Vacuum stick stack

[seadal]

So I have heard a lot about it but never seen it done. Does anybody here do this tech to make their tubing? If you do how is it done. Maybe a tut?:chilling:

[BlueLilyStudio]

someday when its time...plus its really hard to do, not so hard to figure out.

[schmoinkel]

Never done it with a vac pump, I just use a blow hose. It seems like the pump would help a lot if you weren't melting everything smooth first. Personally I like the look of smooth lines better.

Scott

[rabidgod]

me wanna kno......wait, me do know!!:evilLaugh
never tryed it tho

[Greymatter Glass]

the way I've seen it done is with a vacuum cup .... hard to explain how it's made...but...You blow a bubble, suck half back into itself, and open a hole on the rim... then you seal that to the stick stack tube,. The other end of the cup is attached to a vacuum. Close off the other end, punty it up, toss it on a lathe, use a cradle burner, and run it from the closed to the open end.

Follow?

I've done it freehand on a small tube, nearly burned up my shop vac... get a real vacuum. The venturi vac posted below would probably work great. You don't need much vacuum, just enough to move the glass.

There's other methods as well. I've heard some people use a mandrel (don't know what material, but I think graphite or steel + aquadag would probably work).

Also, there are special lathes made to redraw tubing.... you heat it up, push a button, and the lathe heads pull apart.... might help to keep it all even and straight.

[schmoinkel]

What's the purpose of the vacuum cup?



Scott

[Greymatter Glass]

to pull air from between the inner and outer walls...

when I say vacuum cup, I don't mean like a stump sucker...I mean a tool to distribute the vacuum to the right spot.

[schmoinkel]

I see.

I just leave the inner tube closed off till the encasment is done, then open it up and attach a blow tube.


Scott

[Greymatter Glass]

like I said, I can't explain it well....

[kilgroth]

OK, I think I figured out how to post an image. Or I will figure it out soon.
http://www.talkglass.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=20660&stc=1&d=1254376693

I stack my color up on a 25mm tube with rubber bands or what ever. Keep the 25mm closed. Set up a piece of 50x5 about an inch or 1.5 longer than your color. I like to hook it up to the vacuum hose at this point. Throw it in the kiln.

Now heat the far end of the color, opposite of your blowtube, and get it tacked on to the 25mm tube. You must work quickly from here on. Cut of your rubber bands and slide it into your preheated 50x5.

Starting on the open end of the 50, heat and marver to pinch it down onto the 25mm. Now turn on the vacuum and start melting from this pinched end.

Open up the torch and melt it down. When you get to the far end of the 50, be sure not to melt you blowtube shut. If it gets warm, the vacuum will pull it shut. That is why I like to leave a little extra material.

When melted down, tear off the excess 50 and attach punty(16mm). Pull it down to the appropriate diameter. I then jack and break it in the middle.

My explaination is kinda long and sloppy, but I hope it helps.

[styles1 torchlife]

I've been rockin' the VacStack since early o7' it destroyed all the myths I had about glass and opened a lot of doors. I wouldn't make striped tubing any other way unless necessary for the desired outcome.

I use a venturi. I feel that this is honestly the HOLY GRAIL OF GLASS BLOWING TECHNIQUES!!!!
I say this because it can be used to make tons of latty, ribbon rod and Millies.
It mainly changed my perspective because no one taught me these techniques, I truely learned on my own.
After lots many sleepless nights it came together.

I use a $120 dollar compressor and $200 venturi. I will try to post some pics of the stuff I make with it. I'm selling these venturies for $200 if any one is interested. Pm me

[kage]

+rep kilgroth. thats exactly how i do it. nice visual

[Shatner]

OK, I think I figured out how to post an image. Or I will figure it out soon.
http://www.talkglass.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=20660&stc=1&d=1254376693

I stack my color up on a 25mm tube with rubber bands or what ever. Keep the 25mm closed. Set up a piece of 50x5 about an inch or 1.5 longer than your color. I like to hook it up to the vacuum hose at this point. Throw it in the kiln.

Now heat the far end of the color, opposite of your blowtube, and get it tacked on to the 25mm tube. You must work quickly from here on. Cut of your rubber bands and slide it into your preheated 50x5.

Starting on the open end of the 50, heat and marver to pinch it down onto the 25mm. Now turn on the vacuum and start melting from this pinched end.

Open up the torch and melt it down. When you get to the far end of the 50, be sure not to melt you blowtube shut. If it gets warm, the vacuum will pull it shut. That is why I like to leave a little extra material.

When melted down, tear off the excess 50 and attach punty(16mm). Pull it down to the appropriate diameter. I then jack and break it in the middle.

My explaination is kinda long and sloppy, but I hope it helps.

Pictues speak a thousand words. Or drawings in this instance. Thanks and repped. What are these 'venturi vaccuums' I keep heaing about? Too lazy to google.

[Bryan]

too lazy to answer..

[Bates207]

don't forget, if you have an air compressor and don't have 200$, you can make a glass venturi.



I use a venturi. I feel that this is honestly the HOLY GRAIL OF GLASS BLOWING TECHNIQUES!!!!


http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u86/bates207/IMG_3280.jpg

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u86/bates207/glasssucker.jpg

[Lub]

bates in insane...bates is insane...everyone sing it with me. I am going to look further into this when less safety broken, but just off your crazy knowledge of everything and your ability to male it out of glass, bates, you're basically a fucking beast.

I've been getting all my line tube from a shop owner lately for free to in turn make him product for a better price basically, but when i did stick stacks more, it was very similar to that diagram/method except I did small ones so basically, a maria on the bottom of a 16 or 25mm tube for the inside, the maria holds the color in place, then a 2 inch longer then what you cut the color to blank of 44mm for the sleeve. pop the inside tube into the big one (Lay it on a table) and slide your pre cut rods in whatever pattern you want. Start melting at the open end of the outer sleeve and melt/marver the extra 44mm over the 16/25mm your holding it by. once its all sealed off around there, turn the vacuum on which is connected to the blowtube of the 44mm (Opposite side of where you just melted) once its on go back to where you melted first, get all that hot as a base, then go into your color. Don't try to go to fast at first. once all the color rods are sealed to the outer 44 and you start to see the channels of air being pulled out, thats when you can start raging, but again, once you get to the opposite end, take it slow or you will get too much of the outer sleeve hot and it will suck down over the blowtube and no longer be able to remove air from the stack. basically, good luck. never done it on a lathe, but 3 inches of color all the way around the 16mm with the 44 over it was plenty for a 8 section bub and a heady inline forgot how many r balls it had. but it gets heavy.

[Swampy]

A clever bloke, is Mr Bates.

I use the opposite end of the compressor...

attach a tee to the inlet, leave one end of the tee open, connect the other end to the swivel. The outlet side of the compressor isn't connected to the tank, it goes to atmosphere.

If the tee is closed, the suck will cause the tube to collapse, so leave it open to atmosphere so the compressor can still breathe.

I find it still gives enough suction to pull air from the tube.

[Skye Perry]

+rep kilgroth. thats exactly how i do it. nice visual
Same here .I use 4'' 75x5 with 50 x5 inside 7 mm rod fits perfect.

[nicko0]

what vac pressures are you getting with venturi?

[kilgroth]

Thanks Bates. Your original venturi post is what got me really interested in vac stacks. I built 3 of them at the end of my day, and used the best one. I used about 18 lbs of air, and made enough suction to hurt my tongue with the vacuum hose.

I did eventually get a mechanical pump. My are compressor is big, and my venturi was Crazy loud.

[rabidgod]

I lay 7mm lines on 19 and then slide it in some 25, which I have connected to a vacuum pump , previously used for HVAC, which I have on a foot switch and connected to a blow tube on a swivel. On a 6 inch blank I got 15-20" of 20mm x 5-6mm stock. I can do this in 10 min start to finish, with using roughly 1 stick of. color. I'll post a pic of the pump set up in a second.

"Cheat Stack"

Color comes out solid, 0 bubbles, easy to combine similar colorways quickly.

[SAWstudioZ]

I began my stacks with a regular shop vac. I ended up putting a few holes in the shop vac tube at one end so that the vac would still pull air from the atmosphere while also providing enough suction to remove all of the air from the tube incasement. this helped keep my shop-vac from burning up due to motor overload....

[rabidgod]

Oh yeah, I do all of it with my lynx.

[Riley]

sick nasty bates!!

i do all my stacks and sleeves on the lathe and have been interested in this technique ever since i heard strobel was making tube stock like this.

a few questions for clarification.

for doing 3 layer clear/color/clear are people using 25 heavy wall for the bottom layer or a thin wall? i use a litton q5 cradle burner and even though its alot of heat i imagine a thinner wall inner tube might work better ? i tried a triple stack without the vacuum with decent results but i got a significant amount of air trap under the color, between the 25 and the color.

i hear "just heat from one end to the other" with the vac on. i imagined at first heating it all up and then turning on the vac for an "instant" seal. but now it seems like the venturi is running at a consistent pressure yet lower than i initially perceived to gently vacuum and accelerate the process. sound right ?

another question is when i do a regular stick stack i have a blowtube and the other end of the tubing is closed so i have control of the pressure. the question i have is on one end do you have a blowtube and the other end the vacuum ? so that if you blocked the mouthpiece of your blowtube the vacuum would increase, so in this way you can control the vacuum ?

thanks for this thread, bates repped !

[kage]

^ i have my blow hose hooked up to the inner tube and vacuum on the outter. i think it helps melt in more if you blow into the core as you paddle.

[Riley]

thanks ! i am an hour or two away from trying this out and i am stoked. my other question was what size 25 mm do you use, thin, standard, heavy ?

[BlueLilyStudio]

thanks ! i am an hour or two away from trying this out and i am stoked. my other question was what size 25 mm do you use, thin, standard, heavy ?

I use heavy wall 44 as my inner sleeve, and 70x5 on the outer sleeve. It is in fact easier to do with standard or medium wall tubing on the inside sleeve, but this creates a more dramatic optic effect on the inside of the tube that can cause stress, i.e. it will make the inside of the tube look like scalloped tubing where the inside tube has sucked up in between the color rods. It is no problem if you heat up and stretch the whole tube after vacuuming, but places that are not stretched may have stress. Also the heavier your inner tube is the more glass you get out of the process. So sometimes when I am using very saturated colors I even go up to Extra-Heavy on my inner wall.

