transition from soft glass to boro?

[naughty pirate wench]

Hi All:

I'm hoping for a little information here - I've been working soft glass for about a year and a half, I'm running a Minor on natural gas and an oxycon. I'm wanting to play with the tiny bit of boro that arrived yesterday (I've got a half-pound of Kimax 4mm rod and a quarter pound of NS Amber Purple...see? I HAVE been paying attention to that top 10 thread, LOL).

I've got my AUR92 goggles, and my DH's shade 5 welding goggles - if I throw the welding goggles on over the AUR92's, is that considered adequate eye protection? (I've got a couple of halogen spotlights for the torch bench lighting.)

I realize I'll have to re-program the kiln to anneal boro instead of soft glass - I can look that up, no problem, but is there anything else I need to know before I start working with the boro? Like, do I need to crank up the flame on my torch? (I really don't want to melt my torch, though.) Are there any "surprises" waiting for me? I'm just planning to make beads initially.

Thanks very much for any help/hand-holding/entertainingly funny snarky comments,
Chris in OlyWA

[KahunaGlassArt]

once you start playing with it you'll see that boro takes quite a bit longer and its not soupy like soft.
I only use regular Dydiniums for boro, but for best protection you should have the green shaded clips/glasses. not sure what the AUR92's are like, so i cant help you there.

and for your kiln garage at about 1050, instead of 950 (or whatever you have it at) for soft.

and the 4mm is pretty mini rod. what are you planning on making? if you're wanting to make implosion(compression) stuff id recomend 12mm (that's what I use)

hope i helped!

[HiAltitude]

If you've been doing soft glass for awhile, it's reasonable to assume that you have adequate ventilation, etc. Never skimp on safety.

I started in soft glass too. It's pretty easy to switch back and forth, you just have to keep the glass separate. And it's nice to be able to go back to a small torch and oxycon when you run out of tanked.

You probably already know, boro is less shocky than soft glass, so that's the nice kind of surprise. The boro color palette is different. The biggest problem I had at first is that the glass is stiffer and a small torch makes it hard to heat much glass at one time. That's a problem if you are used to making your own canes. Doesn't mean you can't make canes with a minor burner, just think small because the working time out of the flame is shorter than soft glass. Whatever you do, don't push hard on the glass trying to get it to go on faster, because it will just end up in your hand (been there, done that).

You can make small boro marbles with a minor burner, if you are patient. My first 1" air trap boro marbles took about an hour on a minor burner. That's about how long it takes me to do many types of soft glass beads, so it's not a big deal.

But I pretty quickly wanted to more up to a bigger torch. More heat definitely makes life easier. It's like having sharp knives in the kitchen -- sharp knives are safer, because a dull knife will make you use too much force, which is harder to control and increases your chance of injury.

[HiAltitude]

Just didymium with boro? :blinky: At least use welder's shade 3 glasses. I switch up to welder's shade 5 when heating large amounts of glass, and my eyes thank me.

[steven p selchow]

Id say if working boro, don't go the other way...but you made a good decision. I didn't like the soupy glass myself, Id rather play with saltwater taffy.

steve

[loydb]

I also did soft glass for the first couple of years. The transition to boro is like magic -- the glass doesn't explode!

I've never looked back, I think you'll enjoy it.

[susheke]

I work both and here is my advice.

When working boro you need to do a lot of shaping in the flame as opposed to out of it. But, be careful you only put the bead in the flame and not the mandrel. The mandrel will burn through pretty quickly. You only need to drop a bead off the mandrel once to know what I mean. Oh and you probably will if you have strong soft glass habits, lol.
Turn up your oxy to it's max and think high oxy ratios. I'm on propane so I even turn down my propane pressure. For me, it helps get more color out of strikers.
If you ever hated encasing in clear with soft glass, try it in boro. The clear melts like butter spreading over the color and you'll be in heaven. Plus it is so crystal clear and scum free you'll wonder why you ever bothered with soft encasing.
Jam those rods right into the flame! No need to bounce the rod in and out to avoid shocking and you also have a much longer work time with your bead out of the flame.
The biggest problem I see you having is the time it takes to work boro on a minor. Be patient and when you fall in love, get a big torch.

