass which is awesome, because they all now have this mass appeal to our art and creations more so then they ever did before....
when i was there i was seeing old couples and high class people wander through and thier jaws drop in awe because all of it was so beautiful. for once our art was represented well and in perfect gallery setting with perfect lighting.... i got some pics that are off the hook of everything... i took about 350, some make the picture art in itself!!!
so to all who are thinking about seeing it DO IT!!!! this is the biggest thing for glass and pipe making right now!!!
i was at my buddies shop last night and hanging out was cowboy, salt, merc ect......
and more are coming up... all week portland is off the hook..... this exhibit has brought Portland to the map for glass, when Eugene was and maybe is the mecca, Portland has been foreshadowed.... all week we get to show off that we have it going on and im proud to be part of our little movement up here.... everybody check out the movement up here.... and go to gas and go to the exhibit... thats all .
thanks.

[slinger]

that means alot to me that you took the time to post that, thanks blake see you on thursday!

[Robert Mickelsen]

Glass Alchemy is throwing an Open House Party at the Mark Woolley Gallery on Thursday, June 19th.

817 SW 2nd Ave
Portland, Oregon

Happy hour with the artists of Degenerate Art.

Say hello to each other and the gallery before the GAS Gallery Hop

Thurs. JUNE 19
4pm-6pm

Ummm... the gallery hop is Friday, not Thursday. Is this just worded awkwardly or do you have your dates wrong? The Thursday time also conflicts with the opening reception which most conference goers will be attending.

RAM

[Micah Evans]

i hate to say it, but that would be classic pipemaker organization.:D

[nickglassdood]

Glass Pipemaking is the most significant movement in American Glassmaking history


well i couldnt make the event and it sounds awsome, wish i had. its doing great for pipe art, pipeartists, and artists all around ......
but to play devils advocate and keep the dialouge rolling,,,, do ya think the guy who invented the bottle making machine may have still had more impact in american glass? maybe we can still beat him Michael owens in ohio, i think, then he either sold it to everyone making bottles or "financed" it to them. thats the way i remeber the lecture. no one else could keep up. i think it pretty much stopped the mass production of hand blown bottles forever. i remebred all this, from a lecture, a lady from weaton came and gave during one class at salem. she also talked about the jerzy green, which was a kind of glass that tinted green from some kind of sea shells being an ingrediant. but we all thought it what happend when ya drank the tap water. it was actually a wicked cool lecture, talking about how new jersey was the perfect place for glass production back in the day . it naturally had sand from the shores to be used, marshes for the weeds to be used as packing for the glass, and water ways leading to the major citys nyny, dc, philly the way safer way for shipping a shit ton of bottles back in the horse and buggy days ahh and something about all the guys could go fishing in the summer when it got wicked hot killa lecture cant believe i remeber all that.. she also kept talking about winda glass (window glass) thats how they said it in the jerz

if someone wants to edit the above to make me sound smart or gramar correct i dont mind ( bored mod hint?)
heres a cut and paste for this link http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/sgt/gt/2005/00000046/00000003/art00003

The Owens machine, the world's first automatic bottle-making machine, was conceived by Michael Joseph Owens, himself a skilled blower, when he was factory superintendent for E.D. Libbey in Toledo, Ohio, in 1898. Semi-automatic machines, notably that of Ashley and Arnall, had been in use for a decade but they all relied on several workers, including a skilled gatherer to feed them with gobs. The crucial advance made by Owens was to devise a machine that gathered its own glass by suction from a pool of molten glass. The generous support of Libbey enabled Owens and a small team of colleagues within a few years to develop a practical and well engineered machine which was first offered to glass manufacturers in 1904. The development of the machine is here followed largely from the series of patents obtained by Owens and his colleagues.

so prove me wrong slingtrong
<-------off to work on my reverse ball making machine

[The Lorax]

http://www.sha.org/bottle/Glassmaking/owensillustration.jpg

[Ben Burton Glass]

I wish I could be there to check it out!!! I haven't been to a GAS conference in a few years either... Keep holdin it down !!!

Aloha

friggin island in the middle of the ocean, no where near anything glass related and fun, friggerinmphhhhh

[fumalicious]

wish I could be there too... hope it goes well!

[Greymatter Glass]

Great Show! Great Ale, Horray!

[nickglassdood]

ne1 got pics?? i wanna drool

[mer]

show is tight y'all. seriously, if you can make it you won't be disappointed. sorry no pics but i bet somebody will be posting some up after the show finishes it's run.

[Meerkat]

:dieslaugh

you kick ass Slinger, I really hope I get to work with you at some point.

I had the opportunity to work with Slinger and screwed it up by moving out of the country, but at least I got to work with him during the first 2 months of my glass career. Slinger was the inspiration that got me into glass, and although his skill and what he made were definetly factors, what made me the most passionate about glass and glass pipes was his views and activist attitude towards the glass pipe scene. I still have far to go, but someday I hope to work with him again and be proud enough of something I have made to show it to him.

I hope that didn't sound too weird, but you made a big difference in my life path, man.

[lucky]

What's goin on sat or sun?

[boxfan willy]

Would it be fair to say the pipemaking is the most important
"studio glass" movement of our time.

This is not to take away from pioneers like Henry Halem, Dick Labino, Dudley Giberson and others of the 60's furnace movement. I just don't know if there were 10,000 studios around 10 years after the popularization. I'm sure the economic barriers of a hot shop was a contributor, whereas we don't have that large of a barrier.

We are a group of craftspeople and dedicated artisans that is self-sufficient. We are raising families, building studios, schools and holding events that are rooted in a pipemaking background. No grants necessary. We have spread knowledge amongst ourselves without holding back. Many have gone on to have "prosperous" art careers while many others who never made pipes are influenced by our movement and the techniques used in our particular craft. I love making marbles, but raising a family and keeping my shop running was not happening off my dedicated stint in contemporary marbles. What did I do? Blow the dust off the bowl push!!!

I am also very pleased to say that in all the years of The Flow all of the of checks we have cashed for subscriptions, we have had only 5 checks bounce to my knowledge. 3 of those contacted us before we knew.

Flameworkers(not just pipemakers) have been the most honorable, sharing, self-protecting group of people I have ever had the pleasure of chilling with. Gotta love the outlaws!

Respect,

boxfan
www.theflowmagazine.com

[kbinkster]

The Degenerate Art exhibition was amazing, simply amazing. It was great to see that GAS included it with the mainstream events (there was even an invitation to the event in the welcome bag). I was also very glad to see so many flameworkers represented at the conference.

Oh, by the way, the galllery was just a couple of blocks down the street from the Police Department. It must be art.

[Robert Mickelsen]

I had the pleasure of attending the Degenerate Art opening Thursday night and have to say I was mightily impressed. Great work, great ideas, great people. A very enjoyable event. Next time you should insist (offer to fund) a show catalog so that those who could not attend get a chance to see it as well as creating a permanent record of the event. Standard proceedure in most mainstream galleries.

Congratulations!

- RAM

[JANKYglass]

good idea RAM i would buy one.whoever did the work on pakohs book did a good job for what i thought was a good price.for 10 bucks you could have some quality pics of some work you could never afford.

[Pakoh]

thanks to everyone who came out to see the show.

if you wernt able to make it, you can check out my pics on thataintart.com

http://www.thataintart.com/index.php?option=com_gallery2&Itemid=27&g2_itemId=23522

i heard GAS snub our show by taking it off their gallery tour.

Janky- Pakoh did the work for Pakohs book...

BIG THANKS TO SUSAN, MARK WOOLLEY, AND THE WHOLE GLASS ALCHEMY CREW FOR ALL THEIR HARD WORK PUTTING THIS TOGETHER!!!!!!!!!!!

[Snurf]

wow great show! Pakoh it would be great to see the names of the Artists in those photos. thanks for the tour

[Greymatter Glass]

Awesome show guys. That was some of the most inspiring and inspired work I've seen in a while. The reception was great with an amazing turn out. It was great to finally meet so many of you, and catch up with those I've met before.

As for the venue, The Mark Wooley Gallery is a top tier gallery in my book. The Augen Gallery next door houses Warhol, Dine, Jasper Johns and Joan Miro prints for sale (like a museum with price tags) so I have no doubt your work is in good company. I heard Mark was injured right before the reception, so my best wishes to you for a speedy recovery!

As for the politics of GAS, I think everyone who needed to be there got by to see it, so what if they snubbed you, maybe it made the show better?

Anyways.... great times, I would certainly buy a catalog, or several actually.

-Doug

[kbinkster]

i heard GAS snub our show by taking it off their gallery tour.
I didn't realise that.
:(

[JANKYglass]

i knew you did the work in your book but didnt realize you did the work "on" the book.good job.

[Thomas Grimmett]

hi everyone... just to clarify, Susan Webb spoke with GAS and we were not intentionally left off the tour. The gallery was on the map, but they had the wrong address for the bus tour and felt really bad about the logistical mix up.

Fortunately, Mark Woolley preempted this with his formal invitation to collectors that included the brochure and a map from the hotel to the gallery. This show got a great deal of buzz and we are confident that the collectors did make it to the gallery on their own time.

Also, there is another group of collectors coming through later this week and Susan is working on contacting them to ensure they stop in.

This was a great show that came together as a result of the collaboration between Glass Alchemy, Mark Woolley and all the artists. Glass Alchemy is proud to be a part of your community. Together, we made history.

Thomas

[indicablue_]

sounds great

[slinger]

yo sorry for the confusion RAM, the thursday thing was just a happy hour, i had assumed that people knew that the opening was Friday evening,, oh well im glad you made it by!!!

i just posted a couple more pics on my blog for anyone interested:

www.marbleslinger.blogspot.com

[roger parramore]

Cool stuff

[Frankie Hess]

Damn, all I can say is, how'd they do that?

I got a lot to learn about glass, that's for sure. Thanks for the links Slinger!

[superstupid]

those knot work pieces by scott deppe might just be the illest shit ever!!

[Mac Maestro]

Wow.

OK, Screw the bottling industry. ;)
That stuff should be shown to the World.

[slinger]

Wow.

OK, Screw the bottling industry. ;)
That stuff should be shown to the World.

pics dont do any of the work justice, it was my first time seeing Salt's work in person and i was floored by it,,, love it,, and Scott Deppe!!! jesus christ allah buddha and moses....

thanx to everyone who made it out!!!!

and yes, im still working on the film.,,,, :blowkiss::bangHead::o::puzzled::shifty:

[Micah Evans]

Sweet stuff, thanks for the pics!

how were sales?

[yinzer]

man those are some sweet pics. looks like it was a great show. props to you guys.

[Thomas Grimmett]

hot off the press...

The local paper, The Willamette Week, has published another blurb about The Degenerate Art show. Susan talked to the gallery today and they had to call in back-up because the gallery was so busy.


Degenerate Art: The Art and Culture of Glass Pipes

http://wweek.com/events/3432/14/

As a curator, Mark Woolley has a knack for showing artists at the cross section of lowbrow, middlebrow and highbrow. How else to describe Walt Curtis, Debra Beers, and Anne Grgich? Now, Woolley has a show of fanciful glass pipes (yes, the kind you smoke weed from) that is not Chihuly or Richard Marquis, but is positively delightful for what it is. A meatier companion show from Einar and Jamex de la Torre features work that is visually inventive, witty and packs a sociopolitical punch. Mark Woolley Gallery, 817 SW 2nd Ave., 224-5475. Closes June 28.


Thomas

[superstupid]

screw bottles!!!! drink from bubblers!!!!!

[slinger]

lmao @ the "bottling industry"...

what did they give you??

EXPENSIVE TAP WATER in a BOTTLE FOR $2!!!

new world water, thanx bottling industry!

[Mac Maestro]

Hey, new inspiration for a wall/piece?
-The price of bottled water is more than gasoline.
-Americans throw 38 billion water bottles a year into landfills -- $1 billion worth of plastic.
-24% of bottled water is actually tap water repackaged by Coca-Cola and PepsiCo.
-Quote from Coca-cola: "Vending machines and coolers are by far the largest estimated contributor to greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions within our systemwide operations. They produce three times the estimated emissions of our manufacturing facilities and more than five times the emissions from our fleet."

[slinger]

Hey, new inspiration for a wall/piece?
-The price of bottled water is more than gasoline.
-Americans throw 38 billion water bottles a year into landfills -- $1 billion worth of plastic.
-24% of bottled water is actually tap water repackaged by Coca-Cola and PepsiCo.
-Quote from Coca-cola: "Vending machines and coolers are by far the largest estimated contributor to greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions within our systemwide operations. They produce three times the estimated emissions of our manufacturing facilities and more than five times the emissions from our fleet."

i feel like Matt Eskuchie(sp?) did an amazing job with his installation of perfectly sculpted glass bottles and "trash" spilling out of a garbage can....

[HOSS]

Just amazing.

Any hints on how that celtic tech is done? I can't seem to get my head around it. :puzzled:

[slinger]

Just amazing.

Any hints on how that celtic tech is done? I can't seem to get my head around it. :puzzled:

its not much of a tech, its hand drawn with alot of patience, and some careful planning and forethought... although scott has figured out lil nuances to make them way cleaner and more original than anyone else trying these types of filla patterns...

[Big Jay]

Thats hand drawn? Holy shit.

[Celcius]

Congrats to all the artists and organizers.
The show was awesome!! There were lots of GAS people there on the Friday night gallery walk. I do not think there was any snubbing going on.

Here's some pics from the scene on Friday night. That's Slinger in the cap and glasses.

I picked up a few extra brochures from the show. Any of you who did not get to see the show in person and would like a copy, PM me your mailing address and I will send one to you. First come, first served.
cheers,
Joanne

[slinger]

nice joanne, glad you mad it through!

[skip]

I'm so pissed I didnt make it in to the second room. damn it lol....

[roger parramore]

I can't help but wonder which university will set up a lampworking program because of this show, or which public funding agency will suddenly recognize the importance of lampworking, or which mother will suddenly decide lampworking is what her kid should be doing. Take it for what it's worth. Just food for thought. Nice work though.

[skip]

I am so glad I didn't get into flameworking for any of the above reasons. No offense but the show was not about any one of the things you mentioned Roger. You don't get it? It's about a counter culture movement not what a kids mom thinks or a university or money.

It's the fact that there is so much talent involved with something society has made taboo, a pipe. They are outlaws who don't really care about public funding. That doesn't mean they should not get recognition though. Come on look at the work. It is as good or better than any other work at GAS.

My take on it is the show was more about acceptance than being a positive role model for the system or a mommy. Some people will never accept that though.

[nickglassdood]

maybe he's pissed cuz he cant push a str8 bowl

[Big Jay]

It's about a counter culture movement .

wow I didn't get it either. Thats dissapointing.

[slinger]

shit is punk rock, your mom aint supposed to like it...

universities are bullshit...

"check out the valedictorian, scared of the future while i hop in the DeLorean,,,"

[mer]

i took my mom. she thought it was great.

[yinzer]

my mom would probably like it...

she digs on pipes and such

[Micah Evans]

It is what it is. its pipemaking. no more no less.

it was before the show and it remains the same.

[VinE]

It is what it is. its pipemaking. no more no less.

it was before the show and it remains the same.
Im sure you did'nt mean to offend anyone micah, but your comment seems a little belittling.
If you think of pipemaking in terms of memes, I think it would be hard to argue against slingers statement about it's signifigance.

[roger parramore]

Actually I was responding to the title of this thread. Maybe you missed my point.

[3 rip min]

what is the most significant movement in American Glassmaking, roger?

[CitizenNot]

butt plugs

[$$$$$$$]

nile blowouts.. Nile is so tight, that you can only back nile with dichro not vice versa

[slinger]

I can't help but wonder which university will set up a lampworking program because of this show, or which public funding agency will suddenly recognize the importance of lampworking, or which mother will suddenly decide lampworking is what her kid should be doing. Take it for what it's worth. Just food for thought. Nice work though.

is this the criteria for an art movement to be significant?

[3 rip min]

nile blowouts.. Nile is so tight, that you can only back nile with dichro not vice versa

this was a pretty good post but the one that really made me laugh for some reason was when someone asked for help with blowing a big bong bubble and you said, " add dicro"..

[Robert Mickelsen]

Come on look at the work. It is as good or better than any other work at GAS.
I saw the show and am willing to state that the work was really good... but it was not better than any other work at GAS. Sorry... but did any of you catch the Clifford Rainey Retrospective at the Bullseye Gallery? Stunning, jaw dropping exhibition. No way the Degenerate show even comes close to something like that.

Look... part of the whole point is that pipe makers are dissed needlessly and the show demonstrates that they should not be. Like any genre of glass art pipes now have a place at the table. Welcome aboard boys... you have earned it.

For anyone who may have missed it... my favorite Rainey piece was a room installation titled "Art Committee". The walls were covered with outsized cast glass penises. http://www.bullseyegallery.com/Artist-Detail.cfm?ArtistsID=366


- RAM

[skip]

I didn't get a chance to see that exhibit. I was referring to the work I did see at the auction and the demos. Sounds like I missed some good stuff. I got to watch Lucio's demo that was off the hook.

[Mr. Wonka]

What criteria would confirm the claims that pipe making is “THE MOST” significant movement in American glassmaking history? Some people might argue that it was the early days of the United States such as Jamestown, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, or the home studio movement of the 1960’s / 70’s (Chihuly / Pilchuck).

Perhaps it could have started with Corning who developed the borosilicate glass we work with today… or Paul Trautman for bringing to market the colors we have adapted for use in our art / craft.

What about our predecessors such as Bill Rasmussen, Harold Hacker, Homer Hoyt, Lewis Wilson, Mickelsen, Emilio, Bandhu, Parramore, or the countless other people that have paved the way for us... willing to shatter the glass curtain by sharing their in techniques and styles?

How about torch companies such as Fischer Scientific, Premier Industries (National), Carlisle, Bethlehem, etc that preceded GTT?

None of what we do today would be possible without the above mentioned people, places, companies, and ideas that came before us. I’ve heard time and time again that ex pipe makers (such as myself) have “forgotten their roots” when they moved on to other forms of glass art. I have not forgotten my roots… I remember and embrace the same “roots” that many of you refuse to even recognize. Pipe making would not exist if it were not for the people that came before us and developed products, pushed boundaries, shared information, and paved the way for the current movement(s).

On a final note: you / we have made many strides in the current glass market thanks to all of our predecessors. By the same token, we are paving the way for future generations that will push the limits and boundaries far beyond what is being done today and make modern pieces look like old school crap: just like a piece from 10 or 12 years ago that was made with 15-20 reverse balls… and actually changed color when you used it!

Pay tribute to, and recognize the people who have come before you, and hope that your name, work, talent, and legacy will live on as long (or longer) than those that have done the “leg work” for the modern day glass worker, pipe maker, or whatever path you have chosen to pursue.

Much love… Tom

[Celcius]

RAM,
Thanks for reminding me about that hilarious penis piece. (well, I found it funny) That piece was made to challenge social and political norms too.

Yes, the Clifford Rainey show did make my jaw drop. It had almost a sacred aura about it. But the pipe show made me happy and filled me with excitement for the future. Glass pipes have come of age, and this show felt like its coming out party. It was very significant to my eyes. I guess the next question is, now that it has gained acceptance (at least in the glass world), will it lose its edge? I'm guessing not for a long, long time.

Keep on meltin'

[mer]

Come on look at the work. It is as good or better than any other work at GAS.


