Mass Production

[Bluebird]

What the fuck is up with all thus massive production of glass these days!? I go on Ebay and theres a million beads that aren't handmade and a million pendants that aren't handmade. WTF! It makes guys like me or us have to work harder to slang our shit! I know basically all you guys are glassblowers and I'm not at that level yet but shits happening with pipes if I'm not mistaken. Etsy sucks too. Man it drives me nuts. It just seems like theres no way of making cash when the chinese blast a mass production of shit. Not that I have a problem with the choinese but fuck man. People at shops want to pay you penny's for your hard work... It's pretty weak:wes::tantrum::bangHead::rant:

[Slimy-E]

people and the right shops only want to buy american- lets hope it stays that way! we just have to keep our quility higher and our art sweeter!

[JENGA]

I wish everyone felt like that my main business right now is pendants and i cant keep up with the glass coming from over seas or there prices mass production to me is a loss of art

[Boxcutter]

you must be able to communicate and demonstrate the superiority of your product.
not everyone will listen though.
in the end, no matter what, you'll take a paycut.

[Uriel]

^^ what boxcutter says but id also add that if you aim to sell at handcrafted events then there's always scope to increase your prices and possibly make more money if your product stands out!

[JSR Studio]

make stuff that's better and worth more

[Conchis]

you must be able to communicate and demonstrate the superiority of your product.
not everyone will listen though.
in the end, no matter what, you'll take a paycut.

You got that right. I sell at a lot of arts/crafts shows. Some folks recognize the difference right away. There are some folks that can't tell the difference between glass and plastic. Mass produced stuff is going to take some potential customers away. It'll probably set a lower price point as the expectation for most customers so that over all it has the effect of lowering the price we'll be able to sell for, but there are still customers for quality work out there. The mass produced stuff tends to be the stuff that you learn to make in the first year or so of blowing, so you just have to up the skill level and do things that the mass produced stuff isn't making. What I really hate is seeing booths at arts/crafts shows that bring in cardboard boxes stamped China on the side and laying that stuff out....GRRRRR!!!

[Swampy]

It just seems like theres no way of making cash when the chinese blast a mass production of shit. Not that I have a problem with the choinese but fuck man.

Mrs Wong sits at her bench all day knocking them out so she gets pretty good at it after a couple of weeks.

The simple solution is that you have to get as good and then better than Mrs Wong :-)

[nodice]

What the fuck is up with all thus massive production of glass these days!?...

Why do you care so much that glass is mass produced? Is it just cause you can't make as much money as you wanted to? Why should shops buy your stuff and not chinese stuff? They're just trying to make money too, and it's a lot easier to make money off a glass bead when it costs them a quarter as much as your stuff.

[Slimy-E]

You got that right. I sell at a lot of arts/crafts shows. Some folks recognize the difference right away. There are some folks that can't tell the difference between glass and plastic. Mass produced stuff is going to take some potential customers away. It'll probably set a lower price point as the expectation for most customers so that over all it has the effect of lowering the price we'll be able to sell for, but there are still customers for quality work out there. The mass produced stuff tends to be the stuff that you learn to make in the first year or so of blowing, so you just have to up the skill level and do things that the mass produced stuff isn't making. What I really hate is seeing booths at arts/crafts shows that bring in cardboard boxes stamped China on the side and laying that stuff out....GRRRRR!!!

i dont think i could keep my mouth shut in that situation. It would just eat at me, I would have to say something, or start a riot!:D

[The Lorax]

don't make prodo then. simple.

[SNYD]

Make stuff better and different then all the stuff you see at your local shops. There is a huge untapped market out there, you just have to make your stuff unique and different then all the mass produced stuff out there. True some people can't tell the difference, but those people don't by 99% if the time anyway, the people who can tell the difference are the one's attention that you want to get.

[preglassok]

It took me one trip around to different pipe shops in my town to figure out who would like my glass and who buys american and who doesn't. After i picked my top 3 i went and talked to them, they all liked my stuff but one place stood out. and to this day i still am supported by 1 shop. they buy everything i make. And in OKC, they are known for high quality american products/ and harley davidson gear :-). Long story short, you don't want to sell your stuff to people that only want cheap china glass. Go find a good shop with quality glass, and that's who you should strive to do business with!!

[nicko0]

all the shops in my area sell import glass. very little of it is any better than trash. but it is the majority of there sales. i have brought in 25$ rev. spoons to some shops and on multiple occasions they have said the majority of pieces they sold until they ran out was my work, but they only get 100% markup instead of 200-300% and i cant produce to compete with import to fill there entire stock. so i dont fit into there lazy glass ordering patterns. i have considered importing so that i can handle all there business and work my stuff into there stock more easily.

there are some shops that only have import and some very low quality usa. there business suffers for it but i cant convince them to try usa and local; though i am quite confident in my belief due to doing business for so long with other shops.

i cant find tobacco pipe import laws.

i was learning how to do some animal figurines from a guy at a gun show and he wanted to know how to make pipes(he had never worked hollow) a customs agent came up to the table and said "we confiscate these things(picking up a spoon) when they come into the country" and the figurine worker said "thank you"! which changed the agents mood entirely from 'i want to shoot you' to, 'i want to shoot importers for you'

so i think most import pipes come in illegally and would cost many times more if they were taxed or may not be able to be imported at all legally.

are there any threads addressing this?

[e. mort]

Unfortunately, there are also a lot of part timers out there who do it for a hobby and just want to make a few bucks to pay for their supplies. Etsy and Ebay abound with that. Plus, there is a ton of imported crap out there. Me, I am a jerk about it. If you come to a juried show that only allows handmade stuff, and I see you putting out cheap import crap, I will rat you out to your customers and to the show managment. I even carry catalogs from rings-n-things, fire mountain, and rio grande, so I can point right to the page where it came from, though the made in china/india/etc bags are usually more than enough to do the job.

[Conchis]

hahahah I like the catalog carrying idea....I've complained...and you know what they do about it? NOTHING! They have told me it's too disruptive to have them move out during a show, while patrons are coming in and the solution is to not have them back next year...well ummm...how about putting up YELLOW CRIME SCENE tape around their booths....

[Bluebird]

Why do you care so much that glass is mass produced? Is it just cause you can't make as much money as you wanted to? Why should shops buy your stuff and not chinese stuff? They're just trying to make money too, and it's a lot easier to make money off a glass bead when it costs them a quarter as much as your stuff.

