Hidden Fees and other downfalls from Glass Supply Websites

[JLF]

I'm bitter.

Being farily new at purchasing glass from many different companies I find that with each order there is some new hidden "catch".

It's like a bad trick that gets played on me regardless of which website I order from. The result is not horrifying, it doesn't ruin my day, but with the click of each "confirm order" button on glass websites I wait a few days to get sand rubbed in my eyes before my shipment confirmation comes in with my invoice.

This has been my learning process through my past orders:
1. Having an item for sale on a website doesn't mean it's in stock

2. Checking "confirm shipment costs before shipping" during checkout means nothing

3. If items aren't in stock that you ordered, the rest of your order will be billed and shipped to you with a "sorry out of stock" note

4. Filling out "Please notify me when *blank* is in stock" pages mean nothing

5. Every website has hidden costs you need to first read on the shipping pages, these charges are not listed during times of check out or payment, but are refelected on invoices. (Ex. Cutting rod is $0.50 per lb, 3ft+ rod means $10 per carton extra shipping)

6. Discounts sometimes are applied to correct items, and sometimes are not

7. Ordering 7lbs means getting 4, 5.5, 6.5, 7.5, or 8 pounds

I'm sure there are more issues I've encountered. I know a lot of these gripes can have the finger pointed back at me, and I'm sure the cold hearts of many of you are itching to post back a quick witted reply at my ignorance "When you order in pounds, a full rod/tube can't always be rounded to your exact desired weight" or "There is a reason for having a shipping page on a website, it covers shipping price policy".

I understand this. But after having maybe ONLY 10 orders total from various websites and almost each one having some sort of minor issue, it's frustrating.

So for any supply shop owners reading this, here are general suggestions for designing better websites:

1. Inventory is key in ANY business, websites should be designed around inventory on hand, which is available for sale. This should be directly linked to a counter system when orders are placed. ex. 10 lbs of clear on hand, customer A orders 6 lbs, customer B should NOT be able to order more than 4 lbs.

2. Each item should have properties or attributes that refelect shipping. ex. If rods and tubing require a $10 carton fee this flag should be tripped when the items are placed in the shopping cart, hence the fee should be listed during checkout

3. Features of websites aren't features if they don't work. ex. Requesting notification of out of stock items being restocked, means exactly that.

4. If item discounts are supposed to be applied to certain items, these discounts should be applied.

5. If items are sold by the pound approximate equivalents should be given for the item in rods/tubes. ex 1lb = .75 rods we only sell full rods. (makes you wonder why it isn't sold by the rod then anyways) ((waiting for a comment on this one))

All 5 suggestions can be automated, I've worked in relation with computer science for many years and none of these are challenging tasks. They are basics. Your web designers are slacking or you haven't asked enough of them.

</RANT>

It felt good to let that out, please let me know what you think, and what you think could be changed/added to glass supply websites.

[Swampy]

Just to add;

Supplier adding their promotional material increases shipping costs...

= Ring n' things (unrequested by me) catalogues and other promotional materials; twelve ounces.

ordered items; six ounces.

...cost of shipping item... $12

...cost of shipping I found out about when I received visa card bill = $35

fuckers.

Cost me $23 to receive their fucking catalogues, not even required cos I can see them online...


/outraged

[mikejones]

You got me laughing man, there are some companies that pissed me off so bad, I just refuse to order from then again, no matter how good the sale. One particular company that has some sweet chinese black, just pisses me off every time I order. But damn, the black is so butter......I keep ordering, they keep being pricks.....life goes on

[Swampy]

Ya me too Mike, I still order shit from rings n things because their product line is so vast.

But now I get them to ship it to TX instead of direct here, takes 10X longer but 10X cheaper = :-)

[Greymatter Glass]

I dunno what's up with Belize, it costs more to ship something there than it does to Japan.

[THAT Guy]

Yeah, they can really be a pain sometimes but you can avoid the headaches by calling. I always call Kristian at Generations before ordering and I've never once had any hidden surprises since he accurately calculates shipping on his site. Order from him at http://www.generationsglass.com and you won't have any more problems.

[Big Jay]

Reminds me of the order I placed for a pin vise from glasscraft and they sent me the catalog with it. The pin vice was like 8 bucks but the catalog was so damn beefy it put the shipping at like 15 bucks. Best part of all their catalog has no pictures whatsoever and everything says refer to the website for more information. Now thats shitty. Needless to say though them doing that to me has kept me away or at least put them last on my list in priority. They know their catalog weighs so many ounces.. either send it to me media mail and foot the bill or add it into my box and foot the bill or keep the damn thing. A customer should never pay for the sales material of a vendor.
And I hate being nickel and dimed. Most of these guys have been in business long enough that the web site calculator on total costs and shipping costs should be accurate at least 99% of the time. Adding box charges and this charge and that charge is absolutely ridiculous. Its ok they need to get paid for it but make it one fee and make it obvious.
The truth is there are an awful lot of suppliers out there now so you have the option to take your business elsewhere when your not happy. While you might face a lower selection on tools and stuff with small vendors, I've been much happier with pricing and service on stuff like color.

[lucidvisions]

While I'm not chimming in on any web based suppliers, I'd like to add my .02 tot he discussion. I have bought from company "A" for many years now and there's nothing more frusterating in that every time I order they're out of 40% of the color I requested. Another 20% of the order cannot be completely filled so I get what they have in stock. I really wonder where the issue is. Is it the company's lack of preplanning? Is it the color companies that aren't making enough stock? Whatever it is it is very frustrating. There's nothing worse than going to multiple companies trying to get what you need. Not only is it an inconvenience but it really messes with figuring out glass costs in your production line if pricing is all across the board.

The catalog thing you guys are talking about is BS by the way.

To end this, I too will give kudos to Generations. Kristian is great at his job and is usually very stocked up. If he is out of a color he lets you know when it is expected in stock where as company"A" doesn't have a clue. Thanks Kristian for making our lives a bit less difficult.

Josh

[Swampy]

They know their catalog weighs so many ounces.. either send it to me media mail and foot the bill or add it into my box and foot the bill or keep the damn thing. A customer should never pay for the sales material of a vendor.


Exfuckingzactly, you know.


Yes and Generations is how it should be done; I get an order confirmation straight away, I get a freight tracking thing soon as it goes out the door, can't beat that.


Oh and whilst this is the gripe about everything thread, why does catshit have to stink so much? Jeez, I mean fucking yeck.

[menty666]

Just a note about the boxes....

With the 3' and over thing, the extra length makes it more expensive to ship. UPS and FedEx have higher rates for bigger boxes, and the post office does this too because the air carriers started charging them for the space on the plane, not just the weight.

And Bullseye (and a few others) charge boxing fees but they also may use a stronger inner box, extra cushioning, etc. so given a sheet may cost me 25.00, I'm ok paying a little extra to get it to me in one piece.

As for the weight thing on the glass, that's annoying, but it's the nature of the beast. It's a quarter pound of glass, but then another few ounces of packing material, which has it's own cost, a little weight for the box or boxes, so it's tough to give an accurate count.

As for the other stuff.......a lot of times the suppliers are glass artists themselves, they aren't necessarily computer geeks that put together shopping carts and meticulously track inventory. It's annoying not having real time inventory numbers as a customer, but if the price is right and the service is great *cough*Generations*cough* I can ignore any other small problems.

Now minimum order amounts and rounding up if you don't make it.....that's my peeve.

