Getting started...

[dankbudz]

Well I've been dreaming about getting started with lampworking for about a year now and I'm finally getting there. I bought a piece when I was in college and after that I was just hooked... I've never actually tried it before but... whatever... gotta do something with my life and this feels like something for me. Also getting a 4800 dollar scholarship so maybe I can go to school and learn some more in about ten months. I was reading the forum hippi posted just recently and I'm starting to get a much clearer idea of what I need to get. As far as the torch and kiln goes, I could really use some help picking something out that's going to work for me. I mostly want to make pipes but would also like getting into sculptures. I'd like to just spend the money now to get something that I'll use for a long time so some suggestions would be great! I wish there was just a general list for the 420 guys :P ... not to make us all look lazy! Anyways... I'll have about 1200 to start with so the kiln will have to wait like another month...but if I could start getting everything together now... perfect... Any help would be appreciated... thanks!

[hippi]

i priced out everything i think i would need i went with the redmax torch and price came out to 754 for torch and all tools so youd have enough to get a nice kiln if you have 1200...

[dankbudz]

Nice... I decided to go with the Red Max too... I've just read way too much good stuff about it for the price. Do you know what the premix is for the top burner on the Red Max or is it just a safe bet to go with the mega minor on it? Do you have everything set up or are you not quite that far yet? Ive been shopping around trying to find some good prices on things. There is an airgas here... I'm thinking that might be the cheapest+easiest+quickest way to go for all of the propane and oxygen stuff but I'm not too sure... was planning on checking it today. Also like I said, planning on making pipes so does anyone know what some good glass options would be to start out with. I'm pretty sure if you buy online you can just call the company and be like... I need x amount of money worth of glass for making pipes... hook me up... and theyll just pick out stuff for you but I'd rather just know what a good assortment would be to work with and how much I should spend . Especially when it comes to the clear tubing...
Also... good kiln under $1000 with decent dimensions...any ideas?

Thanks for the reply hippi

[HOSS]

Airgas is almost never the cheapest, but quickest and easiest maybe. Smaller local places are usually cheaper on oxy.

Personally I like the premix top for the redmax better than the minor, because it has interchangeable tips and you can fill in some of the gap in the max's range of flames by switching to a larger one when you need to. Fuming is also a little easier to learn on a premix

I think a good selection of glass to start with would be 5, 10, and 16 mil clear rod, 12, 16, 20 and 25 mil tube (heavy wall), and color samplers from as many companies as you can afford.

For a kiln I went with a jen-ken chillipepper (about $500) and haven't regretted it. Its got enough space for largish work (6x6x12), a top-hinged door which helps when you get to doing sectional stuff, and doesn't use a ton of power. The only thing I dont like about it is the fiber blanket interior which starts breaking down pretty quick and gets on everything, but you can fix that pretty easily with some "rigidizer" (use the search for more info on that).

Good luck!

[ModderXtr]

Yeah I rent my tank it's 5 a month and 15 per refil for a bigass tank thats as tall as me. You can definitely find deals if you look around

[dankbudz]

Wow, ok ...lots of questions
Hoss- With the Red Max you have the option of getting the premix, minor, or major minor on the top... when you said "minor" did you mean major minor? haha...wow...interesting sentence

also... with the clear rods and tubes...how many should I get...or how many pounds...?

and... do they make pretty nice kilns then... i found a GS-11/6 for $485 ... its 11x11x6...how does that sound?

ModderXtr- So do you pay 15 to rent the oxy and then 15 to rent propane?

Whats the best...most affordable way to go about dealing with the tanks and regulators and hoses... ? I plan on working like... at least an average of 3-4 hours a day

[HOSS]

The only "stock" options I can remember seeing for the red max is either premix or surface mix... whether the surface mix version is actually called a "minor" or "major minor", I don't know. I could be wrong about that, never owned the surface mix kind or known anyone who did.

With the clear you'll definitely want a lot of the 5mm rod, you'll probably go through a lot of it no matter what you're making, its used almost like a disposable tool. I'd start with at least 50 pieces of it. The 10mm rod is for punties, which is like a handle... you'll eat it up but more slowly than the 5. You could also try a little 7 or 8mm for that, sometimes a smaller handle is better. The thick rod is for making stuff like marbles and pendants, if you're wanting to do a lot of that, get a few each of various sizes between 16 and 25, and see what you like best. If you plan to stick mainly with pipes, maybe not so much of the thick rod.

How much of the tube to get depends on what you want to focus on, the 12mm is good for blowtubes and small hitters, 16mm is the size I prefer for bigger hitters, and you can make spoons on 20, 22, and 25. It might be a little easier starting with smaller tube at first and working your way up.