I understand your side of things. But when a person makes a commitment and a living off there art it becomes a problem. I'm not mad at people making money. Hell make millions and I applaud you. But when it comes to art, I mean art, it hurts the artist thats trying to make a living. I feel the same about paintings too brother. And all other types of art for that matter. I'm not tootin my horn horn here but my shit smashes there stuff in my opinion and to others as well. And I'm sorry for getting upset of what I'm about to tell you but you should know cuz your a fucken artist too! When your opinion becomes nuetral to that kind of area in art it makes me believe that you not a true artist. A true artist would vomit at the sight of fake art. That's only my opinion and I'm intitled to it. And when fucken art is made and bought it should be bought by an artist who fucken sat over that fucken torch for hours and made that piece with love. That's fucken art. If I ever bought any art it was made by a true artist because every piece of art an artist makes has a piece of there soul attached to it. I don't mean to stur shit up between me and you and I'm no internet banger but if you put in your two cents so am I. And your opinion is as fair as mine. Peace!

[Bluebird]

O.k o.k. I'm gonna have to respond to what I said here. I apologize for any static because I was upset. I had misguided anger and I wanted to blame somebody or anybody for my shortcomings. I especially apologize to Nodice for saying what I said. It was ignorant and childishly low thing to say. After a cool down I understand what Nodice meant. And I thank you for it. I can't be mad at the chinese, I can't be mad at people, I should just be upset at myself for not going about doing shit the right way nor thinking the right way. If people want to buy art, they get it from artists. If they want to buy "stuff" there intitled to it. And what I mean by that is if you go to walmart or target and get a print of a painting, go for it! It's not art to me but that's my opinion. Everybody is intitled to what they want and how they go about it and yes, everybody needs to eat and make a living. I'm just not on the other end of the fence here when it comes down to art. And if I was I more than likely would have a different opinion. And like I said I apologize to Nodice for that shitty response.

[Icarus]

I'm second thought, I'm going to keep my mouth shut.

[HiAltitude]

It seems furnace workers have learned to survive despite similar competitive pressures. Not to hijack the thread, but how do they do it? They must have much higher overhead costs. Just a thought.

[NUBBLET]

art vs craft is this the debate ? I am an artistic craftsman . I use my "expertness" in workmanship along with my creative power to produce a piece of work that is both visually pleasing and intriguing along with being structurally sound and durable .

I say if you are not in both you lack essential ingredients to be at the top of your game . They work together , only in this fucked up intardnet world do they conflict with each other .


Main Entry: 1craft
Pronunciation: \ˈkraft\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, strength, skill, from Old English cræft; akin to Old High German kraft strength
Date: before 12th century

1 : skill in planning, making, or executing : dexterity
2 a : an occupation or trade requiring manual dexterity or artistic skill <the carpenter's craft> <the craft of writing plays> <crafts such as pottery, carpentry, and sewing> b plural : articles made by craftspeople <a store selling crafts> <a crafts fair>
3 : skill in deceiving to gain an end <used craft and guile to close the deal>
4 : the members of a trade or trade association
5 plural usually craft a : a boat especially of small size b : aircraft c : spacecraft
synonyms see art


Main Entry: 2art
Pronunciation: \ˈärt\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin art-, ars — more at arm
Date: 13th century

1 : skill acquired by experience, study, or observation <the art of making friends>
2 a : a branch of learning: (1) : one of the humanities (2) plural : liberal arts b archaic : learning, scholarship
3 : an occupation requiring knowledge or skill <the art of organ building>
4 a : the conscious use of skill and creative imagination especially in the production of aesthetic objects; also : works so produced b (1) : fine arts (2) : one of the fine arts (3) : a graphic art
5 a archaic : a skillful plan b : the quality or state of being artful
6 : decorative or illustrative elements in printed matter
synonyms art, skill, cunning, artifice, craft mean the faculty of executing well what one has devised. art implies a personal, unanalyzable creative power <the art of choosing the right word>. skill stresses technical knowledge and proficiency <the skill of a glassblower>. cunning suggests ingenuity and subtlety in devising, inventing, or executing <a mystery plotted with great cunning>. artifice suggests technical skill especially in imitating things in nature <believed realism in film could be achieved only by artifice>. craft may imply expertness in workmanship <the craft of a master goldsmith>.



I saw a dude sellin lil mushy pendants he got from Mexico for 30 cents each , selling them with black cord for 5 bucks . I cant compete with 30 cents each but I can clean the bottom and cap it along with make a decent loop and whatnot .

Quantity or quality is the real question .

[ALIEN!]

remember kids, interfere and meddle with every import business you find. Find a china pipe website? Find something wrong about it and report it to the host. Know where illegal import pipes will be coming in? Report them. Place fake 100,000 dollar orders with the import sellers. Sink a chinese cargo ship. Fuck with them at every opportunity. Sink a chinese cargo ship.

[HiAltitude]

Actually, the original post asked how to compete with cheap mass produced imports. Whatever.

[Slimy-E]

remember kids, interfere and meddle with every import business you find. Find a china pipe website? Find something wrong about it and report it to the host. Know where illegal import pipes will be coming in? Report them. Place fake 100,000 dollar orders with the import sellers. Sink a chinese cargo ship. Fuck with them at every opportunity. Sink a chinese cargo ship.

Lmao:tongue2:

[nodice]

....But when it comes to art, I mean art, it hurts the artist thats trying to make a living...

It's funny to me how well people use the word "art" to their advantage, weather they're trying to sell an idea or an object. I mean, that's the only reason the word really exists isn't it? So people can use it to their advantage? Are you a businessman or an artist? There have been lots of famous artists(probably more famous then anyone on this website will ever be) who had nothing to show for their lifes work when they died other then a bunch of people thinking their art sucked. Does that make their stuff any less art? Businessmen and salesmen throw around the word art for reasons that usually have little to do with anything other then making money or making themselves feel like they're better then other people. Like how you use the word art to make your stuff seem like it's better then the stuff a guy in china might make. Not that it isn't better in some way:), but is his stuff any less "art" just because he gets paid less to make it?

[Slimy-E]

Andy Warhol believed in making art that was reprodicable or could be made in under a minute. He would change one color on each print and run off tons of them, each one an original. A quick scribble. There is a warhol muesum in pittsbugh, he always challanged what is art or what art is. I have no clue if im an artist or a craftsman or a pyromanicac- and honestly, I dont care.
(I like it when the ladies decide that im an artist though!):devilish:

[kage]

all i can say is that when i first started, i had a hard time selling to shops. two or three bought from me on the regular, but rarely got what i wanted out of the transactions. craft shows were the most successful. but when it came to making a living on my work, it was a matter of stepping up my game.
for instance, at one point i was making 4-7 pieces a night and feeling really proud about it. now i make 7 pieces an hr on avg. i don't take a break until i've got 10 in the kiln. cig after 10, safety break after 20, lunch after 30 etc. i used to have a "bench buddy" and we would race eachother for motivation, now i just race myself, watching the clock and aiming for $x$.