I saw the show and am willing to state that the work was really good... but it was not better than any other work at GAS. Sorry... but did any of you catch the Clifford Rainey Retrospective at the Bullseye Gallery? Stunning, jaw dropping exhibition. No way the Degenerate show even comes close to something like that.

i wonder if either of you might elaborate on this thought. i'm uncertain as to how art can be better or worse than other art. are you speaking about what you personally preferred or are you addressing something quantitative about the craftsmanship or the creativity displayed? i agree that both shows were amazing, it just never occurred to me to rate them against each other since they seem to be so different.

i'd also like to say that this thread is one of the best discussions that i've ever seen here. thank you all for the intellectual stimulation.

[skip]

damn I got quoted twice in one thread lol...

Let me rephrase my statement. I originally responded to that on a break and typed it pretty quickly. The original statement doesn't convey the point I was trying to make.

The new and improved statement is

Come on look at the work. It is as good or better than a lot of the work at GAS.

I am speaking about the work like Scott deppes celtic knots and Clinton's work in general. Those are pieces I say to myself damn how did they pull that off?

I didn't see much work at the conference that made me say that. Eschuke's trash did though that's for sure.

I am sorry I missed the exhibit at Bullseye. Sounds killer.

[slinger]

well RAM and WONKA you still didnt prove that anything else is bigger or more significant than the pipe movement...

Paul Trautman wouldnt still be making color if it wasnt for glass pipes.

Glass Alchemy would not exist if it wasnt for glass pipes.

GTT would not exist if it wasnt for glass pipes.

Dichro Alchemy wouldnt exist if it wasnt for glass pipes.

Chihuly and Pilchuck and Corning may have laid some foundation, but all they did was pioneer a medium...

WE, the PIPEMAKERS, pioneered a MOVEMENT... a YOUTH movement with our own social and political ideals

what was social and/or political about the studio glass movement?

We pipemakers are just young bucks, give us another 10-20 years and you'll see whos running this glass world...

Boro lampworking is the most utilitarian form of glassworking,,, the common man can afford a studio and have a voice... and i know that the studio movement might have had that idea too of moving glass out of the factories,,,, but the lampwork movement took glass from the rich who could afford a furnace and glory hole, and gave it to the have-nots and disenfranchised...

[slinger]

see the main difference is that the other glass movements are just people striving to work a medium..

our movement is people striving for a voice in society,,, its secondary that the pipes are even made out of glass,,, the glass is the less significant aspect of the movement....

its the PIPES.

all the Pipes we make, from prodo to art pieces send a message politically and socially in this country,,, doesnt even matter WHAT medium they are made from....

the pipe movement TRANSCENDS glass making and the industry...

[slinger]

i dont even consider myself a glass artist...

the glass is irrelevant.

[slinger]

like when inner city kids were spray painting trains with graffiti in the 1970's and 80's that spawned a world wide graffiti art movement...

it would be ridiculous to start saying that Krlyon spray paint was responsible for the graffiti art movement, or that the inventors of spray paint should be praised for their role in graffiti...

people had a want and a need to appropriate space in the inner city, and they used the tools and things they had at hand,,,

same as us,,, we just wanted to make pipes, it just happened to be torches and glass we used, b/c it was what was available and logical at the time...

[lucky]

graffiti art as well as pipes inspired me to enter the glass art community. The ability to showcase your pipes as funtional art adds an element that is not felt through "mainstream art" pipes are meant to be shared amongst friends, not be imprisoned in a museum available for viewing fives business days a week.

[Chris Carlson]

breakin the law, breakin the law.

[slinger]

i didnt know who robert mickelsen or lewis wilson was when i started making pipes.

i was probably at least 5 years into before i heard their names.

and mr mickeslon and mr wilson can THANK pipemakeing as the only reason i even know who they are, let alone give a shit.

pipemaking made glass cool to me.

pipemaking afforded me and inspired me to take a mickelson class after i was already making a living lampworking for 10 years.

but mickelson and wilson didnt play ANY roll in my desire or introduction into lampworking.

for that i would thank Bob, Hugh, Tory, Dave and Amy, Ezra, Seth G, Pat K, and last but not least the Grateful Dead and Phish for making the commerce side happen...

[lucky]

hey slinger, it's great to see you so passionate to state the validity of pipes in our society, as well as the making pipe art what it is today. props man!!!

[Big Jay]

I guess you have a pretty strong point about glass being brought to the masses through pipes. But I'd have to think most peoples exposure to lampworking comes at a much younger age through places like Disney World or even small soft glass demo stores. I know my love affair with glass happened when I was a little kid watching people make cheap soft glass products on a small torch then followed by seeing hot shops in Mexico.
I really thought you were saying that just because its pipes does not mean it can't be art. There are a lot of pipes out there that I'd like to put in my china cabinet next to the other glass art I have bought in my life. You see a lot of old world tobacco pipes being collected by people that have no interest in smoking. I truely thought the point of what you were originally saying was that you were trying to elevate pipes from just the counter culture underground.

[nickglassdood]

i guess i could blame phish

right on tho slinger rock out

<----off too use new inline

[Bglass]

i love it when slinger posts!!!!!
the dude can construct a sentence with more VOICE and PASSION than i even see the soft glass world do with their glass art.....

as far as pipes go.... i have also to state that the one thing that got me into glass was pipes........ making clay and stone and wood pipes in and out of school, then seeing that i can make this social tool out of GLASS... "sickk" i said to myself....


now the funny thing again.... never ever did i appreciate the works of roger, RAM etc, i didnt know they existed... i never cared until i said "Hey They use and form glass the way we or i do" now i look up to them!!! but in a way that i can also respect and appreciate that they themselves are just dudes in a studio.....
but meanwhile the whole time making sick art....

but also in retrospect they have to make a name to make money we all need....
the funny thing is that i myself could really care less about making impacting art with my name on it and selling it as nice art glass..... its a underground movement which in turn always affects more peoples lives than some other stuff...
my parents are business people, arnt down with movements and stuff.... but my passion about skating and art and pipes has changed them slowly over six years into some pretty cool people!!!! knowing that my dad has never hit a pipe and hes now telling me cool ideas for pipes, and realizes now that i make a decent living and i absolutely love what i do.... something his generation hasnt allowed them to fully do... hes grown up knowing nothing but work your ass off raise a family be happy and die....
im showing him, live everyday to the fullest make money off of it and dont give a shit what a person thinks of you.... now hes changed my mom, now hes a better father and now his coworkers and employees and happier and the same goes for my mom... shes way tight now...
so if you ask what could some parents learn from a glass pipe... who happen to be those university teachers and run those big fancy corporate businesses? well just my parents are the people who you would have never thought, and now they tell their friends and family what i do proudly!!!!! so in my six years of pipe making and despite where and what people have tried to get me to go do(school, other jobs and industries etc), i have bettered and changed the way my family and their direct friends and so on and so on and so on all through a pipe.... now they care about glass now that they are all informed about glass and now they appreciate a love for modern art glass... their now all appreciating those expensive fancy goblets that they have been putting liquids into to all these years to get drunk !!!! http://www.thegldg.com/forum/images/smilies/bigGrin.gif
:D

i like to make pipes!!!!! straight up...... it pays and im happy.... its one of the most challenging forms of glass in my mind to become consistent and fluent in.... considering that most of the pieces at the pipe show have one persons time of a minimum of 15 to 24 straight hours of mental execution and love.....

i spend fifteen hours on a piece that could crack anytime, and ive spent days on a piece to only have it crack at the end and make no money off of it, spending sometimes hundred or more dollars that i dont have.....
but you know what?????? i LOVE IT to DEATH!!!! and feed off of it. and i can tell u that i will break countless many more and waste a ton of my time, money and personal relationships just for making pipes... its who i am and what i love.

the funny thing is that i have made my living solely off glass, for the first three years i focused on trying to make the "respected" living off glass... markets bazaars and craft fairs... would i do good? i made twice the money in less the time than i do pipes..... ive made more money off Christmas shit and pendants than my pipes accumulated, no joke.... but you no what its "EASY" to do that when you have 7500 to 25000 people a day at these events who all want to blow money....

i can make a perfect goblet all day, but do you know why? cause ive flared
way to many inside out points to care or even no.....

i can make some the sickest pendents you would see and make extreamly nice and round marbles, i did it for matt and misha for a year... but do you know why other than their effort, cause ive made way to many marbles to stick on the side of pipes, before and after and so has matt thats for darn sure!!!
so all of these things are great and cool but really they dont fill my desire to turn on the torch and make stuff....
pipes do tho...
so as i said it its TOO easy in my own mind to go that route and frankly i dont care.. "if its too easy its not worth doing"

its all kinda Just like when you could get thrown in jail for graffiti and fined, which happens all the time...
just like when you can do grinds down 38stair hand rails first try( see my good buddy gravette in "AND NOW" biggest set of stairs ever done)
but the second time fall and bust your hip open to unusable for weeks and do it with a broken ankle!!!! none the less..... for what? just for the love of of it....
so i say i make pipes just as these MOVEMENTS do thier thing, and its all for what?
The LOVE!!!!

now i cant say that ill make my living off of pipes for the rest of my life, but ill guarantee that i will always make them..... and continue to give them away and use them or talk about them....
sorry about my long random thought of the day, but i felt if anybody cared it might be fitting for this post....
which i have to agree to that its one of the best weve had....
im not trying to be demeaning or and ass, just conscious and thought provoking....

[Mac Maestro]

WE, the PIPEMAKERS, pioneered a MOVEMENT... a YOUTH movement with our own social and political ideals

It's been 12 years in glass since I first started with this 'youth movement' and nothing is as it was. My rebellion has changed form into creating new markets that either did not exist before or were strictly for off hand blowers. The MOVEMENT has evolved and frankly I can't wait to see the tree that grows from these roots.

[roger parramore]

Slinger, you may want to be careful in that if glass really has nothing to do with it why the thread?

[The Lorax]

i love pipes and everything they have brought me.

[slinger]

Slinger, you may want to be careful in that if glass really has nothing to do with it why the thread?

yea, im not presenting a cohesive P.O.V. really, im just trying to stir the pot to get people thinking, challenging, and expressing their opinions...

if i just posted come to our glass show, this thread would have been off the first page pretty quick im guessing..

[roger parramore]

I understand. I just got busted on by sizelove for showin a little passion, piss, and vinegar.

[boxfan willy]

Sounded like piss and vinegar. Where's the passion?

boxfan

[Hefe]

one thing i see in the glass pipe community that I dont see in the "other art" community is COMPETITION. everyone wants to get better, see if they can pull off something bigger, more technical..see if they can make a piece just a little bit sicker than their buddy across the shop or across the country. Its all about support and friendly competition..I think thats part of the reason for the amazing advancements and variations we are seeing in pipemaking today.

[matte eskuche]

i've been reading this for a half hour and i'm reminded of something RAM said a bit ago in the context of the current pipe-making culture. he noted that for the most part what is once counter culture becomes mainstream. i would agree with him in his opinion of holding on to that underground status before it's bought into. or it sells out... i'm having trouble imagining the sex pistols or the early dadaists look so eagerly for approval.

i thought the work at the Degenerate show was excellent in many arenas: craftsmanship, concept, decoration, out and out scary weird face morphs, etc. and struck a great balance between tradition in the last couple decades of pipemaking and the breakout technical and conceptual elements that drive a lot of the work out there today. i can't see how the show was so spectacular though. i looked at it with the eyes of an exhibited artist and wondered why it was so bright in there, when the artist slide shows and lectures were going to be held and where the wine and European chicks were?

i'm quite happy to see what's going on in flamework as a result of pipes, and to not see it. pipes and the manufacture of them is illegal in Pittsburgh and the pipemaker count is at none and holding. lets hear it for those folks hiding out in Arizona and other no-tolerance states risking jail time for the cause!

[phab]

...mes thinks pipe makers have done more and work harder than making a bunch of dicks to hang on a wall. its a great artist/political/andy warhol statement to hang dicks on a wall but its not a new concept. an art student not too long ago did a video of a big black dick walking down the street, it had something to do with obamas running for president and it was funny as hell....oh shit, this is about glass...no wait .....its about dicks on a wall....no no thats not it....... dicks that blow glass....no wait the women blow glass too...shit what was the topic?

great thread slinger

[roger parramore]

Sounded like piss and vinegar. Where's the passion?

boxfan

I guess that comes from duking it out with glass for 37 years. By now I think it's just assumed on my part, maybe not so obvious from your pov. But no prob.

[slinger]

ill tell you one thing, i cant wait for glass pipes to go mainstream.

edit>
the reagan era spawned the hardcore/punk scene in the united states.

the clinton era spawned glass pipes.

as for the show, it was great, but they can always be better, the whole thing was "thrown" together in a matter of months with the artists having little to no notice and Susan and Henry scrambling with many factors to make it a reality. So judge it as you will, it is another small pebble cast by our small scene into the web of society, and more will continue to be cast...

personally i do feel like we are like garage bands and graffiti artists;

i for one think glass pipes, like graffiti, might not ever be properly displayed within the constraints of the gallery's four walls,

both types of art like to live and breathe out in society, in the streets, sometimes for people that only choose to look for them,,,

But its nice to be able to show your work to people, to society in general, OR even specifically the Glass Arts Society.

I have been to the GAS conference before, and i cant ever show what I do with glass openly at the event.

THANK YOU Glass Alchemy for helping give us that chance this year.

no one is trying to have an ego and say glass pipes are the best, or the end all be all, if you read anything i write in that vain than you are missing my sarcasm,,

really its just reverse psychology. when you're stereotyped and alienated enough you just embrace that and just double up on your pride.

[roger parramore]

Nice. I saw a decent movie lately "Whole Train." A german flick that really touched in a nice way the more below the surface aspect of graffiti as an artform. In many ways there are parallels to the pipe world.

[matte eskuche]

it wasn't fitting in and i neglected to properly verbalize it, but that's what i was trying to get at when i wrote about being "happy to see what's going on in flamework as a result of pipes, and to not see it." the dudes studio and the conversations had there tend to be much more interesting. the work is in context to the persons personality. the music being played, the pictures on the wall, the food in the fridge, the dog or whatever. it's a much more appropriate venue for the work than the noise of hundreds of pipes climbing over each other hoping to be noticed before that Chinese spoon walks out for a fiver. the stuffy white walls seemed an odd placement to me too, i guess.

i wonder, is it a huge deal to any of you to utilize your design sense, your skill, your ideas, your forms, your pride in your craftsmanship, your newest trick to make objects of whatever form or function? i would find it sad that you can't express your joy and excitement about your work because you've painted it into a corner filled with legal and social issues. is the underground/rebellion factor that partial to the work?

i'm often really curious why some of the pieces i see with tons of labor and tons of attention to design aren't executed as an object without function. maybe a vessel with a form that provides more of a canvas for the design aspects of the work. obviously i have my own aesthetic trying to force it's way into the room here, but sometimes i see a really successful technical feat crowded out by a really busy pattern or really amazing patterns forced to conform within the formal constraints of functioning object.

or is that akin to getting signed to a major label and getting 8" x 10" glossies and a spot on TV?

[broken glass]

trust fund artists don't make pipes, mostly. haha

[Robert Mickelsen]

Intent is king. Why make pipes? Is it to make something beautiful to smoke out of? Really? Personally, I would be appalled to see one of Scott Deppe's magnificent Celtic Knot pieces used to smoke <edit>. To me, that would be as disrespectful of his virtuosity (although he might disagree with me) as drinking wine out of a Lucio Bubacco goblet. That said, how would his piece read if it were NOT a pipe? Could it stand alone as a vehicle to show his amazing techniques? I believe it could, but he would then risk losing his comfortable audience and plunging into the world of glass art in general... a place where amazing technique is common and competition is intense. Is this a risk Scott wishes to take? I have no idea.

I have a huge amount of respect for pipe makers. I recognize their contribution to the medium, but to turn your argument on its head Maestro Slinger, where would pipe makers (and by extension lampworkers in general) be without the massive popularity of <edit> that created the massive demand for pipes? All of us owe a debt to an illegal substance. Credit where it is due, amigo.

It is often stated that pipe making is counter-cultural and revolutionary, but I have never seen a greater degree of conformity in any medium than I have in glass pipes. For years it seemed that everyone was derivative of everyone else. For a long time and in many cases it seemed like only the artists themselves could distinguish one pipe-maker's work from another's. I know I sure couldn't. As the medium has matured and evolved this is now beginning to change in a big way. Evolution states that eventually pipe functionality will become a secondary concern to art aesthetics. This is already happening as was clearly visible in the Degenerate Art show. How much longer will it take before they are no longer pipes at all? Why push a bowl into a Celtic Knot masterpiece? How much courage does it take to step away from what has always been comfortable and safe? Where is the incentive to try that? The Degenerate show provides part of the answer, but not all of it.

If you go out to your studios and make something using all of that incredible technique you have spent years perfecting... only you don't make a pipe, what will you make? The answer to that question lies at the crux of this discussion. It is a question I ask myself every single working day.

Intent is king.

- RAM

[matte eskuche]

good point about the stagnant, somewhat impersonal design aspect of the majority of pipes, i've often wondered how the wig-wag managed to lodge itself so strongly into the aesthetic of pipemaking.

but, to play devils advocate to myself, i do see nuanced little approaches on it from different makers. could be the purism of a certain genre? like as in bluegrass, or jazz.

[mer]

i think that the wig-wag aesthetic came from old 60's and 70's concert posters and the whole psychedelic art movement.

maybe it's because i've been knee deep in pipes for almost 10 years now but each artists work still looks unique to me. i haven't paid as much attention to goblets and i couldn't tell one artist from another in most cases. i think it's probably a perspective thing.

[somberbear]

in past cups were mass produced and sold , same for any vice. people spend money on vices. pipes is a staging ground , like making production cups and prep work is.

wig wag logded and got popular becouse of the people buying. i make a ton of stuff that isnt inspired and is all technical over and over formula peices. its production like any production. but its needed in order to keep the lights on while you refine your tool box of expression. thats not to say i dont try to make the best product i can.

i got started in pipes. i knew it was an open market. but im not a piper, i find when you let a product any product own you. your not a lampworker. your in a box. it messes with your thinking and can keep you small. i dont like that i think when you define yourself and your glass its narrows the beautiful feilds you can explore. and cause agitation and fights that arnt really there. i mean the same can be said for beads as an ave. for getting into glass.

the pipes movement provided the rocket fuel for a mass of glassworkers. just like the studio movements made stained glass accessable and spured its growth i think lampworking is a little less acessable due to equipment cost and thats saved us so far from what happend to the stained glass movement. As pipers grab and grow and sprawl out and get there fingers burnt things will contenue to escalate. i think its important , the market trends pushed and pulled and forced many to be better if not for them self but also by market force. i think it has benifited many in this tough business , its ok to be a starving artist but that doesnt cut it for most i like my pizza tyvm.

I would also like to say i have much respect for many of you in this tread. those i have met and those i havnt. i believe all of you could teach me a thing or two as well. Roger ill be looking forward to seeing you at agi this year. Robert as well always a high point in my agi experiance. slinger in future i hope to meet you in person i enjoy your work and even how you can stir up a little controversy. and for all those i have not mentioned ill hopful see you all as the years march on.

and none of this is agro. im just looking at the basics. i dont know if its art i do it cause i love it. i love the molten glass the forming of ideas and seeing how i form my medium and my medium forms me over time. its a partnership to me. me and my material when i find beauty in some one elses eye i know im doing something that makes me happy and thankfuly them.

peace
rob

[Micah Evans]

when I look at the pipe movement as a whole over my career I see major changes in technology, color, tools and the pipe itself. Thank god for the demand for these things for they aided the rapid development of our craft over the last decade especially. god knows where I would be if it wasn't for pipemaking. With that being said, I came from a Art background first and then found glassblowing and then found pipemaking so here is what I see.

