Apprenticeship - The ideal situation (teachers prospective)

[earthdrum]

Are you currently a teacher, want to be a teacher, or were you a teacher of a lampworking apprenticeship program? What do you consider the idea yet fair agreement to be in with the student whom you have brought you under your wing?

[kage]

Private lessons only @ $50 an hour :tongue2:

[masterglaster]

Those that are serious and sincere about learning, can take classes, read books, watch videos, and participate in internet exchanges. Those that are serious and sincere about teaching, can teach classes, write books, produce videos, and participate in internet exchanges.

Apprenticeship learning is more likely preferred by someone that wants to have their hand held through the learning experience instead of making the effort to learn on their own. Apprenticeship teaching is more likely preferred by someone looking for cheap or free labour.

There are many good reasons why apprenticeships have all but disappeared in all trades. They are no longer needed.

[Campy]

I call bullshit....Glass aprrenticeships help people out alot, i could use one myself

[masterglaster]

I call bullshit....Glass aprrenticeships help people out alot, i could use one myself

What is it you need to learn that you can't learn without becoming an apprentice?

[AWhiskeyDrunk]

What is it you need to learn that you can't learn without becoming an apprentice?

Probably nothing, but I would guess the difference is the speed at which you learn things. I'm pretty much self taught. I was lucky enough to take a class and attend AGI..plus a couple demos and Flame-Offs here and there. But for me it's been mostly time on torch.

I think I would've probably gotten to the point I'm at now a lot faster with a teacher. I can see an advantage of having somebody correct you, rather than making the same mistake over and over til you get it right. (Of course there's also an advantage to the true understanding of figuring somethings out)

Of course there is the internet forums and countless vids on youtube and what not, but I know for me at least, glass is very visual and sometimes I just need somebody right there showing me before a technique really clicks.

.02

Matt

sorry to thread jack this should probably be in the student perspective post..if anywhere.

[NUBBLET]

if for nothin else having someone in the shop with you can be VERY motivating . An apprentice would be a fair choice for that . I have now been approached enough times that I am considering an apprenticeship or student of some sort .

I to am self taught been to 1 collab (Katrina Victims) and have the intardnet , but never a class or anyone showing me tricks or ......... I would have to say if I had a teacher I would have progressed WAY faster (I didnt even know hard and soft glass types or anything) . I too will say that my style is MINE because of this , I find this a double edged sword though limited techs or whatever but a fresh outlook .

[Bo Diddles]

There are many good reasons why apprenticeships have all but disappeared in all trades. They are no longer needed.

All trades? Would you care to expand? I work in construction, and this is certainly news to me.
What exactly are you basing this statement on?

Sorry about the thread jacking.

FWIW, I also would like to hear some viewpoints on how to handle apprentices, as this pertains to my situation as well.

[masterglaster]

All trades? Would you care to expand? I work in construction, and this is certainly news to me.
What exactly are you basing this statement on?

Sorry about the thread jacking.

FWIW, I also would like to hear some viewpoints on how to handle apprentices, as this pertains to my situation as well.

Perhaps it's different in the US (or at least in some states) where perhaps it is necessary to take an apprenticeship to acquire trade certification but hasn't been necessary anywhere in Canada for about 20 years. All that's needed is to pass the trades exam. To qualify to take the exam, you either take a 2 year trades college course or get certification that you have worked in that trade for a specified number of hours (different in each trade). The only tradespeople that take an apprenticeship are union and union is now only about 10% of construction.

I'm basing this statement on considerable experience working with tradespeople in many different trades (including construction). At least in Canada, there is no trade certification that can't as easily be obtained without apprenticing. I expect it's equally easy to get non-union trade certification in the US. Apprenticeship is only needed if you want into the union and the ratio of union to non-union is steadily declining in favour of more independant self-employed trades people - who almost always earn a helluva lot more then union jobs pay.

Whatever construction trade you hope to go into, there are exactly the same education options available as there are for glass. It takes no longer (often less time) to do it without apprenticing. For example, it takes 4 years apprenticeship to become a journeyman glazier but if you just work in the industry (either by just doing glass work or by working as a glazier's helper) you need only work about 18 months before you can challenge the trades exam. Pass the exam and you're certified. Exactly the same applies for all construction trades. That's why pretty much all the fire fighters have become certified plumbers or electricians or mechanics. They do small contract jobs on off shift days then when they have enough hours booked they take the exam.

Few tradespeople (union or non-union) are willing to take on an apprentice because the contractual commitment is a huge PITA. Instead, they'll just hire a helper. Once that helper has sufficient time on the job, the helper is entitled to challenge the trades exam. If they pass the exam, they become a journeyman. In Canada, the non-union non-apprentice certification is called "Interprovincial" and is good everywhere in Canada. The union journeyman certification is considered to be lower standard and is recognized only in the province it's issued in. It's my understanding there are similar state only restrictions on American journeyman certifications. I don't know if there is an American national certification similar to the Canadian one.

EDITED TO ADD .....

Here's the quick and easy way to get trades certification with apprenticing.

1. Put an ad in the Trades section of your local paper and take jobs in your chosen trade or take a job as a helper to someone in your chosen trade.
2. Keep records of each job and the time spent on each.
3. If a permit (building, electrical, plumbing, etc.) is needed, take it out in the owner's name.
4. Study.
5. Study some more.
6. When you think you've studied enough, and you have sufficient hours, apply to take the exam.