[The Lorax]

^ good post Kage.

I've been trying to step my game up, get rid of the excuses to go inside, layer up so i can't complain bout the cold, eat so i dont get hungry after making 1 piece... heh, i hate being my own boss as much as i like it sometimes..

[TheGlassTree]

let me tell you as a furnace worker these last two years have sucked! i have seen so manygreat shops in seattle take a serious nose dive or just close down all together... it happening brother low cost nontaxed imports made on a cheap labor force are killing the american industry! i have been a full time furnace worker for years and just a hobbyist lampworker and now i am doing everything in my power both in the hot shop and my own studio just to stay a full time glassblower instead of getting a Mcjob....

[HiAltitude]

Trying to compete over cheap products with a nation of well over 1 billion people who have a low cost of living and a state subsidized industry by upping one's own production of cheap products seems futile. And over-charging for cheap products ($5 for a .30 pendant) seems like a good way to alienate future customers. Seems like people need to offer something unique to justify the price... but maybe most customers can't judge quality, and only care about the low price.

Maybe the clothing industry is a better comparison. That's a sad thought.

[Bluebird]

Gotta give it up to Kage and HiAltitude. I try and see shit from different angles in life but I'm not being true to myself. I keep bouncing back and fourth with this matter. I went to a pipe shop the other day and spoke to some straight business dudes. I asked them if they want to do some biz and they asked me how much they would charge for certain pieces. Dude pulls out a descent looking piezo and asked me how much I would charge him for a piece like that and I replied... $35. Dude said then I would never do business with you cuz I get it from D.Town L.A for $15! Crazy shit man.

[CripSkillz]

I like to make less and sell for more,, but it has taken a while I was in the china competition boat for a while but i jumped ship and didnt sink.. so its game on.. more fun to make anything you want and be able to sell it.. Im not in it for the pay check but it is nice sometimes.. i guess thats what makes it so fun..

[kage]

Dude pulls out a descent looking piezo and asked me how much I would charge him for a piece like that and I replied... $35. Dude said then I would never do business with you cuz I get it from D.Town L.A for $15! Crazy shit man.

exactly. it may be china, it may be india, it may be the dude across town. but there will always be someone willing to do it cheaper than you.

if you are only offered $5 for something, then figure out a way to make it worth your time (cut prep, work straight off the tube, less rakes, less breaks etc.) tell them you'll do it at that price if they buy 50 or 100. or come to the table with a higher number knowing they will want it cheaper, and let them know that there is a price break if the quantity of their order exceeds x.

[bifwitsis209]

when i go into a shop and they have nothing but imports and wont give me 10 bucks for a bubbler i leave the store and sell stuff outside till they freak out.....word of mouth will have poeple looking for your stuff in no time.....they might be cops and pissed off shop owners but your case will get emptied quick.......

[NUBBLET]

And over-charging for cheap products ($5 for a .30 pendant) seems like a good way to alienate future customers. Seems like people need to offer something unique to justify the price... but maybe most customers can't judge quality, and only care about the low price.

Maybe the clothing industry is a better comparison. That's a sad thought.

It wasnt me , the guy didnt even work glass , and if you read what I said , you would notice I said I cant compete with that price but I can make something better as to justify why my work is more .

He went for quick uneducated sales , I will go for quality and sell to the educated market place . The vast majority of people are not the brightest , thankfully there are still enough people left with some kind of thought process still kickin , to give me a fair market .


I know this is not on topic

On the clothes thing , go into a cheap chain clothes store , say TJ Maxx or whatever , smell the clothes . They tend to have some funky ass fishy odor to them , but they are cheap . I will go for my t shirts and lounge pants to a place this is not an issue , even if I pay 5 bucks more .

[e. mort]

. They tend to have some funky ass fishy odor to them , but they are cheap . I will go for my t shirts and lounge pants to a place this is not an issue , even if I pay 5 bucks more .

Ok, so it isn't just me. I ordered some cloth bags to put my stuff in, and had to let them all air out because they smelled fishy too.

[dnug42]

well here we go again...yup yup la is a joke- you can get it all for nothing...tubes, db bubbs, proto- everyday whole blocks of warehouses- all not paying import tax- i saw iso spoons and onies for $2. wholesale...friggin a, thats ruff- but yea why dont they bust containers? who knows...lots of $$ to be scored by gov. but they jus look the other way... soft glass- forget it- there is so much of that sheet pouring into the country, its down right sad- same with every industry out there- i can say how many woodworkers have gone down because of imports- and nothing for nothing- most of the time its the lampworks whom care most about the glass- usually not the purchaser...well lets see what the CHAMPS (all american glass) has in store this year...hehe
goldy

[masterglaster]

The secret to survival?

Cultivate a taste for Kraft dinner and Ramen noodles.

[GlassFreak]

evolve

[NUBBLET]

evolve

I did , got gills now .

[GlassFreak]

I did , got gills now .

wish i could do it that fast...:depressed

[NUBBLET]

wish i could do it that fast...:depressed

shit your slow , just sprouted wings !

[byron3]

when i go into a shop and they have nothing but imports and wont give me 10 bucks for a bubbler i leave the store and sell stuff outside till they freak out.....word of mouth will have poeple looking for your stuff in no time.....they might be cops and pissed off shop owners but your case will get emptied quick.......

Jeez that will get them to buy from you again.......
Seriously you need a street peddlers license to sell off of our city sidewalks / lots.
First grudge sell out side of my shop and I call the city marshal, the fine for no license will wipe that smile right off your face. Then I go an a calling rampage, city fire marshal, state tax collectors, IRS........ do I need to go on? Ignorance begets ignorance........ I would never do those things unless you acted that way first.

Seriously would you want a group of citizens outside your glass lab picketing with signs about "the dope pipes" you are blowing?

Get over it and act like an adult, you could not force me or any other shop owner to buy...... but you could make one hell of an enemy very quickly. Is that the way you roll?

[bifwitsis209]

I would understand how it would piss off an owner... that is what I have intended it to do in the past..... With that said... The owners of the shop were more worried about sellin dream catchers and speed pipes so I never intended on selling there again....