Both Ends must be open or you will create a rod and not a tube. In fact as you think the process through, only one end will be open after you are done vacuuming the rod end solid. And work progressively most definitely, if you try to heat the whole thing and vac down all at once you will trap air in between your inner wall and the color and you definitely don't want that, although its not the end of the world. If you trap air in your inner wall score and cut open the tube or diamond shear and crack off the tube so that the air bubbles are open and then using a punty support that doesn't block the air bubbles work from one end toward the open end and get the air out.

I have made hundreds of tubes this way and I have gotten them all to work from the very first one on. And nobody taught me how to do it. I figured it all out myself through trial and error and thoughtful reflection. (edit: spelling)

[kage]

the two ways i have done it:
25 hvy core w/ 50x5 sleeve (by hand) or
50 hvy core with 75x5 sleeve (lathe)

[Riley]

another question... as i am out of 25mm and would more than likely have to sacrifice some oversize female gongs for their 25mm tube stock....

will the vac stack work efficiently on a single layer as in a regular stick stack (color/clear), or is the bottom layer of clear important because it helps direct the vac flow through the outer edge of the sleeve. as in, a wide open tube with no bottom layer of clear may not be directing enough of the vacuum towards the surface of the stack ?

i am sure for efficiency's sake everyone who vac stacks is doing it triple layered, just wondering if when anyone first started this they tried the simpler process first with solid results, before moving on to the clear/color/clear ?

[themoch]

if you hook a vacuum pump up to a closed bubble while you heat it will implode it.

so by only hooking the vacuum up to the outer shell you avoid it collapsing while taking out all the air.

the taking out of the air between the rods is what is most time consuming about this process. with the vacuum you spend less heat/energy/time

[Riley]

ah, ok i am getting the mental visual now more and more. the thought i was getting hung up on was if you didn't have the inner wall, as in a regular stack, which is the only way i currently do it, other than color drawn on and then lathe sleeved.... and you left your blowhose on one end "open" and the other end vacuum, there would be a pull but not a complete seal, so the ambient negative pressure could "in theory" pull air out without imploding the whole thing, but maybe not, and now it makes full sense.

thanks for the conceptualization, i have spent years drawing and thinking through new ideas so much that with a clear mental understanding of the concepts involved, success is guaranteed, if not the first go then the second.

[D kid]

Here's a little something I just put together I measured a bunch of color rods with my calipers and picked the Hi and low number. I then made two variations of a 50mm tube with two types of sizes for color. Picture is worth a million words.

[Lucaso]

Sick diagram, rep for sure.

[styles1 torchlife]

Riley if you want to see this action happen, so you will be able to get more answers do a clear vackstack with only a few lines of color.

I have found that this is very valuable when showing this to new people.
It will show you how far ahead of the vaccum you are heating.

Generally people are heating ahead of the point where the glass is becoming one tube. Usually your outer tube looks all sealed an inch or two further down in reality the inner tube hasn't melted that far along yet. You will see where the air bubbles lines are very easily.

Ow yeah and I always pre-heat my stack to get the core temp. up before melting. this will help keep air bubles minimized and the color comes out crisper.

Hope this helps!

[chayes]

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=100731906

[justiceglass]

wow, nice.. i need me a lathe i guess...

[Boss]

you can also do it by hand also....... learned it from devin S.

[styles1 torchlife]

Nice video Chayes!

[D kid]

Here is a 60mm tube 100mm or so.

[Swampy]

^great explanation, I use the same sequence.

[randy138]

I saw it done with full sticks of color on a lathe, vacum cleaner and delta mag

[STROKER]

i saw matt's tube at blue lilly studio and its as nice as i think you could get. completely bubble free as well as consistantly thick. when inspecting his tubes i couldnt find anythng negative to say except they were not coming back to my shop with me to work. ha ha

he uses 70mm for the outer and does it all by hand with bench rollers and a delta elite. you da man matt.

he is using at least half length color rods. very impressive amount of glass to handle on a blowtube with no lathe involved. looks like he gets alot from each hand pull so i know a lathe is not required to get some large pulls.

i still have a hard time handling 50mm tube so the 70 seems crazy big to me, but i know it can be done.

[Bryan]

stroker: I pretty sure if you get like 3-5 people in your shop chanting dont be a bitch while you work the 70mm, you'll be able to work it fine :)

[STROKER]

stroker: I pretty sure if you get like 3-5 people in your shop chanting dont be a bitch while you work the 70mm, you'll be able to work it fine :)

that explains alot , a whole lot. i guess the many voices in my head are not gonna count here.

alright i need some volunteer chanters for my next tube pull.:D

[kage]

i do it by hand. one question:

after you pull the tube, do you bench cool it or straight to the kiln?

i've always gone straight to the kiln and then proceed to try and use the whole tube pull all in the same day. i'm thinking if i can bench cool, then i would be more productive and do several pulls in a day and not pressured to finish it all off right then in the same session.

[budman8778]

i always bench cool mine... as long as its pulled below about 24mm. you sould be ok...

[Bryan]

All about how thick it is for me... A lot of times i will put them in the kiln for like 15 min then pull them out to bench cool.

[BlueLilyStudio]

15 minutes in the kiln then let them bench cool and they are fine. Every time I grab the 70 it feels smaller, but I have a large grip.

[BlueLilyStudio]

go big

http://www.glasspipes.org/Images/FullSize/000228000/Img228063_Resize_of_stackview.JPG

[Swampy]

go big


heh heh

as much as I would want to, right now it would be physically impossible for me to pull out something something on that scale.

can you tell me your sequence after the pull...

do you either cut or melt it into lengths to fit your kiln then open up the ends later and weld on blowpipes?


or some other cunning plan? :o)


I find the ends crack right where the colour stops, before I can get the chopped-up lengths in the kiln.


/repped for mad skill (well I would if I could...)

[BlueLilyStudio]

after i melt it in I get the whole thing super fucking hot, especially the ends, and then pull it to about 4 feet long. This gives me a long 1"+ diameter tube in the center of two thick areas which are at the ends, some times I can get the collar side to pull all the way down if I have an assistant to pull the other side of the tube. But vertically by myself I have one end hit the ground and the other end above my head because of the blowtubes, I need a set of stairs! Then using the lynx I heat up a line where the straight tube begins and diamond shear break off the first thick end and kiln it. Then I do the same for the rest of the tube, not adding any blow tubes and I break off two or three more foot long pieces as fast as possible while the other thick end is still glowing red. (if the kiln is empty enough I just break off the tube sections straight off the diamond shear into the kiln) Then I am left with the thick end which I work out any remaining air from the end and stretch it down to as close to the other pieces size. After that I work the other thick end. Usually by the time I have worked down the end, I take out the first couple of pieces and let them bench cool so they aren't taking up too much space in the kiln so I can start another vac stack.

[Swampy]

thanks very much, very interesting to hear your work sequence.

[Dom]

It makes me sweat just thinkin about that tube you got there blue.

[BlueLilyStudio]

I have an 18,500 btu air conditioner piped above my torch that has a long 1 cm wide slit cut into a cardboard tube that blows an air curtain at my face an upper body so I can work as long as needed to get the right heat without passing out. I do still wear sleeves and long shirt though. Even with the ac running it doesn't affect my flame at all when doing even the most delicate work because of the opposing forces of torch and ventilation and AC.

[kage]

i pulled a tube the other day like i always do with 10 inch color sticks and a 50 mil sleeve only this time i bench cooled it....lost about a quarter of the tube. :bangHead:

[justiceglass]

I just tried this tech for the first time with success. This is the way i'll be doing it from now on! way more tubing and the vacuum ideal is just pimp!!! now to make some pieces from the tubing.

I think i'm going to build a custom kiln for this kind of prep work. would be nice to have an oven that i could set 10 - 16 inch tubes in to soak while i work the other half. And have the ability to do 3-5 vac stack pulls a day with enough room in the kiln for all the finished tubing to soak and be cooled of slowly. I just dont feel safe with the bench cooling thing..


:chilling:

[n3rd]

i just tried this the other day and it rocks!! much thanks kilgroth! 32 into 60, 19 rods, works great :)

[Dom]

Are you guys using a shop vac or venturi?

[n3rd]

shop vac, bench cool, score and snap, alllll good !! :D

http://s194.photobucket.com/albums/z24/N3RDglass/?action=view&current=IMG_4438.jpg

[hashmasta-kut]

wow that looks tight n3rd

[Mecha]

N3rd, is that your first attempt in the picture?

Really nice looking tubing man. Excellent work.

[Swampy]

Are you guys using a shop vac or venturi?

I use the suction side of a little compressor, outlet goes to air.

The line to the swivel is reinforced hose so it doesn't get sucked in and collapse. Right before the inlet, there's a T-piece so that there isn't a perfect suck, more like a 50% suck, otherwise the suck is too strong.

The on-off switch is foot operated because my hands are full = remove right sandal, press button with big toe ftw.

[kage]

delta elite and hvac vacuum pump

[D kid]

30 dollar Vacuum fro. HD. Drilled 6 1/4 inch holes in hose. Don't want complete suction it will pull the glass to fast and helps relive the motor on the vac as well.

[STROKER]

N3rd, is that your first attempt in the picture?

Really nice looking tubing . Excellent work.

i agree , that is very topnotch work.

how long were your color rods on this one and how much time did it take to melt it in?

if that was your first attempt then it is even more impressive.

[justiceglass]

here's the results from my first vac stack. I'll never make tubing any other way again. Mind you, i just started pulling tubes and this is my third pull ever. The other method i used was similar sizeloves method.

I used a 4" section of 50x5 with a 25.4 for the inner sleeve. color rods were 3" long. I ended up with 24" of tubing that i split into four pieces.

And a huge thanks to all the help and advice you all gave on this tech, it truely is the shit!!

[n3rd]

first attempt yes!! thanks folks, but this is pretty easy! try it you're gonna love it !!

it was 4" rods on 32mw into 60x5, and it yielded 16oz of tube!!!! i just stuffed my blow hose into the shop vac and taped it about 75% shut. the tape also held the blow hose in there. i thought about drilling the shop vac but as soon as i mess up the shop vac thats when plumbing fails or something bad happens where i need a shop vac working right away! i fear murphy's law

definitely foot switch that shop vac off and on as needed per swampy's technique.