[jr23]

The problem with out of stock stuff would be that sometimes sales are used to rotate stock before new stock comes in. Motives for sales can be vast but that is just one of many!

[KT-Old School Glass]

I would first like to thank the ones that have supported me in this thread.

Now I would like to address some of these issues from the perspective of a glass supply business so that most can understand what goes on behind the scenes. (I do have to say that I do agree with some of the statements made as well)


1. Having an item for sale on a website doesn't mean it's in stock
3. If items aren't in stock that you ordered, the rest of your order will be billed and shipped to you with a "sorry out of stock" note
7. Ordering 7lbs means getting 4, 5.5, 6.5, 7.5, or 8 pounds

Most, if not all, supply businesses have "walk-in" and website inventory combined. I do try to keep a current inventory for the website but if someone comes in and buys 3 lbs of NS-01 and I don't get to the receipt book until the end of the day or the next day, the website inventory will be off. During sales it is even harder to keep track of this. Not to mention that I have a studio next door to me that comes in several times a day and picks up materials as well as the rental studio artists that pick out materials during the day.


2. Checking "confirm shipment costs before shipping" during checkout means nothing
5. Every website has hidden costs you need to first read on the shipping pages, these charges are not listed during times of check out or payment, but are refelected on invoices. (Ex. Cutting rod is $0.50 per lb, 3ft+ rod means $10 per carton extra shipping)

I have my website shopping cart tied directly into my UPS and USPS shipping software. 99% of the time the shipping costs that are shown in the shopping cart are accurate.

The Shipping & Handling costs include exact shipping, handling charges (to cover packing materials, boxes, and employee wages), and additional boxing charges if they apply.

Please understand that the additional boxing charges are for a reason. Full cases are difficult to ship and keep intact during shipping. The boxes alone for me to ship a case of glass cost $13 each and take $8 worth of peanuts. I on the other hand am only charging an additional $12 for shipping a case of glass.

I will be taking a long look at your suggestions to help Generations Glass be the best it can be.

[JLF]

Just to clarify, I completely understand the charges for additional boxing or packaging. I just don't like the idea of not knowing what this cost will be until AFTER I'm charged. Which is common practice with some companies.

I speak for myself when I say I'm low on funds and purchase using my debit card through my bank. Say I purchase an example order, from a site that has calculated with shipping and handling to be $75. I shouldn't have to place $100 in my bank account and watch it for three days then have $89 withdrawn.

Until I got into glass, I loved shopping on the internet. The cost you were billed was the cost you clicked "submit" for. With glass I can't balance my books until the company bills me the actual charge. And this charge takes place, usually the exact same time my order ships. So there is no room to make changes, (add new items to replace out of stock ones, or replace an item that throws off the shipping charges).

Shipping a $100 purchase that costs $5 to ship is not a big deal if the guess on shipping of the company is close... you are looking at shipping being roughly 5% of the total cost. Now when shipping a $100 purchase that costs $25 or more to ship that's about 20% of a customer's purchase.

In my opinion, this is taken entirely too lightly by the handful of companies I have delt with. Shipping is a huge cost, customers should be accurately told what this cost will be, upfront, before they are billed, before their order ships.

I know I'm relatively new to glass. I know it's a tight knit community, I know many of you have been doing this for years or even decades and can probably remember so many more problems than this that it is annoying to read mundane issues from a relatively preachy new guy.

But I think we ALL deserve more as customers. Criticisms and Compliments bring change. For the guys that make huge orders, I would hope for your sake you don't experience these problems frequently.

Generations is great, I hope you guys continue to outshine other companies and make improvements so that they one day will have to adapt to better policies to keep up with you.

</RANT2>

[Greymatter Glass]

I'm with Kristian 100% on this.

I haven't even really started advertising my website, and I do a very limited amount of mail order right now, but from experience, I can tell you that "hidden" fees are not usually hidden, and are justified.

For shipping cases I have to pay for what's called dimensional weight. Anything over a certain sized box costs almost 2x as much to ship. My boxes are 72x11x11 to allow for the fedex required 2" on each end, and 1" all around. The boxes COST me $7 each, and yeah, I recycle peanuts as often as possible, but I can easily put $5 worth of virgin peanuts in a box. I only charge $5/box handling. I lose money on those things. I could raise it to 10/box, but that seems too high.

Cutting glass into smaller lengths to save $10-15 on shipping is not worth the time it takes, so if someone were to request it I would have to tell them something stupid like $0.50 a lb to cut it because not only does it take a tremendous amount of time to cut a case in half, it also dulls my $75 diamond saw blade, and gets all the glass dirty, so I have to wash it off again.

As for my final shipping costs, I can do things one of two ways: estimate it on the fed ex website, or bill actual shipping. I prefer to bill actual shipping. I am not a delivery company so I see no reason to charge anything other than actual shipping and handling charges. When someone calls and wants an estimate I can give them that, but often the actual price when I enter it in for pick up comes out higher or lower. If I have a CC# and permission to bill actual shipping I do just that.

On the matter of color stock... you try keeping 10# of every color in stock. I know what $10,000 buys on a wholesale level, and it's not really all that impressive. I hope to some day have 10# of every color, but that would cost me more than my entire business has to date.


As for extra stuff.... depends on what shipping method I guess... over night would cost a lot extra... ground, not so much. You can always call and request they don't send anything extra.

Personally, if I had some promotional materials to mail out and knew it would cost an extra $5 on the shipping, I would cover that myself.


... Anyways, I always sent customers I can't help to Kristian, and will continue to do so, but I will be putting up my website soon, I can only hope things go smooth. And I can't expect everyone to be happy. but I will do my best.

(for the record, I have no space right now, I have to pack shipments on the floor in the middle of the studio, so when things are hectic, I can't clear the space.... in a few weeks I'll have 1900 sq ft of shipping space... yay!)

-Doug

[Greymatter Glass]

I'd also add that shipping prices are at an all time high. Sometimes fuel surcharges and rates change daily. Sometimes 10-15%. that's something out of the control of the shippers.

I can tell you the more you order and the longer you're willing to wait, the cheaper the shipping will be.

On a $200 order I often have to charge people like $40 a box for shipping - that's fed ex ground COST. So yeah, 20% is shipping.

On a $4000 pallet the cost is like $300... or <10%.



(p.s. Nate S. if you're reading this, I will call you today, i swear, I am still fighting this damn sinus infection and have been out for a few days again)

-Doug

[jr23]

I might also add these company's do a great job for me I like ordering from Genarations have got plenty of good service and very close accurate shipping info! At least you are shown a invoice and have conformation e-mails and such. I have had more troubles with orders trying to order a piece of this or a few of that. Once I tried to get as much as I can when I can has helped cut down on the number of orders a year! Less orders less shipping period!

[JLF]

As far as inventory and product on stock. Barcodes are great.

In-house inventory SHOULD be directly tied into the computer which should be tied to the website. Meaning the website and the store should share the same database on inventory.

Each shelf of product should have a barcode taped to the shelf below it. Each time inventory is added or subtracted, the barcode on the shelf is scanned and the ammount added or subtracted is manually typed into the computer. All hassles then of transferring sales to a website at the end of the night are eliminated. (Ex. 25lbs of NS-01 come in, barcode scanned on shelf +25 entered to computer, Customer comes in purchase 2lbs, barcode scanned -2 entered to computer)

Inventory is then maintained in real time for the shop owner, the in-store customers, and the customers out on the world wide web. At the end of the night piles of sheets aren't sorted through, the work is already done.