[raven sun]

i have been blowing since '95. in the beginning i couldnt make shit bad enough to not sell, people even wanted the unuseable pieces. over the years though, as the market grew and the number of blowers increased, the game became more serious. as a reaction, i started making all kinds of crazy pieces to stay competitive, like fish and shrooms and dubs/triples.

i have never had problems selling to stores until recently. one of my main problems is that i will stop doing business with stores who import cheap shit. but that seems to be almost everybody i do business with. now when i try to hook up new stores they want everything super cheap... only the cost of production and living expenses has gone UP. so how am i supposed to justify working for $2-$5 after expenses? if we had the same economic conditions as china then it would be all fair, but we dont.

this is an economic war on you. if you dont think so, then you arent paying attention. i suggest visiting bloomberg every once and a while to see how the corporate/political game is being played. we are living in a wealth grab society wherein the top 3% end up with 90% of the resources. china has become a tool, or weapon, that is being used to further drive down the world standard of living. yeah, i know that other countries have it way worse than we do in the US, but does that mean we should help out third world countries to economically enslave their people instead of providing equal wealth distribution?

supporters of the US trade policy need to be voted out of office. one of the best ways to "vote" is with your dollars. start by never even going into a wal-mart, i dont even accept presents bought from there. also, buy things that are made/grown locally, as much as possible, that way the money stays in your own community. i realize this philosophy is not going to change things quickly or maybe at all, but if enough of us "live the protest" others will join in eventually. i am currently looking for stores that only carry local/non-imported products, but it seems that is a dream. as a result i am opening my own store and will follow my own advice. that might be the best solution, as it seems more people are wanting to buy local. kind of like a permanent art fair. if that doesnt work, i am going to go live naked in the jungle and eat papaya. /RANT

[GlassFreak]

shit your slow , just sprouted wings !

that would be the shit, gills AND wings! would you be like the opposite of a dolphin then? fly in the sky but every few minutes you have to go under water to breath? TRIPPY...

[ALIEN!]

I think the best thing for any of us to do is partner up with another blower or two that you trust and open up shop for yourselves and mark your prices barely above wholesale. You will be the only competition in town in a short matter of time, then you can raise prices, just be reasonable. I had some people I really liked totally slap me in the face today with their greed. The gloves are officially off in Waukesha. From here on Im only looking out for me and mine.

[byron3]

I am thinking it would do some of you good to walk in the "shop owner shoes", give you a whole other outlook on life. With overhead and custy's to deal with..... who gets to work and who makes the sales? who pays the bills and who pays for supplies...... ahhhhhh shit just go open you a shop and let me know how that works for you.

And the pricing thing is priceless, flood the market with your "cheap" glass and put your competition out of business. Then when your customers see your prices rising and start bitch'n you can just smile and tell them how good they have got it.

Best laid plans of mice and men...............

[nodice]

.....if we had the same economic conditions as china then it would be all fair, but we dont.
...
one of the best ways to "vote" is with your dollars. start by never even going into a wal-mart, i dont even accept presents bought from there. also, buy things that are made/grown locally, as much as possible, that way the money stays in your own community. i realize this philosophy is not going to change things quickly or maybe at all, but if enough of us "live the protest" others will join in eventually....

I don't think spending $500 a year on food that's made in ohio(or wherever you live) instead of florida is going to change much. You say that people in other countries have it worse then we do, but that's because each and every one of us exploits people to do jobs for less then we're willing to do them for. Of course, when it effects what we sell........

[raven sun]

I don't think spending $500 a year on food that's made in ohio(or wherever you live) instead of florida is going to change much. You say that people in other countries have it worse then we do, but that's because each and every one of us exploits people to do jobs for less then we're willing to do them for. Of course, when it effects what we sell........
well, food grown locally will be fresher and in better condition than food shipped in, unless you only eat boxed food...and the shipping of food is a wasteful, unenvironmental, corporate structure that is incongruous with the small artist philosophy...so i dont support it when i have a choice...

and yes, we(developed countries) exploit people in poor countries because we can, that is wrong...that is why i buy local and do as much of my own work as i can...such as all my own automotive repair...but to me it is just a small part of my bigger philosophy which includes taking in homeless teens and helping out strangers in need...do i think im changing the world?...yeah, the little part i live in anyway...

[raven sun]

I am thinking it would do some of you good to walk in the "shop owner shoes", give you a whole other outlook on life. With overhead and custy's to deal with..... who gets to work and who makes the sales? who pays the bills and who pays for supplies...... ahhhhhh shit just go open you a shop and let me know how that works for you.

And the pricing thing is priceless, flood the market with your "cheap" glass and put your competition out of business. Then when your customers see your prices rising and start bitch'n you can just smile and tell them how good they have got it.

Best laid plans of mice and men...............
why do store owners in the pipe market in particular think they deserve a 100% mark-up?...the average retail mark-up is 12-15% which is still better than investing in the stock market...i have a considerable amount of retail experience and realize it is hard work, but that doesnt make it right to be greedy by importing cheap shit and marking it up 300%...thats doing the devils work in my opinion...i do the design, labor and market research for my product, why should i give half the value of the product to the store? if they can move all my product at the inflated price in a reasonable time frame(less than a month), then i am fine with huge mark-up, but in my experience, most stores do nothing to increase sales or promote artists, and even when my products fly off the shelves as they often do, the next time i go in, the buyer will try to talk me down in price anyway, why?, maybe more store owners need to take business classes...

[byron3]

/\/\/\/\ So you have a big bad ass store right? I mean you can talk that talk but can you walk that walk?

So how much of a mark up do you have on your glass, tell the truth....... Blowers on this forum have repeatedly dodged that question. I can assure you, you have a much greater than 100% markup for materials and supplies. But of course you do not want to discuss that do you?
"average retail mark-up is 12-15%" wtf, where do you get these figures? Your retail experience, did you work for someone else or were you running the show? Your not doing it now, what went wrong?
Perhaps those business classes you are suggesting might not be a bad thing for you to look into.........

[nodice]

well, food grown locally will be fresher and in better condition than food shipped in, unless you only eat boxed food...and the shipping of food is a wasteful, unenvironmental, corporate structure that is incongruous with the small artist philosophy...so i dont support it when i have a choice.........

Food grown locally might not be fresher or in better condition then food that's shipped. Small artists can be very wasteful, and unenvironmental. At least when you ship food, someone can be fed.

Let's say a store sells $100000 worth of stuff a year, and they make 15% on that. That's 15000 not including the rent they have to pay, or the insurance, or whatever else. A lot of stores don't really get as much business as you'd think. Some of them really need to make 50 or 75% of that 100000 to stay afloat, and maybe a little so they can eat and what not.