[STROKER]

well i am 100% convinced you are all correct about this tech. i used 50 on the outside 25.4 on the inside and 16 rods of color at 3 inches long for my first attempt.

got about 18 inches of tube but there is about 3 inches that i did not melt enough before i turned the vac on and ended up trapping air.

i was so thrilled to melt this with my o2 generator as i have had problems in the past with stickstack attempts.

thanks to all that posted the how to on this thread.

now i gotta go make another and maybe even two more.

not one single bubble in the main section of tubing. i am super excited about the future of my prep work.

[hashmasta-kut]

damn im such a noob but i wanna try this now, and even have all the stuff i need, cept the cojones... :)

[jr23]

Its easy don't try and over think it. Jump in

[BlueLilyStudio]

Very nice all around, one bit of advice though: run the vac the whole time and work progressively from one end to the other and once you've done about 100 of them you will start to notice that if you look carefully you can see whether or not the air is totally gone from the inner layer by the heat base. When the air lines of the inner tube are not gone you will see darkness in the lines between your color rods instead of an even glow. An even glow means that you've done your job, this is especially hard to accomplish at the end of the rods on the vac side. I click back and forth from my big flame to small flame and reduce the suction so that the end collar doesn't suck down and attach to the inner tube prematurely, or cut off the suction before all the air is gone and the rods are fully melted inside and out.

[nicko0]

how much can you resleeve a vack stack made using crayola colors?

for example a 50x5 with a 25x4 inner 3 inches long pulled down to six inches and re sleaved inside another piece of 50x5 six inches long, will the color be too thin?

if so, how far can you go?

if not, how much can you do?

[hashmasta-kut]

i just stuffed my blow hose into the shop vac and taped it about 75% shut. the tape also held the blow hose in there. i thought about drilling the shop vac but as soon as i mess up the shop vac


i was just gonna drill some holes, then tape it up after, simple :)

[D kid]

To keep the collar end from sucking down try to make the 50 -60 mm tube a little longer then the Color rod. Mabey 20-30mm. keep all your color in the front. I did this by mistake and I use this tech every time now.

[hashmasta-kut]

http://www.talkglass.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=20660&stc=1&d=1254376686

like this you mean? (reposted pic from page one).

[hashmasta-kut]

go big

http://www.glasspipes.org/Images/FullSize/000228000/Img228063_Resize_of_stackview.JPG

in this pic is the top end the one that will be going to the vaccuum? do you need a blowhose on the other end, or can you just use a ten mm tube as handle blowtube.. i've never used a blowhose yet, so i'm confused still. do you need a swivel on the end that attaches to teh vac?

[STROKER]

in this pic is the top end the one that will be going to the vaccuum? do you need a blowhose on the other end, or can you just use a ten mm tube as handle blowtube.. i've never used a blowhose yet, so i'm confused still. do you need a swivel on the end that attaches to teh vac?

you do not attatch the blow tube to the other side until you have preheated in kiln and melted in the end of the bundle so you can start the vac effect. once you pull the preheated bundle out the first thing you do is tack all the rods together at the end to the inner and outer tube. this is actually the only time i used my marver, the rest was all done with vac pressure.

matt is very experienced and he said i need to leave the vac on the entire time next time. i will try that as oppossed to the on and off. i am actually using a gast vaccum pump which has way too much suction so i use a diverter valve to reduce the suction.

once you have melted an inch or so of the tube , attach the blow tube to the other side so you will have as a punty for the pull. you are not ever gonna blow into the blowhose side during the making of the tube. i actually did not attach my blowtube until i was ready to pull it but i was only using a short bundle of color. big stack and you will have to attach sooner.

as for the swivel. i do and it seems like the way to go. rollers are a big help too unless you like a good work out. my shoulders are shot from my wood job so i will do anything to help my old body out.

i just made another stack with no problems except the very end again. yes i left extra on the 50 mm tube and i used only the inner flame at the end but still didnt get it right on the very last part. no complaints, i still got 2 feet of ass kicking new color tube to use.

later,jay

[hashmasta-kut]

as for the swivel. i do and it seems like the way to go. rollers are a big help too unless you like a good work out. my shoulders are shot from my wood job so i will do anything to help my old body out.



awesome thanks for all the info. its funny, i am in the same boat as you, the wood job thing. im trying to quit that right now to blow glass, crazy me haha, but its so much easier on me, and my shop is at home too. rollers, i dont got. should make some sometime for this kind of thing maybe.

[The Lorax]

wow looks like this could possibly have even more depth than a stick stack if im not mistaken??

i'm all bout the depth.. will def have to give one of these a try when i get the extra time
__________________

[jr23]

Why all the pre kilning of the bundle.

when there done with full length color rods and half clear tube' on big lathes they are set up cold worked hot and bench cooled if the pull is even.

I have a smaller machine and do the 50 and 75's outer sleeves and only have a problem if I flare the outer sleeve out to thick and then come in way hot after it has cooled.

So I don't do that and save all the pre warming for after the tube is finished and I am ready to work it.


Just wondering why you tack down the color and pre warm stuff seems like once I watched that chayes vid all pre warming went out the door with not a problem one.

for me I would always touch it when I would be chucking it up and once I learned without pre warming I can't go back.

[STROKER]

Why all the pre kilning of the bundle.

when there done with full length color rods and half clear tube' on big lathes they are set up cold worked hot and bench cooled if the pull is even.

I have a smaller machine and do the 50 and 75's outer sleeves and only have a problem if I flare the outer sleeve out to thick and then come in way hot after it has cooled.

So I don't do that and save all the pre warming for after the tube is finished and I am ready to work it.


Just wondering why you tack down the color and pre warm stuff seems like once I watched that chayes vid all pre warming went out the door with not a problem one.

for me I would always touch it when I would be chucking it up and once I learned without pre warming I can't go back.

it only has to prewarm for 10-15 minutes and you have to tack the rods together at the end to allow suction from the vac.

coming into a flame without preheating with that mass would be risky so you would have to use a carbon flame for a while to get it safe and not be shocky when you hit it with the real flame.

most of us dont have a lathe so being able to pull out a preheated sleeve and go at it with a raging torch is a time saver and a safer practice.

if you plan to make more than one, it is preheated by the time you get the rods cut and cleaned for the second one. stick the second one in to preheat and pull out the first one and go at it.

it took me exactly 14 minutes or torching to heat and pull out a 2 foot section from 50m. this is from the time i pulled open the kiln door.

if i start with a cold bundle that thick, i will have to preheat with a cold carbon flame for at least 3-4 minutes and still be no better than i was with the preheated one.

my kiln is running all day anyway, so why not be safe and preheat?

[BlueLilyStudio]

Prewarming would obviously be next to impossible on a lathe, so the difference is that we are doing it by hand and therefore warming it makes sense. In that pic where I am holding the vacstack upright what is happening is this: I let the rods of color roll back into the back side of the sleeve and then pull the inner tube out about 1 inch and heat the lip of it and ream it out to meet up with the outer tube and then I upend the whole thing onto the carbon and let all the rods fall into line and that effectively tacks the rods into place while ensuring that all the rods are evenly placed, if you have one fall out and be left behind it sucks to have to waste inches of tubing because one line didn't meet up. It is my way of accomplishing what Chayes does with the flange on the end of his inner tube, it just keeps the color from separating and getting out of line. This also makes a DEWAR tube which is why I call this a Dewar Encasement rather than a vacstack whenever I am talking about this technique to anyone but a glassblower because i think it is a much better term for the tech than vac stack.

[BlueLilyStudio]

Also it takes me roughly 20 - 25 minutes to do the whole thing once I pull it out of the kiln. Sucking, Melting, and stretching.

[jr23]

no bigs just checking the why's and what's of your process.

no harm or foul bro's.

I am just curious thanks stoker and blue. I love all blue's tips they helped me too!

I used to call that style a dewar too as I read lots of sci lamp books and stuff but I even had a dude argued with me so I just gave in and started using the forum lingo.


I am sorry if it sounded like I was bashing you just comparing process.

And I don't run a carbon flame to warm the bundle stoker I just work from end to end and start with the edge of the flame and soon as the tip is red I come in just as hot as you guys do.

[Swampy]

well I guess I kiln the setup first so the core tube (25 x 4) can get warm and absorb the colour sticks.

this has to be about the sexiest technique.

[jusbag]

I did one of these today. I only warmed the 50x5 sleave. That way I could hold all the color sticks around the 25x4 without burning my tender fingers.

[STROKER]

I did one of these today. I only warmed the 50x5 sleave. That way I could hold all the color sticks around the 25x4 without burning my tender fingers.

i dont understand why you wouldnt go ahead and put the color as well as the 25.4 blank in with the outer sleeve to preheat?

no finger burning required and you just pull out the entire blank , hook up vac and rage the shit out of the torch for 15 minutes.

[jusbag]

That would work as well. :)

[petto]

Big ups to Blue Lilly and Skye for some tips and this thread. Just rocked my first vac stak yesterday and got a ton O' tube. Just used 4" stiks for the first go around but cam out nice. Got 26 to fit in nicely. Not a single air bubble. Was like BL said, bout 25-30 min from out of kiln. Best method for line tube IMHO.

[glassnewb]

I like to drop stringers of Steel Wool, Heavy Blue Lep or Unobtainium between the rods. It helps lock the rods in place and prevents movement AND the best part is super-fine mega bling. It will make your piece sparkle like crazy.

[STROKER]

I like to drop stringers of Steel Wool, Heavy Blue Lep or Unobtainium between the rods. It helps lock the rods in place and prevents movement AND the best part is super-fine mega bling. It will make your piece sparkle like crazy.

that sounds like a cool way to go about it. got any pics of finished tube?

[Bo Diddles]

Has anybody used china black for the inner sleeve?

[Albino Sasquatch]

i beliece ltd has he textures and sleeves the blak tubing with no problems.

[Bo Diddles]

^ Thanks Albino, but I've sleeved many a textured black tube before... I meant using black (or any other colour for that matter) tubing as the inner 25mm tube in a vac stack.
Anyone?
I plan on trying my first vac stack tomorrow.

[LTD]

^ Thanks Albino, but I've sleeved many a textured black tube before... I meant using black (or any other colour for that matter) tubing as the inner 25mm tube in a vac stack.
Anyone?
I plan on trying my first vac stack tomorrow.