I see a group of artists comfortable with the object they make, a craft object that holds no conceptual attachment for the most part. I have seen over and over again pipemakers attempt other traditional craft objects like goblets for example and fall on their face. Rarely do I see a piper attempt a piece of serious nonfunctional sculpture or conceptual work of art.

i see a movement of young artists frustrated at their inability to create anything well but a pipe and instead of working to make more serious artwork they are trying to change the definition of serious artwork to fit what they make. i see it as lazy and it really doesn't surprise me considering what the pipes are typically used for. that may sound kind of harsh but hey, it is what it is. its pipemaking.

And if you guys really believe that pipes are soooooo edgy and unsafe and progressive in the glass world and that soft glass and the rest of the glass world is boring and safe you need to wake the fuck up and open your eyes. research glass galleries, look at what techniques are out there from offhand to casting to laminating to sandcarving and coldworking. look at the artists and backgrounds and subject matter and realize edge resides in the idea not the object.

pipes are possibly the SAFEST subject matter for pipemakers

[Pakoh]

when I look at the pipe movement as a whole over my career I see major changes in technology, color, tools and the pipe itself. Thank god for the demand for these things for they aided the rapid development of our craft over the last decade especially. god knows where I would be if it wasn't for pipemaking. With that being said, I came from a Art background first and then found glassblowing and then found pipemaking so here is what I see.

I see a group of artists comfortable with the object they make, a craft object that holds no conceptual attachment for the most part. I have seen over and over again pipemakers attempt other traditional craft objects like goblets for example and fall on their face. Rarely do I see a piper attempt a piece of serious nonfunctional sculpture or conceptual work of art.

i see a movement of young artists frustrated at their inability to create anything well but a pipe and instead of working to make more serious artwork they are trying to change the definition of serious artwork to fit what they make. i see it as lazy and it really doesn't surprise me considering what the pipes are typically used for. that may sound kind of harsh but hey, it is what it is. its pipemaking.

And if you guys really believe that pipes are soooooo edgy and unsafe and progressive in the glass world and that soft glass and the rest of the glass world is boring and safe you need to wake the fuck up and open your eyes. research glass galleries, look at what techniques are out there from offhand to casting to laminating to sandcarving and coldworking. look at the artists and backgrounds and subject matter and realize edge resides in the idea not the object.

pipes are possibly the SAFEST subject matter for pipemakers



you can say the same thing for glass in general.

JUST BECUASE IT IS GLASS>>> DOESNT MEAN IT IS ART

[The Lorax]

i see a movement of young artists frustrated at their inability to create anything well but a pipe and instead of working to make more serious artwork they are trying to change the definition of serious artwork to fit what they make. i see it as lazy and it really doesn't surprise me considering what the pipes are typically used for. that may sound kind of harsh but hey, it is what it is. its pipemaking.


ummmmmm. ok.:twitch:

[slinger]

i wonder, is it a huge deal to any of you to utilize your design sense, your skill, your ideas, your forms, your pride in your craftsmanship, your newest trick to make objects of whatever form or function? i would find it sad that you can't express your joy and excitement about your work because you've painted it into a corner filled with legal and social issues. is the underground/rebellion factor that partial to the work?

i'm often really curious why some of the pieces i see with tons of labor and tons of attention to design aren't executed as an object without function. maybe a vessel with a form that provides more of a canvas for the design aspects of the work. obviously i have my own aesthetic trying to force it's way into the room here, but sometimes i see a really successful technical feat crowded out by a really busy pattern or really amazing patterns forced to conform within the formal constraints of functioning object.

or is that akin to getting signed to a major label and getting 8" x 10" glossies and a spot on TV?

well my answer to that question is that first off, the reason i make pipes, straight up, is i get paid. Especially right now with the sandblasted style i've been doing for a few years (thank you RAM), i cant make enough product to meet my demand. I am making more money than i ever have off blowing glass right now, and im really enjoying that after years of struggle.

I get offered to teach ALOT, and i turn most of it down because i can make more money and have more fun and freedom making pipes in my studio.

My experience with galleries is waiting to get paid.

My experience with headshops is getting paid.

<edit>

As far as making other stuff non-fucntional, well i do.

Did you see my "glass paintings" at the show?

with those i removed any "function" and presented my work straight up on canvas, id be interested in any criticism on those pieces,,,, i was trying to show the evolution, the work i do on my pipes is merley a skecthbook for a future canvas....

im working on a few major projects and bodies of work that are not pipe oriented in any way,,,

[slinger]

Intent is king. Why make pipes? Is it to make something beautiful to smoke out of? Really? Personally, I would be appalled to see one of Scott Deppe's magnificent Celtic Knot pieces used to smoke pot. To me, that would be as disrespectful of his virtuosity (although he might disagree with me) as drinking wine out of a Lucio Bubacco goblet. That said, how would his piece read if it were NOT a pipe? Could it stand alone as a vehicle to show his amazing techniques? I believe it could, but he would then risk losing his comfortable audience and plunging into the world of glass art in general... a place where amazing technique is common and competition is intense. Is this a risk Scott wishes to take? I have no idea.

edit>


edit>

But besides that, its the money Robbin. Its a good living.

So as for intent, the intent is to get stoned, and to make money. Im not even kidding, that was definitely what drove me in 1997 to sit in front of a Victor welding torch.


It is often stated that pipe making is counter-cultural and revolutionary, but I have never seen a greater degree of conformity in any medium than I have in glass pipes. For years it seemed that everyone was derivative of everyone else. For a long time and in many cases it seemed like only the artists themselves could distinguish one pipe-maker's work from another's. I know I sure couldn't. As the medium has matured and evolved this is now beginning to change in a big way. Evolution states that eventually pipe functionality will become a secondary concern to art aesthetics. This is already happening as was clearly visible in the Degenerate Art show. How much longer will it take before they are no longer pipes at all? Why push a bowl into a Celtic Knot masterpiece? How much courage does it take to step away from what has always been comfortable and safe? Where is the incentive to try that? The Degenerate show provides part of the answer, but not all of it.

yea well thats where we are also in line with the subcultures of graffiti, tattoo, and skateboarding.

in graffiti, it has been important within the culture for certain basic styles to be passed down, and for anyone to know the craft, they had to be able to execute certain CONVENTIONS of the culture.

handstyles(tags), throw-ups, bubble letters, straight letters, funk, wild-style(computer writing) are the basic foundations of writing graffiti. when a graf writer wants to be known as a true king within the community, they not only have to get up in many places, and develop their own style, they must also be a master in all these fundamentals.

same with glass pipes, is a cultural thing. A true king of the pipe scene can do it all. They can do tight line work, they know all the tricks and techs, they can sculpt, rock horns, flat canes, dichro, whatever... its our Conventions and our little language within our scene,,,

what i realized when i asked many pipemakers about this topic, is that most pipemakers make their work to impress OTHER pipemakers. Its kinda funny, but true, alot of us just want to impress our peers, its that friendly competition thing we have in our scene, who can out reverse who, etc etc...

its just like graffiti, most writers write graf for other writers. Only people really interested in graf will walk the train tracks and see the real pieces and battles.

The sub-cultures are introverted communities, more concerned with the opinions of peers then any "outiders".


If you go out to your studios and make something using all of that incredible technique you have spent years perfecting... only you don't make a pipe, what will you make? The answer to that question lies at the crux of this discussion. It is a question I ask myself every single working day.

Intent is king.

- RAM

Installations is what im working towards.

But what about those paintings i did Robbin. They cant get you stoned. lol

[kbinkster]

I particulary liked the Assault Girl, Slinger.

[slinger]

good point about the stagnant, somewhat impersonal design aspect of the majority of pipes, i've often wondered how the wig-wag managed to lodge itself so strongly into the aesthetic of pipemaking.

but, to play devils advocate to myself, i do see nuanced little approaches on it from different makers. could be the purism of a certain genre? like as in bluegrass, or jazz.

yea i think you answered your own question.

people who like wig wags, see all the lil nuances different makers use and thats the fun of it.

people who dont like wig wags just see something undesirable and dont pay much attention.

just like music.

if you like heavy metal, or rap, or jazz, you love all the lil differences in styles of different artists.

if you hate rap then it all "sounds the same".

its just noise.

[slinger]

when I look at the pipe movement as a whole over my career I see major changes in technology, color, tools and the pipe itself. Thank god for the demand for these things for they aided the rapid development of our craft over the last decade especially. god knows where I would be if it wasn't for pipemaking. With that being said, I came from a Art background first and then found glassblowing and then found pipemaking so here is what I see.

I see a group of artists comfortable with the object they make, a craft object that holds no conceptual attachment for the most part. I have seen over and over again pipemakers attempt other traditional craft objects like goblets for example and fall on their face. Rarely do I see a piper attempt a piece of serious nonfunctional sculpture or conceptual work of art.

i see a movement of young artists frustrated at their inability to create anything well but a pipe and instead of working to make more serious artwork they are trying to change the definition of serious artwork to fit what they make. i see it as lazy and it really doesn't surprise me considering what the pipes are typically used for. that may sound kind of harsh but hey, it is what it is. its pipemaking.

And if you guys really believe that pipes are soooooo edgy and unsafe and progressive in the glass world and that soft glass and the rest of the glass world is boring and safe you need to wake the fuck up and open your eyes. research glass galleries, look at what techniques are out there from offhand to casting to laminating to sandcarving and coldworking. look at the artists and backgrounds and subject matter and realize edge resides in the idea not the object.

pipes are possibly the SAFEST subject matter for pipemakers

no offense micah, but you sound bitter, and sound like you need to get stoned.

also, id say you havent been hanging out with the same "stoners" as me, cuz you really are bent on a stereotype.

listen, we dont make pipes cuz we are "scared of making serious art" or staying safe in our stoner worlds,,, we make them because

1) it pays the bills
2) they are fun
3) i like to smoke
4) i like appealing to my peers

im working on some things that can cross over to the "maintstream" art world,,,

but really i dont give a shit about doing anything but making work that mocks society as a whole and give it the punk rock fuck you.

other than that, i love supporting pipes and stoners, cuz its who i am, and what i believe in.

before i made pipes i was president of the Hemp legalization club at my college. no joke, i consider this shit activism, and i meet random people all the time that get affected by encounters with "art pipes", and it fuels me to continue...

[slinger]

my question to Matt Eskuche is how do YOU make your living?

do the "trash" installations pay your bills and feed you?

i saw your thread about lack of attendance at classes, so it seems this is/was your bread and butter....

do you think you can make a living just making "pure art"? making
"whatever you want"?

i wish i could.

its the dream right?

but i dont have a trust fund, and my parents are broke so i make pipes,, and the pipes are leading me down that road towards doing whatever i want, transcending pipes altoghter,,,

but im not gonna pop in the art world and say, hey look at me, im from nowhere, im gonna show them how it started, and thats with pipes....

i emulate the graffiti artists of the 70's and 80's who are now world famous fine artists today...

No one would pay $10,000 for a FUTURA piece if it werent for the documentation of his body of work painting trains in his youth.

How bout Banksy?

heard of him?

Look him up, his canvas' fetch over $500,000 these days, and its because of his prolific body of stencil graffiti that makes his canvas so valuable.

I dont study the "glass art model" of how to do business and make art, i study not only art history, but art NOW, im studying Warhol and Murakami,,, im coming from the streets, not the univeristy or from backpacking to Murano,

[Bglass]

the thing i love most about our culture/movement is that despite that we are all trying to one up each other, and make the same thing and same living we all(pipemakers) love to give respect and credit where its due in our little world....

the reason why i think we get all up heaved together and make a stand and force a movement and a actual change in glass is that as pipemakers we can all appreciate and respect what another pipemaker is putting in their kiln.... and on top of that you can ask your peer "how did you do that"

i sat and puffed with deppe and crew, i said to deppe how can you continuously work on a flip for six to ten hours?!!! let alone when i work one for an hour it can crack or whatever.....???? he told me in the mellowest mood and with modesty what i might be doing wrong and how i can improve it!!! totally broke it down for me for about twenty minutes. one of the most inspiring moments of my career and life. to have someone sooo respected and soo underground who is almost untouchable be this friendly to another peer is well basically why we all make pipes and glass.
we continuously travel and bunk up all over the world and GIVE out FREE knowledge and share whatever someone wants to know for nothing... just for friendship, now if someone can truely point that out in soft glass or fine art please show me the same similarities from that to our pipe movement...
as far as soft glass work goes, ive seen so many ufos and flying saucers to not even care about the medium anymore.... pouring some glass in a peice of sand that was pressed from and already formed object just doesn't give me passion or a feeling, it makes me bored... my buddy worked there at bullseye, hes batched every pot on his shift for about two years, millions of tons of glass. its an entry level job and when i applied i was not hired due to the fact that i was somewhat informed on soft glass and its process.... the fact that i drove down the beach here in oregon and washington and living here my whole life seeing all the make shift throw up hot shops almost make me sick... i passed about twenty all with BLOW YOUR OWN FLOAT, that says to me not much, when i walk in its all just another float dipped in water, cracked and re melted and made into a floppy bowl or disk, the fact that the almost same NICE CANVAS of glass art vase has been done for about a couple hundred years isnt that cool.. and all this accumulates to when i stayed at my girls parent beach house they all go have you seen the Chihuly exhibit in tacoma, and then i go oh you mean the works of twelve other peole with out their names on the peices work.... yeah thats pretty cool i say....
now pipes, um well you cant just go, "HEY" come blow your own pipe. it takes so much self sacrifice and time to become proficient in our medium that in my mind it deserves soooo much more respect than most glass out there..... How many goblets of the same shape and form have been done to date over a 1000 years??? even with the advancements given to us in glass, and equipment and colors how many people have tried to push away from their comfortable clear goblets... i respect Mr. Steve Sizelove for this most of all, he takes these things, tools, glass equipment and forges out some of the nicest forms of a vessel i have seen from anybody!! let alone i have seen some sick "one way Spirals" from him and its all done STICK STACK OR INSIDE OUT!!!. i would definetly jump up to buy one of his works of art!!! i myself can relate to that.....

i appreciate pipes soo much, that i jump at the chance to buy a piece of glass from a peer. even though i can make a lot of tight stuff and if i sat there and made a few i could probably imitate what i love to spend my hard earned money on, i have boght to this day about 1ooo in pipes from my peers, and as far as i can count its only been about 4 pieces..... two from my old mentor matt g, when cowboy was up here i somehow scrapped up 200 bones for a pipe... just a pipe..
which in turn at the party everybody loved using, it brought so many tight artist together its unreal, everybody appreciated cowboys work, let alone loved using the pipe. name a big piper and for sure they loved using it tooo!!! it was too coool to see everybody cometogheter for just a bowl.... the funny thing is that, its just a nices small shaped piece with six reversals. i make reversals everyday and everybody in the room does too, but for somereason its almost not even the art or peice but the person themselves..... thats why i can say id almost now never by a goblet or a piece of art from someone else who choose to not understand what we do or why, when in turn its COMPLETELY Common knowledge why we are who we are...

the thing about it here is that as far as glass communities go this is one of the fastest moving web based formums for glass, with a ton of active users, we are here right now discussing it.... but whats funny is out of all the internet has to offer we here have the most compelling and thought provoking conversations and topics about glass i think to date.... heres the catch about all of the really active users here make pipes. and this forum was started cause of pipes, its owned and opperated by old pipemakers..... so in saying how does this pipe movement effect glass in general....
well ill just say for an example all of us has effect say Mr. roger(no offense)
to post what he likes in glass, then we all show that hey thats cool but its not our deal.... we completly respect your work in a way, but we the pipe makers made you in my mind uncomfortable in the fact that all this respect twords pipes have made some of the "elite" left out.
i say thins because i was the only one here who posted something saying most pipemakers can bust out goblets no problem cause of inside out flaring.... right after my post almost right after you posted "Ok Badasses lets see it" i feel in that conversation you switched it over to you saying you were trying to provoke a good example of goblets, when in fact to me i felt you where hurt from my statement....there was no dis to you in anypart....

sooo in turn it goes like this..... most if not everybody in that sort of art is accomplished and been blowing for at least a decade in a half..... they are in their forties and fifties maybe sixties.... we all here that make pipes with passion and soulfully are around me 24 through 34.
so in saying that its like how my dad always said "we used to walk in the snow barefoot to school" "we didnt have this or that" so on and so on..... so if we think about it the conflicts and derogatory statement twords pipe and pipe makers comes from this generation...... i can go to any college and see some of the smartest straight edge kids doing thier thing, if i were to pull out a pipe and smoke a bowl on campus in front of them how many would care? here on the west coast, i think its almost safe to say that anyone of them wouldn't care at all... im just trying to state that our movement here our culture that many dont understand is well one of a different generation and now as it is a completely different day and age.... to be sorry at most i have to say well its our ballgame and our turn, we are making the election we are changing the world. it isnt just glass its our time and now our court. the older generations make new ones and this is it. this is why we stand up, beacuse the oleder generation paved a way for us to speak or minds differently. and in turn is nothing like or fathers and ones before us.... who could care less about making a statement, they were never really tought to.... and i can safely say when my girls kid grows up, it wil be also different and then jaded.

the one thing i can say is that all of my glass goes to one or two dudes, they buy everything i make and i literally cant keep up what so ever.... the funny thing here is that with the falling economy, why am i still selling more pipes than ever more than that of goblets and fine art and continuing to flourish in this shitty time??? it almost shows that in reality people care more for our simplistic forms of art that is a pipe than most other works???
my buddies shop generates 1500 to 2500 a day in pipe and headshop sales. this is a minimum. most the shops here on the west coast are making a minimum of 20,000 to 50,000 a month on pipe sales, and headshop shit, now let look at tattoo shops and piercing... who doubles that. fact of the matter is that underground and taboo are happening, the question is can everybody else keep up with and change? can they accept it?
from this should i in my best interest start a gallery or a head shop? i think its a no brainer there....

the one thing here micha evans is that i enjoy your glasspipes gallery ten times more than your glass artist gallery, ive followed and seen every post you made two years ago. i believe that i see more love and voice into just one of those tripple penetration pieces than a caged structure or your goblets... this sounds bad but dont take it that way its actually a really good thing. here on the forum and glass pipes we have a following of people saying "hey Micah" make more pipes!!!!!! to think that more people want to see your pipes more than anything, is a position i think all glass makers whatever their calling is would love to have... so kudos to you and know that in fact we absolutely love you pipes...

i read somewhere from max pollin that hes broken countless pieces and just been sick to his stomach about glass... but yet the next day hes turn on the torch and goes right back at it.. to think how many big pieces with 20 to 60 hours of time and many dollars ate the scrap can... same goes for me two....
but what really gets me is who told max that he could make a 20 pound bubbler over a whole week straight and have it turn out??? how did he know as a pipe maker that it was possible????
to think with that much mass, weight and color any wrong heat base, wrong weld or even the slightest flame where it shouldn't be could make it go to shit...
that to me folks is a true pioneer and one HELL of a lamp worker!!!! i would love to see him hand it over to any soft glass maker, any thin goblet specialist or anybody who works glass for that matter be so calm and precise when their wrist is going to fall off and they could fuck up 25 hours of work possibly a 3000 dollar bubbler!!

and also from meeting the guy, and talking with him i dont think scott deppe would putt 20 to 30 hours of disk flips on a pipe if he didnt expect someone to use it let alone love it as a pipe especially doing it for ten years plus... to tell you the truth there is no doubt in my mind that he himself could pull off the most amazing and beautiful work of just art glass that would make stuff at gas even look jaded. to tell you the truth from hearing the guy speak he is a glass genius, almost a scientist. to think of what he could make is well ridiculous. if someone contracted him to do a goblet or just a piece i guarantee he could make most goblet makers and fine art lamp workers look a fool. but right back at the funny thing, with as much skill and power he has with glass he has always made pipes and i believe he will continue to do so. so my many props and thanks goes out to a pipe maker mr. deppe.

the problem here is that im so passionate about pipes and people and creating things and love i could probably write for days on end.... and i would if it weren't for me maybe thinking im going to piss someone off i might keep going. i love all of you cause we are all glass makers with the same passion... GLASS!!! so where is all the love at? id love to start seeing our curtain keep being pushed for the mere fact that most of us in different situations would probably be best friends...
so peace.