[HOSS]

Definitely not true for ALL trades. In the tattoo business, there is no acceptable way to get started except an apprenticeship. Its not like glass or most other things where teaching yourself or "learning on the job" is a viable option, for obvious reasons (not that people don't try.) No remotely reputable shop will hire someone who can't give verifiable references for where they learned, no matter how good their work looks. Self-taught "scratchers" are universally shunned and despised by credible artists.

Even so, there's not really a standard agreement on how an apprentice should be trained, what it should cost and how long it should take, etc. But its generally a minimum of 1-3 years. The first 6 months to a year is usually spent watching, cleaning up, tracing designs, and learning health and safety procedures, before even starting to learn the actual tattooing part.

[masterglaster]

Definitely not true for ALL trades. In the tattoo business, there is no acceptable way to get started except an apprenticeship. Its not like glass or most other things where teaching yourself or "learning on the job" is a viable option, for obvious reasons (not that people don't try.) No remotely reputable shop will hire someone who can't give verifiable references for where they learned, no matter how good their work looks. Self-taught "scratchers" are universally shunned and despised by credible artists.

Even so, there's not really a standard agreement on how an apprentice should be trained, what it should cost and how long it should take, etc. But its generally a minimum of 1-2 years.

The construction trades unions made that identical claim for years about "self-taught" non-union tradespeople. Most of those they shunned and despised went into self-employment and now enjoy full time employment at great income levels while most of the union folks are unemployed. Many of the shunned and despised built construction companies that compete effectively with union shops.

When someone chooses a tattoo artist, are they likely to be concerned about who that artist learned from or are they more likely to be concerned about the quality of the artist's work?

[HOSS]

Not the same thing. At all. AFAIK There's no indication of this system changing anytime soon, if ever. It works this way for a good reason, there's simply no safe alternative today. There is little to no similarity to the construction trades, unions etc. There are now a couple of "schools" out there, but the cost and training requirements are pretty much the same.

What the customer SHOULD be more concerned about than the quality of the work is whether the person has been properly trained to not give them hepatitis, just for starters. There's a lot more to it than just being able to follow the lines. Whether the customer knows this or not is irrellevant, the shop owner knows.

Would you want to go to a doctor, or a dentist, who had no diploma, or any verifiable training, just some pictures that he claims are of his own happy patients? That would be a much better comparison than the guy you hire to build your back porch.

[masterglaster]

Not the same thing. At all. AFAIK There's no indication of this system changing anytime soon, if ever. There's simply no safe alternative. There is little to no similarity to the construction trades, unions etc. There are now a few schools out there (VERY few), but the training requirements are pretty much the same.

What the customer SHOULD be more concerned about than the quality of the work is whether the person has been properly trained to not give them hepatitis, just for starters. There's a lot more to it than just being able to follow the lines. Whether the customer knows this or not is irrellevant, the shop owner knows.

Would you want to go to a doctor, or a dentist, who had no diploma, or any verifiable training, just some pictures that he claims are of his own happy patients? That would be a better parallel than the guy you hire to build your back porch.

Although doctors and dentists (like lawyers and architects and engineers) do spend a short "apprentice" period, their education and training is mostly totally outside an apprentice system. Whatever the profession or trade, it makes no different how they acquired the skills but only that they did acquire them. Apprenticeship is one way but definitely not the only way. In the construction trades, it's possible to become fully certified without an apprenticeship. Those that teach themself still acquire the same certification as those that apprenticed.

Is there a certification licencing standard for tatooists? There is for all the construction trades - just like there is for doctors and dentists and architects and engineers and lawyers.

[earthdrum]

The first 6 months to a year is usually spent watching, cleaning up, tracing designs, and learning health and safety procedures, before even starting to learn the actual tattooing part.

Was the labor that you put into doing these task considered payment or did you pay for this part of the process?

It seems that doing these tasks should be considered in the cost of the apprenticeship. If managed properly... the student can do a great deal of learning and the teacher can provide an affordable experience while giving the teacher an extra set of hands.

I have never tried it this way but since I am blowing a lot more glass these days, it would be nice to have the help.

To be fair to the spirit of the thread, I should say that my time is worth $50 an hour and as long the student is getting what they need while I am getting $50 per hour for my time, either in labor or cash.... It will work for me.

I have apprenticed quite a few artist... I love to teach... I love to see the joy they receive in taking on this new world. I have learned alot over the last few years about doing apprenticeships, mostly what not to do... And I am still learning... that is why I started this thread... and the other thread... the students prospective....

I am about to take on a few more apprentices and am wanting to make some big changes in the program and thought an exchange of ideas on the topic would be good for a few of us...

I will be chiming back in real soon to share some of my idea and some things I have learned.

[ornametalsmith]

with all due respect.......I couldn't disagree more with Masterglaster. Originally Posted by masterglaster
"What is it you need to learn that you can't learn without becoming an apprentice?"

And think Awhiskydrunk.......hit the nail on the head when he said "
Probably nothing, but I would guess the difference is the speed at which you learn things"

I've had first hand experience in the blacksmithing field.......no comparison. Granted a lot has to do with the individuals ....both the apprentice and the shop owner.

[hwcglass]

I think that in the lampworking world a well organized apprenticeship is worth more than money, regardless of how experienced a person is going into the program; from novice to expert, a solid opportunity to learn hands on with someone you respect is a rare and valuable thing.