I have sleeved a shit ton of black, but not in stacks. If you are in need of some jet blasck tubing, they have 2nds for 18 a lb at cornerstone. Bluemoon as well

[kage]

i've sleeved china black inside a vac stack before. its tricky-er than normal. especially if you've never done it. i've used black, green, and blue for the inner core and alternated color rods with clear. if you pull it off, there is more depth with the tube color vs the rod color and its sweet.

rjh and i were discussing this once. i said you can do it but its risky. he said well yeah, if you do it that way, you've got premium over shwag.

i would suggest if attempting to have china tube as your core, do a smaller stack in case you loose some or all of it. that way your not out a whole lot of material and wasted time cursing asian tubing

[p.j.]

i've seen bates and ukiah use it as the inner when we were at class and he was showing us his venturi

[jimbe420]

i tried the vac stack method today and it works awesome.It is the only way i will do stick stack from now on....

[Bo Diddles]

Great thread everyone, first two vac stacks were easy and couldn't have gone better thanks to the awesome info in this thread.

[kage]

^ did you use china black?

[Bo Diddles]

No, I actually forgot. I made the first one a fire / ice combo, then decided to try English Ivy, Turquesa, Mystery Aventurine and Dark Red Elvis over a black "core"... started talking to a friend while doing the prep, popped it in the kiln with a clear core, started sealing the end and then remembered I was going to use black. The tube turned out pretty awesome anyways... I can't believe it took me this long to try my first vac stack.

[Royal]

havent done one yet, but have used some before. im just waitin for the lathe to get up and running so i can make some bigguns.

i dont like 50 cause you dont get many lines, i like 20 or more. what size tubing sleeves in like 75+ with rods?

[Riley]

50mm in 75 with around 30 rods depending on the varying widths.

[MUPH]

I use 32 inside 60 for my sticks that wont fit into 25 inside 50

[p.j.]

the only problem i have with vac stack is some lighter airy colors tend to bubble when i go to work them, so i prefer rod encasement. i find that some colors must be worked in the flame first or they gas off and bubble between the layers...it has its place in the arsenal of techniques though

[TheGlassTree]

2 rollers 50x5 and 25x4 as innerwall. I use a dirtdevil scorpion dust buster with a hose attachment hooked to a plastic coke bottle with some holes stabbed in the side. I use a pluro multi corkstopper with my blowtube attached to that. Dust buster cost 20$ and works fantastic.

[Feel Good Glass]

Just bumping this thread for anyone who hasnt seen it, an amazing amount of knowledge was dropped in these 6 pages. Me and my shopmate had done other vacstacks testing tons of variables with little success, resulting in about 5-10 reballs worth of tube and the rest turning to solid rod; but then I found this thread, talked to some people, and we did 7 more vacstacks yesterday I think we got it :D . We were doing the main pull, diamond shearing off the medium section and throwin' it in the kiln along with one fat end; then attaching a new blowtube to the other big chunk and pulling it down, kiln, repeat with other chunk. Then taking all the tube out after 15min soak time and letting slow cool in a fiber blanket. Then result was one large tube and two medium sized ones already on blowtubes ready to go. Thanks again everyone, mad props to Bates for the Venturi, BlueLilly, Skye, D Kid, Kilgroth (and anyone else I forgot) for pics and some ill knowledge :blowkiss:

http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/2373/dscn5595z.th.jpg (http://img530.imageshack.us/i/dscn5595z.jpg/)
This was one of the ends we sheared off so its not close to as clean as the rest of the tube but you get the idea.

-John (Feelgood)

[petto]

I have been using 44mm x 4mm as the inner inside of 70mm x 5mm. Last one I did I got 26 lines.

[petto]

^^^by hand on a Mirage, about 30 min from when I pull it out of kiln.

[nicko0]

whats the length of your vacstacks?

currently mine are five inches

i think if i go much longer ill have cooldown issues and will have to pull off sections of tubing as i go, which ive done but then my mass cools down.

[petto]

^^5" color rods

[Headdi Retti's Glass Art Studio]

I just wanted to give madd props to Blue lilly studio, 331 stroker, n3rd, din and really all who participated in this thread it is an awesome read and learning experience! Lots of wonderful information. I have been reading this whole thread over and over atleast once a week since I sign on in early November. I learn more about this process and glass in general everytime, as I read an learn more, then I revisit this thread each time it makes even more sense!. I just can't wait to get raging! No Dewar encasement / stick stack and vacs, right off the get go of course, but it helps me to have the knowledge sitting in my head so when the time comes I have good idea how the glass move/reacts I really appreciate this forum I am on several now but I love this one the most! What a awesome bunch of people from every walk! ....Thx Clark:chilling:

[B-Rye-oNeR]

still never used a vac for this tech, but I got ahold of a sm 25 dollar vac , and would like to try..ONe question tho > do you leave the vac on the whole time ? or or heat up a section then turn on the vac for a couple seconds>?

[Riley]

it looks like people that use vacs, not venturis and compressors, put holes in the section of vacuum hosing (black plastic shop vac tubing) to alleviate vacuum pressure.

either way compressor/venturi setup or vacuum, you have to have the heat base in the section you are working before initiating vac'ing.

that is to avoid areas that aren't hot enough getting the outer sleeve melted down on it prematurely.

i use the venturi, and run the compressor on a low pressure and i adjust it as i go, depending on how the action is working. if it is vac'ing too hard i'll turn down the compressor press.

with a vacuum and holes, the only adjustment you will have is the amount of holes in your tubing to alleviate pressure.

the venturi allows for passive adjustable vacuuming, and is therefore going to be easier to dial in.

[B-Rye-oNeR]

Thas what i figured, for some reason my shop-mate (teacher/old schooler) was under the impression that you left it on the whole time... SO how do u manage to turn the vac on and off while your hands are full? was thinking of rigging up some kinda foot pedal on a power strip or something?..?

[n3rd]

earlier i said it would be nice to have a way to turn the vac off and on, as blue lilly pointed out that may not be needed. i leave it on until i'm convinced all the air is out and then i turn it off.

just recently got a case of 75x5, you guys are nuts!

[LTD]

Use a power strip as a foot pedal. Just put it on the floor and hit the switch with yer foot

[Riley]

the power strip footswitch would be a good option. don't turn it on till you have the spot you are working hot to the core. vacuum till you get to the end.

i understand financial circumstances dictating what is available to use in shop, but for a small investment you could pick up a very small compressor, even used, then make the glass venturi, and hook it up using surgical/blowhose a swivel, and a multistopper or rubber cork with a hole drilled through it. good to go, and you can adjust the pressure so that the process runs properly.

you will want a compressor that has an adjustable pressure, not just a gauge, that you can thread a hose into that's attached to your venturi.

[Headdi Retti's Glass Art Studio]

Riley, Man I like the venturi I've got a gast compressor. What psi do u use?. And do u just turn down reg once your down on the end? I saw where someone last week ran hose up to hood vent and this gave him enuff suction so I assume you need very little vac , Is this correct?. Thx...Clark..:chilling:

[kage]

SO how do u manage to turn the vac on and off while your hands are full? was thinking of rigging up some kinda foot pedal on a power strip or something?..?

http://www.harborfreight.com/general-merch/electrical/power-maintained-foot-switch-96618.html

http://www.harborfreight.com/general-merch/electrical/momentary-power-foot-switch-96619.html

http://www.harborfreight.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/370x/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/i/m/image_3627.jpg

no need to build or rig anything. i plug my vac pump into this and it works great. they are made for drill presses and such, basically anything electrical that you want hands free.

foot switch: 12 bucks
hands free toggled vacuuming: priceless

[BlueLilyStudio]

as people have said I use a vacuum and hook it up to a power supply switch on the floor under my bench...also I have my vacuum in the next room so its not wailing away in my ear while I work and its got a long hose that is attached to my bench.

What I meant by leaving the vacuum on is that once the inner tube is sealed to the outer tube, and the rods have been evenly tacked, I run progressively toward the open(vac) end, that is why its on all the time. Usually I get the whole thing in one run, but since I sometimes need to make adjustments to the collar attachments I let go of the vacuum hose and let it fall for a few moments on the table until I need it again. There is no difference between using a venturi or vacuum. They both suck as far as I am concerned, so no biggie. As long as you get it done.

[LifeGlass]

coleman air mattress pump, blow hose to point. voila, easy as pie....once it was shown to me!!!

[n3rd]

http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z24/N3RDglass/75x5.jpg

you guys are nuts!

[B-Rye-oNeR]

Did my first vac encasement today. using a 20 dollar 1.5 gallon vac(1hp), and 5 bux worth stuff fron the hardware store. THANKS guys! It went well. It's such an advantage to be able to keep it turning, and or even keep it in the heat as the air is sucked out. ( I still draw lines tho, so i still need to get the stick stack part down.) (wow a coleman air matress pump? ! ...thats crazy how little suction it takes,)

[B-Rye-oNeR]

word on the foot pedal , also (kage). I figured there was something like that out there. hitting the power stip w/my foot was the hardest part. ;) .

[Headdi Retti's Glass Art Studio]

Yes Thx Kage picked mine up yesterday, thru have 2 kinds. Push and hold, and push on push off. Really Kool, good thread!:chilling:

[misticglass]

after reading this thread, I found this at ocean state job lot, should work great for vacume control. havent tried a vacstack yet but almost have all the peices....

thanks for the inspiration. happy new year all.

http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh27/misticglass/switch.jpg


-morgan

[blackink]

Here are my first two vac stack's using 25.4 heavy on the inside and 50mm heavy on the outside. I used 16 rods on the left tube (go sharks), and 2 black/ 5 white rods with a bunch of 5mm clear rods to fill up the rest of the space. This tech rocks!

[D kid]

Looks Sweet!!!

[themoch]

puff it out more before you pull it, you'll be much happier when you go to work the tube.

you'll still have a nice wall thickness but it wont be super thick.

[BrassMonkey]

never done a stick stack but how do you think a variable speed peristaltic high vacuum low volume pump would work? i have a few and might set it up.

size recommendations for a smaller torch?(cheetah)

[n3rd]

i like to keep my tube pretty thick, it depends how you like to work. my guess is bl*ink will really dig that tube on the left, looks perfect to me.

[p.j.]

i feel i get cleaner reversal terminations when i rod encase. does anybody else find this?
my terminations on the vac stack are nice, but some times i feel that there is a little too much clear or just not super fine. it might just be me

[Swampy]

i feel i get cleaner reversal terminations when i rod encase. does anybody else find this?
my terminations on the vac stack are nice, but some times i feel that there is a little too much clear or just not super fine. it might just be me

No man it's not just you; I put it down to too much clear material on the inside.