[kage]

So how much of a mark up do you have on your glass, tell the truth....... Blowers on this forum have repeatedly dodged that question. I can assure you, you have a much greater than 100% markup for materials and supplies. But of course you do not want to discuss that do you?


fuck that.
sorry i couldn't keep quiet here.
raw glass is expensive. so is the gas to run torches and electricity for kilns. what about the hours of labor? am i supposed to just work for free?

why does the store ower have the right to make more off my work than me? Over 100% retail markup is fucked no matter how you look at it.

btw-your avg, high end galleries only take 50%. all while educating their customers about the artist and their work. informing them of what it takes to create such objects, therefore justifying the worth of said object.

[byron3]

I keep asking where these figures come from everyone wants to throw around.


Net Profit Margin Example
In 2009, Donna Manufacturing sold 100,000 widgets for $5 each, with a cost of goods sold of $2 each. It had $150,000 in operating expenses, and paid $52,500 in income taxes. What is the net profit margin?

First, we need to find the revenue or total sales. If Donna's sold 100,000 widgets at $5 each, it generated a total of $500,000 in revenue. The company's cost of goods sold was $2 per widget; 100,000 widgets at $2 each is equal to $200,000 in costs. This leaves a gross profit of $300,000 ($500k revenue - $200k cost of goods sold). Subtracting $150,000 in operating expenses from the $300,000 gross profit leaves us with $150,000 income before taxes. Subtracting the tax bill of $52,500, we are left with a net profit of $97,500.

Plugging this information into our formula, we get:

$97,500 net profit ÷ $500,000 revenue = 0.195 net profit margin (http://beginnersinvest.about.com/od/incomestatementanalysis/a/net-profit-margin.htm)

Now just because you sell pipe "A" to shop owner for $2.00 and shop owner sells for $6.00 does not mean they have a 300% profit margin. Business's that simply double (keystone, which by the way is pretty much an industry standard ~you pick the industry~) are the ones out of business in the tough economic times.....

Who do any of you think you are that you can set a buyers sell price? This would be akin to a tube company (Pyrex, Simax, UST) telling you that their 26.0 X 4 sells for $9.16 a piece, you can get 19 (3") pieces worth $0.48 ea. So even after you fume it and shape it (use maybe $0.50 worth of oxy and propane) that you can only sell it for $2.00. Oh and do not holler about your labor, a shop keeper has the same labor involved to SELL the pipe. After all we are discussing cost of product vs selling price not labor of either party.

[Doc Holliday]

I have no problem with 100% markup. How does a store survive off of 50 percent or less for that matter. They have overhead such as retail shop rent, workers wages (including the owner if they man the store), taxes, and they have the money up front ready to purchase more inventory.

As a glassblower who works out of my house... I have morgatge/rent, gas bill, electric bill, and hourly wage for myself.

We both have some hefty expenses. And to make it work you need to be able to work with each other... We need shop owners as much or more than shop owners need us. I'm tired of the bullshit about markup. Its buisness. Set your wholesale price at the dollar amount you need and don't take less. Who cares what they mark it up to...

[masterglaster]

Selling retail for two times wholesale cost has been standard practice for many years. Not all stores take that mark up. Many take considerably more. Consignment galleries demanding 60% of the sale (artist gets 40%) aren't uncommon. Jeweler usually expect to sell for 3 to 4 times their cost.

Anybody that thinks the retail markup is creating huge profits for retailers should ask why so many retailers are going broke. If you think retailing is such a great gig, why not open a store?

[GlassFreak]

i dont see a problem with 100% markup when it comes to prodo work, where i live, the one tobaco shop in town buys cheap shit and marks it up 300% no matter what, i worked there so i know. this makes it really hard to sell them stuff for what i want and i usually find myself agreeing to prices i wouldnt think of... but at the same time i cant really sell them to them for what i want because they will be marked up 300+% and nobody wants to buy a 50$ spoon in this shitty little town...

[Doc Holliday]

So you guys are saying there is no money in selling pipes to indian gas stations? Who knew? I think I will try to sell watering globes to walmart instead...

Most of my pipes are marked up over 100%. If certain ones don't sell, I simply stop making those and move on.
Try going to nicer shops and becoming friends with the owner.(Or at least friendly)
I've dealt with a lot of holes in the wall over the past few yrs, and its just not worth the time and effort to make sales to them.
Right now I only have a few good accounts and frankly that's all I ever needed. 1 person who can live up to their word and come through when needed.
Again it comes hand in hand. If you want good treatment, give some back to the shop. I constantly change my products to keep up with the market and kick down freebies here and there for supporting me.

Yes I am a noob, but I'm finally getting a feel for how this game works.

End of rant

[GlassFreak]

^^^ yea thats why im moving... aint shit around here...

[Bo Diddles]

Now just because you sell pipe "A" to shop owner for $2.00 and shop owner sells for $6.00 does not mean they have a 300% profit margin.

Who said anything about profit margin? Wasn't the discussion about the markup, not the profit margin?
Shop owners work hard, have lots of costs, and it's tough to run a retail business in these economic times. But there's a difference between shop owners and pipe makers. The pipe makers create something, using years of skill along with some creativity, and then see their creations get sold for at least twice what they received for them. Maybe that's business, maybe that's life, but it kind of sucks when you think about it, even if you're aware of the reasons. The difference in perspective is that the retail owners are not creating something (unless they're blowers as well); there's no artistic aspect to owning a shop, they are simply retailers who buy product for one price and sell it for another. Comparing running of a retail shop to creating what some people regard as art is bullshit. Yes, you can break it down to dollars and cents and costs involved, but try to understand why it's tough to come to terms with a huge mark up when you're the one who created the piece. Maybe you would understand this perspective a little better if you were into glass for the creative / artistic aspect, as opposed to finding a way to make money for your shop, but that's just my opinion.
Try to put ourselves in the shoes of a retail shop owner? Fuck that. This is a glass forum - I'd rather bitch about shop owners than get their perspective. I realize that sounds obtuse, but I come to this forum to communicate with other blowers, not with retail shop owners.
I'm getting tired of the insulting tone of your posts - why don't you just post your opinion without talking down to other members?

[kage]

^ +1

were not talking about machine made fucking widgets here either.

i am talking about physical labor.

i'm talking about passion with little glory
blood, sweat, tears and yada yada.
ie: i sliced a tendon once and was out of work for 2 weeks.

sitting on your ass in a heated store, arranging shelves and showing people pipes is neither hard nor risky.

i pay taxes too. i have my shit in order. you can try to justify a shop owners expenses and act like there's more shit on his or her plate but you are sadly mistaken.

[bifwitsis209]

It's all buisness.... Some people have shitty morals and some don't... I myself strive to be a thorn in the side of shitheads......My mullet hairdoo and wolf sweater are almost perfect.... And I may be seen outside a shop near you....i say leave the 300% markup to the wip-it's digi scales and detox shit... Not the local made stuff that people love to make.....