[Bglass]

Sling your the shit bro!!! to think i still hold you up there as one of the most intriging and thought provoking glass artists out there or whatever we should call ourselves.
much respect and its great to know your just a humble dude with a sideways hat saying "FTW"
peace.

[matte eskuche]

let me just dispel a bit. i'm really looking for answers to classes canceling in order to salvage what i think is valuable about the major institutions that bring in the major teachers. i have a huge bias about the technique that can be garnered from these teachers and the institutions that host them. nothing really of concern for my teaching career personally, i'll figure out what it is i want when i want it and go get it.

how do i make my money? some from teaching, some from the claw tools, some from the trash. mostly that's it these days. it used to be from those things plus craft shows, but i cut that shit out since i suck at selling my work and don't care if someone buys my work unless they are dying to have it and dropping money on the floor in the process.

i'll be the first to say that it's pretty creatively stifling to make production work, which is what the trash is to a large extent. if i had it my way, and i was smart enough to pursue it more, i would have major patrons, grants, and residencies providing the income and platform for absolutely uncompromising creative exploration in any and every medium i could possibly experiment with.

SOFA is just another kind of headshop, if you ask me. the patrons just voted for Bush more often to protect their huge piles of money.

i think it's an attainable dream. to make whatever we want. your work is interesting me more and more through these threads. i'm not necessarily compelled by the overall aesthetic, but it does prove more powerful when i hear the messages and ideas behind it.
something in the last post struck me -

"in graffiti, it has been important within the culture for certain basic styles to be passed down, and for anyone to know the craft, they had to be able to execute certain CONVENTIONS of the culture.

handstyles(tags), throw-ups, bubble letters, straight letters, funk, wild-style(computer writing) are the basic foundations of writing graffiti. when a graf writer wants to be known as a true king within the community, they not only have to get up in many places, and develop their own style, they must also be a master in all these fundamentals."

this is fucking great, in the art/craft circle my work would circulate within, it's frowned upon to use someone else's aesthetic or mimmic their technique. to have your work tied in to closely to someone else's in these ways. it just lacks individual creativity and shows a lack of consciousness in your conceptual leanings.

i'm reminded of a story i heard a while back about some murrini makers in Murano. who cares if it's true, they apparently were battling back and forth through murrini. one guy made a face with a smile. the other guy replicated that same exact face but gave it a smirk, the first guy went back made the face with the same smirk, and with his middle finger scratching his ear. the second guy went back made the face with the smirk scratching his ear with his middle finger and wearing tee-shirt that said "fuck you". the first guy went back did all that, but the shirt said "your grandmother in a wheel chair" which is apparently a pretty bad dis in Italy.. so i modernized the story, but what a fucking blast it must have been for them. i envy this when you enlighten me about the pipe world. i've got a pretty late start, but can i get in on the fun?

p.s. i can do a mushroom pendant and the old school fume and rake.

[Bglass]

i love matts enthusiasm to be part of conversations, it shows your love for all things glass and my respect for you has gone up even more.... all the while not steeping on toes.(maybe ill take a class one year!!!) but as it is you sound like a great person and teacher. you got your head on straight and you are very knowing in you current stance and the world around you.....props.

it would be funny to see one of those pendants bracing a really nice foot and a vessel... seems like that stuff is up you ally!!

much respect.

[roger parramore]

A lot of stuff is being said here that needs to be said. And it can, will, and probably should go back and forth. One of the strongest notes I hear is the fact that pipes make money. It seems to resound as the major justification for making them. Their artistic value, aesthetic senibilities, the technical mastery seems to revolve around the fact the sell. At some point you simply have to separate in your own mind why you blow glass and then relate that back to your "art." If you are in fact only in it for the money, then it seems your only motivation is money. So, you are constantly locked into a competitive situation. In other words, if you don't do something to get the bucks the guy next to you will. Take the goblet thing for example. Goblets don't sell worth a shit unless you are recognized as a cup maker. It takes one hell of a lot of dedication to the material itself to reach that point. The perfection of technique becomes the end in itself. The appreciation of how the material works, moves, and acts becomes the soul satisfying end. There is so much animosity towards the cup. Why? Because it doesn't fit the pipers definition of a successful piece, i.e., there ain't no money in it. Also, more subtley, there is no competition in it. The only competition is with yourself. So cup making just doesn't fit into the plan. Why are goblets so much more accepted by the public ? There are a number of answers to this question. But one is tradition and time. Another is the recognition of the committment to the material the cup represents. Anyone who knows cups knows the artist aint in it for the money. Like it or not, that type of thinking is what moves a piece out of the craft world and into the art world. One of the appeals of the studio glass movement that is being overlooked is the simple fact that artists were taking the material itself in new and different directions. It was not so much technique based as it was material based. Piping seems to be more focused on the technique that makes the money, not the one that takes the material to a new place. Whenever you have an established market demand, you will always operate within your comfort zone. I hate to play the card, but some of us have been pushing the envelope, working long hours, losing pieces, and all that for thirty and forty years. At some point the reward must move beyond the new technique and most importantly the money. Look deeper for your reason to make art, and the art will find you. You won't have to go around yelling and screaming to convince people it is art. The pipe show was nice, no doubt. But its fundamental premis was to yell and scream to convince the viewer they were looking at art. The difficulty resides in this: It's a pipe first and then maybe art. I don't hear much about it being art first then a pipe. The sociopolitical agenda that the pipers have chosen is their own burden to bear. If you want to convince people it is art, then that is the agenda you have chosen, and along with that agenda comes the difficulties it engenders. You will have a greater success convincing people it is art when the piece itself says it is art, not that it is a fancy pipe.

[slinger]

le
SOFA is just another kind of headshop, if you ask me. the patrons just voted for Bush more often to protect their huge piles of money.

Galleries are just stores that sell art.



your work is interesting me more and more through these threads. i'm not necessarily compelled by the overall aesthetic, but it does prove more powerful when i hear the messages and ideas behind it.

you probably didnt fully realize, but in terms of the pipes i had at the Degenerate Art show, only one of them i actually lampworked myself. That was the sherlock on the stand with the guy spray painting a reversal.

The bubblers there my shopmate Nic made and i blasted. We both agreed that as art pieces, the bubblers themselves are not a good presentation, the use of clear and the shapes are definitely conforming to function and saleablity as opposed to "gallery worthy art". They worked though, in juxtapostion with the paintings, in that i was trying to show that the bubblers were merely carriers of the art work, and that with the art removed and just displayed on a canvas like a traditional painting, it holds up on its own. The metaphor is also their that we are on the cusp of transcending the pipes, graduating from one school and embarking into a different realm.

i have to say the sandblasting technique is humbling. Image is a truly powerful tool. Departing from lines and dots and staring at a blank canvas, whether the canvas is a goblet, bubbler, or flat piece of glass, you are really faced with the personal challenge of stepping up to the plate to have your own voice, and its a scary plate to step to....

The video installation we did is a baby step towards way more elaborate and involved installations that Nic and I wish to pursue. We are in the process of setting up a new studio space that will accomodate our ambitious ideas. It was nice to try something like that, as simple as it was, just to get ones feet wet..

Anyway Matt im actually a big fan of the trash, its actually one of the few glass ideas and concepts that i have seen that has really spoke to me on a personal and deep level. Way more than any glass penis's as of yet.

[slinger]

A lot of stuff is being said here that needs to be said. And it can, will, and probably should go back and forth. One of the strongest notes I hear is the fact that pipes make money. It seems to resound as the major justification for making them. Their artistic value, aesthetic senibilities, the technical mastery seems to revolve around the fact the sell. At some point you simply have to separate in your own mind why you blow glass and then relate that back to your "art." If you are in fact only in it for the money, then it seems your only motivation is money. So, you are constantly locked into a competitive situation. In other words, if you don't do something to get the bucks the guy next to you will. Take the goblet thing for example. Goblets don't sell worth a shit unless you are recognized as a cup maker. It takes one hell of a lot of dedication to the material itself to reach that point. The perfection of technique becomes the end in itself. The appreciation of how the material works, moves, and acts becomes the soul satisfying end. There is so much animosity towards the cup. Why? Because it doesn't fit the pipers definition of a successful piece, i.e., there ain't no money in it. Also, more subtley, there is no competition in it. The only competition is with yourself. So cup making just doesn't fit into the plan. Why are goblets so much more accepted by the public ? There are a number of answers to this question. But one is tradition and time. Another is the recognition of the committment to the material the cup represents. Anyone who knows cups knows the artist aint in it for the money. Like it or not, that type of thinking is what moves a piece out of the craft world and into the art world. One of the appeals of the studio glass movement that is being overlooked is the simple fact that artists were taking the material itself in new and different directions. It was not so much technique based as it was material based. Piping seems to be more focused on the technique that makes the money, not the one that takes the material to a new place. Whenever you have an established market demand, you will always operate within your comfort zone. I hate to play the card, but some of us have been pushing the envelope, working long hours, losing pieces, and all that for thirty and forty years. At some point the reward must move beyond the new technique and most importantly the money. Look deeper for your reason to make art, and the art will find you. You won't have to go around yelling and screaming to convince people it is art. The pipe show was nice, no doubt. But its fundamental premis was to yell and scream to convince the viewer they were looking at art. The difficulty resides in this: It's a pipe first and then maybe art. I don't hear much about it being art first then a pipe. The sociopolitical agenda that the pipers have chosen is their own burden to bear. If you want to convince people it is art, then that is the agenda you have chosen, and along with that agenda comes the difficulties it engenders. You will have a greater success convincing people it is art when the piece itself says it is art, not that it is a fancy pipe.


no actually you are missing some facts here. I said i make pipes to make money. And while many people make a living off of pipes, its not an easy one, or a glorious one. You cant market or advertise your work like a normal business. And there is fierce competition in the market.

My pipes sell cuz i have a name. People are buying SLINGER more than just a pipe. I know this cuz now that i start to put my work on other things whether it be a T - Shirt or a flat pane of glass, people want to buy it. I paid my dues, and i established my reputation amongst a certain demographic.

Same with you Roger, they dont buy cups from you they buy a PARAMORE from you.

I am a college graduate, i could have been making way more money in the real world if i DIDNT blow glass pipes for a living.

shit blowing glass period, for a living, is hard. no matter what you make.

so when i say its the money, its not like bling bling, its straight up survival, and to build your studio and get ahead so that one CAN make that more "from the soul art"

thats whats so sweet we are still YOUNG, and siezing the day from a business perspective is what made Warhol successful...

Takashi Murakami, look him up, he manages to blur the lines btw commercial and fine art,,,

forget the glass world, cups or pipes, its all whatever, look to the greater "art" world, thats where im looking,

dont get stuck in little circles,,,,

my future work will have painting, glass, sound, video, projection, photographym, found objects, paper, clay, wood, feces, who knows....

[slinger]

and btw we dont care if pipes are technically art or not, or craft or which came first the art, or the function, the chicken or the egg...

its all semantics.

it is what it is.

judge each for it's own.

im surprised Roger if you feel the way you do how in the world you still make cups.

I cant WAIT til i never have to make another pipe to pay the rent.

And i believe it will happen for me soon.

But i will still make one once in a while, not for money, but for fun, AND especially cuz i LOVE to smoke pot.

[slinger]

There is so much animosity towards the cup. Why? Because it doesn't fit the pipers definition of a successful piece, i.e., there ain't no money in it. Also, more subtley, there is no competition in it. The only competition is with yourself. So cup making just doesn't fit into the plan.

i have no animosity towards a cup, i simply just dont care about em, and they do nothing for me spiritually, emotionally, mentally, or otherwise.

edit>

There is ALOT of competition in the pipe world. I dont get your perspective, you think guys a few years in are just making big bucks making whatever is popular?

Have you seen how technical Jason Lees pattern work is?

or

Banjo's attention to detail?

and even the big dogs live very humble lives, Jason Lee defines someone who makes pipes simply for the love of it.

Most pipemakers put way more work into a piece than they can ever get paid properly for, shit thats the name of the game in the pipe world,,,everyone competing with themselves and each other.

Man your lucky that pipes made glass cool for a guy like me, or id really be laughing if someone showed me one of your cups and told me that it was art i might like....

out in the real world most people i know dont give a shit about glass period. My friends and i talk more about films, music, and paintings than we do glass..

[slinger]

A One of the appeals of the studio glass movement that is being overlooked is the simple fact that artists were taking the material itself in new and different directions. It was not so much technique based as it was material based. Piping seems to be more focused on the technique that makes the money, not the one that takes the material to a new place. Whenever you have an established market demand, you will always operate within your comfort zone. I hate to play the card, but some of us have been pushing the envelope, working long hours, losing pieces, and all that for thirty and forty years. At some point the reward must move beyond the new technique and most importantly the money.

wait your kidding me right?

dude who do you think buys your Parramore color?

do you have any clue what type of material advances PIPERS have been responsible for in the last 10 years?

ask anyone at any major boro company.

ask them yourself, i already have.

and for real, you dont think that we operate out of a labor of love much like yourself. seriously, your very ignorant of our scene. Shit we push the envelope like NO ONE else in the lampwork boro world, and part of that is the sheer number of heads we have out there busting it out, losing pieces on the daily....

i dont know what you were smoking or drinking when you made that post, but you must be giving us alot of credit if you dont think we lost many a piece to get to the point we are at.... dues have been paid in full my friend, and the art world is about to ante up.

[roger parramore]

Hey slinger, I was speaking in more general terms, not necessarily aiming at you. The money thing is a very loud and resonant note. I didn't intend it as a bling reference. We all have to make a living. I have a pretty philosophical approach to the material. It feeds my soul in ways that don't relate to money. I certainly don't make cups for the money, never have.

[slinger]

You won't have to go around yelling and screaming to convince people it is art. The pipe show was nice, no doubt. But its fundamental premis was to yell and scream to convince the viewer they were looking at art.

have you seen my website, its called www. that aint art . com

we really dont care if its art or not, or what its called.

is skateboarding a sport or hobby?

who cares, it is what it is.

the pipe show was an opportunity for us to show you our work. If putting the work in a place thats called "a gallery" is an attempt to "convince" people that it is art, than fine, it is what it is.

but you must be really naive to art history roger. Dont you know that how the pipe scene is unfolding is how many great recognized movements unfold. Even look at your passion to type in this thread. I love it. I love the hate, i love the love, i just love the attention.

Gimme my fifteen minutes so i can afford the time to go bigger.

So i can afford to make that art piece burning in my soul.



The difficulty resides in this: It's a pipe first and then maybe art. I don't hear much about it being art first then a pipe. The sociopolitical agenda that the pipers have chosen is their own burden to bear. If you want to convince people it is art, then that is the agenda you have chosen, and along with that agenda comes the difficulties it engenders. You will have a greater success convincing people it is art when the piece itself says it is art, not that it is a fancy pipe.

My burden is my strength.

They said rap music was just a fad back in the 80's and look at it now. It makes money, and it has a voice.

"Knowledge is power." Michel Foucault

[roger parramore]

Man, I know the scene really well. I'm not so sure why the attitude. I'm just saying some things to offer a perspective. I'm not your mommy or daddy saying you are wrong, nor am I out to discredit you. If you want to go sentence for sentence OK. Do it. I got nothing to prove one way or the other. But you do. You have a point you want to put out there. You have an agenda to promote. I don't.

[slinger]

Man, I know the scene really well.

you dont know me, we havent formally met, although id love to chat sometime.

and if you dont know me, you dont know the scene.

itd be like me saying i know the goblet scene but ive never spoken a word to Mr Roger Parramore, one of the most recognized in the field.

[slinger]

its funny pipes and cups are pretty much the same fundamental thing.

so all i know, is if a cup was or is ever in a gallery, a pipe deserves the same venue based on tradition, craftsmanship, and concept.

no way a cup has any more, or any less potential to be "art" than a pipe and vice versa.

[lava flow]

True, pipes sell, but other glass items sell for more, proportionate to the time, effort, and materials they use. Earrings, for instance. I can wholesale earrings for so much frigging money, proportionate to how much glass and time I put into them. I mostly make pipes though. Why? Because I think they are the funnest thing to make. From shaping to coloring, size and scale, your options are so varied and spontaneous, so many directions to go in. No disrespect to anyone, but I have not seen as much innovation or variety in other glass art mediums, especially considering that pipemaking has only been going on for like forty years, as opposed to the thousands that have gone into certain other mediums.

Plus, as Slinger points out, and I agree, Heads like to make Headdy things :)

[slinger]

The pipe show was nice, no doubt. But its fundamental premis was to yell and scream to convince the viewer they were looking at art.

see this quote stays in my mind, and i feel its where you missed the point of the show.

we dont care about validating ANYTHING.

BUT, we are an INVISIBLE culture.

and in order for our culture to go the next level, it needs to be documented.

thats how Graffiti went worldwide.

thats how Tattoo art went worldwide.

Thats how skateboarding went global.

Its about documenting the culture.

Not trying to shove it down anyones throat. Just trying to let people know WE exist, WE as a whole, a group of us that feed off each other and inspire each other.

An actual movement, b/c if me anf 100 other pipers died tommorrow, glass pipemaking would live on. It's its own entity now, its own organically evolving family.

You like to display your work for people to see it sometimes, right Roger?

just following tradition homie.

[Pakoh]

A lot of stuff is being said here that needs to be said. And it can, will, and probably should go back and forth. One of the strongest notes I hear is the fact that pipes make money. It seems to resound as the major justification for making them. Their artistic value, aesthetic senibilities, the technical mastery seems to revolve around the fact the sell. At some point you simply have to separate in your own mind why you blow glass and then relate that back to your "art." If you are in fact only in it for the money, then it seems your only motivation is money. So, you are constantly locked into a competitive situation. In other words, if you don't do something to get the bucks the guy next to you will. Take the goblet thing for example. Goblets don't sell worth a shit unless you are recognized as a cup maker. It takes one hell of a lot of dedication to the material itself to reach that point. The perfection of technique becomes the end in itself. The appreciation of how the material works, moves, and acts becomes the soul satisfying end. There is so much animosity towards the cup. Why? Because it doesn't fit the pipers definition of a successful piece, i.e., there ain't no money in it. Also, more subtley, there is no competition in it. The only competition is with yourself. So cup making just doesn't fit into the plan. Why are goblets so much more accepted by the public ? There are a number of answers to this question. But one is tradition and time. Another is the recognition of the committment to the material the cup represents. Anyone who knows cups knows the artist aint in it for the money. Like it or not, that type of thinking is what moves a piece out of the craft world and into the art world. One of the appeals of the studio glass movement that is being overlooked is the simple fact that artists were taking the material itself in new and different directions. It was not so much technique based as it was material based. Piping seems to be more focused on the technique that makes the money, not the one that takes the material to a new place. Whenever you have an established market demand, you will always operate within your comfort zone. I hate to play the card, but some of us have been pushing the envelope, working long hours, losing pieces, and all that for thirty and forty years. At some point the reward must move beyond the new technique and most importantly the money. Look deeper for your reason to make art, and the art will find you. You won't have to go around yelling and screaming to convince people it is art. The pipe show was nice, no doubt. But its fundamental premis was to yell and scream to convince the viewer they were looking at art. The difficulty resides in this: It's a pipe first and then maybe art. I don't hear much about it being art first then a pipe. The sociopolitical agenda that the pipers have chosen is their own burden to bear. If you want to convince people it is art, then that is the agenda you have chosen, and along with that agenda comes the difficulties it engenders. You will have a greater success convincing people it is art when the piece itself says it is art, not that it is a fancy pipe.