So as I'm turning and pulling off the last bit of the termination, it goes too much clear in the centre.

So I tried a standard wall thickness tube for the core tube and now everything is fucking farout I mean look the detail and colours there man.

[blackink]

Interesting swampy, I'll try it with some 26 medium wall on the inside next time. I try to make sure that the termination area is slightly condensed so that I'm only picking the surface clear.

[Campy]

did my first vac stack the other day and had some crackin issues with the 50x5 but overall was a sucess

[Hefe]

Anyone try using color rods and then stringers in between each rod...in a vscstack?

Seems like it would work fine...the stringer would fit in the triangle shaped spot in between each color rod and the clear outer wall..

I had seen several tube pulls that seem to have an effect like this...wasn't sure if that's how it is done, but it should definitely work.
I'll try it later today I guess


If anyone has any input in this..please let me know!

[themoch]

Bingo!

[Dave Umbs]

Anyone try using color rods and then stringers in between each rod...in a vscstack?

Seems like it would work fine...the stringer would fit in the triangle shaped spot in between each color rod and the clear outer wall..

I had seen several tube pulls that seem to have an effect like this...wasn't sure if that's how it is done, but it should definitely work.
I'll try it later today I guess


If anyone has any input in this..please let me know!

it works ive done it many times takes the tube pull to the next level, we have been doing it at the studio im at for like 7-8 months
Eusheen was the first todo the vacuum stringers so props to him

[Hefe]

Saw it on some of his pieces at age, but forgot to ask him about em.
I just tried it out, but ran into a problem. Maybe it's because of the way I do the vacstacks...but the stringers move out of place when I am closing the one end so I can start the vac. When using color rods...they move around a little till the end is heated and tagged together, but they typically fall into place...but with the stringers, it seems like I would need to hold them in place somehow or melt them in to keep them in place.

If anyone has any tips to share, I would greatly appreciate it.

[Destrukt]

You could hold them in place by stuffing clear stringers around them to lock them in place before melting.

[Hefe]

That doesn't make much sense....have you done a vscstack? If I put clear stringers in..then where would I put the color stringers...



...anyone have any tips that they have actually tried themselves?




I guess it's hard to explain the problem I am running into..I should be able to figure it out though. If anyone understands what I am asking and has some good advice, please share

[themoch]

i do the method that you make a maria on the tube that will be in the center... this way all the rods are pushed against something when you slide them into the outter tube.

[n3rd]

hefe what size tubing and color rods are you using? i've tried stringers into vacstack twice, it worked once very nicely, the other time they kept dropping between the rods. everything really needs to be just the right size.

[Riley]

eush has been doing some real nice pulls with the stringer tech for some time now. seen rainbow spectrum over a solid color as well as little stringers of some sparklies to make for some nice pop. almost a hybrid of the old school i/o stringer pulls with the new school vac logic.

best quick pic i could pull a visual from the currently running "eusheen's flow-on show" still going on at easy street's gallery in brooklyn till may 12. buckle funk for the masses with what looks like unobtanium stringer tech.
http://easystreetbrooklyn.com/gallery/83/Eusheen/1430/Untitled

[glassnewb]

You just cut your stringers a bit longer than the rods, I have been doing this for a while as well. I pull quite a few extra stringers in various diameters so I can size them to fit. When you use the "right" size they actually lock the rods in place so nothing will move.

[Hefe]

Yeah, seems like maybe if i made slightly thicker stringers it would hold things in place more.

What do you mean about making the stringers longer than the rods? I am not visualizing how this helps keep things from falling between rods when rotating. Please explain if you can.

Moch, making a maria in the center tube seems like it would help keep things pushed to the outer wall as well. I am definitely going to try that with my next one.

I have only tried vacstacks with 25 inside 50. Today was my third stack...all 3 have come out great though....it's definitely a hard tech to fuck up..lol. All you need is a lot of heat and a vac..easy enough.


Thanks for all the tips guys! And lengthy explanations are always welcome.

[BlueLilyStudio]

yo throw all sorts of stringers in the spaces, it rocks. Whenever I have a vacstack prepped that seems a little loose I'll throw some unobtainium or moss or lochness stringer in there it adds a great sparkle. If you are having trouble with stuff falling out of place then you need to get it tighter. Try with different sized tubes on the inner tube to make a tighter fit. But even still if I have trouble getting stuff to stay still I'll throw some stringer in the inside spaces, sure you can't see them from the outside but they help keep things together, thats a good place for thin clear stringers. Also if you are having trouble with rods falling back and not attaching even just upend the whole thing and knock them down while pressing it onto a carbon plate. I usually do that before I open the inner tube out, and then also after the two tubes are connected. I don't bother with the maria on the inner tube because it makes it harder to get the last few millimeters of air out of the inner space between the tube and rods.

[Hefe]

Thanks for the tips, Matt.


Btw....Matt was the first person I saw do a vac stack....he does thm on the bench with 75x5 outer sleeve....fuckin HUGE!

Matt, next time I am heading to the mtns, hopefully we can do a little collab or something..
I'm hoping to make it out there sometime before the dfo

[frillcappa]

So Im a bit confused about the whole vacuum thing, When do you turn the vacuum off? It seems like once you have the top tube sealed down to the rods you should turn the vacuum off right? I feel like if the vacuum was on the whole time that the suction would collapse the whole tube on itself making a rod...

[Destrukt]

I use a Maria with grooves for airflow to keep it from sucking closed prematurely and I make sure it's nice and thick(Maria) so it doesn't change shape due to heat and suction and close up prematurely. I find it funny that you like the idea of extra clear stringers to lock your stack tight when the idea comes from blue Lilly but you want to check my credentials before even listening to the idea from me. All of these problems can be solved with practice and forethought. The Maria is nice because no clamps or rubberbands are required.

[Titus Glass]

Yeah this is an awesome technique but one that should be demonstrated to show the details. I use stringers in my vacstacks all the time.

The key to not having them fall through..... Bigger Stringers ! Fill up the space. If that doesn't seem to be the problem then change sizes of you inside tube. I use 25x4 or 22x3 depending on how the color and stringers fit.

I don't use a rubberband or maria. They are not needed if you pack the stack correctly. Add the first half of your pattern inside the outer tube(50mmx5) insert inner tube, add second half of color pattern, add stringers. Done.

You can coldwork you vacstack the J-Red way or preheat it the Cowboy way.
I work mine from cold right on the benchI don't kiln a vacstack until after it's pulled and then only if it's still superthick.

You turn the vacuum off AFTER you have melted all 3 layers together all the way across. I think of it as a typewriter. Going from one side to the other slowly.

Once it's all melted together kill the vac and hit the tube with large bushy flame to heat evenly so the pull will be like butta !

I've done a ton of these, they will really clean up your work ! Thanks to the cats who taught me! Did I miss anything?

[Hefe]

Destrukt...I didn't realize that you were talking about clear stringers UNDER the color rods...since my post was referring to the colored stringers in between the color rods. I didn't doubt your credentials, but you minimal explanation and the phrasing "you could try" doesn't necessarily instill confidence.

I appreciate all of the input..I am trying to minimize the amount of prep for these.
Seems like the Maria and slightly larger stringers will help lock things in place. I hope clear stringers on the inside are not necessary, I began doing these vacstacks to SAVE time..lol


Also, I like how these come out...especially with striking colors and steel wool and stuff. But I still pull my FTC tube pulls as stickstacks with no clear inside and a thinnish outside layer of clear..keep the colors from washing out when used in double layer work. Also, for layering colors..I prefer tube encasements. Each different technique is suited for a different style of glass imo.

Thanks again for the tips guys!

[n3rd]

stringers under the color rods? seems a waste of time to me. if the color rods dont fit right, use color rods that do fit right. stringers on top if there is a little extra space like blue lily said. sparkle stringers look nice between black :)

[Titus Glass]

Yeah stringers under color rods would be a total waste. I spend a couple hours pulling stringers of different colors and diameters then I pack the stacks and add those stringers to compliment the colors. On a good day I'll pull 7 in a day. Keep it simple to begin with. Dont add stringers to begin with. I didnt and I found that those stringers are a pain in the ass if not sized perfect. Master the plain vacstack first and then spice it up. If you don't know how or why to do something maybe it's best to take a class and learn firsthand how to perform the technique. That's what I did and it answered every one of my questions, not to mention made me a much better piper.

[sasch74]

Not very experienced As you Know, just an idea: could you Band the color to the Core Tube, attach 2nd blowtube(massive!!) melt in 75%, Put stringers on, gargage at annealing temp, then sleeve with pre-heated Tube? Just because stringers helped me alot doing my First color-only Stick-Stack. Which was a Lot of Fun!

[BlueLilyStudio]

Thanks for the tips, Matt.


Btw....Matt was the first person I saw do a vac stack....he does thm on the bench with 75x5 outer sleeve....fuckin HUGE!

Matt, next time I am heading to the mtns, hopefully we can do a little collab or something..
I'm hoping to make it out there sometime before the dfo

No problem, I hope you can make it into town, give me a call before hand so we can set something up.

[BlueLilyStudio]

stringers under the color rods? seems a waste of time to me. if the color rods dont fit right, use color rods that do fit right. stringers on top if there is a little extra space like blue lily said. sparkle stringers look nice between black :)


Yeah stringers under color rods would be a total waste. I spend a couple hours pulling stringers of different colors and diameters then I pack the stacks and add those stringers to compliment the colors. On a good day I'll pull 7 in a day. Keep it simple to begin with. Dont add stringers to begin with. I didnt and I found that those stringers are a pain in the ass if not sized perfect. Master the plain vacstack first and then spice it up. If you don't know how or why to do something maybe it's best to take a class and learn firsthand how to perform the technique. That's what I did and it answered every one of my questions, not to mention made me a much better piper.

I add the stringers to the inside when I am making things that allow you to see the inside like adding reversals to clear bodies. This allows for double sided pattern work. One of the aspects of the vac stack that I appreciate most is that the tubing is as clean inside as it is outside, so lets take advantage of that. If you pack stringer on top that is drastically different from the stringer you add to the inside, well I'll let you guys figure that one out.
Also I have added stringer to the inside in instances when in order to get the ideal pattern you have to add one skinny stick that looks like it wants to fall down between the larger sticks and you know it will create a different optical effect; two clear stringers under that stick will push it up to where it stays near the surface rather than fall underneath. Also when using dichro putting stringer on top will help the sticks of dichro from turning sideways.

