"Artist" debate

[Mr. Wonka]

I was at a local gallery a while back and spoke to a painter who did some really beautiful work. I told her that two of my favorite painters were Bob Ross, and Thomas Kinkade (http://www.thomaskinkade.com/magi/servlet/com.asucon.ebiz.catalog.web.tk.CatalogServlet) . When I mentioned Kinkade, she went ballistic. I heard a rant about how “his” work was a joke and that he’s a fraud. When I asked her why she felt that way, she told me how he just comes up with a design and has a team of people crank out the paintings and he just puts his signature at the bottom. In her opinion it’s acceptable for an artist to have assistants, but taking credit for other people’s efforts and talents is just wrong.

Fast forward a few minutes into the conversation, when she asked me what kind of work that I do. When I told her I was a glass worker, she told me how much she admired the work of Dale Chihuly.... how inspirational his pieces are, and all of the exhibits she visited that showcased his work.

When I told her that other than the medium they work with, there’s no difference between Kinkade and Chihuly… they both sign their name to work that was produced by other people. For some strange reason she seemed to justify Chihuly’s actions (because he’s “Dale Chihuly”), but stood by her opinion that Kinkade was still wrong for what he does.

To me, that’s a double standard. If it’s wrong for the “painter”, it should be just as wrong for the “glass worker”, no matter what your name is or how well known you are.

I’d like to hear your opinions about this conversation.

[Chris Juedemann]

For the record.. it's "Chullie". Get your facts straight ;-)

Bob Ross... isn't he the puffy cloud guy? Tom Kinkade.. the hobbit snowy house guy? If I could have someone that was good enough to carry out my vision, I would be more than happy. Of course, I'm from the South.

['I’d like to hear your opinions about this conversation']

I think one is snowy house hobbit style and one is very cool pretty glass style. Both make the yankee dollar, and that seems to be the plan.

But once again.. this is all subjective. And it will be tomorrow.


Chris

[wifebeader]

I agree with you totally Mr Wonka!
I was schooled as a painter and believe the same artistic integrity should hold for both. I will withhold my opin on Kincade's art(LOL!!) though I admire greatly his marketing prowess! $250 mil a year!! I give him mega props for that!!!
I thought Chihuly's work was awesome until I got into the glass world and saw what everyone online was creating(all y'all included).........okay, I am still a newbie but I feel I can tell good glass a little bit......maybe I am going by gut but when I saw the Jason Lee section on DA's video I wept it was so amazing.......to me his work is glass FINE ART with capital letters!
your painter friend just hasn't been exposed enough to the world of art glass to develop her taste in glass is what I think. Don't mean offense by that.....just my two cents.... :lol

[Chris Juedemann]

Oh hell.. I just followed your TK link. It IS the hobbit snow house fireplace warm cozy guy.

Crap. Total crap.


Chris

[Matt Hess]

Agree with wonka. Bob Ross is the shit. Old school hippy painter. You can tell he grew up in the acid times. Kinkade is a joke to if you ask me. My 2 cents.
Peace

[Chris Juedemann]

http://www.thomaskinkade.com/htmlroot/tk/images/catalog/product/chreve_f0.jpg

http://www.chihuly.com/baskets/Art/BasketBook_p081_80.1720.b1_B.jpg

[Matt Hess]

Kinkade is like a wonna be N. Rockwell, but not as good or origonal.

[wifebeader]

sorry.......trying to negate the K art..............

[Racer X]

I won't have nothin' to do with this.

[zgeniez]

I've put some thought into this over the years as well. It seems once an artist hits a certain point in their career where they have a style that is in demand, be it through originality or great marketing, they have to hire some help to keep up with the demand. Some times these people are brought on as apprentices and learn as they go. Other times they already know what they are doing and are just there for the paycheck. Does this make them any more or less of an artist? Are they being creative or are they just performing a skilled trade. Is there a line that's crossed somewhere when the reproductive art becomes a trade? At what point does the name on the piece represent the "company" rather than the individual? I think it depends on the perspective of the viewer.

I worked for a couple years manufacturing and repairing circuit boards for Agilent Technologies. Allot of the repair work I did was on prototype production...not all the bugs had been worked out in the manufacturing process and I got to come up with some very creative ways to repair and alter the board's production process. The engineers that design these boards are nothing short of creative genius. They expressed more conventional artwork by making smiley faces, peace signs, and all other sorts of doodles, as well as their initials with components and copper traces- some so small you can't see without a microscope. All said and done, the boards still have to operate at microwave frequencies. Genius. Creativity. Art? I say yes. But each piece is signed with a company name on the front. Sony. Volkswaggon. GE. No recognition for the artists that create. Just a paycheck and the satisfaction that you did the best job you could at what you did.

There is only so much space on a piece of art for people to sign there names. Some times that name represents an unseen collective rather than an individual. At some point the name represents a style or medium even more more so than the individual that created it. Say blown glass to the average non-artsy person on the street and most likely they hear Chihuly in their head.

