How does GTT clean/refurbish torches?

[highroller]

Well that said it all. Looking for someone that realy knows. Do they "deck" the face? Ultra-sonic bath? Complete dissasembly? Now that they charge I wish they would tell us how to do ourself. Thanx Todd

[bc]

uh, yeah, they're gonna let all their secrets outta the bag so you can avoid a $150 once a year cleaning that you make a living off of so they can get flooded with calls from dumbasses all over the world on 'How do I put my torch back together again.......'

just sayin, think about it what yer asking......

[The Madhatter]

Wow, little harsh there bc.

I don't think it's really that much to ask for. Would you buy a car if the manufacturer refused to sell a maintenance guide for it? (and I've paid less for cars than I have for my Delta).

Excellent question Todd, hope someone with the balls to try will speak up on this thread!

[menty666]

Yeah, I mean Chilton's is still in business, right? Given in most cases you can replace needle valves and such yourself, it can't be rocket science.

Even if you get your car tuned up you can find out what that entails.

Plus they can make a mint on reassembling torches and fixing misaligned threads after someone tries to put the knobs back on crooked and screws it up.

[menty666]

Just out of curiosity, for those of you that do torch full time as the sole source of income, what do you do when you send your torch in? Do you keep a backup on the shelf or take a vacation?

[puddletown]

I have had my mirage for over two years, and NEVER had to send it in for a cleaning. If you use the torch properly, you should not ever have to send it in for a cleaning.

I think the reason they started charging for the cleanings is because people would send their torches in just because it was free, but im not positive, its just what makes sense to me.

I have heard people sending their torches in for basically no reason at all, basically taking advantage of the kindness of Willy and Wally.

[petto]

^^^ what I heard as well.

I have had my mirage for 5 yrs now and it run like a brand new torch, never been cleaned and it has a lot of hours, 3 yrs full time and the last 2 part time.

[The Madhatter]

Plus they can make a mint on reassembling torches and fixing misaligned threads after someone tries to put the knobs back on crooked and screws it up.

You got that right menty!

I've got a red max I keep around just for that reason. Can't afford down time:sleep: I mean, it'd be nice to just say "cool, vacation time", but you never know when you're gonna fuck up so bad you need to send it in for a professional overhaul (and chances are it happens at the worst possible time :bangHead:"

[Bglass]

um.... ive thought about it and.....
i honestly dont think its that much of a deal at all.
some of us like to fix our own shit and actually have the brains, tools and know how to do so.
if you think putting on hoses for 50 to 70 bucks plus shipping there and back is worth your work time just so they can earn a buck go for it... about two weeks for that service, depending on how busy they are.

but i know i can go get rated goodyear hose, the same stuff they use and a crimp set and do it myself. or even the old crappy plastic tube stuff they used for years.

with that said, most of the stuff on these is not rocket science and really if one person or persons can do it correctly, i can too or a lot of us can.
a lot of us are ex machinists or work with metal and specialized parts all day. i do a lot of more complex and crazy stuff all day with a cnc then taking apart a torch to clean or service. these things are made by people, with that said im a knowledgeable person and would like to know just for shits and giggles. even if i did know, which ive heard lots of different stuff id still consider sending it in.

there is no harm in more knowledge, the harm is letting yourself not gain the knowledge.

im sure a lot of the cost in these torches is the outsourcing of minor or major parts. when final assembly comes its just basic fabrication knowledge and skilled soldering and hours of work. not saying i can do it off the top of my head or anything just sayin.

BC
i dont want to attack you or point fingers or anything but i know you work on lathes right?....
one of the main things about lathes is the maintenance and know how of running that machine. if something breaks or happens, a lot of the time you cant just take your huge 1000 pound lathe to someone. you can but shipping there and back plus servicing is in the thousands.fork lift, trailer, truck etc.
in that said case you try and to your best knowledge and skill fix the fukr. right or wrong? i have a huge heathway im learning about, same thing. id rather take the time to figure out whats wrong so i can then have that knowledge and skill to fix or replace whenever, or whatever.


for me again on the gtt wouldn't be dissecting it or whatever to fix it, but simply learning how to change hoses or put on new valve nobs that get all worn and shitty.
im not trying to debate the facts or this question, even though it sounds like it. im just wanting to say what we all know... the only dumb question is the one not asked which applies to every single one of us lampworkers.
peace.

[poncho]

I thought i had a patent diagram of a gtt, but i guess i dont. I know i've seen one, with a total breakdown of every part in a exploded view. Maybe that'll help ya BC, ask around here im sure someone has it!