[Destrukt]

^exactly. You can pack whatever your imagination can come up with in a vac stack, but the bottom line is if it isn't tight it might not look so clean. If there is too much wiggle room, tighten it up with something...or use more consistent rods.

[STROKER]

after working with matt a few times i can say that without a doubt he has serious glassblowing skills and when it comes to vacstack: unreal skills.

i watched him do a few pulls by hand out of 75 that were so friggin clean and huge. like 2-3 lbs per pull huge. it will make you re-evaluate what can be done by hand with some mad skills and a pair of rollers.

i keep looking his shit over for defects when i am there and i can say without a doubt that its the nicest tube i have seen anyone make wheter by hand or a lathe.

my pulls are much cleaner due to his teachings. most of us noobs can learn alot from his techs.

[n3rd]

75 is intense! that pic i posted earlier in this thread is 50 into 75.

blue lily: what are dichro sticks?

[BlueLilyStudio]

75 is intense! that pic i posted earlier in this thread is 50 into 75.

blue lily: what are dichro sticks?

dichro strips in the vacstack works better than you'd expect. The dichro really likes the heavy clear cover...bonus use a black inner tube or stripe the clear inner tube with a sparkle color before the tube pull

[IndiePendent]

So this seemed like the appropriate place to post this since it seems to be a good vac stack discussion thread.

So I do most of my vac stacks with Schott 26x4 Inside and Schott 5x50 outside. I have been having a lot of trouble recently fitting 16 color lines around the 26mm inside blank. I am using all GA firsts for my stacks since they seem to be the most consist as far as size goes, however as of late I have repeatedly had to remove a color rod from my stacks just to get them to fit in the sleeve. This of course throws off my patterns. I don't remember having this problem before and am baffled as to what is going on.

Anyone else have this happen? Or have problems with the sleeve? Any suggestions would be much appreciated, 16 color lines is pretty limiting with patterns already, I hate having to remove even 1 line!

[themoch]

get yourself a pair of calipers and measure if your 50x5 is really 50x5... the other thing is i use 25mm tubing not 26...

it's all about the math son!

50x5 leaves you 40mm of inside space.
26 + 7 + 7 = 40mm

with the variation in wall/rod thickness your inside glass is bigger than your tube you're sleeving it inside of... so it wont fit.

[smolder holder]

^^ yup 25mm inner. That extra 1mm is killin ya.

[IndiePendent]

Thanks a bunch Andrew, I am almost sure its the fact that I am using the 26 and not the 25 that is contributing to this problem, that didnt even cross my mind. Repped sir, gracias.

[smolder holder]

I know this has been discussed but indie you can also slide stringers of black, white, or sparkle colors in between your color rods to make it appear like there are double the amount of lines in your pulls.

Try it.....it rules :)

[themoch]

Schott Boro Artistic is HORRIFIC at coming close to the standards of variation.

i've had 50x5 labeled tubes that were actually 48x6

[IndiePendent]

What clear are you rocking for your stacks Andrew? Or Bois? I just used Schott cause thats what EU carried

[themoch]

Schott is good if you're using the regular stuff, and not the Boro Artistic.

i personally have a mix of Simax and Schott... i prefer Simax when i can get my hands on it.

[smolder holder]

Simax for mine but I've used schott with no issues. Maybe I just got a good batch though.

[IndiePendent]

So just from looking around, I couldnt find a Schoot 25mm only the 26 that I already had. And Simax is 25.4mm, is that the stuff your talking about?

[smolder holder]

Simax should have 25x4 for sale. I think I got my last case off of ebay.

[B-Rye-oNeR]

Im trying to find something between the 50-25 , and the 70-44 combos.. I'm thinking maybe 1.25in and 60 something mm . any suggestions?

[themoch]

ummmmm... do the math, do the math!.... do the math, do the math!!!

60x5 outer - (2 x 7) = 36mm... looking at the standard size tubes you could do... 36x2.4

and wha-la!

[kage]

math is your friend

subtract wall thickness x 2 for inner diameter of your sleeve
add rod size x 2 for outer diameter of your core

i just started using 65x3.2 and 44 for my last couple of pulls. worked well.

here's the math.
44 + 7 + 7 = 58
3.2 + 3.2= 6.4
65 - 6.4 ~ 58

[B-Rye-oNeR]

thanks...I have a hard time figuring how many rods will fit around the inner, is my main problem, I'm always a little off on the fit. Just looking for something that someone has used and works well, instead of just buying two random sizes, and not knowing how well they will work...

[B-Rye-oNeR]

Math never really was my friend

[kage]

i don't like math either but its not algebra or calculus.

we're talking basic addition and subtraction. my 6 year old can do this.

i have faith in you beerye. don't get schooled by a 1st grade princess.

[B-Rye-oNeR]

Ha , I am new to stacks, I'm a line drawer. I was thinking more rods would mean you needed more play between the two tubes, fer some reason , but I guess that's not the case. I'm starting to wrap my head around it. Just seems like there would be certain inner sizes you would want to use, because of the # of rods that will fit properly on them.
I haven't really had a successful stick stack, would like to avoid loosing all that color again...My last one went fine except some white sand bubbled right thru the outer sleeve, (only on one line, which was weird... but it was really bad)
Sorry I'm slow....I'm from Cincinnati. Haven't you ever heard we are 10 yrs behind the rest of the world?

[blackink]

If you want to save money, practice with clear and fume. Even the scrap ends look pretty sweet.

[Shatner]

If you want to save money, practice with clear and fume. Even the scrap ends look pretty sweet.

Do you just make the inner bundle w/ clear and fume the whole thing? Then sleeve?

[blackink]

what do you mean "inner bundle"?
core - outside fume
sleeve - inside fume
clear rods
vac-it

[Shatner]

Bundle= inner sleeve with rods bundled around it.

So you fume that and the inside of the outter sleeve?

[B-Rye-oNeR]

thats cool, have you tried it w-out fuming the sleeve,? (just fuming the core,
under the rods)

[Shatner]

thats cool, have you tried it w-out fuming the sleeve,? (just fuming the core,
under the rods)

That might look cool, too.

[blackink]

I've tried a fume stack with too light of a layer on the inside of sleeve that got burnt off when pulling down, and the remaining fume showing from the core was very subtle with faint clear lines, almost looks like a regular sleeved fume section.

[B-Rye-oNeR]

aight one more question, DO you leave the inner tube open on the end to melt the rods / tube together ? And is there any other method besides rubber bands > My rubber bands keep melting before I'm ready to take them off. I was thinking of getting a large hose clamp to hold the rods in place.

[kage]

for a vac stack the core needs to be closed as to not collapse the whole thing into rod. i vac from the sleeve and blow from the core. no need for rubberbands or clamps if you do the math berrye. it should all be nice and snug

[ITIS]

use hair ties the ouchless kind (they have no metal) they are basically ruber bands but they are covered in fabric they last way longer and can handle some heat. ;)

[kage]

ps i do use a rubberband for prepping the rods onto the core, but when i sleeve it, i pull the rubber band all the way back, get about 90% of the rods inside, then remove rubber band before melting

[n3rd]

rubber bands, why? load 6 sticks into the sleeve on your bench, then put the core in, then put the rest of the rods in around the core and warm it up and go.

[B-Rye-oNeR]

damn I wish I lived around glass blowers, this is getting to be annoying, I'm sorry. I was trying to say leave the end on the core open to melt the rods together, then close it up . I know the end needs to be closed to melt it all together, I have done tube vac incasements many times, (I usually draw lines ) WHen I get off probation I'm going on a glass tour, I need to see more than this town has to offer. I have the correct size tubes, 44, and 70...So you guys are doing these right off the bench, with no preheating in the kiln ? ...........sorry guys I struggle, damn my old school drunken teacher!

[B-Rye-oNeR]

By the time I figure this out reversals will REALLY be outta style.....L0L (:

[Swampy]

Re-read post number 10 in this same thread then post questions.

There's some more good posts after that one, if I remember correctly, some particularly good posts by Blue Lily Studio.

[B-Rye-oNeR]

I totally get it now, I did one today with the 44 and 70mm, I need to step it down though , because it took too long , and there is some air in between lines. ...Thanks!

[Swampy]

Welcome. It's all in there somewhere :o)

[kage]

rubber bands, why?

cause my brother in law wants to be a baller, and i make him do prep in exchange for lessons. anything to shave time really

[B-Rye-oNeR]

it all makes sense now! So many methods of doing the same thing, I was getting them all confused. Hp of color or so later, I got it now. I didn't understand that you were starting the meltdown with only one handle on...not used to that. Now I see why the math and fit is soo important. I'm glad that's over, I'm sure u all are as well. I feel like I owe you guys something. MAybe someday I'll be able to give something back. Thanks , peace

[amanofmusic]

wow great thread everyone thank you

[big tom]

I see alot of talk here about rubber bands and hose clamps... marias etc. If you feel you need that stuff.. then go for it, but I just keep the whole deal LEVEL in the begining so that gravity doesn't pull color rods one way or the other. Also spin really slow while tacking the whole giddy-ump together to minimize stuff rattling around. Only takes a sec to get it locked down. Keep paddle in hand in case you have to drop the rods back into position(elbow up with paddle capping tube). Paddle the edge of the outer tube to pinch down on the rods.

AND!! If your having proplems with math just do like me! Invest in a selection of tubing sizes and color sizes. I buy alot of northstar odds. Then just use what actually fits in there. Try to use color rods of the same general size to keep wall thickness in balance. Be sure to gently flare the sleeve and marver the inner tube edge before assembly. Where those ends are fire polished, the wall thickness is increased and that can make getting the perfect fit more difficult.

Where was this thread in 97?

[mwc]

I feel like the only idiot that was able to less this up... 3 times so far with no success.

Prep goes good, I pull tubing, but it always breaks when I go to heat it up to shear it in half after the pull. That gives me a chance to look at the layers once the broken pieces cool, and I always find my inner core isn't melted to the rods good enough, and it leaves a huge long bubble between each rod.

I know the obvious answer is to get it hotter before the vac, but that's what I've done every time and still get the same results. I'll be raging on the end and my 25 heavy core will be soft to the point I'm not able to focus more heat on that far end, but it still seems hot to the core. Every time, before I hit the vac pedal, I make sure the section I've heated is totally soft and molten.

Any advise before I go ruin another one today?