Saves the shop time, confusion, and money in the long run. Keeps customers HAPPY and up to date on what they CAN purchase.

Before shop owners destroy this idea with "The cost of that is too great", "We aren't tech geeks", etc...

The cost should not be that great. You can print the barcodes (and only one per shelf) you can purchase a barcode scanner for realtively cheap, the updates to your software and website are a necessary expense in the long run.

If you can't do this now, ok, but this should be what you are striving for.

If you think the cost is too great to implement a professional system like this, go out to your local state university and schedule an apointment with a senior level Computer Science professor. I'm positive CS students final projects are creating software for small companies that solves their problems. Approach the professor and school with your current business needs and issues. You might have the chance of getting your software customized and produced free by students that are competing against each other for the highest grade, which is determined by meeting a dead line, and meeting the client's needs to the fullest.

Just some food for thought...

[KT-Old School Glass]

I know what $10,000 buys on a wholesale level, and it's not really all that impressive.

Ain't that the truth...so many people think that suppliers get these DEEP discounts. That is just not the case...it's not like in a head shop that pays $10 for a prodo spoon and sells it for $40. That profit margin is reversed for glass suppliers.

[Frankie Hess]

I'm personally happy to have all the suppliers we have. As a business owner, I realize it is my job to find and utilize the best companies and deals out there in order to cut costs and keep efficiency. We are not going to get all of our needs met by one supplier, this is just the way it is. If you choose to use only one supplier that is your choice, but is not the most effective method.

I do have to order from suppliers that make mistakes, or replace out of stock items with stuff I did not order sometimes. But only when they are having a sale, or have an item I can not get elsewhere. I always call in my orders and deal direct, making all of my needs apparent and asking them not to replace out of stock items with other items unless specified.

We all get frustrated with some suppliers, but we have the choice to take our business elsewhere! If we can't get the item anywhere else, then we'll deal with it. That's the cost of doing business.

As for shipping, the suppliers are not the ones charging actual shipping. So until they get the final exact weight and box size (this means the entire order packed up) they can not know for sure exactly what shipping is. How is this their fault, if you don't like it, go pic it up.

I am not saying it's not a good idea for some of these businesses to implement some of what you're saying. In fact, I think you have some good ideas. But you have to be realistic! These business have a very low profit margin on their products, this means they need to sell volume in order to make money. It is not their job to worry about if you have the extra 5 bucks in your account (for an out sourced service) on a $80 order that their most likely making $35 profit off of (if their lucky).

I here you, but we must take some accountability. Some things are just the customers responsibility! Customer service can only go so far, and from where it was when I first started blowing glass, I'm lovin it!!!

Thanks to:
Mountainglassarts
Generations
Cornerstoneglass
For all of my personal experiences, and any other supply house that is bumping up customer service! I know there are a lot more of you out there now, and it's nice to know!

[menty666]

As far as inventory and product on stock. Barcodes are great.

In-house inventory SHOULD be directly tied into the computer which should be tied to the website. Meaning the website and the store should share the same database on inventory.

Each shelf of product should have a barcode taped to the shelf below it. Each time inventory is added or subtracted, the barcode on the shelf is scanned and the ammount added or subtracted is manually typed into the computer. All hassles then of transferring sales to a website at the end of the night are eliminated. (Ex. 25lbs of NS-01 come in, barcode scanned on shelf +25 entered to computer, Customer comes in purchase 2lbs, barcode scanned -2 entered to computer)

Inventory is then maintained in real time for the shop owner, the in-store customers, and the customers out on the world wide web. At the end of the night piles of sheets aren't sorted through, the work is already done.

Saves the shop time, confusion, and money in the long run. Keeps customers HAPPY and up to date on what they CAN purchase.

Before shop owners destroy this idea with "The cost of that is too great", "We aren't tech geeks", etc...

The cost should not be that great. You can print the barcodes (and only one per shelf) you can purchase a barcode scanner for realtively cheap, the updates to your software and website are a necessary expense in the long run.

If you can't do this now, ok, but this should be what you are striving for.

If you think the cost is too great to implement a professional system like this, go out to your local state university and schedule an apointment with a senior level Computer Science professor. I'm positive CS students final projects are creating software for small companies that solves their problems. Approach the professor and school with your current business needs and issues. You might have the chance of getting your software customized and produced free by students that are competing against each other for the highest grade, which is determined by meeting a dead line, and meeting the client's needs to the fullest.

Just some food for thought...

I don't mean to be a dick, but do you barcode all of the products YOU make and sell? It's a nice thought, and if you're running a gigantic business with dozens of workers it makes sense. But if you're a small business with slim profit margins to begin with the added expense doesn't really justify the effort.

[JLF]

I don't mean to be a dick, but do you barcode all of the products YOU make and sell? It's a nice thought, and if you're running a gigantic business with dozens of workers it makes sense. But if you're a small business with slim profit margins to begin with the added expense doesn't really justify the effort.

I understand what you are saying. And I hope my tone can be some how carried through written text. I am not trying to hold an argument or turn this into a heated, angry debate.

I was not implying that every product sold should have a barcode attached to it. As in a customer walks in and buys a pound of a color with a bar code attached. What I am saying is having a system where each shelf has a bar code. Example: Your company carries 50 colors from northstar, that means you have 50 bar codes. These barcodes could even be stored on pages in a binder if you wanted (which is described later). When an item is added or subtracted from inventory the barcode is scanned and the quanitity is updated through a keyboard. The barcodes are only ever printed once. It's a huge convience for inventory management. Especially if your database in-store is merged with your website.

An example of a small store that uses barcodes near me is my local florist. All of her barcodes are in a 3-ringed binder. Others are taped to her desk that she uses often. This elimantes her having to write out different wraps, ribbons, baskets, etc.. that she uses. A quick swipe of the respective barcode pops up the item and price in her computer/cash register. I highly doubt she deals in extreme volumes or is dealing with items with a huge profit return. The women that work in her shop are all middle aged to senior citizens, I'm sure the system helps them to a great degree.

An example of large public service that has/is switching to barcodes is the library system. One barcode for a book that never gets re-printed and that book no longer has to stamped with a date or have a time card written out again.

The barcode simplifies business..

(example pic)
http://www.leedsth.nhs.uk/sites/supplies/images/BarcodeBookandScanner.jpg

[mikejones]

Kristian, from the last order you sent me, I have like 5 huge contractor bags of peanuts, if you want em back, just cover the shipping and they are yours friend. Not sure if it is worth it.

[dudleybivens]

I agree with every single thing jlf has said. it's crazy buying something that you don't know the cost of, and rather annoying.

if you're a small business with slim profit margins, that's all the more reason to have an automated inventory system. how much time do you small business owners spend reworking orders, backordering product, making sure your website matches up with your store front, etc.

automating your inventory and adding bar codes to product, and such is LESS work overall, not more. just takes some thought and set up. and if you cant offset the cost, go ahead and add your hidden fees to the orders until you get it paid for.

[Mike_Aurelius]

JLF -- sitting on the sidelines, the barcode idea sounds wonderful, after all, it works in the grocery store, right?

In real life, it **doesn't** work that way.

Not everyone buys by the pound. Some folks buy by the rod. That has to be weighed. By hand.