[puddletown]

Id like to see someone take apart their GTT. take pictures when you do and post them!

if someone were to take it apart, im sure you would see it is not rocket science, just an ingenious design. the trick is replacing worn out tubes, and cleaning the metal.

there are various methods of cleaning metal, im in no way an expert.

the question is, if you take apart your torch, and cant get it back together, what then?
what if the W's wont put it back together for you?
I heard that if you take the sticker off the back in an attempt to take the torch apart, they will not work on them. I have no idea if that is true.
it was supposed to be some sort of warranty thing, but i have never seen any warranty anything with my torch, so that probably isnt right.

[rp1313]

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5803725.pdf

[The Madhatter]

the only dumb question is the one not asked

Epic Quote Blake! +1

[faded]

uh, yeah, they're gonna let all their secrets outta the bag so you can avoid a $150 once a year cleaning that you make a living off of so they can get flooded with calls from dumbasses all over the world on 'How do I put my torch back together again.......'

just sayin, think about it what yer asking......



i could put it back together. :D

[Zed]

So, since this is kind of on topic, does anyone want to take a stab at which of the intakes in the below picture are for which gasses? Since GTT's are surface mix burners (right?) it seems like there should be at least one more chamber or intake, unless one of the chambers premixes the oxygen and propane. Anyways, intakes are labeled on this screencap as 15,16,17 ~ anyone know which intakes are gas or propane? Can someone ID this torch from the picture of the shot? I'm assuming its a single stage one since there are only 3 intakes labeled.

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o211/zed_photo/gtt.jpg

[TheGlassTree]

It's the cheetah I believe....

[ArtcoInc]

15 is the gas, 16 is the 'outside' oxygen (coming out of holes # 50) , and 17 is the 'inside' triple-mix oxygen (tubes # 33).

Malcolm

[NUBBLET]

At one point W&W said they could talk someone through disassembly and reassembly on the phone , I have not tried so I cant say for sure .

Patents are the protection for reproduction not for fixing an already existing item .

I remember them saying that they would resurface the face clean ports ....... basically you get it back like NEW . They also sited a case of a lady that beat the shit out of her torch and they resurfaced it like 3-4 in a year , they were bitchin cause she just abused the torch KNOWING they would stand behind their product .

Kirby vacuums have a lifetime warranty , they also charge for a "tune up" .
Somethings are "disposable" parts or whatnot and occasionally need replacing or touch ups . I imagine this is what you pay for along with less headache and peace of mind .

[nodice]

Yeah, I mean Chilton's is still in business, right? Given in most cases you can replace needle valves and such yourself, it can't be rocket science....

I can't speak for gtt, but as far as I know their regular cleaning doesn't include replacing anything on the torch. If it's a defect they'll obviously fix the problem, but if it's user error........


I think the reason they started charging for the cleanings is because people would send their torches in just because it was free, but im not positive, its just what makes sense to me....

90+% of the gtt's I've seen have been f'd up in some way and needed a cleaning(if not more), some of them many times.

[n3rd]

90+% of the gtt's I've seen have been f'd up in some way and needed a cleaning(if not more), some of them many times.

funny how these morons call the blue valve a turbo and say things like factory refurbishing is required. idiots! RTFM

[phab]

...i was listening to click and clack on npr one day and a guy called up with a problem right after he was talked into an engine shampoo when he went to have his oil changed. they use that much of the call for a promo. kinda funny.

90% of the gtts ive seen were running fine. if its design means more complete fuel combustion, which is why theyre so hot then it shouldnt need to be cleaned unless it wasnt run the way it was designed to. wear and tear on hoses doesnt require any special ability neither does screwing in a new valve if needed. they seem to be pretty much just a valve with a nut to hold it in place. if you cant do that yourself or dont want to i think an .02 supplier will crimp them on or install a valve for someone for a nominal fee.

the cleaning thing may have started because a newbie to the torch had one they didnt run right and it got all jacked up.


engine shampoo. hehe, that always cracks me up.

[CripSkillz]

lol what you dont use your turbo knob, makes bubbles in your glass its so fast....

[hashmasta-kut]

so how do people fuck up their gtt torches anyhow?

[petto]

^^by running the candles to short and to hot.

[filthy god brother]

When I first got my GTT Mirage 8 years ago I was used to my carlisle and ran the candles for the outer rings to short, I didn't realize that the center fire was so damn hot and had to send it in after less than a year.
I started to talk to others and adjust my settings and I haven't had to send it in since. Thanks matt and misha.