[naughty pirate wench]

Reps to all who've posted here - thanks very much to each of you. THIS is the kind of information I was hoping for. :D Y'all ROCK!

Best,
Chris in OlyWA

[Flux]

Its funny people are saying soft glass on the torch is soupy, I used to think that too when I worked a lot of boro. Since I've been working soft glass on the torch daily for a few years now its hard to imagine wanting to go back to that glass that takes forever to melt. What's the word, sludgy?

[Shawn T]

From a softy who has now turned to boro, you have been given some great information.
Since you have already gotten some AP, beautiful color btw, try putting white down before the AP, to make the colors come out and play with ease.
A note about white: Be careful about putting down white on a mandrel = cracking issues with some whites. For best results add clear first and than your white. Ask me about the 100 beads I made with white cores on a mandrel. :rant:

Amber Purple is a striking color
Striking is not the same as it is with soft glass, no need to flash your piece in and out of the flame. Boro like to be hot and kept hot for best colors, cool down till the glow is gone before putting it in the back of the flame to strike.
Dotting your beads with clear before encasing or using frit can add a whole new dimensions that doesn't happen with soft glass.

Play and have fun!

[The Lorax]

i really don't like soft glass.

[chayes]

I like melting soft glass whenever i get a chance. I like the huge color palette, the workability, those precision 104 colors. I've learned a lot about boro from just working soft glass. When it comes down to it, its all glass it all melts. Just like the difference between watercolors and oil paints, they're both for painting.

[Johan]

Yeah the soft glass color palette is amazing compared to boro. I hope boro will catch up before my time ends.

Chris Hansen...be careful not to melt the mandrel and over heat the bead release. Boro needs a lot more heat so it can be tricky to avoid engulfing the bead and mandrel in the flame. Take you time. good luck and post many pics so we can see how your doing and maybe help.

[matte eskuche]

boro is pretend glass.

[naughty pirate wench]

I'm so confused...

[steven p selchow]

boro is pretend glass.

he he..my thoughts exactly. I only need 4 seconds to think about the next move.

Boro...for smart people.

[naughty pirate wench]

cross-link to post on first boro stuff:

http://www.talkglass.com/forum/showpost.php?p=408164&postcount=11

peace, and thanks to all,
c

[CripSkillz]

I have seen a lot of girls say there DH is that the dear husband or dick head, or does it change by the hour..

just wondering..

i never tried soft glass so im no help here..

[naughty pirate wench]

Crip -

MY DH Jerry is ALWAYS Darling Husband, Delightful Husband, Divine Husband...you DID see the awesome/amazing torch booth he built me for my birthday last year, did you not? (here's the link: http://www.talkglass.com/forum/showpost.php?p=358369&postcount=20) I'm a lucky lady and I don't ever forget it!:D

peace,
c

[CripSkillz]

Very nice.. and i figured as much..

[richsantaclaus]

Crip - you are too much of a wuss to ask me to make a marble in soft glass when I was there...lol. Of course I'da loved to show off for ya!

[naughty pirate wench]

bump - I got questions that need answers...thanks much!

Pics are on my work thread, posted here: http://www.thegldg.com/forum/showpost.php?p=408164&postcount=11

Random thoughts and questions:

1. Initially it seemed like my torch wasn't hot enough, so I cranked up the O2 some, but it still felt like it took a LONG time to melt the boro. Am I going to melt my torch by turning it up too high? I use natural gas and an O2 concentrator - when I was working the other day, I put my gas where I usually have it (so I have about a 7" natural gas-only flame), then I cranked up the O2 - the flame got really narrow and really hot - I don't think I maxed out the O2 - was kind of trying to not max it out, 'cause I didn't want to melt my torch nozzle/jets thingies.

2. I tried to strike my AP according to Shawn T.'s suggestions - but don't know if I did it right - the first bead with AP and the little pendant with AP wound up with a pale butterscotch color with flashes of iridescent purple - please-oh-please, how do I bring out more of that purple? The last AP bead (encased in clear) turned out a cool toffee color...

3. I did this stuff on 1/8" mandrels - is that the standard for boro beads, or should I use 3/32" mandrels? (For my soft glass stuff, I've been using 1/16" mandrels, and stringers of opaque white and dark ivory for bead cores, and encasing with stringers of Effetre clear, so I'm used to working fast - it helps when you have, uh, attention issues, LOLOL.)