Roger, have you ever made anything besides itailian influenced cups and vessels???

it seems like you think it is art because you have been doing the same thing for 35 years.

While the italians have been doing that same thing for many generations before you.

I see very little original thought or concepts in your work. In todays day and age that is weak ground in the "art" world

id be more interested in your cups it they were made out of toothpicks or plastic straws.

[mer]

okay guys, the only two options available to our staff are to clean up all of the discussion of illegal activities here or pull the whole thing. the tos forbids that shit to protect us and you. i'm willing to spend the time it will take to clean up this thread because this is such an important discussion.

edit> okay, it's done. i apologize to anybody offended. i hate to edit.

[Bglass]

my thinking is that art really never has to be the piece itself, but the whole process in general....
how we conduct our selves to each other is an art, just like how the paint is applied to the canvas.
this is the case when there is only the one medium at hand and one way to look at the end peice. in glass there is soft glass and boro so to speak but each one is completely different because how its formed, which makes a totally different end piece.
you then make the process art as it is with painting. there are all sorts of different ways to make the end painting, broken down into soo many forms of strokes and techniques, which then is now the art form in itself.... but each one is valid and credible. there is never one right way to view things...
at the art show pipe makers tried to show that, there is no distinguishing thing in pipes to non pipes if you think of it in the context to art, and glass in general.
its all glass but some wont view it the same as art glass because its a pipe.

i went to the show twice before gas, each time i saw so many random business men and women stroll in off the street, old people checking out portland on vacation etc.... there is people who live in million dollar condos down every street on every block there, and most of them all walk to work to their private garages to lunch etc. these are the people who buy art and appreciate it. we have a demand for it here. in portland its all the same. we display goblets in pipe stores. this is one of the most decriminalized citys in the nation beside, denver and frisco and anchorage.
most of the people walked in and never realized what they were looking at. as if they were babies again and with a creative a mind. just looking at the simplest things, i watched them all turn around jaw dropping and not even knowing still what it was until finally they asked. some left thinking purely that it was what it was just art....
these people care less about gas let alone even know it!!!!! or about glass and how its used formed or the differences in how its made.

this is what point i want to show you roger,( after reading the quote pakoh used) is that the show actually was when the art came first then everybody found out its a pipe. you only thought your way and still do because you know about glass and have your own opinions on it. you know every technique for glass and could probably figure it out....... id hope so after three decades of seeing change.... for you in my mind to sit back all that time and not embrace all the changes and want to try new things we innovate such as techniques only limits you and your art. i believe that you could learn a lot from pipes, just how we all took your fundamentals we learned and applied them to our work. i really dont know if you have or not, you never SHOWED us. i would love actually to just see you make a fine goblet with that of our pipe techniques, we all would really apprieciate it and embrace it and unquetionably call it art.
to you no matter what you will always view a pipe as a pipe. the pipe show effected more non glass people than anything. more people wandered in off the streets to that particular show then when people showed up for gas, pipemakers included. portland and vancouver surrounding areas are a totall of over a million people. pipers and glass makers wernt the only ones who saw the pipe exhibit... especially when its posted in our biggest free bi weekly ads paper the Willamette weekly, which everybody checks to see concerts... the only way you can find a show in portland for every day for a whole month, distributed through out portland and surrounding areas.... this show was going on for a whole month, extended because the demand to see the show was soo huge...
so lets head back to the start of the thread which is now side topic, the show showed that we who are shunned from the glass art society in general not the organization strive off of that thinking and feeling and turn and take it to make beautiful pieces out of glass with no boundaries of scale shape or form and turn it into pipes. it betters us as people and a group of peers thousands strong. where making a point that glass is glass, as far as i see it no one has tried to do that yet but we have with our medium and that is point. we the pipemakers are making the significant movement to step up and to the bar despite all fears. we say hey lets make a change in how we live and grow through a pipe. that counter culture. this isnt all just about glass and pipes its about our world and making changes and thats all our generation knows..... is HOW TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE and CHANGE. so you old glassblowers that have kids who have kids can grow up in a society thats free of belittling, hate, power and most of all segregating differences.

[Mac Maestro]

Thanks Mer. Even tho we may feel due for an open discussion about certain things, here is not the place.
Readers and writers: Please understand.

[mer]

someday brother.....

[Dom]

This discussion is going to spark something that will revolutionize the pipe world. Let it stay.

[matte eskuche]

o.k., i haven't even gotten through all the new stuff here, but i've got to stop you Pokah. one thing: Roger Parramore, and i'm sure he would agree, hasn't ever made a Venetian goblet or vessel. on a basic level, you need to be Italian for that, but on a more soulful level the techniques he uses are as far away from an Italian approach as one could get. points, punties, bringing the glass to your mouth, bringing hot ass bits to it. working fast, etc. is paramount to the experience when working the glass as the Italians do.

and i must say to you Roger, i don't think the 37 years at the torch card counts for a lot when talking about fighting the glass and losing pieces. when i was at it for a year and a half or so my ego started to blow up like mad and i started to think, damn, i am going to be really good at this flameworking shit! then i got a little better and less better and then i started to plateau. and i was thinking, if i just work really hard i can get the next 8% better or whatever. but no, after a while i realized that my dexterity and the teachings of Emilio Santini had helped bring me up fast and that i probably wouldn't get any more technically adept, that i should just give in to the honest mistakes i had been fighting to rid the glass of and let it speak a bit more, not constrain it to fit my ideals of the perfectly spun out foot or re-doing the avoglio six times cause it wasn't perfect. fuck it, the glass has a ton of personality and to let it show gives it more depth than to squeeze it all the time into perfection.


that's what makes folks like Alan Goldfarb or Michael Shunke's goblets so nice, they do the same, just let it flow. but it comes out f-ing perfect to boot.

thanks for the props Sling, i look forward your branches knowing they are rooted.

[slinger]

someday brother.....

why not today?

i appreciate the pm apologizing for "doing what you have to do"

but do you realize that in this world, its always someone apologizing for enforcing rules they dont believe in saying "sorry, just doing my job'...

why not now and here?

we dont discuss cannibis normally here for obvious reasons, but this context is different,,,,


oh well, i just wanted to at least say that b/c it was real fun having this conversation and everyone letting it all fly out....

i just want to add, if FORUMS are a more popular future meeting place for discussions with how much we use the internet these days...

i wanna just say fuck the internet, and fuck forums, and fuck the rules...

and when you understand all that you can really let go and be a true artist.

[slinger]

ps, happy fucking internet july 4th....

praise the eConstitution

[matte eskuche]

and i thank you for the props too Bglass, but i got to stop you. there isn't just soft glass and boro.there is the coefficient of expansion, which goes from 0 to infinity.

[Chris Carlson]

and if you dont know me, you dont know the scene.


yes.

[skip]

I'd say it's way= more a hip hop style of movement than punk rock. With all the bling and ego.

If it was punk rock we would of broke everything and stabbed each other with it by now.

1984 was punk rock.

[slinger]

Man, I know the scene really well. I'm not so sure why the attitude. I'm just saying some things to offer a perspective. I'm not your mommy or daddy saying you are wrong, nor am I out to discredit you. If you want to go sentence for sentence OK. Do it. I got nothing to prove one way or the other. But you do. You have a point you want to put out there. You have an agenda to promote. I don't.

no attitude, just responding to your posts in a clear manner, addressing the issues and questions you bring up...

my agenda is to get money, have fun, travel the world, make whatever art or products i want, and do it my way until i die.

[Pakoh]

o.k., i haven't even gotten through all the new stuff here, but i've got to stop you Pokah. one thing: Roger Parramore, and i'm sure he would agree, hasn't ever made a Venetian goblet or vessel. on a basic level, you need to be Italian for that, but on a more soulful level the techniques he uses are as far away from an Italian approach as one could get. points, punties, bringing the glass to your mouth, bringing hot ass bits to it. working fast, etc. is paramount to the experience when working the glass as the Italians do.



sorry.. my bad. i guess since i dont care about goblets and cups.... they all look the same to me.

[slinger]

sorry.. my bad. i guess since i dont care about goblets and cups.... they all look the same to me.

yeah they look the same,

but one guy punties different than the other guy.

[mer]

why not today?

i appreciate the pm apologizing for "doing what you have to do"

but do you realize that in this world, its always someone apologizing for enforcing rules they dont believe in saying "sorry, just doing my job'...

why not now and here?

we dont discuss cannibis normally here for obvious reasons, but this context is different,,,,


oh well, i just wanted to at least say that b/c it was real fun having this conversation and everyone letting it all fly out....

i just want to add, if FORUMS are a more popular future meeting place for discussions with how much we use the internet these days...

i wanna just say fuck the internet, and fuck forums, and fuck the rules...

and when you understand all that you can really let go and be a true artist.

damn dood. thanks for the benefit of the doubt..... :(

ignoring the issue and letting it slide wasn't an option available to us. if your suggesting that i should have taken a stand and lost my job i think that you're missing the big picture. by supporting people who are trying to become pipemakers we are doing more to raise up the scene than we would be if we took the chance of letting this become a place where evidence can be collected.

i ain't the man. i've been busted and robbed. i've made thousands of pieces. i support this counter-culture however i can and i've paid my dues. i don't think it's fair to play me off as some lackey who enforces rules he doesn't believe in. i believe in protecting my family and i consider all of you my family.




I do my part
Behind the lines
Swabbing door
handles of cop cars
With D.M.S.O.
Mixed with L.S.D.....

[matte eskuche]

or one guy doesn't punty at all..

[matte eskuche]

you rule mermaid monkey, this place rulz.

[slinger]

damn dood. thanks for the benefit of the doubt..... :(

ignoring the issue and letting it slide wasn't an option available to us. if your suggesting that i should have taken a stand and lost my job i think that you're missing the big picture. by supporting people who are trying to become pipemakers we are doing more to raise up the scene than we would be if we took the chance of letting this become a place where evidence can be collected.

i ain't the man. i've been busted and robbed. i've made thousands of pieces. i support this counter-culture however i can and i've paid my dues. i don't think it's fair to play me off as some lackey who enforces rules he doesn't believe in. i believe in protecting my family and i consider all of you my family.


ok im sorry but what i said wasnt against you personal, but jeez, you just have to admit, which you already did admit, but shit, its just bullshit, and thats all i was saying....

i mean, you cant even talk about some shit

cant TALK about it.

damn.

America.

sorry guys, maybe i just dont belong in these places. these forums.

your right Mermonkey, the people that want me silenced, they win.

and btw, i was told people complained privately about my posting...

and to those haters who dont have the balls to post it up here for everyone to read,,, im gonna succeed twice fold just to spite you.

and to all the people who hit me up private to give me love for risking what people might think of me by speaking my mind and trying to counter all the mis-interpretations we fall victim to, thank you for the love.

[brettodie]

its all about respect... this board has done more for our scene then anything else as far as i can tell. the sharing of ideas thats takin place here over the last decade is nothing short om amazing. i dont remember you being around when there was no rules here and anything went but there was way less info and way more drama bs. we have the rules we have for a reason and alls we ask is you respect them like everyone else.
ive enjoyed reading the conversation going on here. this has become a movment over the years. punk rock though? not sure i agree with that i was there for the 80's punk scene and its not even close imo.
you have a plan and a agenda as a artist and i respect that alot. not everyone wants there name splashed all over. some of us have no desire to be the cool well known artist guy. not all of us veiw art as a way to make a statement. some of us just like to create beautiful forms that are pleasent to look at. last i checked there was no hating going on either,beware of rumors.
some people are gonna disagree with you no matter what you do thats life. i hope you succeed in what you do. ive enjoyed watching your body of work grow and develop.
thanks to everyone thats chimed in on this thread and kept it a generally civil and interesting conversation. were a movement just getting out of our infancy. from here on out its going to be all about change and growth. many of us started this in our mid 20's on dead/phish tour and are in our late 30's married with kids now. as we mature so will our art and ideas. i for one am looking forward to the next decade. peace brett

[Steve Sizelove]

I've been wrestling with this thread trying to decide my feelings. I got into glass through pipes after dropping out of art school, so I feel like I see all sides. There have been many articulate comments. When trying to decide if I had anything to add that hasn't already been said, I keep coming back to this cliche:


Everything changes once you have kids.


I have three children - a five year old son and two year old twin daughters. I didn't get away from pipes to shelter them or protect myself from others judgement. Having kids was a wake up call - piss or get off the pot. My parents taught me to always try my hardest, and I wanted to show that to my kids. For me, that meant more than pipes.

I'm learning more everyday about what it means to be an artist. I've learned that it doesn't mean making a goblet or a vessel or a figure..... RAM said it - intent is the key. That is my single greatest challenge. Because I need to feed my family with my glass, my work suffers for the sake of audience acceptance. I will overcome that hurdle.

To those of you that can articulate your intent through your glass, you have my respect! I don't care what form the object takes.

[Micah Evans]

DISCLAIMER EDIT: its the 5th of july and I'm fighting a huge hangover and responded to a post that happened 3 effing pages ago. seems like the conversation has progressed a little since then and after reading my post, this shit barely makes sense. i'm going to leave it though and go back to bed.



no offense micah, but you sound bitter, and sound like you need to get stoned.

also, id say you havent been hanging out with the same "stoners" as me, cuz you really are bent on a stereotype.

listen, we dont make pipes cuz we are "scared of making serious art" or staying safe in our stoner worlds,,, we make them because

1) it pays the bills
2) they are fun
3) i like to smoke
4) i like appealing to my peers

im working on some things that can cross over to the "maintstream" art world,,,

but really i dont give a shit about doing anything but making work that mocks society as a whole and give it the punk rock fuck you.

other than that, i love supporting pipes and stoners, cuz its who i am, and what i believe in.

before i made pipes i was president of the Hemp legalization club at my college. no joke, i consider this shit activism, and i meet random people all the time that get affected by encounters with "art pipes", and it fuels me to continue...



no really, i totally get it. As far as your motivations go I have never had any question your reasons behind your work. But really as a whole you would consider pipemaking a movement? I see a couple of movers and shakers like you and your brother pushing the "movement" but other than that there isn't much. As a marketing move its fucking brilliant, I would imagine you are going to be one of the most saught out instructors and the most collected pipmakers in the states very soon. Alchemy is marketing specifically to pipmakes it seems so that show was a huge move as far as street cred goes in the community. I would love to see more pushes into galleries and main stream society with shows like the degenerate show, that would be admirable. I love great conversations and debates like this, but trying to convince pipemakers pipemaking is cool and fun is pretty easy!

i really didnt mean to turn this into another clusterfuck art craft debate but in my experiences pipemaker really really struggle to get outside the box of pipemaking. I fucking did. I had to invest enormous amounts of time and money to learn how to do a bunch of other stuff with glass that had little to do with making pipes. But this is where i differ from most pipemakers, i didn't get in this to make pipes. i got into this because glass as a medium is unbelievable. A couple of years ago due to anxiety I pretty much lost the ability to use pipes recreationaly and i tell you what not soon after i didn't use them that magic kind of faded, lol.....which makes me sound bitter:D

i'm not really a bitter person but I am blunt, and my opinions are mine and are usually totally off base:o:

[lava flow]

Thank you Merm for being the voice of reason and having all of our backs legally!

Thank you Slinger for saying what is in the hearts and minds of many of us!

I think that this IS a movement, making beautiful glass that enables our brethren and sistren to defy unjust laws IS activism, and if more of us speak out, Babylon WILL fall and we will be able to actually talk about stuff like this without fear of "the man"....

[Big Jay]

but I have not seen as much innovation or variety in other glass art mediums, especially considering that pipemaking has only been going on for like forty years, as opposed to the thousands that have gone into certain other mediums.
)

you sure about your numbers? I bet if you do any digging at all you'll see pipes have been made just as long. Putting a carb hole isn't a revolution that changes the definition of a pipe. Water pipes and hukas included.


. When trying to decide if I had anything to add that hasn't already been said, I keep coming back to this cliche:


Everything changes once you have kids.

.

steve your absolutely right.



Also when your comparing money... Its in direct relation with the number of clients your product is aimed at. Wine is hip now, but its still a narrower custemor base but since wine is considered "higher class" "appreciated medium" its understandable to believe a fine glass even if non-functional would be geared to a higher paying crowd. Simple business politics price and supply in direct porportion to number of customers x general spending practices and income level. When tobacco was only for the rich fine smoking accessories can be found when it was affordable for the masses any smoking tool was acceptable. IE early industrial america where you see mostly papers and even corncob pipes. No point really just food for thought.

"Archaeological evidence, such as Early Woodland Period smoking pipes, indicate that this spiritual function has been maintained for thousands of years" quote from www.sciencedirect.com

"Pipestone is a soft red clay formation stone found in Pipestone Minnesota which has been used by our tribal people for more than 3,000 years to make effigies, pipes and sometimes other items" quote from www.pipekeepers.org

"Opium use has been documented as far back as 4000 B.C. in ancient Sumer," quote from www.mhhe.com I should clarify that further that information of opium pipes dates mostly to about 500 years ago to present day.

[PyroChixRock]

we dont discuss cannibis normally here for obvious reasons, but this context is different,,,,


.

i wanna just say fuck the internet, and fuck forums, and fuck the rules...

.


This context is no different than any other, and as you said yourself, for OBVIOUS reasons, discussion of illegal activity will not be tolerated. You may be saying fuck the internet, fuck the forums, fuck the rules, but I do think you care about this place to some degree or you would not take the time to be here. Our jobs are to protect our little sanctuary here, and while we don't agree with the government, we will abide and protect it to the best of our ability. So please leave that subject out of the conversation here, for everyones sake.

I enjoyed reading the few posts I was able to read this morning. This is a great conversation and I'm very pleased to see it taking place without any hate. Showing respect for one another even when you disagree is a wonderful thing, and credits us as a community more than some probably realize. So hats off, I look forward to reading more. :blowkiss:

[lava flow]

you sure about your numbers? I bet if you do any digging at all you'll see pipes have been made just as long. Putting a carb hole isn't a revolution that changes the definition of a pipe. Water pipes and hukas included.




"Archaeological evidence, such as Early Woodland Period smoking pipes, indicate that this spiritual function has been maintained for thousands of years" quote from www.sciencedirect.com

"Pipestone is a soft red clay formation stone found in Pipestone Minnesota which has been used by our tribal people for more than 3,000 years to make effigies, pipes and sometimes other items" quote from www.pipekeepers.org

"Opium use has been documented as far back as 4000 B.C. in ancient Sumer," quote from www.mhhe.com I should clarify that further that information of opium pipes dates mostly to about 500 years ago to present day.




well yeah Jay! I'm not ignorant- I guess I should have been more specific and said GLASS pipemaking via lampworking...

[Big Jay]

well yeah Jay! I'm not ignorant- I guess I should have been more specific and said GLASS pipemaking via lampworking...