[HOSS]

Is there a certification licencing standard for tatooists? There is for all the construction trades - just like there is for doctors and dentists and architects and engineers and lawyers.

No. In the US at least, the industry is pretty much self-regulated, which is why apprenticing is considered to be so important (along with the "permanent" nature of the work and the many health concerns.) But while its called an apprenticeship, it is very loosely structured compared to what you are talking about, with unions and certifications and all that. Each shop has its own way of doing things. Most states don't require any kind of licensing for an individual artist, usually the studio itself carries the license, which is done through the health department. But laws vary a lot from state to state. If there were ever to be an overhaul of the whole system, standardized licensing and government regulation etc, that might change the situation.. but that seems unlikely, there's never been any significant push for such a thing that I know of. As of now, there's basically only one way in, and anyone who tries going around that system is asking for trouble.



Was the labor that you put into doing these task considered payment or did you pay for this part of the process?

As I said, there's really no standard agreement. I've known and heard of people who paid $10-$50k just for the opportunity to be there, and scrubbed the toilets on top of that. In my case, during the training phase the hours I put in helping around the shop went towards paying my "Tuition" at a certain rate per hour, plus I got a small cash wage to help me get by. After starting to do work on actual customers (1 year), I got 50% of the cost of each piece (plus tips), same as the more experienced artists, but still had to pay a reasonable tuition out of that for the second year. After that I was considered legit, and could go anywhere.

Glad to hear you're getting back on the torch more, it sounds like things at the farm are running much smoother these days and that makes me happy. :D

[Bo Diddles]

Perhaps it's different in the US (or at least in some states) where perhaps it is necessary to take an apprenticeship to acquire trade certification but hasn't been necessary anywhere in Canada for about 20 years.

First of all, I'm Canadian.


All that's needed is to pass the trades exam. To qualify to take the exam, you either take a 2 year trades college course or get certification that you have worked in that trade for a specified number of hours (different in each trade).

Good luck getting a job, or if you do, keeping one. An employer would know pretty quickly if they hired someone that had just 'challenged' for certification. Getting the ticket is one thing, getting hired is another.


The only tradespeople that take an apprenticeship are union...

Bullshit. Maybe where you're from, but not in Ontario.


I'm basing this statement on considerable experience working with tradespeople in many different trades (including construction).
Really? That's a pretty vague statement, and it seems like you don't really know much about the topic.


At least in Canada, there is no trade certification that can't as easily be obtained without apprenticing. Easily obtained? Well, what I am waiting for - I've got a whole list of trades I'd like to get certified in, if it's that easy...


I expect it's equally easy to get non-union trade certification in the US. Apprenticeship is only needed if you want into the union and the ratio of union to non-union is steadily declining in favour of more independant self-employed trades people - who almost always earn a helluva lot more then union jobs pay.

Okay, I've got to just come out and say it: You have absolutely no idea what the hell you're talking about. How about we use my trade certification as a commercial / industrial electrician as an example. I'm a member of the union, and I get paid 20 - 35 percent MORE than my non-union counterpart.


Few tradespeople (union or non-union) are willing to take on an apprentice because the contractual commitment is a huge PITA. Instead, they'll just hire a helper.
In Ontario, there's no such thing as a 'helper'. Labourers are allowed for a certain time span, then the company must either sign them up to an apprenticeship or let them go. Full time labourers may only be employed by the general contractor on site.


In Canada, the non-union non-apprentice certification is called "Interprovincial" and is good everywhere in Canada.
So wrong, I don't know where to begin. There is NO difference between non-union and union certification. The 'interprovincial' certification used to be based on your cert. exam mark (60% was a pass, 70% allowed interprovincial travelling) but now it's automatic because the pass mark was raised to 70%. This is all based on an electrical apprenticeship, which is a fairly typical setup.


The union journeyman certification is considered to be lower standard and is recognized only in the province it's issued in.

Again, NO DIFFERENCE! Is this something that goes on in B.C. or something? I've never heard of 'union journeyman certification' at all. Union or non-union, it's the SAME CERTIFICATE!


It's my understanding

OH! Well then.... if this is just your understanding, then I guess that explains it.
How about you get your facts straight in the future before puking up a stinking pile of bullshit all over my screen. It's exhausting doing all this quoting and writing, and I can't just let it pass.
This is based on my experience of nine years in construction in Ontario.

[masterglaster]

First of all, I'm Canadian.
So am I.


Good luck getting a job, or if you do, keeping one. An employer would know pretty quickly if they hired someone that had just 'challenged' for certification. Getting the ticket is one thing, getting hired is another.
If you pass the exam and get the certification, it's exactly the same exam and exactly the same certification whether you took an apprenticeship or not and whether you're union or not.


Okay, I've got to just come out and say it: You have absolutely no idea what the hell you're talking about. How about we use my trade certification as a commercial / industrial electrician as an example. I'm a member of the union, and I get paid 20 - 35 percent MORE than my non-union counterpart.
How much any employee is paid depends entirely on what their employer is willing to pay them. If you work as an independant self-employed contractor, the markup on materials is as much again as the labour and working contract instead of hourly means you can charge whatever the market will bear. The current going rate for a self-employed independant electrician in Vancouver is $60 - $80/hr and are invariably booked months ahead. Plumbers and mechanics are about the same. It's the difference between being an employee and being self-employed. Employees make less money.