Working on a cc, I'd think itd be plenty enough heat. Last 2 stacks were just fumed clear, too.

[Riley]

how's the vacuum pressure? high, low ?

if it's too high it could be pulling the glass together ahead of your heat, trapping air.

if your using a shop vac maybe try cutting more holes in the hose to lessen the pressure. if its a variable foot pedal setup just push it in less, and it if's a venturi working off a compressor turn the pressure down.

still rocking the homemade venturi over here. cut my color rods to 6.66 ", or 1/3 stock length. 75 with 50mm inside. setup on the lathe cold. melt the end, attach 50 x 9 lipped. rage it, turn on the air to the venturi and adjust so that the tubing isn't being vac'd in too quickly, that way the heat has enough time to get all the way through.

melt across, turn off air. rip off end, place 12mm rod into the chuck, start pulling down 1.5-2 ft sections, when separating the end is blown/popped open, remove from lathe, place in kiln, repeat. if i pulled a shit ton of tubing i would probably rely more heavily on the bench cool, but i find 15 minutes in the kiln before bench cooling helps with a lot of processes including this one.

[n3rd]

if air is trapped its not hot enough, keep the vacuum on and heat it up more. if it's clear shouldn't you be able to see the air getting pulled out?

[mwc]

The vac has relatively high suction I'd say, not a Shop Vac but a Home Depot BucketHead that clips to a 5 gallon bucket. Low amps so low horsepower, but I don't have any relief holes in the hose, just a cork in the end of the hose, with a hole for a blowhose/swivel. I'll try reducing the vacuum some.

With the clear/fume, I fumed pretty heavy any couldnt see all the way through. I could see the top layer getting the air sucked out, but that's it.

I have another sleeve prepped, I'll try it again and let you guys know how it comes out.

Thanks for the help

[B-Rye-oNeR]

may be just moving too fast. keep the heat behind the area you haven't sucked the air out of, and use a sharp focused flame. Do you keep the vac on the whole time , or just when sucking out air? It's a very gradual thing..the heat moving across the tube, dont try to jump ahead of your heat , stay with it as you move it across the tubing. ( I dunno how there's not a vid on here yet)

[Riley]

EA sports, its in the game:
http://vimeo.com/15264232

[n3rd]

full buckethead is too much suction, shoot for half or so. good luck and hit me up if you want a demo

[smolder holder]

Don't be in a hurry with it. Slow and smooth will win the vac stack race. Also you don't need a ton of suction, the glass will close down you just need to give it the time to do so.

GL

[frillcappa]

Sick video riley, Is that you? whoever it is is a pimp for spinnin that big ass v-stack with one hand. lol

[mwc]

I'll put an extra hole in the cork and see how the reduced suction works.

Thanks again everyone, I'll give it a shot tomorrow

[sasch74]

I used my 50mm Herbie plus a 35mm handtorch, helped me a Lot. First only the 50mm to bring Heat to to far end of the Vac. Once i got a nice Heat Base i turn on zthe Vac and Move the 50mm slightly further while i keep the Heat Base in the First Part of the Stack with my Hand torch Stable. Keep the Vac on all the Time, Mine is Not too strong. Slowly work your Way forward the Stack, both Flames Close to each Other. There is absolutely no Rush and you can See the Air getting sucked out of the Stack.
Before trying it I always imagined shit had to Be White Hot all the Time- wrong at this Stage. Get a nice Even orange glow in your Glass and keep cool Till you sucked all Air out. Then turn off the Vac and Build a good Heat Base again, this Time with One torch on each Side of the Stack until it's all molten in smooth.Avoid cool Spots in the Middle. try to make your pull in One go, definetly helps to get a consistent diameter and Wall.
I didn't shear it in the Middle of the pull, just popped a hole in the end while Keeping a compressed Air Flame on the beginning of the Stack. Once the right end is ripped off the sleeve Tube Start Heating the Left Side of the pull and Move it up and down before it Breaks off(Gotta Be ready to catch it though. By that Time the Middle of the pull should Be cool enough to Cut it with your nippers or whatever, just DON'T get Heat on it anymore. Then anneal the pull (at least that's what I do, Love to Be on the Safe Side).

That is all Done on the lathe, haven't tried it any Other Way.

Also I've only Done One Vac-Stack yet, 85x5 outer and 60x5 inner Core, 30 Lines of color. Hot part went very smooth, cold part was time-consuming.I just had the Feeling the 50mm could Not get enough Heat to the Whole Thing, so I used the Hand torch. Gonna Holk up my 65mm Next Time, See if it helps...

I Read Some threads about this technique and Some People say the Herbies are actually Not the Best torches for doing this Kind of prep. So I am considering to get myself an American torch for this.

Any suggestions which One to use?

Sorry for the longwinded Text, Hope it makes a Little Sense!

[n3rd]

herbie's work great for vac stack :)

[Swampy]

I know the obvious answer is to get it hotter before the vac, but that's what I've done every time and still get the same results. I'll be raging on the end and my 25 heavy core will be soft to the point I'm not able to focus more heat on that far end, but it still seems hot to the core. Every time, before I hit the vac pedal, I make sure the section I've heated is totally soft and molten.

Any advise before I go ruin another one today?

Working on a cc, I'd think itd be plenty enough heat. Last 2 stacks were just fumed clear, too.

I find pre-heating the stack in the kiln makes it easier to get heat through to the core tube.

Especially if it's 25.4 hvy, which is one reason I used thinner wall tube for the core. The other reason is that having so much clear material at the centre of the stack, the terminations always had too much clear at the centre. Using a thinner wall tube for the core alleviated that effect, I found.

[Riley]

if you're on a lathe you should try a cradle burner. a bench burner only heats one side of the tube at any moment, creating a gap on the opposite side which is cooler.

a cradle burner combines multiple flames focused into the tubing heating more surface area at once. try a 8 or 10 head 21 jet (10/11n) litton cradle burner, leave the bench torch on the bench.

[Riley]

swampster,
my friend had some samples of the golden gate lined tubing, and they also used thinner wall on their cores. i was hoping to hear some feedback from everyone on if they like the way the tubing works and gathers with the thinner core or thicker. for the sake of time and speed a thinner core would work better, i'm just wondering if there are trade-offs beside smaller yields.

frillcappa,
no the video posted is not me, its erik anders, a long time inspiration and general badass. i got into ringseal bubs almost 7 years ago after seeing pics of his work on gp.org, and altogether quit drop stem bubs and snorkels. dig it.
http://www.glasspipes.org/EAErikAnders

[n3rd]

http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z24/N3RDglass/004-13.jpg

Q5 works too!

[Riley]

sure thing, the q5 has alot of juice.

but whats the 6 head single jet for, flaring capillary tubing ? :D

[n3rd]

its a 6 head 7 jet, ring seals!

[sasch74]

herbie's work great for vac stack :)

I'd just Love to compare! Love my torches!

[KILGORE]

well ive read through this thread many many times... decided to try that shit today.

i think it was absolutely awesome. i did it the way in post #39
http://www.talkglass.com/forum/showpost.php?p=513665&postcount=39

i fucked myself though because like almost heated all the way up i forgot to make a punty to stretch it out! so i ended up grabbing like a foot and a half piece of 34 mil and puntying up that to the vac stack

and it was hard because from the vacuum i had oxygen hose to a 90* swivel, then some ghetto ass tubing, so spinning it was kind of difficult..

im off to buy some hose and blowtube adapters and shit

awesome tech and great info here

thanks everyone!

[KILGORE]

heres my 2nd and 3rd vac stack. still gotta work on tearing the ends and cleaning it up.. buuuuuut

http://i1022.photobucket.com/albums/af348/KILGOREglass/DSC08009.jpg
http://i1022.photobucket.com/albums/af348/KILGOREglass/DSC08005.jpg

few things i want to add.... if you're doing it this way http://www.talkglass.com/forum/showpost.php?p=513665&postcount=39

- make sure the end is completely sealed up before you turn the vacuum on so heat doesn't get sucked down the blowtube.... learned that the hard way
- what i like to do is leave the core tube a little longer than the rest so i can kind of flare it out and seal it over

[smolder holder]

^^that last comment is KEY! That will save you a bunch of headaches.

[Coal]

A friend was over sat night, he said lets do some vac stacks..... i thought what the hell lets do it...... end result, ima vac stackin supper machine and its ON!

really tho, nice pulls Kilgore, vac stacks sure make a nice product.

[KILGORE]

tyty

first I tried the sticks around a graphite rod via rubber band into 50mm and that tech didn't go well. then I tried the way kilgroth explained on page one, then I tried this last way and it was absolutely the best IMO.

the fucking info I get on here man.... unfuckingbelievable

[Lub]

Hey yea'll vac stacks are bomb beezy! I hav done 2 before, while working for someone else. Then I tried 3 since then in my own shop and the outer 50x5 always blows up so i lose interest. Is there a practical way to do it so you can kiln everything? The way I was taught (By Darby actually) was to assemble your layers all cold, on the table, then just go for it......he might of annealed the outer sleeve and let it cool off before hand. But I love this tech, just hate the fact that it starts at room temp.

[Lub]

For anyone who feels like reading, and dissecting my technique, here goes: So I use 26x4 inside of 50x5 with whatever rods fit within....i think it'd go better with 25x4 or 50x4. It's a tight fit. Anywho, I just pull a mad thick point on the 50x5 as I can get it straighter than a blowtube weld. I put the 26mm on a blowtube, however. Say I'm cutting my color to 4inch length, I prep maybe 5-6 inches of the inner tube. This way you don't vaporize your blowtube when you initially melt the outer sleeve down over everything else. Also, as for prep of the inner tube, I create a maria to hold shit in place. So say it's a 6inch inner tube, with only 4inch of color going over it, put your maria 2 inches away from your blowtube so when you start sliding rods in they get caught on it, and when you go to melt the outer sleeve down, it will meet up to the maria way faster than if nothing were there. The one issue I have, which I can never really figure out, is if you want your inner tube closed on the end (Not the blowtube end opening but the other end) because if it is closed on the inside of the 50x5, you get better suction, but after you heat it and stretch it all out, you have a large pull on two handles, only one of which actually has airflow to the other end, so you CAN'T just flame cut your whole pull in half, gotta nip it. But yeah, that's how I prep mine out. once i get the outer sleeve melted down to my maria, i flip the fan on and keeeeep raging. honestly, 10 tries TOPS you should be a champ.