Tying the brick and mortar inventory database to the on-line database sounds real good too, until you get into lag times, on-line server issues etc etc ad nauseum. Not every retailer has their webserver in the same room as their company data server. I know I don't!!

Don't get me wrong, they are good ideas and mayhap some of them may be implemented by retailers as time goes by. But it isn't quite as easy as you make it seem.

Then, there is the software issue. Not all company accounting software is created equal. Sometimes it takes a great deal of dicking around with it to make it do what you want, and even then what you end up with is some sort of cobbled together nightmare.

Since you've brought up the glass suppliers as an example, let's take a look at how they package their glass to the distributors.

Glass Alchemy does a wonderful job of packaging their glass in nicely and evenly cut rods, all within a nominal length tolerance, and their weights per package are very consistent.

Northstar on the other hand has random length rods, that can vary from 15" up to just over 20", and all packaged together in a mishmash. There is no consistency in their weights per package, I've seen a 2" package weight 1 pound 12 ounces and others 2 pounds 4 ounces.

It's easy to sell GA glass by the rod, it isn't quite so easy to sell NS that way.

It works in grocery stores and auto parts stores and hardware stores because their suppliers provide a consistent product well labelled ALL THE TIME. A box of 100 6-32 nuts is always going to have 100 nuts in it. That makes it easy to sell.

How many rods of GA in a two pound bundle? How many rods of NS in a two pound bundle?

Others have addressed the shipping issues, I certainly echo those thoughts myself. I've been the recipient of cases of glass with smashed ends -- in fact I've got a whole case of 25.4 x 4.0 tubes that I have to sell essentially as scrap, each tube in the box has at least 1 inch on each end crushed and smashed, because company "A" didn't take proper care to protect it on the pallet it was shipped on. It probably got clipped by a passing forklift, and the damage wasn't visible until I opened the case. Pisses me off no end, but there's nothing I can do about it because the damage wasn't visible.

[dudleybivens]

it IS that easy mike. if you don't want to deal with by the rod, DON'T SELL IT THAT WAY, if you don't want to have to count it by hand. all you business owners are too set in your ways because of the way things used to be. it's about time you hear more from customers just getting into this industry. besides isn't the glass industry about constantly evolving? why the hell can't the suppliers catch up with the rest of the commerce world.

if you're having lag times with your servers, that's something to take up with your hosting services. if they don't have a 99.9999 uptime guarantee, take your money elsewhere.

you're picking small computer related problems and trying to turn them into a reason to not have automated inventory. don't like your accounting software? change it. those small computer issues are easily fixable and preventable in the first place.

all we're hearing from suppliers here is why things have to be the way they are. BS. get with the program and stop making excuses.

if you don't like the way GA or NS comes to you and it makes it harder to resell, do something about it.

as far as shipping goes, Mike I'm not sure how your statement relates to us not agreeing with being charged shipping amounts completely different from the estimates on suppliers websites. you guys have been doing this for a while, right? kind of hard to imagine you wouldn't be able to ball park a shipping estimate immediately after seeing an order.

I understand how you guys got to this point, everyone would much rather deal in person or over the phone, not through a computer box. these problems come from not talking to a person while placing your order, but if you businesses would rather have it this way, then you shouldn't be able to order product from your site, you should make each customer call.

you know how much it costs to ship tubes, you know how much it costs to ship rods, why is it so hard to figure out? dimension, weight, # of packages, distance, what other variables are there? all of this can be written into your e-commerce software. again, if you can't do it yourself, hire someone to, the cost will repay itself.

if you really really have a problem estimating shipping, overestimate. customers would love to get $20 back from shipping they thought was a little pricey as opposed to an extra $20 being added on they didn't see coming and makes them wish they would have ordered from a different company.

I've only recently started, but I've placed orders with all (most, maybe not all) the big suppliers out there, only 2 have gotten repeat business from me. generations and mountainglass

[Mike_Aurelius]

it IS that easy mike. if you don't want to deal with by the rod, DON'T SELL IT THAT WAY, if you don't want to have to count it by hand. all you business owners are too set in your ways because of the way things used to be. it's about time you hear more from customers just getting into this industry. besides isn't the glass industry about constantly evolving? why the hell can't the suppliers catch up with the rest of the commerce world.

Tell that to the 20 or 30 customers I have walk in each day. I'm sure they'd love to hear it -- in fact, they'd all go elsewhere. I sell by the rod because it is convenient for the CUSTOMER.



you're picking small computer related problems and trying to turn them into a reason to not have automated inventory. don't like your accounting software? change it. those small computer issues are easily fixable and preventable in the first place.

I've got a huge investment in my accounting software, something that few other companies have. Why? Because my schooling and background is in accounting. I know what it takes to run a business with good computer software. Quickbooks aint' gonna cut it. My comments were directed to those think Quickbooks will do what they need.


all we're hearing from suppliers here is why things have to be the way they are. BS. get with the program and stop making excuses.

LMAO -- remember the old Indian saying "walk a mile in our moccasins before you start complaining".



if you don't like the way GA or NS comes to you and it makes it harder to resell, do something about it.

Want to see the e-mails I've sent to NS complaining about the rods? I've sent probably 20 or 25. I get "we will look into it" and nothing ever changes.


as far as shipping goes, Mike I'm not sure how your statement relates to us not agreeing with being charged shipping amounts completely different from the estimates on suppliers websites. you guys have been doing this for a while, right? kind of hard to imagine you wouldn't be able to ball park a shipping estimate immediately after seeing an order.

It does and it doesn't. I get charged varing amounts as well when I bring in large shipments, and it just isn't from "company A" or "company Z". It is an endemic problem with ALL shipping companies. The days of fixed shipping costs are long gone. There are surcharges upon fuel costs upon bullshit insurance payments. EVERYONE is getting ripped off, not just the consumer.

The estimates on a website are just that, estimates. If you want to pay your own freight, ask the distributor to ship it to you FOB Origin, Freight Collect, and pay the freight bill yourself.


I understand how you guys got to this point, everyone would much rather deal in person or over the phone, not through a computer box. these problems come from not talking to a person while placing your order, but if you businesses would rather have it this way, then you shouldn't be able to order product from your site, you should make each customer call.

And you'd be wrong. I spend literally 2-3 hours PER DAY on the phone talking to customers, and then on top of that comes the e-mails back and forth. This isn't an issue about e-mail versus telepone calls.


you know how much it costs to ship tubes, you know how much it costs to ship rods, why is it so hard to figure out? dimension, weight, # of packages, distance, what other variables are there? all of this can be written into your e-commerce software. again, if you can't do it yourself, hire someone to, the cost will repay itself.

And the freight companies change their fees about everyother week as the cost of fuel changes. They don't even have fixed rates any longer. Most of the time, the freight companies don't even send out notices of increases mainly because by the time they do, the previous increase is already changed.

I totally understand the frustration -- and believe me, I'll be Kristian and all the others do as well, but you also have to remember that we are at the mercy, as much as you are, of the shipping companies. They control what gets shipped where and for how much. They have gotten so big that they've become 500 pound gorillas.

[menty666]

Keep in mind, some of the places that sell by the rod do so for a reason, not just for kicks. Say you have a class in a studio next door to you that you're their supplier. Their students may be learning or don't know much about a color and don't want to drop 20.00 on a 1/4 pound of color. To them, it makes more sens to buy a rod of Onyx and a rod of Cherry and a rod of...