I know what you meant but the OP said it had nothing to do with glass. There are some business leaders that give seminars that say you cannot call this a revolution this is an evolution pertaining to certain products. And I think thats very fitting for this discussion.
Don't think I was calling you out. But unfortunatly I think this thread changed from an artistic one to a political one and would have been more suited in other forums.
As a message saying this is where the youth is taking glass pipemaking I thought it was amazing. And I find it very interesting in Roger's thread on cups that you see some pipe techniques crossing over.
No disrespect meant on my part. Just scared the loud voice of a few will be consider the opinion of the masses.

[slinger]

I


Everything changes once you have kids.




BANJO just had his fourth kid.

Darby has three kids.

Marcel and Deveron have a kid.

Chaz has a kid.

Drew has a kid.

MNP is about to have a kid.

JP has 2 kids.


yea i want to be a catalyst for more opportunities for the talent pool known as the pipemakers, becasue like Brett said, we are in our thirties now, having kids,,,, we need to get money, and want to do what we love, and making art beyond what is safe and sellable costs money and takes time, not all pipemakers have the dream to transcend this craft and move somewhere higher, but a large group of us do, and im down for that cause....

so like i said, i dont know who hates, who loves, and who doesnt care,,,

but what i do know is that im gonna rally to get attention to this invisible culture, because i want documents out there that explains past the ignorant stereotypes what me and my glass pipemaking family have been doing all these years....

you know Micah is right on, yea im trying to make a career out of this, and in todays capitalist society, you either play the game, or you don't.,, and personally im thinking 6 chess moves ahead, im not gonna stagnate around and bitch about a hard life after being broke and lacking recognition for my whole career or whatever form of success i desire just because i didnt put myself out there enough....

im not gonna wait for society to come around on their terms, im gonna bring it on my terms

its Punk Rock cuz its DIY

make our own magazines, venues, events, trade shows, flame offs, galleries, clothing, films, whatever we dream of....

im trying to shine like the sun man, and yeah that takes some ego, but it also takes some balls,,,,

and in terms of the internet, the censorship just saddens me, and reminds me how much of a clamp the man really does have, even on really good people,,,

all im trying to say is, if the internet is the future, but people cant speak sensibly about real topics, man i dont even have to finish that thought....

[matte eskuche]

i don't want to dilute Slinger's kick-ass-proper, necessary political sentiment with more talk about pipemaking, but this gets to something i was thinking about.

"but what i do know is that im gonna rally to get attention to this invisible culture, because i want documents out there that explains past the ignorant stereotypes what me and my glass pipemaking family have been doing all these years...."

i only made pipes for about 9 months or so in 1998, spoons with fume and some dots and clear cane. shit like that. maybe three or four really shitty bubblers, i was too purist even at that time to not work on an axis, so building a bridge to get the connections for a bubbler melted in nicely wasn't an option. i quickly moved into making little vases that looked exactly like a spoon but didn't have the proper genitalia.

with all this talk, which i haven't delved anywhere near this deeply into for a while, it's been more and more intriguing to me to make few pipes. not for their function, but to explore the function - all this stuff i don't know shit about: force perk, diffuser, double blown (does anyone know what that is?) etc. also, to explore the idea of this tit for tat, back and forth between makers that has propelled the design aspects forward. i would love to have serious instruction from some peeps who know their shit on this stuff.

my thought was this, i would start off in 1998, working the way i did then, off the end of the tube, and the tools i was using then. (Victor single orifice, needle nose pliers, 19mm heavy, 3mm clear rod, silver and gold, and that ratty claw tool with the broken finger) then i would move slowly through the evolution as it went down, making pieces from the eras as described by all the folks involved in it for every minute from then to now and how they remember it and experienced it.

damn, i can feel the excitement of that first donut now! seriously, anyone want to help me design a program i can follow for this? fall of 98'... what's my next step?

[slinger]

flare the tube dude.

[Chris Carlson]

inside out...

[Chris Carlson]

hahah funny, i hadnt read your response..

[EarthTones]

This has been some intense & interesting reading for sure & I doubt this thread needs my 2cents,but I'll add it anyways. I have a lot of respect for SLinger & what he's trying to do because it's something that has always needed to be done for many things & reasons in society at different times. I enjoy all kinds of glass art,but what really got me interested in glass blowing as something 'interesting' was pipes. The work I saw coming locally & from all of the Oregon artists from Shivadas just blew my mind & really turned me on to the diversity of glass art. Now I am a hobbyist glass artist myself & I enjoy making everything from pipes,marbles,pendants,paperweights,sculptures,gob lets & whatever I can,but no matter what I make a good part of what I have adapted style & color usage wise is from pipe artists.I feel that glass is just one of thousands of artistic mediums for expression & I feel all glass creations are on an equal plane no matter what the 'form' or 'function'. I feel it doesn't matter what you make or your style,if you express your self through glass you are a glass artist/blower & like any professionally skilled artist of any kind you deserve to be repected & reconized for your work once you reach a professional level whether you make sculptures,incredibly clean goblets, headdie pipes or whatever. And that is the big problem in our society as far as glass art,if you go into a nice glass gallery you will see many amazing pieces of art,many different styles & forms,hollow & solid,BUT what will you not see? PIPES! It doesn't matter how good the artist is,it's just socially unacceptable to the average minded conservative or non-canna smoking person.Pipe makers have some of the tightest skills,especially when it comes to patterns, colors & shaping,so for their art not to be able to stand along side a Robert Mickelson goblet or whatever else that is considered high-end glass art is a shame & a sign of how underdeveloped the average mindset is. These uptight,psuedo-artsy shop owners & at least half of their customers only see it as 'drug paraphanelia' no matter how intricate,beautiful & artsitic it is & wan't nothing to do with it in their 'art' community. I have seen a very few non-headshop glass galleries that carry a few higher end pipes,but it's rare & it's California,so you definately won't see that most places in the county. I have also talked to many of these gallery folks & they have never heard of Jason lee,Smiley,Eusheen,etc. & say they have no interest in having pipes in their shop. I do however think that only headpieces & high-end pieces incorporating intricate work would have a place in these galleries,a wrap & wrake spoon,or any spoon for that matter probally belongs only in a headshop.
Man I don't know,it's just the way things are & have always been,even though things are starting to come around a little as far as counter-culture acceptance,the truth is people only see what they wan't to see & pipes I guess are associated with drug use by conservative minded and ignorant people,they just can't see past that. Just like they always saw nice inner-city grafitti art as vandalism & skateboarding as loitering & destruction of property.I just hope that Slinger & everyone out there working to bring pipemaking artists into the spotlight succeeds,because all those great artists deserve the same respect & spotlight in the general 'art' community. At the least, for now we have our own subculture & community where this work can be spotlighted & appreciated for how great it really is,so respect to those great artists, everyone here,all the headshops,& glasspipes.org,oh & just anyone out there in the world that is down with using and/or appreciating glass pipe art.

[Meerkat]

Not to be a jerk, but dude use the return key !

[matte eskuche]

"Man I don't know,it's just the way things are & have always been"

totally untrue.

any individual business owner, corporation, non-profit, chain store ceo, etc. decides for themselves how they operate their business. they make the decisions as to what service they provide, who they hire, who their client base is, what product they carry, where they fit into the market, what region of the country they reside in and whether the regulations fit their model. etc. etc.

does it appear to you when you walk in a (i'm finger quoting here) "gallery", of which there are thousands of extremely wide ranging offerings, that the place is run by some overreaching authoritative entity?

your work doesn't "deserve to be respected and recognized" just cause you made something out of whatever medium or you qualify yourself as professional.. one guy might jump for joy over it, one guy thinks it sucks, one guy has appreciation for the difficulty in it's technical offerings, one guy doesn't care cause he's mad that the gallery carrying your work used to be a dry cleaners and they threw away his shirt when gentrification took over his old hood and forced the cleaners to move across the river.

i'm not trying to pick on you specifically, earth tones, i just think that it's painfully obvious that it doesn't matter what the work is, but that it will have it's strengths in the many facets of it's craftsmanship and content and form and decoration and scale and historical precedent.. and then of course, it's up to all the individuals who come across the work and their beauty is in the eye thing. that includes your best buddy, your uncle, the headshop owner, boutiques, galleries, museums, and curators. pipes don't mean shit to most galleries because if an object functions, then they have to either sell it to someone who is going to use it for it's function (headshop) or they have to cater to the collector, who for whatever reason has decided to amass a stash of those specific objects. again that's going to probably be a headshop when pipes are concerned, both for legal reasons and for the developed client base.

goblets tend to be one of those functional objects that is collected by people who put them on a shelf and don't often use them, similar to "high end pieces incorporating intricate work", but conversely collectors don't seek out goblets for their collections at headshops very often because the headshop owner probably hasn't developed their tastes in the artists they carry to reflect what and who a lot of seasoned goblet collectors are looking for.

sorry, just thinking that the argument isn't really whether pipes should fit in everywhere and when they finally will. but something more leaning towards how you find your audience. obviously there is plenty of audience.

[Zed]

Headshops have their place and and Galleries have their place. I don't really understand the facionation that most heads have withgetting pipes into galleries.

Galleries (usually) delal with art, pipes by their nature are a craft item. There, I said it. You may as well argue that handmade ceramic coffee mugs aren't repersented well enough in galleries, it not because all the galleries hate ceramic coffee mug makers, its because for the most part, galleries aren't the place for them.

Pipes are a craft item not because they are easy to make, or for smoking herb or politics but because they are functional items that have common traits and have methods of production that are often repeated.

There is the fact of the intended purpose of pipes. High end galleries are for rich people and lots of rich people are snotty. Lots of Gallery owners are likewise. They don't owe pipemakers anything, this is the real world. You may as well try to change the entire structure of society into a world where all the rich people love all the poor people and there is no class structure and we all puff tuff with our pipes held high and there is no jail cause bad people just need more hugs. That'd be sweet.

[yinzer]

Pipes are a craft item not because they are easy to make, or for smoking herb or politics but because they are functional items that have common traits and have methods of production that are often repeated.


hmmm.
you're right, ive never seen a goblet, pendant, marble, sculpture, bottle stopper, drawer pull, teapot, candy dish, etc., that were functional or had "methods of production that are often repeated". every non-pipe item i have ever seen has been completely original, no technique, and totally non-functional.....

[matte eskuche]

"non-pipe item" what the fuck are we talking about here? you take that vase you made at the torch, you take the flowers out and put a few holes in it and take a safety break. then you put it in your kiln and melt it at 1,500 degrees, now you have cheese plate. and that cheese plate, at $40, will fit in pretty well at any of the thousands of non-"snobby" GALLERIES that cater to artists and collectors of functional or non-functional items of art, craft, and whatever interstitial area thereof.

now, if we want to talk about galleries that deal mainly in conceptual art, the topic would be much more about the shortage of glass in general, which i for one am totally fine with. glass, glass, glass. boring, i too would rather see the goblet that is made out of straws and toothpicks.

now, it's plain to see you aren't arguing that ceramic coffee mugs aren't represented well enough at galleries. both since they are and because if you look back at the last twenty years of craft you'll notice that ceramics used to be the most common item at craft fairs and was similarly common at galleries. since the studio glass movement and it's prolific succession of practitioners, the ceramic coffee mug has had a hard time competing with the exponentially growing number of dudes spinning out floppy bowls dunked in frit and all the mystique surrounding it.

if having this discussion as to the significance of pipemaking is any marker of it, i would say it is "the most". studio glass would probably come up into the conversation more if it's practitioners weren't busy at the bench as we speak since they have to burn their gas all day and night. speaking of which, good times, better get to the torch. thanks Slinger for the meaty topic and all y'all for inciting a riot inside me from time to time.

peace, hope we all get the chance to do this shit in person too.

[slinger]

Headshops have their place and and Galleries have their place. I don't really understand the facionation that most heads have withgetting pipes into galleries.

Galleries (usually) delal with art, pipes by their nature are a craft item. There, I said it. You may as well argue that handmade ceramic coffee mugs aren't repersented well enough in galleries, it not because all the galleries hate ceramic coffee mug makers, its because for the most part, galleries aren't the place for them.

Pipes are a craft item not because they are easy to make, or for smoking herb or politics but because they are functional items that have common traits and have methods of production that are often repeated.

There is the fact of the intended purpose of pipes. High end galleries are for rich people and lots of rich people are snotty. Lots of Gallery owners are likewise. They don't owe pipemakers anything, this is the real world. You may as well try to change the entire structure of society into a world where all the rich people love all the poor people and there is no class structure and we all puff tuff with our pipes held high and there is no jail cause bad people just need more hugs. That'd be sweet.


what do i have to repeat myself 50 times for years and years...

WE

DONT

CARE

IF

PIPES

ARE

CONSIDERED

ART

OR

NOT!

BUT.... if the "gallery" is gonna put a goblet on the shelf, or a paperweight, these things are craft too,

so don't tell me that they dont put pipes in "galleries" b/c they are craft....

there is PLENTY of craft ALREADY in galleries.

id say IMHO, 95% of all glass made is craft, maybe 99%.

so fucking what?


What we ARE trying to do, is get attention to the work and art we make.

thats it.

stop comparing us to goblets and art.

compare us to graffiti, skateboarding and tattoos.

anyway, galleries are just "stores", kinda like museums, its just FUN to try and fuck with the norm,,,

there's a HUGE audience in the world for counter-culture art,,

AGAIN, for the millionth time, look up Banksy, Futura, Doze Green, Stash, Seen, Mike Giant, Sam FLores,

i could care less about Glass magazine or whatever,,,

i want to be in Juxtapoz and Rolling Stone.

BTW,,, i was reading SPIN magazine one or two issues ago, and they have this one small feature called the SPIN 20, it ranks highlights in POP culture moments in the current months, in the JUNE 2008 issue, #5 is L.A. Gallery sells $5,000 BONGS.

yea, in f-n SPIN magazine.

buying a $5,000 goblet isnt news worthy.

You know whos getting more into buying high end pipes?

Rock stars, rappers, and movie stars.

SO go ahead and doubt our scene...

just remember who told you so.

[Ben Burton Glass]

i want to be in Juxtapoz and Rolling Stone.

Juxtapoz. that's what I'm screamin about!!! That mag is tight!!! I think Juxtapoz would be a good vehicle to get our medium (and especially what you're fighting for, Sling) out there to the public.

Aloha!

[lucidvisions]

I'll 2nd Juxtapoz. It would be perfect!

Josh

[Micah Evans]

damn, i'm totally confused.

are you just trying to stir things up Slinger because i'm startin to lose you.

so the whole gallery show thing the Glass Art Society conference that this thread was started for wasn't really important or what you wanted?

I'm all down for the counter culture thing, I love it, live it and pay my bills by it. Also do the art thing, love it live it and pay my bills by it. but i guess i need to go back and read this whole thing again to figure out the point.

[kbinkster]

I think it is interesting that the title of this thread is simply "Glass Pipemaking is the most significant movement in American Glassmaking history." There is no claim that pipemaking is art. Personally, I think that some of it is and some of it isn't. I feel the same way about goblets, too.

Anyway, I believe that pipemaking has had an incredible influence on the glassmaking scene in America. It has indeed changed glassmaking history. If it were not for pipemakers pushing the boundaries and exploring techniques, we would not have many of the tools and products that we do for lampworking now. Pipemakers not only created a demand for new things like color and better torches with their creative needs, but they constituted a viable market for many new products to be brought to the glass world because these guys were being paid for their work and had money to reinvest in their business/art. Pipemakers have worked closely with suppliers and manufacturers to not only bring products to market, but to improve upon them.

And you know what? The pipemakers have been the least political group to work with. They don't have the attitude of "Give me something for free (just because of who I am) and you will get my support." No, pipemakers support only what they know works for them and only because it works for them. I respect that, a lot.

As for the creativity of pipemaking, a lot of people who make pipes are not classically trained glassworkers. They do not have the voices in their heads telling them that they need to do things this way and not that way, because that is how it has been done for generations. Many are mostly self-taught and rely on trial and error and self exploration. They may get schooled on the basics while working in a prodo shop, but then rely on themselves to take it further until they maybe hook up with someone else or take a class to get to the next level. While that may not be the most efficient way of getting things done, it lends itself to creativity and when these guys get ahold of a new technique, some really run with it and take it to places unimagined before. Unleashing this creativity has caused more growth in glass than anything else I can think of.

Within the pipemaking movement, there have naturally been superstars who have risen up through the ranks - guys like Marcel Braun and Jason Lee, just to name a couple. These are the new heros in glass. I shook hands with Bob Snodgrass at GAS and felt like I was touching living history. I do not make or use pipes, but I certainly appreciate the impact that man has had on glass. He deserves respect.

There are pipemakers out there who have no idea who the Italians are or who Roger Parramore is - and why should they? It's not that the traditional glass artists are not worthy of respect for their contributions to glass art, it's a matter of relevance. Roger Parramore's goblet skills are not responsible for these guys getting into glass. Afterall, unless you are already into glass or are a goblet afficianado, what are the odds of seeing Roger's work and being inspired to get into it yourself? No offense, Roger. Your work really is beautiful and is inspiring, but I am talking about the huge number of people getting involved in glass through pipemaking. People who may have always been creative and artistic, but with no formal art training or aspirations of making art for a living. I would say that the headpiece their buddy had on his shelf actually made by someone like a friend, or a friend of a friend, or just "some guy that can blow glass" had more of an impact on these guys getting into glass than anything else. That and the little glass animals made at Disney or in the local mall. It's the everyday guy with some vision and talent that looks at these forms and thinks to himself, "I can do that and I think I can make it worth my while" that makes up a large portion of glassworkers out there right now.

It is usually after the pipemaker has already been working in glass that he learns about people like Roger Parramore, Paul Stankard, Robin Mickelson, Milon Townsend, and others. It is usually then that the pipemaker respects these artists, because at this point, he knows what glass entails and can better appreciate the accomplishments of these artists.

One of the biggest obstacles for pipemakers getting their heady pieces and non-pipe art into the public view has been the politics of the galleries. But, fortunately, new venues are popping up. Internet photo galleries have brought this art into the homes of thousands and thousands of people who may never walk into a brick and mortar gallery or museum. Even headshops are now exhibiting and carrying the non-pipe work of the pipemakers whose pipes they sell. The politics of the traditional galleries cannot keep this art suppressed. The artists are creative and will just seek other means to get their work out there and these other means are reaching far more people than the traditional galleries. It's funny - by trying to suppress it, the opposing powers have actually made it grow.

ETA: I wanted to clarify something so that it doesn't get misunderstood. When I wrote:

It is usually after the pipemaker has already been working in glass that he learns about people like Roger Parramore, Paul Stankard, Robin Mickelson, Milon Townsend, and others. It is usually then that the pipemaker respects these artists, because at this point, he knows what glass entails and can better appreciate the accomplishments of these artists.

I did not mean to imply that one had to be a glassworker to understand or appreciate the work. Much of the work done by these men stands on it's own and would be appreciable art regardless of the medium. I'm just trying to say that I believe a lot of glassworkers were not exposed to it until after they became glassworkers and with their own experience in the medium of glass, can really appreciate it.

Oh, and one more thing... I know that there are pipemakers out there who did start out with an art background. But, I don't think that accounts for the majority of pipemakers out there. It may account for the majority of those who take their pipe art and push it way beyond pipes. I don't know, I would have to ask.

[slinger]

damn, i'm totally confused.

are you just trying to stir things up Slinger because i'm startin to lose you.

so the whole gallery show thing the Glass Art Society conference that this thread was started for wasn't really important or what you wanted?

I'm all down for the counter culture thing, I love it, live it and pay my bills by it. Also do the art thing, love it live it and pay my bills by it. but i guess i need to go back and read this whole thing again to figure out the point.