If you want to get certified as an electrician you need to prove the number of hours worked as either a private contract electrician or as an electrician's helper to be permitted to take the trades exam. Anybody can post an ad in their local newspaper and take on small electrical jobs. They need no certification other then some way to get electrical permits - which can be taken out in the home owner's name. Apprenticeship is not the only way to get trades certification.

Non-union electricians don't take on apprentices. They hire helpers. How much those helpers are paid is based as much on how hard they work as on their skill level. There's a huge difference between an electrician's helper and a labourer. Trades helpers have been commonplace in non-union work since the 1960's.


In Ontario, there's no such thing as a 'helper'. Labourers are allowed for a certain time span, then the company must either sign them up to an apprenticeship or let them go. Full time labourers may only be employed by the general contractor on site.
I believe you're referring to union only. Not all construction is union. Actually, very little. A non-union certified electrician can call his employees anything he wishes and permit them to do anything they wish - as long as he approves the work.



So wrong, I don't know where to begin. There is NO difference between non-union and union certification. The 'interprovincial' certification used to be based on your cert. exam mark (60% was a pass, 70% allowed interprovincial travelling) but now it's automatic because the pass mark was raised to 70%. This is all based on an electrical apprenticeship, which is a fairly typical setup.
That's my point. There is no difference once you pass the exam. It is not required to take an apprenticeship to be permitted to take the exam for interprovincial certification. I can say with absolute certainty not in BC or Alberta and I seriously suspect not in any other province. I can also say with absolute certainty that if you pass the interprovincial exam in BC or Alberta, you are certified to work anywhere in Canada.

[dankbudz]

Fight nice ladies...

[kage]

First of all, I'm Canadian.


couldn't resist.....

:canadian::canadian:

[GlassFreak]

this hardly counts, i have alot of people in my town that want me to teach them what i know. i would love to have someone to throw with but all the people dont seem serious at all, they just want to use my shit and have me teach them all the same. im not doin shit if i dont think the person is serious. why waste the time and money?

btw, ive been blowin less than a year so i really dont think i could get any money or anything out of it... maybe a bit of supplies or a tank fill or two...

[The Madhatter]

Wow! A Canadian shit talking Smack-Down.

What was this thread even about anyways? Oh yeah:


Are you currently a teacher, want to be a teacher, or were you a teacher of a lampworking apprenticeship program? What do you consider the idea yet fair agreement to be in with the student whom you have brought you under your wing?


This thread got so screwed up...

Any actual glass blower masters have something to say? Not that the Canooks aren't fun to watch get all agro at each other, but I've been tossing around the idea of taking on an apprentice and would like to hear some input from someone who has.

As for charging $50 per hour, I think that makes you a student/teacher which is a bit different from having an apprentice... Or do apprentices have to pay? I thought they just did labor in exchange for knowledge...

[Islandglass Man]

The Canadian construction trade apprenticeship does not relate at all to lampworking. Mixing concrete and mixing CEOs does not compute.

An apprenticeship program that is run right can be very beneficial to all parties if all parties know what is expected.

There are lots of apprenticeship programs in print that have been used for years do some research. Check out this program and you will see what it takes to run a scientific glassblowing apprenticeship


www.public.asu.edu/.../ STATE%20%20OF%20%20ARIZONA%20APPRENTICE%20STANDAR. ..

Bear

[Mecha]

So Dennis, what field of construction are you in specifically? How long have you been in the trade?

[Midas]

I've been working with a apprentice for the last year. I went through three to four before him(not serious inquires). With him, it has been very beneficial for both of us. I have acquired better teaching skills and he has learned a new craft. The key to having a successful apprentice is Desire. I put him threw Hell Month! I was wanting him to know exactly what he was getting into. I year later he has acquired more skills then I had, and pulling in a steady check. Apprenticeships have gotten lost in this new generation. The generation of knowledge, it seems like everybody just want to have the skills without actually putting the work in. Our craft use to be a well guarded secret, were you would have to be family or close to it to get an apprenticeship. Now the flood gates are open and the game has changed.

[ornametalsmith]

considering that actions speak louder than words........this thread SPEAKS volumes.

http://www.talkglass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30044

Trikky has shown not only his strong desire .....but the benefit of an apprenticeship. 9 months in...........anyone that is working alone, learning via videos, forums and books.......that can come anywhere close to these pieces......is not normal :o:

I Hope Eush........will jump in on this thread....

[Islandglass Man]

sorry this should load copy this and uses you broswer

[DOC] STATE OF ARIZONA APPRENTICESHIP STANDARDS FOR Program Sponsor

Bear

[Bo Diddles]

My apologies to Earthdrum for the thread derailment. I promised myself I wouldn't argue with him... I'm embarassed.

Anyhoo... I have an 'apprentice' who has been working with me for about nine months (I use 'apprentice' loosely because I'm not exactly a 'journeyman'). I charge him a low rent which compensates me for the big cost of my initial set up and tools etc., and he buys his oxy and glass, and we split the propane. He is now good enough to sell some things.
Do I tell him good luck, stay out of my shops?
Do I sell his stuff and take a percentage?
Do we become partners in my company (not gonna happen), or does he become a 'real' employee, where I supply everything and sell everything?

[kage]

considering that actions speak louder than words........this thread SPEAKS volumes.

http://www.talkglass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30044

Trikky has shown not only his strong desire .....but the benefit of an apprenticeship. 9 months in...........anyone that is working alone, learning via videos, forums and books.......that can come anywhere close to these pieces......is not normal :o:

x2

me self taught. it was waaayyyy longer than 9 months before i was at that level. looking back, i would have sold my organs to achieve such skills at that pace.