[The Madhatter]

I didn't think about cleaning it because of improper use, just plain old human error = like accidentally clogging your ports with a blob from a 12mm rod. Shit happens (the motto of my life)

[nodice]

I personally know two people that clogged all the inner ports of the outter flames on their phantoms within a day(or less) of getting their torches. They did it before I had a chance to say, "don't do that". I've heard of many other people that have done the same thing, like filthy said... After having a delta for two years, I sold it and less then a day later the lynx didn't work like it did when I had it. It happened a weak after they stopped cleaning torches for free. Someone else I know has the lynx part of his phantom popping out from the face, but he doesn't want to send it in to get fixed AGAIN because you never know when you're gonna get your torch back once you send it in.

They say that flames which mess up a gtt would mess up any other torch, but I don't thing that's really true. As far as I can tell, the truth is that if you don't have gas running through some of the ports, and you run the wrong flame, those ports will clog up quicker then you can say "oops". Not that I've ever done it.....

[newmexicomagma]

My pedal had a leak and my propane would stay on a but when I turned it off. Over time I hsd carbon build up and a lot of my outer ports became clogged on my delta. To make a long story short with a needle, the provided tip cleaner, and a ultrasonic cleaner was able to clean my torch and unclog the ports.

[boxfan willy]

1. W & W should have charged for cleaning from day 1. IT IS A SERVICE. When you get serviced, you pay. It was an awfully nice thing for them to do as long as they could afford to.
2. I apparently don't run my torch right and average a cleaning every 2 years. Average of $75 a year to have my $1800 torch run smooooth is a cheap maintenance program.
3. The following is my own ASSumption. They refurb the torches by milling the head a bit to get down to good port openings, fully dissassemble the manifold and clean it all. Don't know about a sonic bath, but it sounds right. I do know that I have a 10 yo phantom that has been refurbed 4-5 times and the plate thickness on the head is drastically thinner than a new model or one that has not been sent in. IOW, don't send it in more than you have to.

Thanks to Willy and Wally for all the years of providing a free service to all of us. Gladly pay the fee from now on.

For those that want to pull it apart and maintenance themselves, actually the torch is based on rocket science, guaranteed. Caveat Emptor! Warranty revoked!

Happy New Year
boxfan

[Icarus]

For those that want to pull it apart and maintenance themselves, actually the torch is based on rocket science, guaranteed.

Awesome!

[Greymatter Glass]

Henry @ GA took one apart a few years ago and presented the findings at GAS. It dispelled a lot of rumors about what's inside a GTT. It's a series of tubes for gas. There's no hidden mechanism, just what you see in the patent info.

That said, if you're not a competent skilled machinist don't bother trying to take it apart. You can replace valves and hoses sure... if you can figure out replacing a lightbulb you can do those parts... but opening the manifold is another story.

Also, not sure on the GTT, but many torches use at least one copper gasket, which is a one shot deal. Once it's removed you have to replace it with a new one. So you better know someone who can cut copper gaskets. (look up gaskets and packings in the yellow pages)

Finally I fully agree with paying W&W to tune up your torch if it's not running right. Give them a call, in many cases they can walk you through a basic cleaning like they did with Magma for free... but if something major is messed up, you should send it in.

Also, consider that anything that is sealed against gas leaks is water sealed as well. So yes, you can sue an ultrasonic cleaner.... just make sure you dry it afterwards. I personally would use an air compressor and maybe some anhydrous ethanol as well. (alcohol absorbs water and dries it faster)

-Doug

[highroller]

Thanx Box & Gray. That is what I was looking for, smart, thought out answers. I was not saying that they should not charge, just that they do now. I have access to a multi million dollar machine shop, that has all the equipment to do the decking of the face. I just dont know if they turn it on a lathe, mill it, flat polisher, or shit just flat sand it. Then I would only imagine that ultra-sonic cleaning after machining to remove metal and carbon at once. I will have to call and ask W&W. I will report back. Thanx Todd

[petto]

When you get serviced, you pay......boxfan

Quote of the day, lol. Thanks will, made my day :D.

and I agree, $150 is nothing for a brand new GTT, rock on W&W!!!!!!

[newmexicomagma]

Obviously I didn't mill the face down but don't feel there is a need either. If u use a ultrasonic cleaner just make sure to keep the face pointed down, don't let the fluid get to the manifold. Only dip it in 1/4 to a 1/2 in. In the fluid. Then use a compressor to blow the remaining liquid out. Constantly wipe the face off so u know when there is no more liquid. With a needle very carefully move the cener oxy port in small circles to break up any carbon in the propane tube. If your confident enough and careful enough you can clean it. This is all per wally. Thanks gtt.