Well really, i started this thread to let everyone coming to Portland that not only was there the opening on Friday for our show, but Susan from GA called me and asked if i could please announce on the forums that there was ALSO a happy hour, meet the artists thing on thursday...

now, i coulda just posted the title to be simply "Happy Hour for Degenerate Art show",,, BUT i figured, that it would be more "fun" to post a title a little more provocative to get everyone's attention...

so, is "glass pipemaking the most significant movement in American glassmaking histrory?"

well id say that its all about what one defines as "significant" and then again, WHO it might be significant too....

and there lies the discussion...

which is what i hoped for, a discussion...

so Micah, i can't explain all the multi-layers to my philosophy and thinking behind art, society, captitalism, and etc all online in these lil boxes, so one day we will sit down and just kick it old fashioned style in person, not sure where i lost youm but lemme tell you, i LOVE to talk about this shit in person,,,

you are friends with SALT, right?

talk to him about style wars, better yet watch the flick and watch the second DVD that came out in 2002.... then get back at me.

[slinger]

oh and nice post KBinkster!!!

you are so right on!

incredibly refreshing to read, its nice when people actually "get it"...

[slinger]

so the whole gallery show thing the Glass Art Society conference that this thread was started for wasn't really important or what you wanted?



no it was exactly what i wanted actually.

i was so proud and elated to be able to show the work of me and other talented pipemakers in a nice venue during a gathering of international glass artists.

it was fucking awesome.

some of us are already buzzing about corning 2009 :blowkiss:

[Micah Evans]

Sweet, will do Slinger.

I'm not sure where I lost ya either, lol. sometimes I get lost easily. And damn right we need to sit down and talk about this in person, you get me talking about this shit and i never want to stop. Typing is my downfall, i'm really freakin slow so i usually give up half way through my posts.

[yinzer]

"non-pipe item" what the fuck are we talking about here? you take that vase you made at the torch, you take the flowers out and put a few holes in it and take a safety break. then you put it in your kiln and melt it at 1,500 degrees, now you have cheese plate. and that cheese plate, at $40, will fit in pretty well at any of the thousands of non-"snobby" GALLERIES that cater to artists and collectors of functional or non-functional items of art, craft, and whatever interstitial area thereof.


i was simply replying to the post that i quoted, which implied that pipes are a craft because they are "functional items that have common traits and have methods of production that are often repeated". but everything else, according to the implications of that post, would be art. so that production line of goblets or pendants that jo schmoe makes that all look the same are art buck dick licks pipes are craft because they use some of the same technique as other pipes.

i say its mostly craft regardless of the product. art can, however, be a factor as well.

therefore, i have no idea where your coming from with this response...and im pretty good at getting the point 99% of the time.





p.s. i can think of a few people in pittsburgh who make pipes, so they do exist. (your earlier post said there werent any pipe makers in pittsburgh)

[Zed]

i was simply replying to the post that i quoted, which implied that pipes are a craft because they are "functional items that have common traits and have methods of production that are often repeated". but everything else, according to the implications of that post, would be art. so that production line of goblets or pendants that jo schmoe makes that all look the same are art buck dick licks pipes are craft because they use some of the same technique as other pipes.

Maybe I wasn't specific enough, but I also consider those non pipe items to be production as well. A lot of what is in galleries are also production. If you are a glass artist making vases for a gallery, and they are all more or less the same and don't invoke a emotional response or have a conceptional message I would consider these production, even though the target market is a art gallery.

I agree with a lot of what has been posted before. The bar is set pretty high for artists working within the gallery system. Demanding the inclusion of pipes just because they're pipes is really just demanding that the bar be lowered to suit your goals.

Within the pipe world, technique is king. Rather then demanding attention for your technical accomplishments maybe pipers should work on content. It may be possible for a pipe to say something other then "lets smoke!" but I doubt it.

If you really want to recognized as a artist, rather then fighting against the system why don't you work within the system and make non pipe glass work? Instead of making the greatest pipe ever and demanding recognition, make a non pipe piece of glass art and demand recogntion for that. Now your playing on the same field as all the other glass artists in the business and will be judged solely on your accomplishments not on the politics of whether glass pipes are a valid artistic statement or not.

I think demanding attention for pipes and then hating the system when they aren't accepted is a self fulfilling prophecy. I also don't think they will ever get much respect from mainstream society until sometime after decriminalization. Why would a gallery that banks on its reputation want to carry work that is quasi-legal, can't be shipped to certain places, could be confiscated or cause legal trouble ect... I think the change you seek would have to come from society first not just gallery owners. Really they are just operating within the accepted norms and laws of society.

Here's a question for you: What if the product I was demanding respect for was designed to be used for harder drugs? What would your response be if I came on here demanding respect for my hand blown artistic coke straws or meth pipes? The same level of technical proficiency could be employed in these products, by your arguement should gallery owners also display these works?

[flipside]

I have been saying that for years now. since i started in 95 it has taken off a thousand times over, by artist making pipes. We have pushed the limit of what can be done harder than any other group of people has. We know and that is all that really maters.

[slinger]

Demanding the inclusion of pipes just because they're pipes is really just demanding that the bar be lowered to suit your goals.

no one ever demanded pipes be accepted "just b/c they're pipes"....

but you contradict your self, you say that goblets and vessels arent art either, yet they are in places that are called "galleries"

so i ever said in response to that is level the playing field, if the galleries accept "craft", then WHY NOT pipes as well.


Within the pipe world, technique is king. Rather then demanding attention for your technical accomplishments maybe pipers should work on content. It may be possible for a pipe to say something other then "lets smoke!" but I doubt it.

again, its like graffiti, yes 95% is prodo, craft whatever you want to call it, but there is that other 5%...... look at my gallery www.glasspipes.org/slinger , there is plenty of content in my work over the last 2 years.


If you really want to recognized as a artist, rather then fighting against the system why don't you work within the system and make non pipe glass work?

First off i do make non pipe stuff,,,

second have you studied art history?

rebeling against the system is what made DuChamp, Warhol, and Banksy some of the most significant artists ever,,,

since WHEN did "good" art ever confrm to the norm?

The impressionists were radical when they came about.

The Sex Pistols changed the face of music.

And then COOL DJ HERC did it again in the S Bronx


Instead of making the greatest pipe ever and demanding recognition, make a non pipe piece of glass art and demand recogntion for that. Now your playing on the same field as all the other glass artists in the business and will be judged solely on your accomplishments not on the politics of whether glass pipes are a valid artistic statement or not.

thats a dumbass statement,

the playing field has ALWAYS been level, you can make whatever you want and i can make whatever i want. period.

[slinger]

I think demanding attention for pipes and then hating the system when they aren't accepted is a self fulfilling prophecy. I also don't think they will ever get much respect from mainstream society until sometime after decriminalization. Why would a gallery that banks on its reputation want to carry work that is quasi-legal, can't be shipped to certain places, could be confiscated or cause legal trouble ect... I think the change you seek would have to come from society first not just gallery owners. Really they are just operating within the accepted norms and laws of society.


another backwards statement... i am helping bring change within society through my art, art does that sometimes, again, you must have slept thru art history, but much art created is politically/socially motivated, even if unconscious ala graffiti, ala pipemaking..


Here's a question for you: What if the product I was demanding respect for was designed to be used for harder drugs? What would your response be if I came on here demanding respect for my hand blown artistic coke straws or meth pipes? The same level of technical proficiency could be employed in these products, by your arguement should gallery owners also display these works?

i think that would be a bold statement, and honestly i bet youd get alot further in your career attempting something half as risque as that as opposed to whatevcer type vases you blow everyday.

[slinger]

Maybe I wasn't specific enough, but I also consider those non pipe items to be production as well. A lot of what is in galleries are also production. If you are a glass artist making vases for a gallery, and they are all more or less the same and don't invoke a emotional response or have a conceptional message I would consider these production, even though the target market is a art gallery.

I agree with a lot of what has been posted before. The bar is set pretty high for artists working within the gallery system. Demanding the inclusion of pipes just because they're pipes is really just demanding that the bar be lowered to suit your goals.

Within the pipe world, technique is king. Rather then demanding attention for your technical accomplishments maybe pipers should work on content. It may be possible for a pipe to say something other then "lets smoke!" but I doubt it.

If you really want to recognized as a artist, rather then fighting against the system why don't you work within the system and make non pipe glass work? Instead of making the greatest pipe ever and demanding recognition, make a non pipe piece of glass art and demand recogntion for that. Now your playing on the same field as all the other glass artists in the business and will be judged solely on your accomplishments not on the politics of whether glass pipes are a valid artistic statement or not.

I think demanding attention for pipes and then hating the system when they aren't accepted is a self fulfilling prophecy. I also don't think they will ever get much respect from mainstream society until sometime after decriminalization. Why would a gallery that banks on its reputation want to carry work that is quasi-legal, can't be shipped to certain places, could be confiscated or cause legal trouble ect... I think the change you seek would have to come from society first not just gallery owners. Really they are just operating within the accepted norms and laws of society.

Here's a question for you: What if the product I was demanding respect for was designed to be used for harder drugs? What would your response be if I came on here demanding respect for my hand blown artistic coke straws or meth pipes? The same level of technical proficiency could be employed in these products, by your arguement should gallery owners also display these works?

my question to you is,

why not worry more about what YOU make than what others are doing....

does it bother you that we love what we do and demand a voice?

maybe it bothers you that we are actually getting a voice?

but ill tell you something, theres ALOT more than meets the eyes from pipemakers,,,

you dont get that people like me, pakoh, JAG, SNIC, CLINTON, tons of us have other stuff going on that is NOT a pipe,,, were not JUST pipemakers,,, but it is a title im not shedding,,,

just like when graffiti artists and street artists make the move to the gallery, they dont just go "tag" the gallery and run away LOL,,, they change their approach to creating and concept once offered those opportunities.


you'll see.

[lava flow]

well I just found out that apparently AGI is a "non-pipe event" :crazy::crazy::crazy:

[Micah Evans]

well I just found out that apparently AGI is a "non-pipe event" :crazy::crazy::crazy:

And?

[Mr. Wonka]

well I just found out that apparently AGI is a "non-pipe event" :crazy::crazy::crazy:


AGI is a non pipe event not because I’m a hater of the scene, but because there are very strict laws in Pennsylvania regarding what is considered “drug paraphernalia”. The last thing I want to do is spend my time in court fighting the system, and / or facing the risk of losing everything I have.

Best wishes to all of you who want to fight the man, but it’s not for me… I refuse to be a martyr and end up homeless, broke, or spend the next “x” amount of years getting ass raped in prison for ANY cause.

Just for the record: our first event was called “Pipestock”, and it was just what the name implied… a bunch of pipe makers (myself included) rockin’ the torches, and kicking out some awesome pieces with a bunch of cool cats.

If pipes (or what they are used for) become legal on a state or federal level, I’ll open up this facility and host a convention of the likes you have never seen… you have my word on that.

**Just for the record: although I haven’t kept any hard statistics on AGI, it would be safe to assume that 90% of the pipe makers that attend tell me that they want to get away from making pipes. Even Slinger (post #137) said, “I can’t WAIT ‘til I never have to make another pipe to pay the rent.”

My name is Tom Doner, and I approve this message : )

P.S.- Thanks Micah!

[Zed]

Dude, relax. You said you started this thread for some debate, I can go line by line with you too if thats how you want to play it. I don't really see that you refuted any of my arguments, just repeated yourself about graff writers (a shaky comparison with pipers at best IMO) and how everyone should come over to your side of the argument because you think pipemaking is the next Dada or something.

I'm presenting what I think is a REAL argument (real as in this is the real world), and my personal opinion that I've thought alot about. You don't have to agree with me, but I'm showing you respect.

I have no hate for pipemaking in fact I have alot of love for it, as well as respect for the technical accomplishments happening. I just don't think that realistically your ever going to have galleries that show fine art along side pipes, at least not the level of gallery that I think your talking about. The product is different, the clientèle is different, the price point is different. Head shops and galleries exist independently right now for a good reason.

As far as my art history, I'm finishing up my senior year at CU with a degree in studio arts and considering a minor in art history as I have already completed most of it. I think I get your point that you think pipe making is going to be the next big movement is art because herb smoking and pipe making is so cutting edge and rebellious, I think thats delusions of grandeur.

Go for it dude, keep working to get pipes into Habitat gallery or wherever you think they should be. Good luck, if things unfold the way you want them and 10 years from now dreadlock kids will be hanging out in upscale galleries blazing the chalice with rich republicans then I guess I will have seen it all.

I would like a real answer about the artistic coke straw/meth pipe question. I used those because I have been asked to make them both more then once, and following your logic don't they deserve representation too? Could not a coke straw be as artistic as a pipe?

[slinger]

As far as my art history, I'm finishing up my senior year at CU with a degree in studio arts and considering a minor in art history as I have already completed most of it. I think I get your point that you think pipe making is going to be the next big movement is art because herb smoking and pipe making is so cutting edge and rebellious, I think thats delusions of grandeur.

im totally relaxed, your posts just have a condescending tone, and are not well thought out.

i'm not saying pipemaking is the next big art movement,, but it is the biggest "thing" that lampworked boro has ever seen.

see you are missing my points.

why do you think that my art will even be pipes, let alone glass.

the work stuff im working on now involves, glass, lighting, projected image, film paint, found objects, smoke machines...

you dont even know who you are addressing, you just making random, ignorant general statements.

dude i dont have dreadlocks and im not trying to form a Dead lot at Habatat.

i think your kind of moronic for even thinking that or thinking thats what im saying,,, and either way its fucking condescending.



Go for it dude, keep working to get pipes into Habitat gallery or wherever you think they should be. Good luck, if things unfold the way you want them and 10 years from now dreadlock kids will be hanging out in upscale galleries blazing the chalice with rich republicans then I guess I will have seen it all.

Thanx i will keep working to do whatever the fuck i want however the fuck i want. Your post is so condescending i dont know why i bother replying to it...


I would like a real answer about the artistic coke straw/meth pipe question. I used those because I have been asked to make them both more then once, and following your logic don't they deserve representation too? Could not a coke straw be as artistic as a pipe?

i gave you my real answer, if your talking about making some for coke head aquaintances of yours, then do what you need to do to make money,,, if you make some you think are art and want to display them, then go ahead, i have the same answer i did the first time for you, if you actually take RISKS in your work, you will get noticed, so why not make them if thats what you want to do.... im planning lots of art pieces about all sorts of drug consumption.... i'd day drugs is right up there with sex, death and religion as one of the best and most relative subject matters for artistic exploration.

Let me ask you, what Art do you actually LIKE?

Do you know who Damien Hirst is at least??

are YOU a conservative Republican, cuz you come off like one?



You know your responses are so typical and predictable, shit anytime anyone wants to try and shine theres always some haters trying to tell them why they cant and shouldnt,,,,,

i dare you to go line for line with me and tell my how i DIDNT refute your points, or really lack of points....

[matte eskuche]

ahh, kudos to well spoken statements Zed. it does wonders for one's position..

i had to laugh, it just rang a bell when Zed said "keep working to get pipes into Habatat Gallery" in fact , i have a glass pipe in Habatat Gallery as we speak. it's in the piece "Dude, mom's gonna be pissed" which is my only post on glasspipes.org.

can we all go home now?

[slinger]

**Just for the record: although I haven’t kept any hard statistics on AGI, it would be safe to assume that 90% of the pipe makers that attend tell me that they want to get away from making pipes. Even Slinger (post #137) said, “I can’t WAIT ‘til I never have to make another pipe to pay the rent.”

My name is Tom Doner, and I approve this message : )

P.S.- Thanks Micah!

yeah well you quote me out of context,,,

i cant wait til i dont have to do ANYTHING in particular to pay my rent, pipes or otherwise...

but i NEVER want to "get away from them"

first off i smoke them everyday, im always trying to get to one....

second i will always make them, yes yes, even after im rich and famous like you all are predicting, i will still make one once in awhile, maybe even out of other materials and with more artsy intentions, who knows....

thirdly i intend pipes to be the springboard for my art career,,, to understand that see STYLE WARS the movie...

[matte eskuche]

wait for it.

[slinger]

the biggest thing lampworked boro has ever seen is what drove the need for that coefficient of glass. scientific apparatus.

ok lemme rephrase it to make everyone happy...

"glass pipe-making is the LAMEST movement in the history of American Glassmaking."

there you go Matt and Zed.

[Micah Evans]

ahh, kudos to well spoken statements. it does wonders for one's position..

i had to laugh, it just rang a bell when Zed said "keep working to get pipes into Habatat Gallery" in fact , i have a glass pipe in Habatat Gallery as we speak. it's in the piece "Dude, mom's gonna be pissed" which is my only post on glasspipes.org.

can we all go home now?


And Billy Morris had one in there years ago, nothing to crazy bout a pipe in a gallery. Glad Habatat picked you up Matt, congrats!

now I'm going home.

[matte eskuche]

hey Slinger, the biggest "thing" that lampworked boro has ever seen was so big it actually created the need to develop for the first time a glass with a specific coefficient of 33. how about that? a whole catagory of object created out of the borosilicate glass that was developed specifically for it, scientific apparatus.

[slinger]

ahh, kudos to well spoken statements Zed. it does wonders for one's position..

i had to laugh, it just rang a bell when Zed said "keep working to get pipes into Habatat Gallery" in fact , i have a glass pipe in Habatat Gallery as we speak. it's in the piece "Dude, mom's gonna be pissed" which is my only post on glasspipes.org.

can we all go home now?


i love that piece!

[matte eskuche]

don't give up so easy Slinger, you've got a point.

no, seriously. this post has given me tons of information on the evolution and it's participants. i appreciate the knowledge boys and girls.

here's "dude, mom's gonna be pissed"

[slinger]

hey Slinger, the biggest "thing" that lampworked boro has ever seen was so big it actually created the need to develop for the first time a glass with a specific coefficient of 33. how about that? a whole catagory of object created out of the borosilicate glass that was developed specifically for it, scientific apparatus.


ok, can you just work the semantics out in your head of what im trying to say. cuz i think real recognizes real and your looking real familiar right now.

you know i think alot about glass pipes and i see it as a "social phenomenom"... thats probably even more applicable then the terms "movement" although i like the term "movement", it has that "forward" feeling.


gee, what an amazing phenomenom.

here, from the heart, the reason why i start these threads, why im making a documentary film, why i get up on my soap box about this,,, is that myself and many others have dedicated many years, myself 11 years, to doing this pipe-making thing, and i just dont want to wash it under the bridge as i mature into the next phase of my life,,, i want it to be recognized, not for anything more or less than what it is,,, but like i say constantly, its an invisible culture, and so i want it to have a little light shed on it, so anyone that cares to find out more has the opportunity.

its not an ego thing, im not trying to get Phish to get back togehter and play at Heller Gallery,

but if you miss my comparisons to graffiti, skateboarding, punk rock, hip hop, tattoo art then you either dont know about any of those cultures either, or you just dont have the brain power to think metaphorically.

[slinger]

man i gotta give it up to Zed,

really, its easy to find people who just think what i do is actually cool, i love people who just tell me i cant do it this way or that...

you sound like my father, who was not very happy that i was a pipemaker...

but now, i smile and tell my Dad that im going to Japan to teach pipemaking, or that im going to Portland for a Gallery, or shit, that i paid my rent mkaing pipes, and you know what, even my ol' dad is coming around....

[lava flow]

AGI is a non pipe event not because I’m a hater of the scene, but because there are very strict laws in Pennsylvania regarding what is considered “drug paraphernalia”. The last thing I want to do is spend my time in court fighting the system, and / or facing the risk of losing everything I have.

Best wishes to all of you who want to fight the man, but it’s not for me… I refuse to be a martyr and end up homeless, broke, or spend the next “x” amount of years getting ass raped in prison for ANY cause.