[nafglass]

This is all very interesting. I will share more thoughts soon as I am establishing the groundwork for my apprenticeship program as well as an intern program. I am basing much of this off of my mentor, a highly successful ceramic artist who made her living off ceramics in St. Paul who had many apprentices and interns. Once I get it in writing, I will share with all of you.

[Alfred]

Bear that one didn't work either.I found it though, try this link:

http://www.public.asu.edu/~aomdw/Guest/STATE%20%20OF%20%20ARIZONA%20APPRENTICE%20STANDARD S.doc

it's a .doc file,not pdf, if you you don't have MS word or MS office you can use the freeware program OpenOffice (http://download.openoffice.org/)

[phab]

So Dennis, what field of construction are you in specifically? How long have you been in the trade?

...lol! roto router is NOT construction!

[The Madhatter]

Actually, not to knock apprenticeships but Trikky said later in the thread that he's only been an apprentice for 5 days or so. He took a class and then was on his own for like 5 months. Those MAD skills are self-taught or at least self progressed.

I am looking forward to seeing what he can accomplish now that he's working as Eush's apprentice...

[Trikky_Glass]

considering that actions speak louder than words........this thread SPEAKS volumes.

http://www.talkglass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30044

Trikky has shown not only his strong desire .....but the benefit of an apprenticeship. 9 months in...........anyone that is working alone, learning via videos, forums and books.......that can come anywhere close to these pieces......is not normal :o:

I Hope Eush........will jump in on this thread....
Thanks for the kind words. I was an "apprentice" at Revere Glass... we all know how that goes... But I've not actually worked with Eush as his apprentice yet. I took a three day class with him that went 5 days long, at which time he asked me if I wanted to come up and work with him. I had to leave for Holiday vacation just as soon as I got my stuff moved.


x2

me self taught. it was waaayyyy longer than 9 months before i was at that level. looking back, i would have sold my organs to achieve such skills at that pace.
Yeah I wouldn't say I'm really "self-taught", but no one handed me anything. I've been supporting myself with my glassblowing since month 2. I really do appreciate the nice words, though.

Actually, not to knock apprenticeships but Trikky said later in the thread that he's only been an apprentice for 5 days or so. He took a class and then was on his own for like 5 months. Those MAD skills are self-taught or at least self progressed.

I am looking forward to seeing what he can accomplish now that he's working as Eush's apprentice...

Thanks for helping clear this up. I appreciate that.

[Islandglass Man]

Thanks Alfred anything beyond email and I'm lost

Bear

[Alfred]

Here's the whole text of the apprentice agreement Bear referenced :


STATE OF ARIZONA
APPRENTICESHIP STANDARDS
FOR

Program Sponsor Name: ARIZONA STATE UNIVERSITY - CHEMISTRY DEPARTMENT - GLASS SHOP
Address: ASU CAMPUS, GLASS SHOP Phone No: (480) 965—3242
City: TEMPE , Arizona Zip Code: 85287—1604

The sponsor named above hereby agrees to assure diversified training in the skilled occupation(s) identified herein, to the Apprentice in accordance with these Standards, and is willing to participate in the Apprenticeship system as outlined herein.

MINIMUM QUALIFICATIONS:
The following list of minimum qualifications shall apply to all applicants.
1. Applicants must be a minimum of eighteen ( 18 ) years of age.
2. Applicants must have a High School Diploma or its equivalent.
3. Applicants must submit a copy of their Birth Certificate and transcript of school courses and grades, if requested.
4. Applicants must be physically capable of performing job requirements as demonstrated by passing a pre-employment physical examination.
5. Applicants must meet all minimum qualifications for the Crafts Apprentice job title in the ASU Personnel System, and meet all normal requirements for employment with Arizona State University.

RELATED TRAINING:
In accordance with these program standards, each apprentice shall participate in related theoretical training for a minimum of 144 hours per year for each year of the apprenticeship term. An outline of the courses, subjects and or areas of study shall appear in the appendixes to these Standards.

RATIO OF APPRENTICES TO JOURNEY WORKERS:
The allowable ratio of Apprentices to Journey Workers, under these standards is one (1)
Apprentice to the first Journey Worker, and one (1) additional Apprentice for each
additional Journey Worker normally employed at the trade.

SPONSOR APPROVAL:

These Apprenticeship Standards have been adopted this day of _ ,1994.

_________________________________
John R. Cronin
Committee Chairman, Chemistry Department

REGISTRATION AGENCY APPROVAL

These Apprenticeship Standards, being in conformity with the Rules and Regulations established for the registration of Apprenticeship Programs by the Arizona Department of Economic Security, are hereby granted approval, effective the date shown below:
APPROVED BY: _ ___
Date


PROGRAM NUMBER: AZ 002- EXPIRATION DATE: _
THE APPRENTICE AND APPRENTICESHIP AGREEMENT/QUALIFICATIONS AND RELATED TRAINING.
An “Apprentice’ shall mean an employee of legal working age who meets the qualifications established, and who is employed under a written agreement, in accordance with these Standards of Apprenticeship. The apprentice shall be registered with the Arizona Department of Economic Security/Apprenticeship Services, referred to hereafter as the “Registration Agency”. The apprentice agreement shall be signed by the sponsor, the apprentice and, if the apprentice is a minor, by the apprentice’s parent or guardian.