There are plenty of folks that cross over from soft glass into boro and don't know what colors they want, how they work, etc. So they want to try a single rod or two of something and they throw it on as part of their order. In Mike's case, the new boro worker is buying upgraded glasses but doesn't have boro to melt. So they get a couple of sticks to have tossed in the box and a quarter pound of clear, because everyone need's clear.

Or maybe someone doesn't want to drop 50.00 on a pound of new color, but wants to experiment. They aren't blessed to be on the freebie testing list, but they don't mind dropping a few bucks on a rod of Fool's Gold, for example, while ordering a couple pounds of staple colors.

Folks don't sell rods because they like buck and fiving themselves to death, it's a response to customer demand or need. Mike, again just as an example, is in a particular position where he and Phillips are THE go to suppliers for eyeware. There are distributors, but if you want to buy Aura's from the source, you call Mike. That puts him in a position where he's dealing with a lot of inexperienced workers in addition to folks who've been at the flame for years and buy in 10# bundles.

I do agree that slapping the color makers into buying rulers might be a good idea. To their credit they're working on consistency, but sheesh....put two lines on the floor and cut. :)

[JLF]

Mike you make a lot of sense, and I'm sure there are plenty of hurdles to jump before getting a new system up and running smoothly.


Not everyone buys by the pound. Some folks buy by the rod. That has to be weighed. By hand.

Right. That doesn't change. If you are the company and you receive a new shipment of glass (lets say it's 31.534 lbs of uneven lengths of glass) the store scans the barcode for the item, enters a +31.534 into inventory. A customer wants to purchase 1 rod. You weigh the rod and it's 0.034 lbs. You scan the barcode for the item, enter a -0.034 into inventory. You still have 31.5 lbs of inventory left.

It works just as easy if someone buys 5lbs of the glass. The glass isn't cut even for weight, so the same as it is done today you weigh it out. So say it comes to 4.763lbs, then you subtract that from inventory.

You can't account for shoddy length tolerances in all manufactures glass, but that is the same way it has always been. It still works with the barcode system or any inventory system. If a customer wants 2 lbs of color and you only have 1.567 lbs to sell you inform them that is all that is in inventory.


Then, there is the software issue. Not all company accounting software is created equal. Sometimes it takes a great deal of dicking around with it to make it do what you want, and even then what you end up with is some sort of cobbled together nightmare.

Yes. I'm talking about companies overhauling their websites with an updated platform. At some point a company is faced with the decision that they need to upgrade. Might as well do it right. I agree with you, no one wants a system composed of cobbled together parts. Shoddy planning and poor work arounds cause probelms in all of life.


Not every retailer has their webserver in the same room as their company data server. I know I don't!!

This is a very common issue. Thankfully wireless and wired networking is easy to install and have all of your computers communicating successfully.

Also back when I was in college the senior CS team that won during my freshman year and had their software adopted by the client developed an entirely web based platform. That way it didn't matter where or which computer the company's employees used, it was accessable and available. Servers and Clients could be in different rooms, buildings, states, etc...


Tying the brick and mortar inventory database to the on-line database sounds real good too, until you get into lag times, on-line server issues etc etc ad nauseum

These are the same issues which can happen now, but I hardly see once and a while someone getting a "Sorry we had a server issue, we don't have that in stock" letter because of a server fault or lag times, rather than multiple people each week getting the same letters because of poor inventory management on the old system.

Example:
New System during a problem - Online orders may not be able to be processed because someone in store may purchase all available items while the online problem is occuring.

Old System during a problem OR during normal opperations - Online orders may not be able to be processed because someone in store may purchase all available items, Inventory may not be updated and online purchases which suffer no problems can't be filled because of poor inventory management.

[JLF]

It would be nice if this would stay civil. It benefits everyone to have mild, toned down constructive dialog. Complaints and Compliments alike.

[Mike_Aurelius]

It would be nice if this would stay civil. It benefits everyone to have mild, toned down constructive dialog. Complaints and Compliments alike.

Yep. I'm enjoying this discussion.

Thanks all to staying on the high road...

On the barcoding issue -- a couple of very random thoughts, take them for what they are worth...

For ordinary products (for example, graphite paddles), barcoding works very **VERY** good. It's an easy way to track inventory, count product, sell product.

When it comes to bulk items such as glass, it runs into a huge problem. You can't (well, you COULD, but it isn't a rational decision IMO) label every rod. At this point, you go to a manual process. (We tag each rod with an inventory number to identify mfgr, color and their number, but we don't weigh it.)

At "checkout", the glass has to be sorted and weighed (assuming that the customer has pulled rods at random), then keyed into the computer. This takes a certain amount of time and on a busy system on a busy day (for example Fridays), there can quite easily be up to a 1 hour delay in updating the system and in the meantime, you've had 15 people on-line ordering the exact same colors! Pulling bulk orders can take quite awhile too (for example phone orders to be picked up). Do you key in each line item as you pull it or do you key the entire order at once? Either way, there is a chance that someone is going to get "stiffed".

Now, where it gets dicey is for example NorthStar (and I'm picking them only because of their past track record of short poundage on bundles not for any other reason, Abe and I get along pretty well [although perhaps not so well after this :twitch:]) -- if the glass coming in wasn't weighed and the stock room receiver just keyed in the nominal 2 pound weight...and the bundle was half a pound short,...you can see the problem I hope.

And then there are the butterfingered employees who let a rod or two slip from their fingers and hit the floor and don't bother to key it in to the computer as "breakage". Or the glass that arrives broken but was keyed in as salable merchandise.

Or the times when you get a bad batch of glass and you've already accepted orders for it...

These are just happenstances that have occured at my store, I'm sure Kris and the others have had these and more.

Honestly? I think we are doing pretty damn good all things considered.

If you ever want to get an eyeful of how a huge glass merchandising operation works, next time you are out in the Seattle area, stop by Frantz's place and ask Mikey for a tour of the warehouse...

It would be wonderful if all the suppliers could be WalMarts and keep 100 pounds of each color in stock ready to pull, but the realities of the industry are such that it is just not possible.

And how do you ensure that you have plenty of inventory on hand? What happens when you get a run on a certain color or six? Forecasting only goes so far and you usually get burned. If a popular teacher/designer all of a sudden discovers a new way of using a color, you can bet 300 people are going to jump on the bandwagon and all of a sudden no one has those particular colors. I've seen it happen time and again.

Well, that's enough of a brain dump for now...