[dorkeedude]

Kirby vacuums have a lifetime warranty , they also charge for a "tune up" .
Somethings are "disposable" parts or whatnot and occasionally need replacing or touch ups . I imagine this is what you pay for along with less headache and peace of mind .
All I have to say is I don't like Kirby's! I think they suck! no joke :D

[sleepingpeople]

so does it take a long time? I might be needing some service on my lynx. . .

[Headdi Retti's Glass Art Studio]

Great advice all the way around! Just depends on what's going on with your torch, and how confident you are with your on skills. If you bought a newer model that doesn't have lifetime warranty then a $150 service charge every couple years is well worth it for no headaches. And if you bought yours at a time when they had a lifetime warranty well then it should be taken care of free of charge. ( thus the meaning of lifetime warranty!). And this is good for all. Why? cause chances are those who have bought GTT's with lifetime warranty's long ago already own or will buy again another GTT. So its a win , win. Get your old one done for free when it needs till it's dead, and just pay only as you need to have your new one resurfaced. And always do the minor work yourself.

[STROKER]

i have a 5 year old delta that should qualify for free upkeep. how do you know if you are gonna get charged or not?

is anyone really sure they even offer any kind of lifetime work?

i have a few uneven candles that i would like to have tightened up but....

i hate the long delays,i only have one torch as my second is still on backorder at well you guessed it, gtt.

so, if they dont have serial numbers and i dont have the original receipt anymore, than how do you prove the age of torch?

[p.j.]

NONE of the torches had a lifetime warranty, not even the first one that they sold. they just cleaned them for free as a courtesy.

[STROKER]

^^^that was my thoughts too

[LTD]

You can tell if it is an older model by the type of hoses and how the knobs are attached.

[Headdi Retti's Glass Art Studio]

^^^^^^^ Now that makes even more sense!, Thx Pj, I was thinking it must be something like that but have heard of these supposed lifetime warranty's on other threads, Damn a person almost needs to budget two of them in so's always to have one on hand. This is of course impractical for most including me! GTT just makes a BadAss torch, so wait it is!.

[sleepingpeople]

when i use my 3rd blue valve on my lynx i can only turn it a little bit before my torch begins to hiss and candles become a bit uneven. any ideas? Would a service fix this, i just only hear of people having to wait long times for their services and no ones saying "oh yeah they did it great and nice turn around for good price", is why i ask

[hashmasta-kut]

do you ever wire brush your face and port hole ends, or try the wire they provide in all the holes to clean em too?

[J Howard]

They say that flames which mess up a gtt would mess up any other torch, but I don't thing that's really true. As far as I can tell, the truth is that if you don't have gas running through some of the ports, and you run the wrong flame, those ports will clog up quicker then you can say "oops". Not that I've ever done it.....


shit happens, these things are delicate! i clogged a few ports by not turning off the centerfire off all the way... left tiny little candles going. mine leaks just a little oxy and the propane knob didnt shut all the way, so make sure you look! thank god i was back in a few mins, or i would have killed a cobra.

you really cant run a soft (slow) flame on them (well, for long, that is) you have keep them throttled up. it is possible to manifold compressed air into the fuel, and that will help push the heat off the face, and you can approximate one, but its not really the same thing and you still have to keep the gas flowing. (i will be demoing this at agi). a bethlehem can do it because of the water cooling, carlisle's can do it, but still suffer from break down or spit carbon after a while (stainless steel face model is better), and herbert arnolds can do it really well because their ports are so big and can run air. its all about flame velocity vs keeping the torch face cool


i did find a good fix though. i have an original lynx from 2000 thats never been serviced. its my go in the kiln hand torch, my student torch, and has had the crap kicked out of it. finally got sick of only 3.5 ports so i used my dremel and the mini wire brush polishing attatchment and just polished the face from black to silver. i still used the gtt wire tool, but really the polish is it. when u seend one back to willy and wally, they machine the face. this is kind of like a mini version of that. worked so well i fixed the cobra too.

[p.j.]

when i use my 3rd blue valve on my lynx i can only turn it a little bit before my torch begins to hiss and candles become a bit uneven. any ideas? Would a service fix this, i just only hear of people having to wait long times for their services and no ones saying "oh yeah they did it great and nice turn around for good price", is why i ask

back off on the green valve as you add the blue. you will find there is a happy medium

[sleepingpeople]

its something more than just finding the balance right now. I will wire brush and clean it later today

[Din]

The Last post (http://http://www.talkglass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35758&page=2) on the linked page may help. But it sounds like you just need to clean the center ports with a wire.