EQUAL OPPORTUNITY PLEDGE. The recruitment, selection, employment and training of apprentices during their apprenticeship, shall be without discrimination because of race, color, religion, national origin, or sex. The Sponsor will take affirmative action to provide equal opportunity in apprenticeship and will operate the apprenticeship program as required by Title 29, CFR, Part 30, as amended. An Affirmative Action Plan and Selection Procedure shall be filed with the Registration Agency, if applicable.


TERM OF APPRENTICESHIP, PROBATIONARY PERIOD, CANCELLATION, WORK EXPERIENCE, WAGE
SCHEDULE: LAYOFF, RATIO: ETC. The term of apprenticeship shall be as stated on the attached occupational schedule(s). Either party may cancel the apprenticeship agreement, without stated cause, during the probationary period by notifying the other. After the probationary period, the agreement may be suspended or canceled by sponsor for cause, following a hearing by the sponsor or apprenticeship committee. The Registration Agency and the apprentice shall be notified in writing of all suspensions, cancellations, terminations, and completions of apprenticeship together, with reasons applicable. When an employer is unable to fulfill their obligation under the apprenticeship agreement, every attempt will be made to transfer the training obligation to another employer/sponsor under the same program with the consent of the apprentice and apprenticeship committee or program sponsor. The entry wages of the progressively increasing schedule of wages shall not be less than the Federal minimum wage.


SUPERVISION OF APPRENTICES; PERIODIC REVIEW; RECORD KEEPING. The Sponsor shall designate qualified person(s) who will be responsible for the supervision and training of apprentices in accordance with the attached work schedule. Adequate records shall be kept by the Sponsor indicating the apprentice’s progress as well as current status in the training program by conducting periodic reviews and evaluations in both on-the-job and related instruction. All apprenticeship records shall be maintained for a period of not less than five (5) years, as required by the Arizona Department of Economic Security.


WORKING CONDITIONS. The apprentice shall receive instruction and experience in all branches of the trade or craft, to develop a practical and skilled journey person well versed in the theory and practice of the occupation in accordance with the work process schedule(s) as shown in the appendixes to these Standards. The Sponsor agrees to become familiar with Federal, State and local laws or regulations which may affect the employment of apprentices under this agreement.


CREDIT FOR PREVIOUS EXPERIENCE. The Sponsor may grant credit for previous trade experience or education with commensurate wages paid for any such credit.


SAFETY PROVISIONS. The Sponsor shall verify that Apprentices receive instruction in accident prevention and safe working habits, both on-the—job arid in related instruction, during the entire term of training in compliance with the occupational safety and health standards promulgated by the Secretary Of Labor under Public Law 91-596, dated December 29, 1970, as amended.


CERTIFICATE OF COMPLETION. Upon completion of apprenticeship, the sponsor will recommend to the Registration Agency that a Certificate of Completion of Apprenticeship be awarded to the apprentice.


MODIFICATION OF STANDARDS. Any modification or changes in these standards will be submitted promptly to the Registration Agency for approval of such modification or change. Apprentices employed before such modification shall not be affected without their consent.


INTERPRETATION. In the event that differences arise as to the interpretation of these Standards or the apprenticeship agreement which cannot be satisfactorily settled by the apprentice and the program sponsor, either party may request the advice and assistance of the Registration Agency or the U.S. Department of Labor, Bureau of Apprenticeship and Training.


DEREGISTRATION OF PROGRAM. Deregistration of a program may be effected upon the voluntary action of the sponsor, by request for cancellation of the registration, or upon reasonable cause, by the Registration Agency, instituting formal deregistration proceedings as prescribed by State Regulations.


AUTHORITY TO RECEIVE COMPLAINTS: The appropriate authority to receive arid process complaints, under these Standards is: Apprenticeship Committee Chairman
Arizona State University - Chemistry Department - Glass Shop
Tempe, Arizona 85287—1604


APPENDIX “A”

This “Appendix” shall be considered a part of the Apprenticeship Standards for Arizona State University’s — Chemistry Department - Glass Shop, in Tempe, Arizona, approved by and registered with the Arizona Department of Economic Security. This Appendix identifies the specifics to areas addressed in the attached Standards with regards to the following:


OCCUPATIONAL CLASSIFICATION:____Glass Blower - Laboratory Apparatus
DOT CODE: 722.281—010 AIMS CODE: 0768


TERM OF APPRENTICESHIP:
The term of apprenticeship for the above named classification shall be 8,000 hours,
(approximately 4 years), of reasonably continuous employment. The first 1,000 hours
(approximately 6 months) of which shall be a probationary period.