[Bglass]

id have to completely agree with jlf.

seeing as how my mom makes and designs web site, some of which were award winning, she also works for a huge software company here in Vancouver. their main goal and service is to design software and a systems for companies to literally run. some of which are gas stations and huge oil companies. one client may have twenty individual gas stations, and they do. those twenty stations are all linked and networked to one control hub for that one client. my moms work has hundreds of clients and a program or software is designed around the client for their business needs. they have systems for telling a client how much gas is at one station, how much came out of one pump per hour, min etc. will tell them how much liquid wight is there, if those companies have to ship or freight oil products like they do to job sites and stations then their is formulas and such that the computer or person running it can safely make an estimate of what ever they need to do. and on top of that if one business like i was saying has twenty stations with a min of six pumps per station thats 120 pumps all being controlled and monitored on the internet. this stuff along with some of the designs they have going on make a small internet based supplies sites look pre-school.

they have way bigger problems than a rod of color not weighing or a pound being under, and they figure them out by the end of the day or week and make a way or figure out another way to make the clients site or network run more smoothly. this happens every day and i guarantee shes dealing with a small time company or a big one with problems such as right now. problems that dwarf that of a small internet buis. what im trying to say is that there is people who do this everyday and its as easy as what jlf is saying.

what im saying is this is the digital age, it shouldn't be about just running your supply based buis, its about making it better, easier and quicker. diversifying. if your not im sorry you dont have much chance in making it doing what ever your doing. this is a new era and we all have to evolve and get ready for something way bigger than what we've know. a main goal of a supplier should be to diversify and completely make their clients accounts or customers 100 % fully satisfied.

im sorry but i completely look over sites that are poorly designed and ran. will never go back or order until they get their game up. but at the same time another bis could have one me over in that time. and with very little at that.
this age of internet and sales is based of a different generation and way of thinking. i can honestly say if i could have it easier to buy products online from glass suppliers i would take my thousands a year in purchases and gladly do it. lucklily i live in portland and basically every company is arround me. i hate back orders and getting ran around. i hate getting over charged and i hate not being able to neatly and easily order something online, when a lot of online business that arnt glass related have their stuff together.

online and internet based sales and business are not rocket science, it was created and is being created and unfolded by people like you and me with the will for something more. its kinda like shit or get off the pot. if you dont diversify or try to make customers happy they will leave and never come back.

one skate magazine i know of completely switched to the media source called the internet fully the 1st of this month. they have more reach on fan base, customers and readers this way. they can offer more and have more impacting issue because of it. slap magazine, they no whats up.

the same for newspaper companies. completely taking their publication to the internet. making it easier to find what you want to read. i guess this one new paper in Houston did just that, they were getting more hits on the website than they had subscribers and sales. so common knowledge, switch it over.
they reduced the amount of paper they used, 160 tons a day approx for a fricken news paper company. now they are saving more money and actually helping out.

when time is money, and money equals time, i would rather use a bar code system if it meant saving hours of time updating, searching through invoices and all that other jargon.

come to think of it my dad uses a simple bar code system in his warehouse.
in front of his employees is products on a wall. depending on order certain products need to be pulled and boxed ready for shipping. my dad made it a game in a way. each employee on the line has a electronic wrist band that make a product beep and a light light up on the product. there is a screen that reads a number. you pull that number and hit the button on your wrist then another light lights somewhere and you pull that. at the end of the day the employee can go and see how much he pulled that day and how fast. now my dad make incentives for good work. getting off early or bonuses for good pulling. he created a way with stupid bar codes to control his employees into working good and he also can now take randoms who cant speak English well, like the ton of Russians here. its almost completely unrelated to this topic but at the same time its not. my dad seen a problem at work, new it needed to be fixed so he created a way around what was old. now his warehouse has record sales and orders out of 10 in the nation of the same company.

its that easy, especially when its peoples jobs to do exactly what jlf is saying, and he knows, me coming from a family of tech heads were even my brother is some crazy IT guy, i know it can be done and those companies that follow through and grow will benefit from the potential of sales and maybe even publicity, because its sometime not about the sales, it could be about the hits and views to a site, such as this one or glass pipes. its crazy when you can make money just off people clicking on your site and opening it up.

its a crazy digital age and soon you all will be paying for goods by pointing your cell phone at a cash register, or walking up to a marijuana vending machine in a mall in California(no shit).

all i can say about the shipping is if your customer is at stake because of shipping, as a business eat it. i dont make a lot of money, but i in the past have sent out over ten packages that have cost me 100 or more out of my pocket. not including material. i always send my packages next day or two day, and often i throw in extra glass or a headpiece for good sales. it always works and keeps people coming back happy as ever. but bitching that you have to put more time into packaging such as 3 to five extra minutes to put another box in or whatever is ridiculous. for one thing you made that your JOB!!! and solely you should be committed to it and make it your ambition to not let a customer down or just to maybe impress a customer. it says a lot about some one no matter how you look at it. you should never have to expect something and you should always cater and go head over heels for your business if that business is something you love and have a passion for. which as far as glass buis goes i think we all have a passion for that, now it just sounds like there has to be some who cares a little more. by the way you can go onto craigs list and get your hole car stocked with peanuts and bubble wrap for free or at the most nothing to what full new cost would be.

to tell you the truth my dads warehouse throws away/recycle huge boxes small boxes whatever. i havnt paid for a box since i started 6 years ago, whether it was from him or just about any company. ive pulled them from napa wherever. ive even scored peanuts and bubble wrap. but if your gonna have a returning customer and make money further down the road who cares, especially if it means more clients trough word of mouth.
so im done with my rant, but i dont mean to be a dick or anything i just want to say it how i believe it is and should be. every bodies entitled to opinion.
so for the record ive ordered from every online supplies store their is. every one has their hiccups but from my experiences trevs glass!!! all the way, they will do what no other supplies store does and that is completely go out of their way.

to save on shipping for my buddies phantom just the other day the owner met my buddie half way!!! gave him a pound of color and two 10 dollar samples of dichro!!! they are two big thumbs up!!!!!

[Bglass]

anyways after reading my post i get off topic a lot but come back, and my tone always seems angry but im a happy person. i just always tries to get my point across so it seems angry. just to say i too am happy that we at least have some people to care about this subject and talk respectively and in turn hopes are up and maybe we will soon see a better way to buy supplies for our industry. big thanks to mike A. for taking the time to become a civil part of the topic as well as generations, definetly looks good on their part even if they have had hiccups in the past for some people or me. peace.

[JLF]

Mike-

Now we're getting somewhere!

So, based on your theory, every product sold by glass websites (that isn't glass) would benefit VERY well by the use of a barcode system.

Now lets look back at the bulk of the matter.. the glass.

You mention labling each rod of glass. I can see that being a nightmare and also not cost/time effective. However Wale actually does this. I'm not sure how their inventory system works (I should ask Dan) but everything you order from them has a numbered sticker. They usually only sell in increments of 1/4 lb at the smallest. Aside from borostix (crazy seeing all the stickers on each of them!). Wale does a good job, but I've had placed orders "Out of Stock" with them too.


At "checkout", the glass has to be sorted and weighed (assuming that the customer has pulled rods at random), then keyed into the computer. This takes a certain amount of time and on a busy system on a busy day (for example Fridays), there can quite easily be up to a 1 hour delay in updating the system and in the meantime, you've had 15 people on-line ordering the exact same colors! Pulling bulk orders can take quite awhile too (for example phone orders to be picked up). Do you key in each line item as you pull it or do you key the entire order at once? Either way, there is a chance that someone is going to get "stiffed".

I'm trying to envision this scenario, and I can see what you mean by a delay with dealing with a customer(s) who has selected a pile of single rods. It would take time weighing each rod and identifying the color/manufacturer then scanning the bar code from your book of codes (or shelf). But this would take the same ammount of time, if not less than I assume your current system works with doing everything the same as mentioned above, but writing out each item rather than scanning the code.

Either way you still wind up with a problem of the online customer needing an "Out of Stock" call/note/whatever sent to them.

EXCEPT: With the barcode system and inventory, only the customers that exhaust an item from your inventory risk the possibility of getting an "Out of Stock" notice. (Unless a customer in store is buying the majority of your inventory.)

Under the old system under the same conditions, If you have say 15 people online ordering the same item, that you can't supply, you now have 15 unhappy people that need to be contacted. There is no limit to how many people can order an out of stock item until you manually remove the item for sale on your site.