4. When shaping boro IN the flame - what types of tools does everyone use? graphite? brass? magic? I sure don't want to melt my brass shaper thingie... For my soft glass stuff, I've gotten in the habit of relying mostly on heat and gravity to shape my round beads, but I found that difficult to do with the boro - then again, perhaps that's a lack-of-heat issue???

Thanks to all for your encouragement and tips - I really appreciate them!

best,
c

[Shawn T]

Hi Chris,
Nice first boro beads, you should see mine. :twitch:
1. I am not sure about maxing out your minor, I never worked boro with a minor before. I know you need a lot more oxygen and a lot hotter to work boro than soft glass. It can be done well with a minor just takes a bit longer than it does on larger torches.

2. If you got a caramel or butterscotch color out of Amber Purple then you are almost to the pinks and purple of the color. You just needed to strike the glass a bit longer to get it to turn to the colors your wanting. You can also kiln strike those bead if you didn't get pinks/purples.

From what I understand about the AP colors, they go from white/clear, to caramel to pinks/ purples. If you put a bead or pendant into the kiln when you are at the white/clear stage you will get nothing when kiln striking. If you put your bead into the kiln at the caramel stage you will get pinks/purples when kiln striking. If you put your bead in the kiln when pink/purple you will still end up with pink/purple.

To bring out the most colors out of Amber Purple, use white under it. It will really make the colors come out and play, with much ease.
Please remember many of the white colors don't like to touch the mandrel. When I make beads with AP I make a small spacer in clear, then white, then AP, and many times encase afterwards.

3. I use 3/32's for my boro beads. I only use 1/8 when I am making wine stoppers in boro. As a jewelry designer 1/8 mandrels make huge holes for designing around. Watch your bead and make sure to keep your smaller mandrels out of the flame or you will burn right through them.
I use 1/16 like you do for soft glass also.

4. For shaping boro in the flame I use gravity. It takes a lot longer and needs to be much hotter for boro but you can do it. When out of the flame I use my graphite, and brass paddles to nudge the edges straight and even. I quickly use the paddles or I loose too much heat and the glass wont move.


Not sure if you have noticed or not, but bead release is a huge issue with boro beads also. If you don't have a good sturdy bead release it will burn and flake off onto your beads as your working. I would suggest Sludge or Fusion as those seem the most popular amongst boro bead makers. I have tried 4 different bead releases and the only one that is worth it's shit with boro beads for me is Fusion.

[J Howard]

i really like the boro palette- it's not better, just different. it's barely glass though

[naughty pirate wench]

Shawn T - you're an absolute ANGEL! :blowkiss: Thank you!

OK, I'll not crank up the oxy on my Minor until someone tells me I won't melt it.:twitch:

Thanks very much for the really helpful tips on the AP - and I will try to score some white to use under it, on top of a clear core.

I'll try the 3/32's next time then - I kind of feel like part of my problems with keeping everything hot enough was because I was using honkin' big mandrels... Because I design jewelry too, I try to use the skinniest mandrels I can find.

OK, and I won't give up on shaping with gravity - knowing that other folks are shaping with gravity makes me feel like I'm not going in the wrong direction.

My bead release is Fusion - I was hoping it'd work well with the boro, and it has!

Shawn, again, thank you so much for your kind words, encouragement, and suggestions! I really really appreciate it! :clap:

Best,
C

[Goldsmithy]

Many thanks to all who replied...exactly the type of info I was looking for. You guys rock... Smithy

[jane clifton]

Chris,
Set your gas at 5 psi and your oxy at 18 and unless you are killing it you won't melt your torch. I started with beads on a minor with boro and you won't have any problems.
I didn't use as much oxy as it sounds like you are, just a nice neutral flame works fine. More oxy with the AP but a nice hot neutral flame will work. Your flame should be about 10 inches for striking colors. One other thing about the striking, after you let it cool and then go to striking, get it red again in the back of the flame, that will bring out the colors. Let red go away again and repeat process till you get the colors you want.
I haven't tried the white under it though, will have to see how that works.

theres a new bead release out there, Dirty Louies, and I use that all the time with boro. I love it and there is no residue left after the bead is off the mandrel. Just soak in water and it cleans right up!!!