[B-Rye-oNeR]

the trick is to NOT handle up your inner tube at all, during the prep. Just handle on outer, slide in color/inner tube . It's gotta fit snug., Have another handle ready on a sm pc of 1in tube (open at the end) that will act as a collar. Now you have your stack all preassembled on one handle, attach your vac and stick that mother in the kiln. Take it out and marver down the end tacking your rods to the core, and sealing up the layers/rods. You want to keep the inner core open so you can attach your collar, it also helps to have a blowhose attached to your collar/handle, so you can even out the seal. Attach collar and begin to melt/vac.
...Reread this whole thread...I had to go back through it a few times before I got it.

[Lub]

I mean I guess I get that technique, and am not opposed to trying it. But I literally had a demo from darby and just trying to follow what he said. He did not do that....he did basically exactly what I described. So when you do it that way the inner tube is still closed on the one end, and open on the other (Open where you weld your collar to eventually).....i guess i'll do some more reading though

[KILGORE]

here's my sequence. might do a pictorial later just because

- put a blowtube on a 4 inch piece of 50 with the end open. put In kiln

- put a blowtube on a one inch piece of 50 (you'll attach this to the open end of vacstack to puff it out and pull it down) throw in kiln

- use claw crabbers to hold on a closed end piece of 26 (or w/e the core is) and heat up 5 inches from end, blow bubble and tear it open so it's like this c=== the make sure its an even piece and use tweezers to place in kiln by bead door

- cut all your color rods 4 inches and assemble pattern that you'll want

- take 50 with blowtube out of kiln and place 6 or so color rods inside on the bottom

- use tweezers to take out the 26 core tube and place on the 6 color rods

- put the rest of the color rods around the 26 core

- introduce into the flame (not intense flame) and flare the extra inch of the 26 core up and over the color rods to the 50 sleeve

- blow into the blowtube to make sure everything is airtight and no air escapes

- start meltin and vac'in

- once it's all melted and vacuumed together attach the one inch piece of 50 in the kiln and blow to puff it out a little and pull down

- cut it how u want and kiln finished product

[Majestic glass]

you can just do all the prep first then stick it in the kiln no point on heating it up before eveything is ready then you have to work with a core glass and your putting cold sticks of glass on hot ya no good just prep cold stick it all put together in the kiln why easier do them all the time

[smolder holder]

Hey yea'll vac stacks are bomb beezy! I hav done 2 before, while working for someone else. Then I tried 3 since then in my own shop and the outer 50x5 always blows up so i lose interest. Is there a practical way to do it so you can kiln everything? The way I was taught (By Darby actually) was to assemble your layers all cold, on the table, then just go for it......he might of annealed the outer sleeve and let it cool off before hand. But I love this tech, just hate the fact that it starts at room temp.

After you get it all ready cold throw it in a cold kiln and bring it up to temp in there before putting it to the flame.

Edit: it goes quicker that way too since your blank is already hot. Less time, less gas, more profit.

[KILGORE]

I've had no problems doing what I posted as far as cold glass on hot glass. gotta do it if you go to your bench to do a vac stac snd you have nothing prepped

[smolder holder]

Just weld your blowtube onto the 50 blank, benchcool. Prepare your innertube- i make a round tip with two nubs of clear on the side ends to insure your outer tube doesn't close up before you finish vac-ing. Score the innertube and use a hot rod to stress and seperate at the score.

Cold and ready to prep for stack.

[Lub]

Yeah Boiseno, the prob/reason i could NOT do that is cuz I was using the core piece on a blowtube. can't assemble it cold and put it in the kiln if there's a blowtube on both sides. But I did 3 tonight this way, where your core tube is not on a blowtube....Not gonna lie I like it much better. But yo kilgore, are you actually saying you melt the entire 4 inch section down with only one handle the whole time and only put a second blowtube/collar on once it's all vac'd out and ready to be stretched? That seems hard. to get that much tube hot with one handle.

[KILGORE]

I try to for the most part just... work on maintained spinnging and balancing and whatnot

I also just made a roller type deal outta some leftover graphite from that bulk eBay deal and that made it SOOOOOO much easier

[smolder holder]

Oh, yeah that seems like it would complicate the process. Glad you liked the other tech, thats what works best for me.

[Swampy]

Yeah Boiseno, the prob/reason i could NOT do that is cuz I was using the core piece on a blowtube. can't assemble it cold and put it in the kiln if there's a blowtube on both sides. But I did 3 tonight this way, where your core tube is not on a blowtube....Not gonna lie I like it much better. But yo kilgore, are you actually saying you melt the entire 4 inch section down with only one handle the whole time and only put a second blowtube/collar on once it's all vac'd out and ready to be stretched? That seems hard. to get that much tube hot with one handle.

Build your stack like the man just said in post #228, put it in the kiln.

Don't attach your inner blowtube until you seal the end of your stack.

lol at these long tech threads where it's been explained already and you miss it :o) Just take your time, it's all in there, where pictures even :o)

[Lub]

I just did not get/believe that was practical or preferred or whatever. But once I tried it I was way down. Still only done 6 in my life, but I'm getting it. It's just funny, I've gone through hundreds of tubes of the golden gate stuff and alchemy stuff....can make decent reversals fairly quickly, but can't pull my own line tube.....needs to be remedied.

[B-Rye-oNeR]

Just tried my first 70mm vac stack on a friends lathe. It went okay , but about halfway through it got the worst devit I've ever seen, (While I was doing the vac/meltdown ) it looked like it was literally covering the rods inside, and I'm pretty sure there is no way to get rid of it. Got some usable tube and was a good learning experience, luckily I used half clear, and it was a fairly sm section.
This was my first experience with a cradle burner, I usually just use a big hand torch that kinda looks like a red max major ( I think dude bought it off someone here) Not sure if I just had the wrong flame chemistry or what but it really fucked up about half the pull.
Any tips for lathe vac stacks> ? .... Not sure where I went wrong, What kinda torch/flame are you using on 70mm lathe stacks? any advice would be hella appreciated, peace.

[BlueLilyStudio]

Just tried my first 70mm vac stack on a friends lathe. It went okay , but about halfway through it got the worst devit I've ever seen, (While I was doing the vac/meltdown ) it looked like it was literally covering the rods inside, and I'm pretty sure there is no way to get rid of it..... Not sure where I went wrong, What kinda torch/flame are you using on 70mm lathe stacks? any advice would be hella appreciated, peace.

the problem you are having is due to skuzz inside the tube, you really have to clean the tube and rods so that you don't have that problem.

[B-Rye-oNeR]

Word, it really started to fill with condensation as i stared to melt/vac, could that have anything to do with it ? ?, I did try to clean everything , but coulda done a better job of it . Thanks alot !

[BlueLilyStudio]

Word, it really started to fill with condensation as i stared to melt/vac, could that have anything to do with it ? ?, I did try to clean everything , but coulda done a better job of it . Thanks alot !

yes this is exactly the problem, the condensation is creating the scuzz. You also have to clean the tube while it is relatively cool because otherwise it won't get clean enough. I use window cleaner and paper towels to clean my tubes. The cleaner causes the residue to leave the microscopic crevices in the glass and is replaced with the cleaning product which evaporates. Even clean looking glass can make a very dirty paper towel after a few wipe downs. Then its loaded and straight into the kiln so it doesn't get moisture or more dust and contamination in the tube.

[STROKER]

^^^listen to this man when it comes to vacstacs.
i have watched matt make a 75mm vacstac that weighed 3 lbs look very easy and the end product is as perfect as i have seen.

clean glass is for sure essential.

[B-Rye-oNeR]

thanks, I used some 38mm as a handle for the 70 mm to keep the core and the rods in place, when I was doing the seal between these two tubes is when the condensation happened. And I also cleaned with water when the tube was still fairly warm. So I guess that pretty much explains it.

I know using the 38mm as a handle was probably not necessary, but I couldn't figure out another way to keep the rods/core from moving inside the tube.

thanks for the response. It was sooo nice doing the SS on the lathe, and not hugging and turning a huge pc of glass for half an hr.

[ITIS]

Just tried my first 70mm vac stack on a friends lathe. It went okay , but about halfway through it got the worst devit I've ever seen, (While I was doing the vac/meltdown ) it looked like it was literally covering the rods inside, and I'm pretty sure there is no way to get rid of it. Got some usable tube and was a good learning experience, luckily I used half clear, and it was a fairly sm section.
This was my first experience with a cradle burner, I usually just use a big hand torch that kinda looks like a red max major ( I think dude bought it off someone here) Not sure if I just had the wrong flame chemistry or what but it really fucked up about half the pull.
Any tips for lathe vac stacks> ? .... Not sure where I went wrong, What kinda torch/flame are you using on 70mm lathe stacks? any advice would be hella appreciated, peace.


the problem you are having is due to skuzz inside the tube, you really have to clean the tube and rods so that you don't have that problem.



This is not devit, you are trapping the water in there and that is the scuzz you are seeing. Best way to get rid of it, is to pre-heat the whole thing before you begin. I use a modified toaster oven to bring it all up to 350-400 deg F. before it even goes on the lathe. This ensures that the air inside is dry. since water evaporates (becomes vapor) at, or just slightly above it's boiling point.

(The water vapor is from atmospheric humidity. When you cork the tube, seal it and apply vacuum, the gas inside the tube is no longer exchanged (what is inside, stays inside, mostly). All this water vapor from the air is still inside there and has no where to go. It is a closed system (no air exchange). It gets hot, the water evaporates but it is still in there. This vapor then gets trapped and leaves little tiny ity bity water bubbles and produces what I coined "The Disco Fog")


One other thing that might help, if you don't want to pre-heat. When you notice the condensation building up release the pressure and un-cork the tube to let some of the steam out.

Cleaning it really well is a good idea too, but ...... well it is not as crucial as one might expect.

Cheers & good luck.
-Austin

[B-Rye-oNeR]

makes sense, I've never seen it on a pull I've done by hand, which I always preheat. Thanks to both of you for the great advice. My next lathe pull will yield much better. peace.

[chayes]

It's not water vapor causing the problem, it aint dirty tube, and it sure aint mcdonalds grease. Think about how glass actually works is all I'm gonna say.

[B-Rye-oNeR]

:puzzled:

[Lmwfy]

It's not water vapor causing the problem, it aint dirty tube, and it sure aint mcdonalds grease. Think about how glass actually works is all I'm gonna say.

even though there's no real answer here, I'm inclined to agree..