Example:

You have 35 lbs of Bluemoon in stock.

Old system: During the hour of extremely heavy orders you are dealing with a customer, you have online orders coming in. Lets say 15 of the online orders want Bluemoon 3lbs each. If you have any bluemoon currently in stock the website displays it for sale. That's 15 people that order it, their combined total of blue moon is 45lbs. A customer in your store at the same time is purchasing 2lb of blue moon.

1) Subtract 2lbs (customer in store) from the 35lbs = 33lbs available to online purchasers.
2) 11 Customers that order online get their shipment
3) 4 Customers have to be called/mailed/whatever that their items are "Out of Stock"

New System: Same scenario

1) Only 11 online orders go through, the 12th customer is told only 2lbs are left, he purchases them.
2) The remaining 3 customers are told instantly before even clicking "add to cart" there is no bluemoon in stock.
3) 2lbs of glass get sold to the in store customer.
4) The 12th online customer needs to be contacted about "Out of Stock" for his item

Old system = 4 unhappy customers
New system = 1 unhappy customer

it's not perfect, but that is a 75% less work on your end dealing with unhappy customers that can't get their order filled

(someone please check my math and logic)


-- if the glass coming in wasn't weighed and the stock room receiver just keyed in the nominal 2 pound weight...and the bundle was half a pound short,...you can see the problem I hope.

And then there are the butterfingered employees who let a rod or two slip from their fingers and hit the floor and don't bother to key it in to the computer as "breakage". Or the glass that arrives broken but was keyed in as salable merchandise.

Or the times when you get a bad batch of glass and you've already accepted orders for it...

The problem I see is that the employee is inproperly handling the receiving of inventory.

Inventory should be weighed before entered as inventory. Old OR new system you wouldn't have an accurate inventory if you just wrote down the nominal weight.

Same with butterfingered employees, if they are breaking merchandise, that affects your Old AND New style of inventory.

A bad batch of glass, falls into the same category, you have to deal with it in either situation. You can't avoid bad batches.

[Glassroots]

As far as inventory and product on stock. Barcodes are great.

In-house inventory SHOULD be directly tied into the computer which should be tied to the website. Meaning the website and the store should share the same database on inventory.

Each shelf of product should have a barcode taped to the shelf below it. Each time inventory is added or subtracted, the barcode on the shelf is scanned and the ammount added or subtracted is manually typed into the computer. All hassles then of transferring sales to a website at the end of the night are eliminated. (Ex. 25lbs of NS-01 come in, barcode scanned on shelf +25 entered to computer, Customer comes in purchase 2lbs, barcode scanned -2 entered to computer)

Inventory is then maintained in real time for the shop owner, the in-store customers, and the customers out on the world wide web. At the end of the night piles of sheets aren't sorted through, the work is already done.

Saves the shop time, confusion, and money in the long run. Keeps customers HAPPY and up to date on what they CAN purchase.

Before shop owners destroy this idea with "The cost of that is too great", "We aren't tech geeks", etc...

The cost should not be that great. You can print the barcodes (and only one per shelf) you can purchase a barcode scanner for realtively cheap, the updates to your software and website are a necessary expense in the long run.

If you can't do this now, ok, but this should be what you are striving for.

If you think the cost is too great to implement a professional system like this, go out to your local state university and schedule an apointment with a senior level Computer Science professor. I'm positive CS students final projects are creating software for small companies that solves their problems. Approach the professor and school with your current business needs and issues. You might have the chance of getting your software customized and produced free by students that are competing against each other for the highest grade, which is determined by meeting a dead line, and meeting the client's needs to the fullest.

Just some food for thought...

Sounds like you've got some great ideas to start your own glass distribution business.

[richsantaclaus]

Not sure this goes here BUT I wanted to make a small order ($20) at Arrow Springs. The shipping - they wanted $20!!!!! Stupid in my opinion so I just closed the site and will go without for now. Just think, IF 100 people looking for small orders closed the site too, Arrow Springs loses $2000 for the HIGH shipping cost!

My order, 1 pound of soft glass. I'll get it somewhere else when I am there and wait for now.

[Abe Fleishman]

Mike I am not mad at you at all. Nancy and I have not got any email from you at least in the last 2 and a half years. If we shipped anyone short weights we would take care of them NO questions asked.
Abe

[Mike_Aurelius]

Thanks Abe -- the e-mails were before your time...

But since you are reading this -- what the heck is up with the random lengths? Are you guys really snipping rods to get exact weight or what?

Why can GA do it but NS can't?

[Mike_Aurelius]

Mike-

Now we're getting somewhere!

<snipped for clarity>

The problem I see is that the employee is inproperly handling the receiving of inventory.

Inventory should be weighed before entered as inventory. Old OR new system you wouldn't have an accurate inventory if you just wrote down the nominal weight.

Same with butterfingered employees, if they are breaking merchandise, that affects your Old AND New style of inventory.

A bad batch of glass, falls into the same category, you have to deal with it in either situation. You can't avoid bad batches.

You can't control employees. You deal with that situation as best you can...either through training, attrition, or outright dismissal and starting over. That being said, "shrinkage" is a fact of life that can't be controlled.

One other issue that is very critical is the database itself...I use Open Systems Traverse software, and I'd **NEVER** put the database in front of a firewall. Traverse uses a single database with multiple tables to store its data -- which means not only is the inventory data in there, but payroll, general ledger, AND customer credit card information.

Yes, there are other software systems available, but Traverse fit my particular needs at the time (and still 99%) does.

In the example written above regarding the oil business -- well, shit man, they've got tons of money to throw away on software. We are talking retail here and the glass business. None of us is rolling in cash, in fact I'd guess because of the recession/depression we are in, most of us are working week to week or month to month. I wish I had $10M to throw at some custom written website software!! For the most part, all of us have far better things to do with our incomes, like payroll for the employees, food on the table, medicines and doctor bills....

I ain't sayin', I'm just sayin'...

[dudleybivens]

... and customers would like to know exactly how much their credit card/paypal account will be charged when they order a product from a website.

[sunray]

Been wondering about that too.. It was nice before to get the same length of all rods in firsts.


Thanks Abe -- the e-mails were before your time...

But since you are reading this -- what the heck is up with the random lengths? Are you guys really snipping rods to get exact weight or what?

Why can GA do it but NS can't?

[michaeL25]

I think the main point is missed. Setting expectations is everything. Your business may not be able to justify the cost of barcoding or have staff which is capable of perfect shipments, but it's really easy to state that on your site so that your customers don't get sand in their clam when something happens.

This is also a free market economy. It's up to you to make the right decision as to who to buy from. I generally stick with the company which has the most value to me, but i also understand that this market doesn't demand perfect order processing. As an example, I left Aura (Mike) two voicemails last week to place an order. I did not get a call back within 48 hours and decided to place an order with someone else for some philips glasses. I would have liked to try some Auras, but I'm not mad that Mike didn't return my call, I simply placed my order elsewhere.

[Mike_Aurelius]

<snipped>

As an example, I left Aura (Mike) two voicemails last week to place an order. I did not get a call back within 48 hours and decided to place an order with someone else for some philips glasses. I would have liked to try some Auras, but I'm not mad that Mike didn't return my call, I simply placed my order elsewhere.

And that's going to happen, as much as I regret it.

Sorry, Michael!