WORK PROCESS SCHEDULE:
The Apprentice shall receive instructions and experience in all processes of the trade or craft to be learned in accordance with the following performance based schedule:


APPRENTICE SHALL RECEIVE APPROXIMATELY
PROCESS: APPROXIMATE HOURS
a. Use and Care of Tools, Equipment and Materials of the Trade 500
b. Glass Shop and Chemical Safety and Housekeeping 500
c. Glass Blowing Techniques 3,000
(An equal division of time shall be spent in the following specific areas, with due consideration
to performance. Cutting Glass: Use of knife with break, hot stick and torch cut; Flame cut; Roller
cutter; Saw cut; and, Linear inside score and cut techniques. Hand and Lathe Rotation Techniques:
Fire polish of cut ends; Bead cut ends; Pull points; Round bottoms; Flat bottoms; Butt seals; Tee
seals; Tubing flares; Tube and rod bends; Coil winding; Capillary tube seals; Quartz seals; and
Joint arid Flask tooling.)
d. Advanced Glass Blowing Techniques 3,000
(An equal division of time shall be spent in the following specific areas, with due consideration to
performance. Construction and repair of the following items:
Ultra High Vacuum systems and related vacuum apparatus; Precision metal in glass apparatus;
Maintain, repair or replace glassware on existing equipment; Construction of distillation, sublimation,
extraction, filtration and reaction apparatus; Construction of gas chromatography columns,
electrophoresis plates, and high efficiency molecular stills; Construction of quartz and Vycor apparatus;
Design and construction of glass tooling devices, assembly fixtures and burner mountings; Ceramic to
glass seals; Assist in design of innovative glass apparatus; and assist in glassblowing instruction for chemistry students.)
e. Chemical Technology 500
f. Vacuum Technology 500
TOTAL HOURS: 8,000



RELATED TRAINING OUTLINE:
In accordance with these registered program standards, each apprentice shall participate in related theoretical training, for a minimum of 144 hours per year, in the areas and subjects identified below. The following related instruction program is identified as a performance/competency based program.

SUBJECTS/COURSES/CLASSES APPROXIMATE HOURS
A. Chemistry course CHM 101 90 hours

B. Chemistry course CHM 593 (Glassblowing) 54 hours

C. Vacuum Technology and Chemical Processes 100 hours *

This course of study requires the apprentice to participate a minimum of two (2) hours per week, approximately fifty (50) weeks per year, during each of the four years of training.

D. Apparatus Training 100 hours

TOTAL MINIMUM RELATED TRAINING HOURS 576 hours


APPRENTICE WAGES:
The workday and workweek for apprentices shall be the same as that for journey/craft workers, and shall be subject to the same conditions of employment.

Each apprentice shall receive progressively increasing wages in accordance with the guidelines established by the Arizona Board of Regents for all university staff employees. Based upon performance, apprentices will be eligible for merit increases, cost of living adjustments and equity adjustments, if available. Apprentices will receive a minimum salary increase of 1% of their base salary, based upon an annual performance evaluation.

The base salary for the apprentice position will be the prevailing starting salary for the
Apprentice Glassblower position (Grade 13), as established in the Arizona State University
Personnel Compensation System, effective January 1, 1995.

The Apprenticeship Committee shall provide such information to the Registration Agency, on an annual basis relating to the Grade 13 salary, and the amount of the annual increase granted to the apprentice by the Arizona State Board of Regents.




APPRENTICESHIP COMMITTEE
In accordance with the preceding Apprenticeship Program Standards, the following individuals are hereby appointed by Arizona State University, Chemistry Department (Sponsor), identified in the Program Standards, as the “Apprenticeship Committee” charged with the operation and execution of said Apprenticeship Program Standards.

These Apprenticeship Standards have been formally adopted this ____ day of January 1995.
Committee Chairman
Dr. John R. Cronin
Facility Supervisor — Glass Shop

____________________
(Signature)


Committee Secretary

Janice E. Kyle
Scientific Glassblower
____________________
(Signature)



Committee Members

Dr. Ted M. Brown
Chemistry Dept. Associate Chair

____________________
(Signature)

Mr. Mike Wheeler
Research Specialist Apprentice Coordinator
_______________
(Signature)




The above named Apprenticeship Committee Members shall see that the provisions of these Standards are observed as uniformly as possible. The Registration Agency shall be advised of any changes in committee membership within thirty (30) days of such changes.





ADDENDUM — A

[MUPH]

Although doctors and dentists (like lawyers and architects and engineers) do spend a short "apprentice" period

Short must mean 2-4 years

[newmexicomagma]

I look at it like this. With formal instruction my apprentice would be able to learn my 6 years of knowledge in no more than 3. Obviously torch time is a factor in all this but having a direct source to knowledge is invaluable. What we have been doing with the apprentices for duke city pipers is trading an hour of shopwork for an hour of torch time. Once they make a sellable product they start to get paid. More training happens as they get better and their payscale increases. An apprentice should somehow be able to payback their overhead through some form of labor.

[earthdrum]

Sorry about the delay but here it is... an outline of how we do our apprenticeship program. The apprenticeship program we run here has changed quite a bit over the years and we are about to change it yet again. That is why I started this thread... in hopes to share what I have learned and to get some feed back... also, i started a thread with a similar name except in the students prospective. I have worked hard to create a program that takes the apprentices needs in mind through out, when ever possible and if any of you did an apprenticeship, please post your thoughts there too.

It is very important to us that the apprenticeship program is attainable for the apprentice while at the same time get compensated for my time and the expenses they incur.

It is a one year program and this is how it breaks down:

1. The prospective apprentice takes a series of workshop that tend to take about 3 weeks and cost $600... In these three weeks, they do 30 hours of watching, learn about health and safety, studio elements and proper tool usage. Then they spend 30 hours doing skill building by turning our scraps into usable materials while learning to gather glass, weld rod, pull stringers, open tube ends up, tube welding, and lattacino... The workshop ends with making mushroom pendants.

2. After completing the workshops, we decide if the prospective apprentice has got what it takes and in turn they decide if they really want to commit. If they are accepted into the program they sign a one year agreement.