The only thing I don't like about that kiln is that its a top loader, which would be fine at first but when you start doing sectional work on blowtubes, you'll want something with a "doggy door" on the front so your blowtube stays cool and the piece stays hot.

You can buy a small propane tank (like the BBQ grill kind) at most any grocery store, hardware store etc. for about $40, and get it refilled at the same kinds of places for maybe $15 or so. You won't use as much propane as oxygen, a BBQ tank should last a couple of weeks easy. Oxygen goes quick, you should rent at least 2 and maybe 3 or 4 tanks at a time, and get the empties refilled when you start on the last one. You can either drive them to the oxy place yourself or pay a fee (probably $20 or so) to have them bring you new ones.

[dankbudz]

Ok another couple of questions then... What size glass would you use for a pretty decent size bubbler?

When you talk about the oxygen... do you have to rent out a tank or can you buy the tanks? I'm under the impression that you have to rent a huge tank from them. How long do these big tanks last? Are they heavy as hell? If I was planning on doing it in my basement is it too much to take down steps?

Does having all of this stuff make your house insurance go up? If so how much?

I also don't understand what you mean about the blowtube? I guess I just can't think of an instance where you would need the blowtube if you were working on a piece with a few parts... couldnt you just finish it completely? If not couldnt you just take it off and then reapply it after or is this something thats difficult to do. Maybe I just dont get it at all...

Thanks for all of your help HOSS... you have no idea how much more quickly im absorbing this.

[HOSS]

AAAAGH! I just lost a long detailed reply that took me like an hour, god damn auto logout! :tantrum:

Sorry, I've got to get to bed, maybe someone else can help you out or I can try again tomorrow. :wes:

[dankbudz]

ha...damn, alright thanks

[Pogo]

Ok another couple of questions then... What size glass would you use for a pretty decent size bubbler?
No offense at all given here, but you are a LONG way from a bubbler
(me, too, i'm fairly newb also.... Trust me that you'll want to spend the time to learn onies and spoons until they are shaped well before moving on to anything sectional...)



When you talk about the oxygen... do you have to rent out a tank or can you buy the tanks? I'm under the impression that you have to rent a huge tank from them. How long do these big tanks last? Are they heavy as hell? If I was planning on doing it in my basement is it too much to take down steps?
You can buy a tank from your supply store, and it can be as big or little as you want. I've got a tiny one that was for an HVAC linemans cutting kit that's like a foot tall and 5" around.... I've also got a big one that's almost as tall as me and 10" or 12" around.... they come in many sizes, and of course the bigger it is the longer it will last. (on a side note you get volume discounts, so it's cheaper in the long haul to fill larger tanks, and they last longer) How long do they last? depends on your torch, your usage, etc.... Just trust that it will last long enough to melt some shit and spark your addicition.... as you play you will learn what your usage is.... Yeah, A full one can be kinda heavy, but if there is a will there is a way :)



Does having all of this stuff make your house insurance go up? If so how much?

What Insurance doesn't know won't hurt them.... Seriously though, If you are renting, staying with others, etc... Let 'em know you play with fire :D
(If you don't like that answer, call your insurance company... These guys are glassblowers, not ins. agents :D)



I also don't understand what you mean about the blowtube? I guess I just can't think of an instance where you would need the blowtube if you were working on a piece with a few parts... couldnt you just finish it completely? If not couldnt you just take it off and then reapply it after or is this something thats difficult to do. Maybe I just dont get it at all...
OK I'll give this one a go.... go to you tube and look for videos on "Pulling Points" (do this now, so maybe this will make sense... you may also want to watch a video on making a simple spoon).... When using a point to make, a spoon, lets say, the thin part (handle) is the blow tube... It's the tube you blow through to puff the molten ball of glass on the end out... (hence "blowing glass") You might heat some up and blow to form a ball that will be the head of a spoon, or blowing might just be to keep the walls from collapsing on themselves...
You can either pull points, or weld smaller tube on larger tube.... there are pros and cons to each method, and which is better is the topic of much debate.. My suggestion is learn both and see what works for you... also, read why everyone decides their method is better.