Personally, I would like to be able to see the names of the people that created a piece of art. It would be nice to have a signature or symbol that could represent those people. That would be an art form of it's own. ~Zac~

[rumplephorskin]

The painter chick prolly dissed him because SHE is a painter. If she blew glass but couldn't paint then she prolly would have been doggin on Chihuly. An interesting side note about America's richest glass pirate. A friend of mine who worked in a dry cleaners in Seattle told me that he used to send his laundry to her store in a cab and that his underwear was skid mark city!!! Just another dirty w00k.

[Brian Newman]

A painter is still a painter if he dosen't mix his own paints and weave his own canvas. If I use picture cane made by someone else, I don't try to take credit for their work, but I am not afraid to call the whole piece my work. I don't mine the gold and silver, and I don't batch my own glass. We are just the ones who get credit for the work of countless others.

[Turning Point Glass]

What about architecture? If that can be considered an art form, which I think it can, is the artist the architect who conceives and designs the finished product or is it the construction crew that builds it? I would say it's the architect. Carrying that analogy over to painting, the artist doesn't really have to lay a brush on the canvas at all, s/he simply has to be the one to imagine the finished product - the art in this example lies in the mind of the artist, not the skill of his hand.

[homer]

C'mon Rex......give us your 2 cents.....I always love hearing what you have to say!

Homer

[Chris Juedemann]

When you go to hear a symphony, or even a swing band, the conductor takes a bow. When you buy from a company with a name.. Lowes, Westinghouse, Edison.. what name is that.. the line mechanic? It just seems a little silly to question how someone gets something done.. it's that they get it done.

What does the end product look like, what does it do? That is my focus.

Chris

[themoch]

Ha,

This is great... i actually wrote a paper on this subject for an art history class.... how Dale is a hack in my opinion (not to say his visions are not outstanding)... My favorite reason is this:

in a self written book Dale claims that he stopped blowing glass in 1976 due to his loss of eye in a car accident. saying his loss of depth made it impossible for him to blow glass, thus passing it off to his peons and making him the "glass maestro"

What really gets me is that in several other of his self written books you see pictures of Dale actually blowing glass with the date 1987 or something right across from the page that says he stopped blowing glass himself in 1976 after his car accident. not to mention he did a special with martha stewart recently where he's actually assisting her in blowing glass.

What really got me down was i first saw Dale's work at the Corning museum. i saw this massive green structure with a single mans name on it, and i thought that he had done each of these pieces and assembled it himself. i guess i was disillusioned when i found out he probably didn't touch any of that glass himself at all and that there's store rooms filled with those pieces just waiting to be put together.

I feel that in large works there should be credits like at the end of the movie... that way we understand that the "director" is the one with the vision, and the vision was possible with the help of others.

[Chris Juedemann]

...in a self written book..

He doesn't write his books, he has shop boys to do that ;-)

I have one Chihuly book.. it's mainly quotes of Dale saying very profound things like, "I let the glass speak to me, and tell me where it should go". Please.

But the pictures.. the works.. well, they are Chihuly. I hope you got an F on your paper for being blinder than the pirate. You saw a massive green structure and looked at the name. You should have stepped back a bit.

Chris

[michaelangeloglass]

Well then, both are talent sucking vampires, but you don't hear their employe's bitchin. lol

I used to not like Chihuly because of that, but shit he put American glass art on the map, but that's not to say that someone else wouldn't have. Who cares? here we are ,and wrap and optic molded garbage is worth a retarded amount of loot. Just like how popular wrap and raked pieces were back in the day, just give it some time and the people will catch on.


Anyway ask yourself this ......

How does www.alexgrey.com not consider himself an artist?

I met him @ his chapel of mirrors when I was in NYC this spring, a really nice guy, seems really inlightend.

[Mike_Aurelius]

Dale is an expert at self-promotion (like Martha Stewart and CT)...and an arrogant asshole. I guess if you want to find out about the real person, talk to his peons. Off the record, of course ;)

I don't know anything about Kincaid.

[Northwinds Glass]

its simple kincaid and ross = painters , not artists

[zgeniez]

its simple kincaid and ross = painters , not artists


So at what point does one procure the title artist? Does that mean you have to show proof of self expression? Has Kinkade or Ross ever painted a piece just for fun, or maybe to make a point? Something from the heart? If you and/or your team makes 500 prodo pieces in a month and you produce one individual piece...something from your heart....are you an artist, a crafter, or just a designer? Is a designer an artist?

Will someone define the roll of Artist?

[PyroChixRock]

art·ist Pronunciation Key (ärtst)
n.

1.One, such as a painter, sculptor, or writer, who is able by virtue of imagination and talent or skill to create works of aesthetic value, especially in the fine arts.

2. A person whose work shows exceptional creative ability or skill: You are an artist in the kitchen.

3. One, such as an actor or singer, who works in the performing arts.

4. One who is adept at an activity, especially one involving trickery or deceit: a con artist.

[Robert Mickelsen]

Thomas Kinkaid is an extremely commercial painter and his approach has been very successful. There are many Kinkaid clones. Two that come to mind are the "whale guy", http://www.wyland.com/ and the "tropical surfer guy" http://www.lassengallerymaui.com/, both of whom use the same marketing strategy that Kinkaid uses.

There are many similarities between these guys and Chihuly... and many differences as well. I can't stand the paintings but I actually like one or two of Chihuly's works. :tongue:

- RAM

[Chris Carlson]

happy trees= art. ross rocks.