Good luck

[Aymie]

Don't put your tools in the flame woman...maybe a graphite paddle...but I would say nothing else. Graphite and metal will stick to the glass when it is hot in the flame. One exception, the tungsten pick...but it will stick if you get it hot enough as well...just hotter than everything else...an old graphite anything will stick real quick.

My best results with the AP come from putting it in the kiln in the clear-yellow stage and I just soak the little buggers until the purple gets dark enough for me. If it isn't turning purple at annealing, ramp it to 1100-1150 and then right back down...that should do it...but most of mine will strike with annealing. Cook off any blue haze on the surface...that shit will grow and you will never see purple unless you sand blast it...while cooking off the haze in an oxidizing flame the color usually gets hot enough to get the yellow I want. Now, keep in mind I have no clear concept of how most of the colors work and have just figured out my own ways through trial and error. AP is always awesome on top of black...so is warm yellow (thanks Wil). I NEVER FLAME STRIKE. I do not ever like the result and it can still change in the kiln.

Get some boro stix white...It is the only white worth a flip in my opinion. It is like butter...you can't boil it...I have used it for beads and never has cracking issues...I have never had any issues of any sort with that white.

The cheap ass black Chinese rod is nice for small details...it is stiffer than other colors and gives you more control.

Boro color can be tricky...so many things can;t go inside...while others can;t go outside...some boil...some are butter...some drastically change color...some lose color or turn ugly color if not worked properly. I think boro stix are the most consistent color palette. Most of the colors work and feel the same...we all know they are my favorite.

I don't know about the M/M, but I run my Red Max all the way up to 35psi on occasion.

I don't know what size my mandrels are but I lose one of every five when I try to do boro beads...and they take way to damn long to cook smooth while protecting the mandrel. My bead release is also garbage...which may effect that...I don't know that kinda stuff...I'm not a bead lady:Tongue:

Sorry I just saw this thread...I would have been happy to help facilitate your transition to the good glass sooner. You can pick my brain any time...I'll pick yours in return...I would love to be able to do soft glass as well.

[naughty pirate wench]

Many thanks to all who replied...You guys rock...

Don't they? Everyone here is totally awesome! :blowkiss:


Set your gas at 5 psi and your oxy at 18 and unless you are killing it you won't melt your torch. I started with beads on a minor with boro and you won't have any problems......a new bead release out there, Dirty Louies, and I use that all the time with boro. I love it and there is no residue left after the bead is off the mandrel. Just soak in water and it cleans right up!!!

Jane, thank you SO MUCH for the tips! I don't have regulators at this point, but they are on the Equipment to Buy List (as is Dirty Louies - I HATE HATE HATE cleaning bead release off of beads!!!) :D I'm just cranking my gas (natural gas) flame up as far as it'll go, and then cranking up the oxy to get a neutral flame and going from there. For the time being, it's working pretty well...except for pesky Ruby Slippers. Which looks more like Sparkly Liver once I get done with it. :twitch:


Don't put your tools in the flame Yeah, I've had metalsmithing classes and it just didn't seem like a good idea to put anything but graphite or (limited) the tungsten in the flame. Too, I don't put my tools in the flame with my soft glass, so I haven't developed any bad habits to break, LOL.

Aymie, thanks for the AP tips - I haven't fiddled with it since - came home from the DFO with some Ruby Slippers and was distracted by the sparkle. :D I am printing out all of the tips from this thread and will study carefully before I do boro again. Kind of a pain - I gotta re-program my kiln every time I switch glass - but then again, I'm so thankful I HAVE a kiln, and a torch, and glass.......


My bead release is also garbage...which may effect that...I don't know that kinda stuff...I'm not a bead lady:Tongue:

Girl, we can FIX that, LOL. Get thee on a plane to Seattle, quick!


Sorry I just saw this thread...I would have been happy to help facilitate your transition to the good glass sooner. You can pick my brain any time...I'll pick yours in return...I would love to be able to do soft glass as well.

No worries. It's all glass, it just has different properties and personalities. I am still very much a beginner, but I'm happy to share what information I can.

I want to be equally proficient in boro and soft glass, so it'll take me a little time to get there - but with help from you and everyone else on this forum, :blowkiss: I know it won't take too long!

Again, many thanks to everyone!