Thanks for all of your help HOSS... you have no idea how much more quickly im absorbing this.
Even what you think you know changes a lot... keep absorbin' and studyin' and try to get some hands on... It'll come in time.... The learning curve is ridiculous, but well worth it... Keep at it and Good Luck!!!!! :D

[dankbudz]

Thanks Sideshow,
To address a few things... I know I'm far from doing work on bubblers...or anything that might be considered art. What I was saying is that I want to purchase a kiln that I'll still be able to use when I get there. I've done my research and I know that "the size of your work is really only limited by the size of your annealer" I need something that will last me at least a few years. I don't plan on having a significant amount of money anytime before that... unless my stock keeps increasing exponentially.... (we need an emoticon with a smiley praying)

When you say you have an oxygen tank thats as tall as you. I don't know how that works for other states but I'm positive in Michigan it's illegal to actually own one because it's considered private property... so if you received it from somebody...it was stolen...but you might have just meant that youre renting it.

As far as the insurance thing goes. I'll be living with the parents for another ten months and that was one of there concerns. I was asking because I figured there would be people on here with experiece dealing with it...not because I thought I thought anybody on here was an insurance agent.

Also, that doesn't answer my question about blowtubes... why would it be in my advantage to have a kiln with a doggy door when working on pieces with sections... because if a blowtube could be easily reapplied if needed or if you could just finish shaping it before putting it in the kiln, why would you need to keep the blowtube cool? Does this make sense?

[Pogo]

When you say you have an oxygen tank thats as tall as you. I don't know how that works for other states but I'm positive in Michigan it's illegal to actually own one because it's considered private property... so if you received it from somebody...it was stolen...but you might have just meant that youre renting it.

nah I own it... Know lots of folks that own theirs, also... Maybe is a state thing...
I've also got this HUGE prop bottle I own and you used to be able to buy them locally... Now, They are nonexistent around here, but my uncle still sees them for sale every year when he travels to Minnesota for Xmas...



..not because I thought I thought anybody on here was an insurance agent.

Sorry if that seemed like i was being an asshole... you asked how much it would cost, which obviously would vary state to state much like fuelgases... also, I put this little guy on the end ->:D



Also, that doesn't answer my question about blowtubes... why would it be in my advantage to have a kiln with a doggy door when working on pieces with sections... because if a blowtube could be easily reapplied if needed or if you could just finish shaping it before putting it in the kiln, why would you need to keep the blowtube cool? Does this make sense?

reattaching a blowtube is of course possible, but may cause undesired effects in your work (The less you work a piece the better(does that make sense???)) like warping a "shaped" section, or adding a clear gap at the end of a reversal section... picking a piece out of the kiln with grabbers directly on axis might prove slightly difficult also...

I'll let someone else chime in here....




I just realized how steep the learning curve is; all over this thread alone is a ton of "does that make sense?" meaning that this stuff is easier shown in person\video than explained as words on a screen.
Good Luck!!!

[hippi]

The only "stock" options I can remember seeing for the red max is either premix or surface mix... whether the surface mix version is actually called a "minor" or "major minor", I don't know. I could be wrong about that, never owned the surface mix kind or known anyone who did..



the red max has 3 choices... the pre mix top fire, and the surface mix top fire but they also have another option where you can get the nortel mega minor as a top fire as well.. i was thinkin of the mega minor top fire cause its capabnle of a bigger flame then the regular minor and it also can do pin point flames..

i was also figuring that if i didnt get a redmax id get the cuda, the cudas main flame and the center fire are both surface mix..so i thought if i decided on the redmax i might as well get the mega minor surface mix....right?

[HOSS]

Sounds like an interesting option, makes sense that it would be better I'd like to try one of those out one day. Thanks for the info!

[dankbudz]

Aha... So I do half way know what I'm talking about.... YESSS! :bounce

[HOSS]

When you talk about the oxygen... do you have to rent out a tank or can you buy the tanks? I'm under the impression that you have to rent a huge tank from them. How long do these big tanks last? Are they heavy as hell? If I was planning on doing it in my basement is it too much to take down steps?



Ok, so, you can get oxy in many different size tanks... there are two basic kinds, compressed gas and liquid. Liquid oxy tanks are generally huge, like REALLY huge... close to 6 foot tall, 2 or 3 feet wide... I'd guess about 4 or 5 hundred pounds (full). No way they're going down up and down any stairs. There are other issues with using them too, starting with the fact that most companies won't deliver them to residences, and even if they will they need to have a cement foundation, etc etc... so don't even consider those for now.

The compressed gas tanks go from little portable ones up to the kind most welders and glassblowers use... I guess some of these guys saying they're as tall as they are must be pretty short, because the biggest I can get from Airgas is about 5 feet tall. :D You can't just carry them around but they are pretty easy to move with a dolly, just make sure they're strapped in. I'm sure its possible to get them up and down stairs, there are probably people here who have done it, but if you can leave them outside (maybe in a small tool shed or something), and just run the hoses down to the basement, you will save yourself a lot of hassle. And you'll have to keep your propane outside anyway, its not safe to leave it indoors (in case of a leak, or a fire.)