[GlassFreak]

^^^ YAR!!! theres plenty more for shop owners to make money off of without stalling the market for local pipes all together...

[nodice]

Don't you think it a little hypocritical that you guys are bitching about how much a store makes because you want to make a higher percentage? Stores are out there to make money. If you don't like it, don't sell to them.

[GlassFreak]

^^^ thats why i plan on opening a store and sellin my shit for whatever i want, fuck selling out cheap so someone else can make 3 times the money you do for nothing more than putting your glass from one case to another... that way i wont have to deal with dickhead shop owners that offer me 5 bucks for a reversal chillum...

[Doc Holliday]

Sounds like a bunch of pissy blowers who are having a rough time trying to get by...

Don't get me wrong I am one of them. But I disagree 100% with the way some of you talk down on headshops. Sure the majority of them suck... But the majority of glassblowers suck as well.
I am the worst buisnessman I know. My shopmates all get paid cash and I look at little to no money for my own pockets because every penny I make goes back into the glass shop. Its a grind.
Thighten up your skillz and create a demand for yourself otherwise you will always be the 5 dollar chillum man.
Reality is a bitch, but gotta see it to start the improvments. I know I am. My brain is full of stress. I am getting better at glass. My shop is growing. But I still need MAJOR changes for me to be succesful.

I guess all I'm saying is quit passing the blame on everyone but yourself. I been in the game for around 5 yrs and I'm still in the negative. Its my fault too. Time to step it up, I suggest others to do the same.

[kage]

Sounds like a bunch of pissy blowers who are having a rough time trying to get by...


wrong. i get by fine. i support a family of four all by myself with my work. sounds like you're just coming up and out of place in this thread. no offense, but call me in 8 yrs.
100% markup has become common and i am now comfortable with that. (i may have mispoke in one of my previous posts.)

i remember a time when a standard retail markup was around 30%. i get these figures from the shops i first started selling to. they were happy, i was happy, pieces flew off the shelves.

buy a $2 spoon from a catalog and sell it for whatever you want, i don't care. but why screw over the local guy, the little guy? why not just give him the $3 he deserves. the fact is, he did the work and only profits >$2 so you can profit $4? :tongue2:...ass.

anything over 100% is not cool to me. i just think that when you make more $$ off of my work than i do, then your a thief. thats all there is to it.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
edited to reduce vulgarity and rudeness

[bifwitsis209]

^^^^^^^^^word^^^^^^^^^^^

[nodice]

..i remember a time when a standard retail markup was around 30%.....

I don't.

[Zed]

People just need to price their work to get what they need out of it to make a fair wage that reflects their skill level and overhead. Sell for this price, stay firm about that, then stop caring what happens after that point. Trying to figure out how much the headshops make and then pricing your work higher in a attempt to get a larger percentage is a bad business practice. 100% or 400% it shouldn't matter to you as long as you get what you need out of the deal. Make your money and then let it go, or plan to be frustrated and to have your work passed over in favor of another blower who is easier to deal with. I don't know of any buyer who would want to deal with a blower who views him as a enemy.

[nicko0]

one has to make a certain amount of money to pay for the minimum cost of living in the us. i live in a very poor state.

when my work is the highest quality and i can produce it as efficiently as i think can be done i charge a dollar a minute on the time it takes to produce the actual piece including prep.

if i cant make a style of piece with less than 10% fuel/materials i stop making it.

i avoid private sales but if the shops arent biting i sell wholesale to anyone, starting with there employees. i always ask the purchasing manager if they think its cool to sell to there employees. they dont mind because its headies they cant sell or are too unusual anyway.

most shops here try to rape the custy. and the custy knows it and there business suffers but the owners dont seem to think there store sucks
its really frustrating doing everything you possibly can to work with a shity store and find it impossible. i could use a hundred a month from each of the five stores that fit this category.

[3ripmin]

to the people that say " just open your own head shop" do you know how much it costs to open a good head shop?

plus, all the markup just goes for the hours that you spend trying to sell the shit.

im happy with 50%.

[byron3]

/]\/\/\/\ WORD.......

I have opened up two different shop locations, one on River Street (our tourist trap street) and one on MLK (current Savannah revitalization project). Both were shells, it is very rare you find a store front that is turn key. The first shop cost me $12,000.00 to set up, and that was just basic electricity, HVAC, and water. The second one cost me $9,000.00 to set up, temp walls, new tile floor, additional electrical circuits. Still haven't finished the build out, have a wall that needs shelving (slat wall or gondola), but because money is tight I will just have to work with what I have. I do not know about where you live, but here in Savannah all commercial work has to be done by a licensed contractor..... Good ole boy system, file for building permits and each one has a slip that must be signed by a licensed contractor before any work can be done. I was once held up for 3 weeks by a code inspector because I set a toilet on its flange. Had to take down a sheet rock wall because the inspector did not get to see the work behind it. The wall had already been taped, mudded and painted.
That just gets you a place to work out of, you still have to buy fixtures (shelving, display cases, etc.), and how much inventory do you think a 2,000 sq. ft. store needs to not look bare? I generally have $40,000.00 to $60,000.00 at inventory time for taxes. No prob for most of you, right? How about that signage out front, $2000.00 for a 20' canopy or $5000.00 for a lighted sign? Oh and lest not forget advertising, ever priced radio ads? How about cable commercials? OK, just a decent size ad in print?

How about customer relations, what happens when you realize that cute little hippie chick that smelled like patchouli kept you occupied while her boyfriend stole shit out of your display cases? Custy's think shop owners are rolling in money so it does not bother them to steal from you, after all you can afford it that is why your prices are so high. What about the customer who calls and wants to know if you will take back that bottle of synthetic urine and the detox you sold them back in 6-6-09 (yes, they had the receipt). How about the two undercover detectives, she is explicit that she wants a marijuana pipe. After you tell them that type of language is not permitted she states, "I do not want any of these crack pipes, I simply want a pipe to smoke my marijuana out of"....
Ever wonder what it would be like to have to ask two undercover detectives to leave your business establishment?

Lets take a logical look at the shop owner / blower relationship.
The glass blower : makes glass products for resale. You either have to sell to a distributor, a shop, or a private individual.

All BS aside about the "artsy fartsy" thing everyone is so quick to reference, you blow glass to make money..... No one gives their pieces away because they simply were artist with a need to create and need to give their creations away to spread the art.