[rockstar glassworks]

I've had my MIrage since last summer. I work full time on it. A couple times a day (since I'm fuming) I wire brush it, sorta between gently and not-so-gently. Every couple of weeks (or if a candle acts funny) I'll use the cleaning wire and maybe the needle-in-the-center port wiggle it in circles move.

Once a month it's cleaning wire and needle in circles regardless.

My face is sitll shiny, and she runs just like new.

Watch the video they send you, it really helps. Also, looking at the face of your torch once in a while (when running a suspect flame) to see if your ports are turing orange can really help you learn to run it right.

[LTD]

when i use my 3rd blue valve on my lynx i can only turn it a little bit before my torch begins to hiss and candles become a bit uneven. any ideas? Would a service fix this, i just only hear of people having to wait long times for their services and no ones saying "oh yeah they did it great and nice turn around for good price", is why i ask

Just my .02 I have sent in two separate Deltas for repairs, not service. Both were back in 10 business days. The first one was back when they were doing free cleanings and it came back all shiny. The second was after they dropped free cleanings, and it was brand spanking new looking when it went in so I am not sure if they cleaned it. Sorry for side tracking the thread, I just believe we hear only from those complaining of slow service and those who get stuff back fast don't really pipe up.

[sleepingpeople]

yeah i came to that kind of conclusion talking with sunray too. thanks i got some cleaning stuff and will work on it some more, thanks

[boxfan willy]

awww, it has already shipped 2 weeks from now...

[Jedeli173]

:D:tongue2::wes::devilish::depressed:bangHead:

[Jedeli173]

who called the drive flame a turbo? maybe that was their handle at the last flame off they went to! it seems a great many lampworkers got their start from another who may or may not have actually known what happens for which reasons. some view it as a mystical experience that cannot be fully explained by science. these are usually the same people who ask you a question and then proceed to tell you why your explanation is wrong or that you must have misunderstood what they wanted to know. this forum helps (thanks to matt and misha) but as with everything i've learned in the last 15 years the most important is to know that there are many solutions to every problem and there are varying degrees of right or wrong. for most if one is right they think the other is wrong, or they are just ignorant dicks trying to impose their will on you and most likely everyone around them. it's unlikely you could explain to that person the nature of the "turbo" knob even if they asked you too. they make good targets when you're having a bad day...

[$$$$$$$]

either way, I think they should charge for the cleaning. I'm sure there was people sending in their torches just because they could. I rarely clean my torch with the brush or the wires and it works just fine..

[Kevin Bumble]

so true^^^^^^^

[smutboy420]

Hum I dont know if it goes for anyone but Will has explained how the torches internals go together. Once when I said it would be cool to look inside the maifold my gtt just to see what its like inside. He basicly told me how it goes together. But he explained the internals so well I never had to take a peek being he drew the mental picture so well for me.

They are not scum bags hoping some ones torch gets messed up so they can get ya for a cleaning charge. Nore do I get the feeling that they dont want anyone to know how to keep there torch cleaned and running properly.

[cheezeburger]

i figured that i would throw you guys a bone...if you use the torch cleaning wire and you still cant unclog the fuel jets ( seems like the reason most people send ther torches back) , you can easily clean them out with a ultra sonic cleaner. even a cheap one used for cleaning jewerly is fine. i cleaned a delta that only 6 jets of the outside flame worked no problem. besides milling the face of the torch ( milling not sanding or grinding thers a big difference ) is probably the thing gtt does. the one i use i got from amazon for 70$, delivered in 2 days, and can clean a torch in an afternoon. just put about 1 inch of the end of the torch in the water bath with a few drops of soap, and run it for about 20-30 mins at a time, blasting it out with oxy and running it a bit between baths. should be really noticeable after the first run. brushing it in the bath also seems to help.

so if you dont want to send out your torch for god knows how long and pay a ton
just try the ultra sound cleaner. and if after ytour candles are too uneven for your likeing have any good machines shop mill off a 1/10,000 of an inch . probably less then 30$. never needed to myself tho..
if you have any questions ill try to answer some
heres the machine i recomend
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0006DOALG/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_2?pf_rd_p=486539851&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B000K7PT72&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=09XMVHM3JBYVFMTPSARW

pz out

[Headdi Retti's Glass Art Studio]

Welcome to TMP....Great 1 st post....=)

[neddowerx]

I'm waiting on my Phoenix bench burner to be cleaned, was told $75, its there now I have to wait. The candles where crazy un even to say the least. I just bought it used and won't get it until cleaned, I sure hope they make it like New again!