3. Before they can begin, they must do another 30 hours of watching, 10 hours of initiation labor (kind of a ceremony... usually taking on a studio improvement project, leave their mark as we say). At that point they can proceed. We try to make a ceremony out of being accepted into the program by join us around the fire pit in the back of the property. The current apprentices and myself share words of wisdom as to what to expect and how to get through the program.

4. As an apprentice, they are required to spend 30 hours a week on the torch making products... starting with the simplest things... They pay for studio time. We have a weekly fee that pays for everything including the use of torch and tools, except for the glasses, tweezers, and grabbers they must buy for themselves. In addition to that, to keep the operation cost down, each apprentice is required to do an hour a week doing studio tasks.

5. In addition, the apprentice pays a weekly apprenticeship fee of $50. This is for administration and almost an hour a week in glass talk and critiquing of their pieces with me during an inventorying process. Every apprentice in the studio is required to share what we have taught them to the newer students and we have a studio workshop almost every week. Also, they can observe us while we work when ever they want. In this manner it does not require a whole lot of one on one time thus keeping the program more affordable. I am available for one on one tutoring upon request for no additional cost but this is changing with future students.

6. Also, the apprentice does 2 hours a week of prep work.

7. The apprentice buys all materials from the studio that they use to make products at a fair rate.

8. The apprentices are required to make what is needed to fill our customers needs and as they progress the pieces become more challenging. We do encourage exploration but it only represents about 20% of their time. At some point they develop particular interests and their own style and as long as their production rate is high, this is encouraged.

9. We get a sales commission of 25% for ever piece the apprentice makes during the program. This is for the pieces we sell for them and the pieces they choose to keep.

I think that about sums it up...

Some of the changes we are making are:

1. Increase the studio rent since we have recently discovered we are not covering those cost.

2. Extend the program to two years since many have decided they want to stay with us beyond the first year. During this second year they get their own private studio space, more workshops (hopefully with some great artist), they get to set the prices for their pieces (within reason), and they get to decide what they want to make.

3. We are switching from a system where they paid 15% of product value back into materials, to a system where they purchase materials by the rod, tube, or stick, just above wholesale. This will greatly increase the respect for those materials and lead to a lot less waste.

4. Studio tasks will be two hours a week instead of one.

5. New apprentices coming in will have 3 phases to the program. The first phase we call the Hobbyist. During this phase, they will do 5 hours a week in prep work and 10 hours on the torch making products. This will be for 2 months. Then if they really want to continue, the will enter the next phase we call the Enthusiast. This really helps weed out the ones that are really not cut out for it without the breaking of a long term contract. During this next phase, they will do 5 hours of prep and 20 hours a week making products. This phase also last 2 months. Then they are required to move on to the Career program. During this phase, they will do 2 hours a week in prep work and 30 hours on the torch making products. This will be for 2 years. We have found that due to the cost of learning, most people need to work another job to sustain themselves, and an incremental increase in the time they spend working here helps them to adjust to making an income here.

6. We will be requiring apprentices to pay in advance of each week for studio rent, apprentice fee, and materials. We had been taking these out of the money we get from selling their pieces, which is weeks or even months later in some cases.

7. We will be holding 50% of the apprentices earnings until we hold $500 of their money as collateral towards finishing the program. This will ensure they don't bail on the program and become our competitors too soon.

8. I will be charging for tutoring upon request at a rate of $30 - $50 per hour... not sure which yet.

Just a note... we do not hire the apprentices. They are handled as independent artists for the products they make and as students for the education side of things. The money they make is solely based on how productive they are and what is left after all fees are paid to the studio.

Hope this is helpful to those of you considering working with an apprenticeship situation... please share your thoughts. it would be greatly appreciated.

[bc]

How about, your my apprentice an you do what I say cause I'ma bad ass at glassblowing an if you wanna be like me you do what I say? wit a lil smile on yer face? Those that say yes are either tools or are very series about learning the trade. Pretty easy to figure out the tool.

[p.j.]

if you've been in this long enough you've had apprentices or friends work with and for you. i've haven't stopped taking apprentices.... i've just told everyone that asks now, "you give me 5 grand and i'll help you set up your studio and teach you everything i know for a year."......usually people look at me like i'm an asshole, but what newbs don't understand what it really takes to get to where you need to be

[Big Jay]

What is it you need to learn that you can't learn without becoming an apprentice?

I didn't read the other responses so if its been said already sorry.
How bout the hardest part of the glass blowing world, sales? Not only does an apprentice get hands on instruction but they get instruction on how to make sales. I started with pages of contacts on day 1 of my apprenticeship ! When shit gets sour in one spot I have another door offered. I also started day 1 with acceptance in certain circles that would have been hard to break into being on my own.
I totally get it , people who haven't had the luxury of apprenticing or tried and it didn't work out have a shitty opinion of it. I know people that have been in the glass biz for over a decade and are currently in an apprentice situation to learn hands on with some of the greats, even though they are already flirting with greatness.

edit- instead of sales that should be business in general.. I left out other things like what colors to stay away from, where to get the best discounts on glass, how to handle your taxes, etc etc.. god damn if that isn't worth something.

[Aymie]

Networking in general is a great benefit of SOME apprenticeships. Coming in to the glassblowing community under the name of an established artist is certainly an asset.

AND NO NEW APPRENTICES EARTHDRUM!!! We have a great bunch of people now...and we all work well together...why fuck that up?