Just for the record: our first event was called “Pipestock”, and it was just what the name implied… a bunch of pipe makers (myself included) rockin’ the torches, and kicking out some awesome pieces with a bunch of cool cats.

If pipes (or what they are used for) become legal on a state or federal level, I’ll open up this facility and host a convention of the likes you have never seen… you have my word on that.

**Just for the record: although I haven’t kept any hard statistics on AGI, it would be safe to assume that 90% of the pipe makers that attend tell me that they want to get away from making pipes. Even Slinger (post #137) said, “I can’t WAIT ‘til I never have to make another pipe to pay the rent.”

My name is Tom Doner, and I approve this message : )

P.S.- Thanks Micah!

Hey Tom, didn't mean to disrespect you or the event- this year will be my first, and I can't wait!

The only other shows like this that i have attended were lewis wilson's old bead shows in Albuquerque before they moved to Tuscon. Those shows were certainly "non-pipe events" :cane:

I guess I had just gotten my hopes up a little about watching some of the people in this forum whose work I admire so much do their thing... not that I don't admire the other mediums, I guess pipes just excite me more because they are the primary focus of my own studio.

don't get me wrong, I'm still super stoked for Roger's vessel demo, I've never made a goblet before...

to actually "not be allowed" to make a pipe for a week will be a wonderful challenge for me, but I would never say that I want to "get away" from pipes- hell I'm holding one right now :chilling:

conversely, "to not be allowed" is a phrase I rarely associate with lampworking, or art in general for that matter. However, I completely, COMPLETELY dig where you are coming from Tom and I support your efforts 100%. I have no doubt that this event will blow my mind, and I apologize if anything I said was taken in offense.


Let the debate continue! Any point I want to make Slinger has made, but like, cooler...

[Meerkat]

If you really want to recognized as a artist, rather then fighting against the system why don't you work within the system

I can't believe your saying that, art has always been about challenging the system and culture. Your avatar is a Robert Crumb character, he was extremely outside the mainstream of what was accepted comic book art or even what people should be allowed to read since his stuff dealt with drugs, sex and politics.

Safe art is boring....

And as Einstein said "You can't have progress without deviation from the norm"

and that quote is the truest rule you will ever find IMO.

[Zed]

You know actually dude, I have dreads down to my ass and sold my first pipe on GD tour. I've been over it for a while though, making pipes now is too boring for me. The repetitive nature of them (all pipes have some common steps, push bowl, attach stem ect.) just doesn't do it for me anymore. I think I am probably far away who your dad is.

I don't hate pipes, but I just don't think galleries are the place for them typically. I also think your average gallery would refuse to cater to your average head, selling paraphernalia just isn't what galleries are in it for. I also don't think most heads have the kind of disposable income that gallery clientele have. This may not be fair or right in your mind, but life isn't fair.

Also, by trying to get galleries to accept pipes, you are also trying to get them to accept pipe culture and pipe purchasers. This means to a great extent that you would be trying to turn Habitat into Dead lot. Dread lock kids as well as people with mulitple piercings and tatoos, punks and bikers ect. are alot of who makes up pipe culture. Would you shut them out and prefer that only the pipe makers that look like joe everybody be included? How about the customers of these galleries that look like that? I think you might reply "well, anyone who can afford the work should be able to buy them there!" well fine, but I think that most heads have little interest in the artwork, but want a blinging pipe to use for its intended purpose. Can you invision a straight arrow gallery owner explaining the difference between a bubbler and a forced perc to a dreadlock customer in his gallery that mainly sells $5,000+ unique pieces of art?

edit>

I'm not trying to rile you up, just stating my views as plainly as possible. If you see it as condescending then so be it.

edit>

I think the answer lies in using the techniques pioneered by pipers in nonh functional art pieces. Why does it have to be a pipe?

I think lampwork and boros are gaining alot of respect outside of pipes right now. On the cover of the latest issue of Glass mag is a 5 ft. tall pyrex chair made by Brent Kee Young using the clear lattice work method. This piece blows my mind and I think its more technically challenging then any pipe I've ever seen, and this is pyrex lampwork.

I understand why you think my posts might come off as being "hatertastic" but this is my honest opinions put together in my 13 years of lampworking. I've changed alot in that time, and I embrace the changes instead of fighting against them. As i've gotten older I've cared less and less about pipes, I still appreciate them because I know the work and skill levels involved but I don't think everyone should love them.

I did my best to keep the tone of this post humble, I hope you respect my opinions.

[lava flow]

no disrespect to dreads, but anyone can grow their hair out... not necessarily the best representation of "being down". I've met plenty of A-holes and crazy people in my day, of all hair styles, dreadlocks included.

and I don't think that's what meerkat was talking about anyway...

besides, since when do dreads talk about "working within the system?"

[Zed]

The fact that we can't even talk about this topic honestly without being censored on a board run by pipe makers speaks volumes about the hurdles you face in getting galleries to accept pipes. I'm not complaining about the edit (although I thought I was within the TOS, I never used the "m" word or any of its variants AFAIK) but if we can't even talk about it on the internet, what are the chances that its going to get much respect mainstream.

@lava flow: I was responding to Slinger, not Merrkat, who I feel took my comments out of context. I'll clarify what I meant by the text he quoted later.

[slinger]

really zed, i dont see you making any points at all, i just see you rambling on and not even reading what i write...

I DONT CARE ABOUT HABATAT or any other particular gallery.

Im NOT forcing anyone to do anything.

I just do MY thing, and it is what it is.

You know the Mark Woolley gallery is a real gallery right?

They dont even normally show glass, but usually paintings.

AND we shared the space with the De La Torre borthers exhibit.

SO Dude just stop barking at me, i dont care if you had dreads or what your deal is,,,, my shit was just in a fucking gallery, so stop telling me that its gonna be so hard for me and blah blah blah when im already there. Its already happening.


And you know what, if nothing i ever make, pipe or not, ends up in a gallery, i could really give a shit,,, i just stay true to me and who i am and do whatever i want...

i dont mark getting into Habatat as the pinnacle of success, shit thats just another store that sells objects.

Real art isnt even sold anyway, artists just create objects to sell out of economic necessity,,, but i bet you havent learned that idea yet as an art history minor..

so make your point, or just stop repeating yourself, because your opinion doesnt even have much critical thinking or logic in it for me to respond to.

[slinger]

telling me to not make pipes is like telling the graffiti artists of the 70's and 80's to stop painting trains and to do it on canvas...

the galleries wouldnt have given a SHIT about graffiti art and culture if it was kids writing on canvas's.... it was the TRAINS that made there work relevant and got then the attention of the galleries...

and once these "kids" had their attention they were given freedom and opportunities for expression beyond writing their names on trains...

BUT if it didnt start with the TRAINS, with the illegal appropriation of space, with VANDALISM,,, the chain of events would not have occured..

yes VANDALISM led to an art movement

and your actually trying to tell me that smoking cant do that too?

pfffffft.

[matte eskuche]

off topic a bit, but when i saw "galleries accepting pipes" (in Zed's last post) i'm again astounded by the ignorance of considering "gallery" to mean a standardized, tunnel vision, they all are the same type of institution.

they all are run by way different people with way different ideas of what craft, art, wine, and advertising are.

i'm reminded of some advice that has been given to me and subsequently repeated many times by gallerists and artists who've been around the block doing this for many years.

when you look around at the galleries in your town or the galleries in the towns you want your work in, it's not about getting galleries to accept any certain medium or content such as pipes. it is completely about the relationship you build with the gallery. approach a gallery with the idea of them carrying your work if you like the work they have in their space, if you think your work would fit in there, or if you like the conversation you are having with them. do they seem to respect their artisrts by knowing about their work and communicating to you that they understand the artists intent and content within the work?

i've never understood the down the nose snub that a lot of gallery people give to people walking in off the street, but i would get over it, somehow it's just part of the behaviour in a lot of galleries, and doesn't tend to stick around when you are helping them to pay their rent with your sales.

no "gallery" needs to accept anybody's individual work, or the work of a movement for any reason other than they like it and feel they have an audience for it or are willing to educate an audience about it. musuems will though, and that will be seen as pipemaking matures over the next bunch of years.

the galleries will come to you if you promote yourself enough, or go to the ones you think are appropriate for you. i'm repeating myself, but it seems like so many are missing the point of how the gallery is there to serve the artist.

[slinger]

off topic a bit, but when i saw "galleries accepting pipes" i'm again astounded by the ignorance of considering "gallery" to mean a standardized, tunnel vision, they all are the same type of institution.

they all are run by way different people with way different ideas of what craft, art, wine, and advertising are.

i'm reminded of some advice that has been given to me and subsequently repeated many times by gallerists and artists who've been around the block doing this for many years.

when you look around at the galleries in your town or the galleries in the towns you want your work in, it's not about getting galleries to accept any certain medium or content such as pipes. it is completely about the relationship you build with the gallery. approach a gallery with the idea of them carrying your work if you like the work they have in their space, or if you like the conversation you are having with them. do they seem to respect their artisrts by knowing about their work and communicating to you that they understand the artists intent and content within the work?

i've never understood the down the nose snub that a lot of gallery people give to people walking in off the street, but i would get over it, somehow it's just part of the behaviour in a lot of galleries, and doesn't tend to stick around when you are helping them to pay their rent with your sales.

no "gallery" needs to accept anybody's individual work, or the work of a movement for any reason other than they like it and feel they have an audience for it or are willing to educate an audience about it. musuems will though, and that will be seen as pipemaking matures over the next bunch of years.

the galleries will come to you if you promote yourself enough, or go to the ones you think are appropriate for you. i'm repeating myself, but it seems like so many are missing the point of how the gallery is there to serve the artist.

very good point matt, its not like all "galleries" have the same mentality,,

bottomline is if there is money to be made, SOMEONE is gonna step up to cash in, and THAT'S the bottomline, whether its Art, pipes, widgets, or whatever.

The NAME sells. make a name for yourself and then they will buy ANYTHING that the NAME is on.

[matte eskuche]

so true,

Dali signing blank canvases,

Duchamp expecting people to accept a bottle rack from Target as his work just from the addition of his signature.

[matte eskuche]

wait, i meant Wal-Mart. bottle rack from Wal-Mart.

[slinger]

didnt Dali try to give the Queen of England a jar with his own feces in it, AND demand her to pay him like $5,000 for it saying "some day even my shit will be priceless" or something like that lol

[3 rip min]

making pipes is a life style!

[lucidvisions]

Slinger, Thanks for my big belly laugh of the day, if that's true, hell even if it isn't, I don't care, that's funny. I think that's my new drive. Just to be able to sell some of my shit with a my signature for 5k. At the rate I'm usually at I can make at least 10k a day. Loven it!

Josh

[Snurf]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1034538/Graffiti-artist-Banksy-unmasked---public-schoolboy-middle-class-suburbia.html


link to an article on Banksy, the dailymail.uk has discovered his identity.

[The Lorax]

i really love this thread... sling, you are such an inspiration with your dedication to your beliefs and art. never stop the fight.

[Travis Tyler]

Who cares? When a pipe or piece of glass art cures cancer, poverty, hunger, stops a war etc. then maybe a thread like this will be valid. Until then, just do what you do and try to enjoy doing it. Just don't be delusional about it, pipes don't matter, goblets don't matter, paperweights don't matter, marbles don't matter. In fact, most art really doesn't matter. It's just nice to look at or think about. Let me clarify. I'm not saying you, as a human being, don't matter. I'm saying that what we make doesn't matter when it comes to really important issues. We are very lucky to be able to make a living playing with glass like we do, but to put any more stock into it than that is being pompous no matter what side you're on.
This is my opinion and is not meant to offend anyone. Most of the discussion in this thread seems to be people being upset or offended by HOW someone said something rather than reflecting on the content of WHAT was said. I hope that I have shared my opinion in a way that's easy to digest. I have respect for you all as brothers and sisters on this planet. May we all find what we're looking for through this medium.

Ok "doesn't matter" is probably too strong. If your art makes someone feel good or think about things they might not otherwise contemplate then it matters. You get the point though.

[mer]

if you're going to get all nihilistic then i guess nothing really matters. i would just say that i prefer the illusion that our lives are significant. this discussion and the work it represents is meaningful to us so it matters to somebody.

i don't really see the pompous bickering or offended/hurt viewpoints. this seems like a legitimate and civil discussion of art to me.....

or it did before it died out a couple days ago.

[slinger]

...pipes don't matter, goblets don't matter, paperweights don't matter, marbles don't matter....Ok "doesn't matter" is probably too strong. If your art makes someone feel good or think about things they might not otherwise contemplate then it matters. You get the point though.


lol

[matte eskuche]

blah, blah, blah, of course it fucking matters. it all matters, all the content the intent the subtent, the retent, the obtent, the nontent. and everything else.

[Travis Tyler]

Of course it matters to us. It's what we do. I'm just saying that in the bigger picture there are way more important things.
Another point I was trying to make (admittedly I could have said it better) is that whether or not your work is in a gallery, a head shop or anywhere else doesn't make it any better or more relevant than anyone else's work.
Props to you Sling for trying to make what we do a little more recognized by folks who might not otherwise see it or care about it.
Again, I have respect for anyone who loves this medium and chooses to express themselves through it no matter what you make or where your work is represented.

[Micah Evans]

:crap:


my work changes my world, my work makes my world a little better to be in, in the big picture of my life my work is totally at the top.

if your work doesn't really matter to you and really has no bearing on the "big picture" of your life then please please please stop making it or make something else.

[Travis Tyler]

Ok now, you honestly don't think there are things that are more important than glass? Let me say this AGAIN Of course our work matters to us. My work matters to me. Your work matters to you. But to not at least entertain the thought that there might be things more important than glass in the "big picture" is just being stubborn. I love what I do. If no one remembers me for it, if I never make any real money from it, if my stuff is never on Antiques Roadshow 100 yrs from now, if no one even likes my work, I will still love working with glass. But my sons future (for one thing) is more important than glass. If glass can't pay his way to college etc. then I will have no choice but to leave it behind, as a living, to do something else. No matter how much I love it. That's all I'm saying. Some things are more important. I didn't figure I would have to explain in detail. I was just making what I thought was a pretty basic statement. Need another example? Ask someone in Darfur how important the glass pipe movement, or anything other than food, shelter, and safety for that matter, is in the "big picture". Perhaps I wasn't being clear. Surely now you would agree that some things are more important than glass.
Listen, I stirred the pot a little, but there's no reason to say I shouldn't do glass work anymore. No matter what my opinion is about anything, I have just as much right as anyone else to manipulate molten glass into whatever I wish (or whatever my skill and imagination will allow).
For the record Micah, I like your work. And I'm glad that your work makes your world a little better. I wasn't trying to take anything away from that. Just like I've said in both posts, I have respect for everyone in this community. All I did was state my personal opinion. Apparently I should keep it to myself. I should probably be working instead of typing anyway.

[Micah Evans]

humans are so fucking silly.

the universe will go on long after humankind so fuck it. You and I are bitter motherfuckers I can sense a little brotherhood there. I guess in my big picture we all die whether its sufferiing in Darfur or in opiate overdose bliss so you have to do what makes you feel like a better person at any given time. If done right artwork can bring change to the world, even if its just one viewer. Word spreads.....

pipemaking doesn't seem like it can change the world, it probably can't. But people like slinger who have a way of getting their voice heard can. Who knows what that cat will be up to in 20 years and his message may resonate with others along the way that will make a difference.

if you keep your "big picture" to big you forget you can radically alter your immediate environment at any given time. We all want to conquer the world.....baby steps.

and i meant no disrespect, sometimes I post when i'm in a bad mood.

[Travis Tyler]

I couldn't agree more Micah. Well put.
I wish I'd chosen my words differently in my first post. Like I said in my edit, "doesn't matter" is to strong and absolute a statement. I feel like the point was lost in the semantics. I readily correct myself.
On another note. Are you still in Fl? If so, we should get together and make some "bitter" work. lol

[davidwillisglass]

crazy long discussion about art vs. pipemaking. We all know what pipemaking is, what is art, is there a difference?

in my opinion, art tries to ask a question, be part of a conversation, maybe make a point, effect people's minds.

I've heard people argue that something made to be functional cannot be art, and that this is the difference between art and craft.

maybe these are important considerations to this discussion.

There are art galleries, pipe galleries, glass galleries. all kinds, just like there are all kinds of people doing all kinds of work. get in where you fit in

as far as pipes being the most significant movement in American Glass, I think that is less interesting, and I would disagree.

[J Howard]

i gave up on pipes a few years ago. just time for change, that's it . nothing political nothing content oriented. just time for a change. goblets are my prodo now. different skill set and patience level. different audience to conquer. by this time next year, i'll probably drop them like a bad habit, having learned what i can learn from them for the time being. learning... that's at the heart of it. if you're still learning something, rock it out! that's the whole point! THATS WHAT MATTERS- it's the journey. if you become bound by what you're doing, do something else!

[slinger]

as far as pipes being the most significant movement in American Glass, I think that is less interesting, and I would disagree.

its significant enough to get you talking about it

[davidwillisglass]

I think it is signifigant to us anyway. I would not have started working with glass if it were not for bob snodgrass, and I think that is true for most of the people who use this site, certainly for all of the pipemakers. So what I think is the most signifigant aspect of pipemaking in terms of american glass history, is that it has introduced many people to glass, which is great.

So I'm not disinterested in the subject, but I think the signifigance of pipemaking to American Glassmaking History, has yet to be really seen. Certainly it has been the driving force in introducing people to lampworking in the last 15 or 20 years, and a lot of work has been made, but if that makes it the most signifigant thing in the big picture, is what I question.

What really got me talking was reading through the beginning of the thread about people talking about glass, and art, and pipes, and galleries, and where pipemaking and pipemakers fit in to all of these things. I think those are interesting topics.

[glasscove]

Slinger:

I have no idea who you are - but I tell you - you make me think! Just dont do too much of that 'weed; you love and fry your brains. You've got good ideas.

Nancy

[mer]

*sigh

[Mac Maestro]

Oh no. Bad bead lady! Bringing back posts from '08 to compliment while putting down. +1 on the sigh.

[p.j.]

slinger has no idea who she is either!!! and probably doesn't care....

can't wait for his documentary.

[metalbone]

...Bad bead lady!...+1 on the sigh.

For some reason, I really like this...

[glasscove]

Oh no. Bad bead lady! Bringing back posts from '08 to compliment while putting down. +1 on the sigh.

Why are there some that want to see the negative all the time?

[glasscove]

slinger has no idea who she is either!!! and probably doesn't care....

can't wait for his documentary.


Apparently my point was missed by the last few. I'll try again.
I have had nothing to do with the 'pipe' scene, nor the 'weed' scene. I walked the straight and narrow path. I am now in my mid 50's and recently I tried the 'product' to relieve my headaches.:D I began to challenge my thinking and questioning the legalities of marijuana. I am now a big pusher for the legalization of it.
Perhaps you guys are all of an age where it is more acceptable - It wasn't for me growing up.
MY POINT TO SLINGER is: I like the way you think, the way you write, the way you are passionate for the cause etc. I am assuming, perhaps incorrectly, but Slinger has the mental ability to see my original post for what it was - and to Maestro who was arrogant enough to suggest "Bad bead lady' and 'posts from 2008', well that is just the type of crap that keeps different sides from seeing each others point of view whether it is on this forum or life in general. Sigh.

And you're probably right - Slinger might not care who I am - and really that's not important to me. I read this entire thread - and all the comments - and I found him (there were others) to be interesting and thought provoking. I thought I would tell him so - and I did.