Now a shop owner NEEDS glass to make sells. I can go to a catalog, browse in the comfort of my store at my leisure. I have no pressure, I look and either I buy or I get another company's catalog. I do have the option of calling any distributor and bargaining. 10% - 30% discount based on volume of purchase, the company can always say "NO", but I have that right to negotiate and have never heard a cross word about it from a distributor (that is the nature of the business). So now you open your case and show me a pipe, "I can sell you these for $10.00", As the purchaser I evaluate -> I can buy that same piece or something close for $8.00 (catalog price), but do not forget about that volume discount (20% discount makes that pipe $6.40). Now I offer you $7.00 for your piece and you catch a tude with me...........
I am no dummy, I am in business to make money!!!!!! (just like you) I turn down your prices because I can either get the same thing cheaper some place else ( I would be dumb not to buy form you if your prices are cheaper) or I can fill my cases with other styles that will have a much better profit margin than I will get with you. It is not PERSONAL, I have a family and my job in life is to provide for them the best I can, I do not remember adopting any of you folks. I have to do what is best for me and my family, greed has nothing to do with it. Trust me if money was what life was all about then I would have picked a different profession, banker, lawyer, brain surgeon............

So perhaps some of you should sit back and reevaluate your positions in life,

[dnug42]

hey byron are you a glass blower as well as shop owner?

[byron3]

Yes

[kage]

shitty at both apparently.

hey byron you haven't taught me anything nor changed my attitude toward you.
take your shit talk to the pipe store owners forum. i've said my piece.

[byron3]

Your jealousy shows, I am quite successful at both. Shop owner since 1990, majority of glass sells now are all products that I have blown.

You have nothing valid to say, so you make personal attacks.

Oh I am overwhelmed by your intelligence........lol......lol......rofl.....rof lmao........

[NUBBLET]

so sell your shop , no money in it and sounds like a headache you shouldnt have .

[byron3]

Sure you willing to plonk down that $200,000.00, I will gladly hand you a set of keys. Oh but I am not signing a non-competition clause........ I have over $2 million dollars worth of retail sells over the last 20 yrs. You buy this shop and I will open another one right around the corner, been there done that.........

[nicko0]

so byron3, whats your view on the import glass.

[P-G-W]

I should probably have my head examined for jumping in here with my two cents worth, but here it is....

Set your prices, and don't sell your art for anything less than your bottom line. If the store owner wants to do business with you, they will. If not, just move on.

Personally, I couldn't care less what they mark it up to. I already got paid on my end, so if they can get ahead by selling it for some outrageous price, let em.

Sure, you all know I'm new to this, but I'm not new to business. And that's all this is, a discussion on capitalism. :)

[NUBBLET]

Sure you willing to plonk down that $200,000.00, I will gladly hand you a set of keys. Oh but I am not signing a non-competition clause........ I have over $2 million dollars worth of retail sells over the last 20 yrs. You buy this shop and I will open another one right around the corner, been there done that.........
Wait , why not sell YOUR work to MY shop ? I only will double your price , shit I wont even import stuff .


Yeah that 100,000 a year even gross would be hard to live on , glad the workers make more . Oh but I forgot , about the fact MOST of what you sell YOU make .

Shop owners got it ruff .


Different field , but my lady worked crazy ass overtime last year (health care) , I mean like up to 80plus hours a week , pulled down around 40,000 gross .
But I still feel for the shop owners , they work HARD for their money .

[byron3]

Lets see, you really want to go there..... this thread doesn't stink enough already.

Once again my path in life is to provide for me and my family, I have to look out for #1......... I really do not think any of you have my best interest in mind. Even though I can feel the love every time I read replies I doubt any of you would loan me a $0.10 for a pack of life savers if I were drowning.

With that being said I have to compete with my local market, after all I am not selling but out of one store front here in Savannah. Now if everybody in Savannah sells USA blown glass then that is all I am selling. But if Joe Smoe stocks his place up with cheap import glass, then I have no choice but to do the same. Now you can grumble, bitch, moan and groan about this but if you can not show me a way to compete with Joe Smoe I have no choice but to play in his sand box. Customers do not give a shit where that glass was made, you can tell whatever lies you want on this subject but the bottom line price is what custy's look at. When they tell you they can go to Joe Smoe and get it cheaper then you "belly up to the bar"........... If I have to sell import glass to ensure the well being of me and my family then that is what I will do, no matter what you think / say about me. After all you are only a figment of my imagination that I converse with form time to time. If your opinions adversely effect me then I will find other venues to converse and share with others and I will join the scores of other blowers who have tired with this forum and no longer visit.

[nicko0]

i believe that is what this thread is supposed to be about.

and is what is so angering.

[Bo Diddles]

Perfect.

[byron3]

No I believe the OP dealt with a shop that was making more money off of a pipe than he was......

China Prodo is an inflammatory subject around here, just run a quick search for that topic and read some threads that have dealt with that lately. You asking my thoughts is you simply looking for ammunition to make derogatory remarks about me based on my comments. I do not like being baited, surely I do not need to school an astute man such as yourself. So now you really do not have a clue what is going on, really?

[chayes]

But if Joe Smoe stocks his place up with cheap import glass, then I have no choice but to do the same
Joe Smoe sucks.

[byron3]

Joe Smoe sucks.

Yes I have the same sentiments, glad we can agree on something.

[chayes]

I never disagreed with you on anything, actually i've been leaving this thread alone. I know what your talking about though.

[NUBBLET]

so byron3, whats your view on the import glass.

i believe that is what this thread is supposed to be about.

and is what is so angering.
No I believe the OP dealt with a shop that was making more money off of a pipe than he was......

China Prodo is an inflammatory subject around here, just run a quick search for that topic and read some threads that have dealt with that lately. You asking my thoughts is you simply looking for ammunition to make derogatory remarks about me based on my comments. I do not like being baited, surely I do not need to school an astute man such as yourself. So now you really do not have a clue what is going on, really?
here is the OP , you may have missed it . It is a touchy subject around here , some make loaves of bread and tubs of butter from their prodo . When glass is taxed and duties and shit are all taken care of , its not that hard to compete with them , but when they ship god knows how many that are carelessly and hastily put together and ship under radar or skirt costs or laws some how , they get dumped at such low prices for quick turnover . There has been cases of certain holes being left out till they get here and the rest of the labor force drills em out , just to skirt costs ILLEGALLY . This type shit is bunk . Why not support the locals , kinda like toss the dude change when you can , it may keep him from your backyard or house , if you support local and let it be known youll do just as well or better . People may not be educated , but they do care sometimes , and most like to be educated , just let them know you buy from their neighbor , you know the guy with his girlfriend and daughter they see at the grocery store or whos daughter goes to school with theirs and plays with them at the park , they are good people .