As far as owning vs. renting, you have been misinformed about not being able to own them... the state you're in doesn't matter, people buy and sell them every day. You should be able to buy them straight from the oxy supplier if you're worried about them being stolen. But the way it usually works is you don't actually end up keeping the same tank that you buy. When you sign up with an oxygen company, if you have your own tanks they will check the markings to make sure its inspection is current and its not stolen, then when you need more oxy they will trade those tanks out for some of their own, and keep doing that until you close your account. So the ones you'll end up with at the end won't be the ones you started with, but they'll be the same kind. If you sign up with a different company, they'll check to make sure they're legit and you start again. It may sound strange, but that's just how its done.




because if a blowtube could be easily reapplied if needed or if you could just finish shaping it before putting it in the kiln, why would you need to keep the blowtube cool? Does this make sense?


IF it could be reapplied easily, I'm sure that's what people would do. But out of the hundreds of blowers here who do hollow sectional work, I don't think you'll find one person who does this by choice, because it is NOT easy, or quick, or practical... in many cases, it just wouldn't work at all. If you have no other choice, and if the piece is very simple, it can theoretically be done in a pinch... I tried it a few times in my early days, because all we had was a ceramics kiln. But I promise you, when you get to that point you WILL want a front-loader.

There are so many excellent reasons for this I don't even know where to start, and if you were to watch someone put together even a relatively simple multi-section piece, you would understand right away. One of the things you probably aren't getting is that while you are working on one area of a largish piece, the areas that aren't in the flame will cool down very quickly (5-10 minutes, max). And if you put something that has had time to cool down back into the flame without reheating the whole thing in the kiln again first, that is pretty much guaranteed to cause it to crack. Because of this, while shaping and assembling the parts of even a simple bubbler with just a few sections, you will need to go in and out of the kiln a minimum of 5 or 6 times... for a moderately complex piece it could easily be more like 20, 30... If you are reattaching your blowtubes each time, that will probably take you at least 5 minutes each time (many good reasons for this, like I said it is NOT as easy as you assume), and that time comes out of the time you have to work on the piece before it cools off... So without even knowing the complications involved in removing and re-welding your blowtubes, hopefully you can see how this could quickly turn into a nightmare.

Now you might be thinking, "Well then I can just leave the lid of my top-loader cracked open a little bit and put the piece in with the tube sticking up out of the crack.".... But that won't work either. This is because heat travels upwards, so if the blowtube isn't horizontal or angled slightly downwards, it will get too hot to hold very quickly.

So with all that in mind, I will again recommend the chillipepper as a good option. It is about the same price as the one you linked to, and besides having a very wide front door, it would actually give you MORE room inside... I know I said it was only 12" wide, but that was wrong.. it is actually more like 16. If you angle the piece corner to corner, it can hold something even longer than that. I have made quite a few large bubblers in mine, some of which you can see in the gallery link in my profile if you want.

Another good choice is the AIM 99LSD. It costs a little more and it isn't as wide but it has a taller door, which is nice... quite a few people here use them. I believe they also have at least one larger model under $1000. There is also the paragon Bluebird, which is shaped like the chillipepper, maybe a bit larger (the XL is for sure), but the inside is kiln brick instead of fiber blanket so it is more durable. They probably also have something similar to the 99lsd in the same price range.

So, I hope that helps clear some things up a bit... I think at this point the best piece of advice anyone could give you would be before you start buying stuff and setting up your studio, go watch someone doing this kind of work for a little while, get a better idea whats involved... maybe even try it out. In Michigan it should be easy, there's a whole crew of guys from there on this forum, and some of them do really top-notch work. It may cost you something for their time, but I am sure it would be more than worthwhile. Like Sideshow said, some things are just so much easier to explain when you can see it in person.

Good luck! :peace:

[dankbudz]

You seriously have no idea how much I would love to watch somebody work but there is nothing around the town I live in in Michigan. Ha ... I live like 7 and a half hours from detroit. Way up in the upper penninsula, nobody does anything here :P ... If anybody is anywhere near dickinson county let me know! It's a trap here. This is what I chose to do to escape! Ill try checkin more on youtube and stuff but ive already watched so much. Thanks again though!

[dankbudz]

Hey guys, just wanted to add in that this week I got my bench almost set up. Ventilation is almost there. Glass, torch, and tools came in the mail today. Should be purchasing all gas equipment within the next week. Now all I need is to get it all together and get some hours in! Hopefully I'll be able to afford a kiln within the next two months :( .....but I'm getting there!

[berning]

it's a slippery slope. have fun and keep us posted