[Abe Fleishman]

For the last 17 years NS has offered our product at a very good price and have always told customers about the way we cull the glass. Our standard is 15 inch to 20inch lond rods the shorter rods are due to a small stone that got cut out or rods that broke in the process. We try our best to insure good glass and we are not perfect but we try. We could raise the price of our glass and insure same lenths and rods size but right now we feel the market needs good prices for now. We pride our selfs with hand pulled rods and will soon have some pulling machines and then we will see a difference. I have had meetings with our staff about this issues and we are working to help fix some of the problems. Our color glass and reformulation process is our first priority right now. I like all the voices that are out there talking about glass, WE ARE LISTNING. I have a few questions about why it is such a big deal to the artist that the rods are the same lenth, you are going to melt it anyway. I can see if someone is doing stickstack and a few other applacations but most people just melt and go. From a distributors stand point I uderstand that it might be hard to sell different size rods. We also need to educate the artist that this is the way we sell our glass and i feel they will understand, I insure we are working on this at all times. I will not get back to you Mike but let it be known that I care about this industry and have lots invested in heart and soul, so please give us time there are a lot of fires that need to be put out and this fire is on one of my top list. Thanks for the talk
Peace Abe

[mikejones]

It is not their job to worry about if you have the extra 5 bucks in your account (for an out sourced service) on a $80 order that their most likely making $35 profit off of (if their lucky).

But if they are doing 30 small orders a day, this adds up and they should be greatful. If I order something small, and I get screwed around, no way am I dropping 3k next month with them.

[jr23]

I like each color company for what they are For those of you that want northstar to become GA. I really dislike that! I like some odds and seconds for some things and you don't get them at GA its all first or wait once a year to pick up the stuff at the wloc sale. If I did a lot of stick stacks then I might have a grip but I use solid color a lot these days and the deals from northstar make that possible. I can take odds and make solid color section no clear. IF I buy 50-60 dollar a pound stuff I end up clear coating or what not. If northstar had no odds or seconds I would be bummed out for sure! Thanks Abe Plus NS cads rock the block any size any length

[JLF]

Just to clarify and swing the conversation back to the main issue of this topic.

When referring to glass supply companies, I am talking about shops selling glass, tools, and other materials to consumers, i.e. US.

No beef with the glass manufacturers that supply the shops.

[somberbear]

so you have all your glass products bar coded, scanned , and the shipping weight calculated along the guide lines of UPS, Fedex , and usps? with the amount of packing material calculated in? even custom stuff that youll only make or offer once? along with invoicing , tracting emails? how about good pictures of your product as well? how much time do you have how much of the week does that take? do you have to hire staff for that? if so how much do you pay them and factor that into your over head? also how do you do your taxes , inventory, local sales tax, international sales? Have you looked into the laws. how about a deal on insurance do you have to cover liability , or can you forgo that?, how about loan paper work do you fill those out and maintain your over head reports and sales figures? how about local town and there codes? do you have to keep watching to see what there ordinaces are and zoning? how about inspections? how about fire code? what other contracted services do you have to manage? water , trash , fuel , oxy , power? do you have to carry liability on your products? how about attorney and accoutants? do you keep your books heavy enough for slow months to be able to carry your business? how about web pages, professionaly done or do you keep cost down to your custies by doing that in house? do you also answer the phone during business hours? how long of hours to you keep for your brick and mortar location? how about ware housing? how about losses due to shipping how are those handled do you just eat the loss?

just asking.... not trying to be a dick about it..... but thats what a small business has to worry about... i know i do too.. oh and one more

do you have time left over for yourself?

there are suppliers that take care of me and i show my appriecation back with business..

[Mac Maestro]

Another story of bitterness:
I just ordered a tool from a distributor and got a confirmation reply.

They call me later and tell me that the tool I ordered is out of stock. Not only is it out of stock, but the tool maker has DIED (rip) and no one has been found to make the tools in his place. So why are these tools still on the website? Shady business. If you don't have it, don't accept my order for it!!

[Flux]

Yeah, company A... ordered various colors, one was 5lbs of large clear rod, arrived 5lbs of amber transparent 7mm. Okay, this is normal for them, some screwup every other time. Call, they'll replace and pay shipping. A few days later they call and tell me they're out of stock of the large clear rod and might get it Friday. Friday rolls around, didn't come in with their order, maybe next Friday or maybe refund my $ then if they don't get it. Good thing a time schedule isn't important in company A land. I think this last one will be my final order with them.

[murf]

And that's , as much as I regret it.

Sorry, Michael!

Mike you give some great advice on health and some industry standards, maybe even business practices. But doesn't success start with answering the phone or responding to emails. this "going to happen" solution doesnt inspire me to place an order with a company that doesn't respond. I know this first hand. I think rather than investing in the state of art software , you might invest your money else where. hope you dont take this the wrong way. you need to find a solution, you sell some good products.

[p.j.]

to find out the true price before it is shipped you must tell them to call you before they ship it. sometimes things get backordered from the place they get it from, or if there is a sale somewhere chances are you won't be the only one ordrering...

each piece of color is hand pulled and therefore not uniform. they always give an estimated rods per pound, but it is never exact. you should tell whatever company you order from that you want to receive the bulk discount, but that means usually 10# of color or in the case of tubing you must order cases..... the best way to get cases is by freight but then you need to buy 10 cases at a time.

websites may be easy to order from but they are just really online catalogs for reference.

KT at generations updates his page daily during the sales, but that doesn't mean that one of the other clients didn't beat you to that product. each order is filled in the order received.

I find that bigger companies carry more of each product but customer service sometimes is not as good, i live in ri and for 10 years bought my color from Frantz Art Glass,because of the price structure, then switched to generations because Kristian will meet those prices.

glass is half the price now than when i started, you really have to stay on top of the newest products.

if at all possible, you should bundle your glass orders with other blowers so you can buy the most and get the best pricing and shipping combos.

i buy tubing with at least 1 or 2 other blowers so we can get 10-20 cases at a time and only have to order once oe twice a year.
UST glass has shipping from pa and ca so it be cheaper to ship. they ship usually the next day and everthing is usually in stock.

Adam at UST will even charge us separately on the bundled orders....

good luck

[Mike_Aurelius]

Mike you give some great advice on health and some industry standards, maybe even business practices. But doesn't success start with answering the phone or responding to emails. this "going to happen" solution doesnt inspire me to place an order with a company that doesn't respond. I know this first hand. I think rather than investing in the state of art software , you might invest your money else where. hope you dont take this the wrong way. you need to find a solution, you sell some good products.

That's a good point, Murph. There are times when it is impossible to answer the phone. That's why we have voice mail. Leave a message, someone will call you back (usually me).

I've got one person who answers the phone, answers questions, takes orders, inspects product, packages product, ships product, goes to the bathroom, takes cigarette breaks, and in general works her ass off, but she still can't be available every time the phone rings.

Our goal is to return all calls within a 24 hour time period. Right now, that's the best we can do.

I can guarantee that e-mails are answered much faster. Phone calls usually end up with us leaving a message and starting a round of phone tag.

[menty666]

I can guarantee that e-mails are answered much faster. Phone calls usually end up with us leaving a message and starting a round of phone tag.

HA, I knew my hatred of talking on the phone wasn't just my anti-social tendencies. It's actually good business practice :)

Honestly...I'd rather handle stuff over email, but that's me, and it leaves a paper trail.