What the fuck is up with all thus massive production of glass these days!? I go on Ebay and theres a million beads that aren't handmade and a million pendants that aren't handmade. WTF! It makes guys like me or us have to work harder to slang our shit! I know basically all you guys are glassblowers and I'm not at that level yet but shits happening with pipes if I'm not mistaken. Etsy sucks too. Man it drives me nuts. It just seems like theres no way of making cash when the chinese blast a mass production of shit. Not that I have a problem with the choinese but fuck man. People at shops want to pay you penny's for your hard work... It's pretty weak:wes::tantrum::bangHead::rant:


Oh guess what shop went out of business in spokane , the one that jacked the price of import shit through the roof , I guess the signs of "we have over 150 US artists and the largest selection of LOCAL glass in town" worked

[nicko0]

byron3, not a bait, although you went for it like it was anyway.

i just wanted to remind you your trying to defend illegal activities that are affecting many livelihoods and should be addressed in a straight forward manner.

you gotta do what you gotta do for you and yours just dont expect evreyone to be happy about it.

i get the feeling your looking for justification, knowing your not going to find it here.

what happened?

[3ripmin]

look, byron knows that he is a big time douche shop owner that fucks over the little guy, but he needs to feed his family and some how that makes it all ok.

[dnug42]

nice 3rip...well said....

[byron3]

i just wanted to remind you your trying to defend illegal activities that are affecting many livelihoods and should be addressed in a straight forward manner.

Ray you are so smug in your attitude, why is it people climb up on their morale high horse when it is convenient / self-serving?
Every state in the United States and the federal government have anti-paraphernalia statues. Any pipe that you make that has 3 holes / carburetor hole meets the criteria of paraphernalia. So you are advocating that we need to contact the federal and state authorities to address you in a straight forward manner? I mean if you are so pure you would have no problems selling to customers located in the Western District of Pennsylvania? I know your simpleton thought process did not allow you to think that line of thought out fully , right?? How about that safety break material you got, get it at the local supermarket? Your self righteousness makes me laugh and defines the rudimentary simpleness of your thinking. The only thing lower in my book than a Chinese Glass importer is a snitch, you have really defined yourself to me...


you gotta do what you gotta do for you and yours just dont expect evreyone to be happy about it.

Hmmmmm, can you quote me where I asked anyone to be happy about it? I do not remember stating I was HAPPY about the situation. What I do know is it is a fact of life, just as our government can not stop the flow of illegal drugs, human trafficking, arms sells or a whole list of activities that importing illegal pipe products pale in comparison to. You will never be able to stem the flow of imported glass into the US. You can whine and cry about it all you want or you can belly up to the bar and do something pro active about it. Oh and its just not the Chinese that are squeezing the independent blower out. Evan though it's not as prevalent there is Mexican glass, Canadian Glass, and even your fellow blower in America is trying to cut your throat..........Your buddy down the street that has a wife and kids to feed is cutting your throats in these hard economic times, after all we all do what we have to do to survive. If you are naive enough to believe your best friend want bite your style and undercut your price to survive then you deserve to whine and go hungry.

There are shops right here in the good ole USA that are hurting you, forget about the imports....... While you buy your glass of the 1-5 case columns these companies have went straight to the source and are buying truck loads of glass right form the manufacturer, they cut out the middle man stock distributor so that they have even better profit margins. They buy bulk oxy, do a little search and find the thread where Cornerstone Glass talks about how cheap they get oxy. I would go on but it is really clear you do not have the ability to understand these complex thought process's.


i get the feeling your looking for justification, knowing your not going to find it here.

Justification for what Ray? For taking care of me and mine? I would only need to justify what I do if a reasonable and prudent person can not understand my actions. Well once again you have defined yourself quite well...........

For the rest of you with the name calling, that is what grade school children do. This is an adult forum, if you can not logically discuss these issues please refrain from joining the discussions. The short version here would be "Grow the F@@k up".

[3ripmin]

byron, how come some shops can make it just fine without buying imported shit?

wouldnt it make you feel good to help out some local glass blowers instead of trying to nickle and dime them?

[byron3]

byron, how come some shops can make it just fine without buying imported shit?

wouldnt it make you feel good to help out some local glass blowers instead of trying to nickle and dime them?

Once again you need to go back and read this thread in it's entirety, Please quote me where I said I currently buy imported glass. Do not make accusations that you can not prove, be like me asking you why you like to eat s*@t.......... I think you get the point here!!!!!!

I am on the east coast, the only glass blowers around here are 4 hrs. or so away. It is not nickle and dime, do not be so petty......... Once again you are trying to paint a picture that does not exist, "imported shit", "feel good", "nickle and dime them". You are trying to invoke an emotional response from the reader, not provide any type of logical reasoning to support your stance............

[kage]

byron you are joe smoe. instead of selling quality, you go for the drastic price increase of shitty glass in order to compete with another stores prices.

i would say that maybe you should educate your customers about good, quality glass, but it seems that you don't even know the difference yourself. therefore, i feel sorry for you.

so maybe another blower comes to your shop and shows you his work. you automatically want to cut 30% off the top bc you compare his work to a shitty import. similar yes, but if you can't tell the difference then maybe you shouldn't be selling glass.

maybe if you just gave him the $10 that he asked then he wouldn't get a "tude" with you. mark it up the same, and tell your "custys" how this piece was made down the street and that piece was made in a sweat shop. they will go for local, quality made pieces more than you think, even if it is a few bucks more.

but instead, you give them the options of choosing between crap and shit.

[byron3]

Can you just not comprehend what I just got through writing????

[CripSkillz]

So are you saying that if I make a bub with a GoG and it only has 2 holes its legal.. hummm nice..

[byron3]

(d) ''Drug paraphernalia'' defined
The term ''drug paraphernalia'' means any equipment, product, or material of any kind which is primarily intended or designed for use in manufacturing, compounding, converting, concealing, producing, processing, preparing, injecting, ingesting, inhaling, or otherwise introducing into the human body a controlled substance, possession of which is unlawful under this subchapter. It includes items primarily intended or designed for use in ingesting, inhaling, or otherwise introducing marijuana, (FOOTNOTE 1) cocaine, hashish, hashish oil, PCP, methamphetamine, or amphetamines into the human body, such as -

(FOOTNOTE 1) So in original. Probably should be ''marihuana,''.

(1) metal, wooden, acrylic, glass, stone, plastic, or ceramic pipes with or without screens, permanent screens, hashish heads, or punctured metal bowls;

(2) water pipes;

(3) carburetion tubes and devices;

(4) smoking and carburetion masks;

(5) roach clips: meaning objects used to hold burning material, such as a marihuana cigarette, that has become too small or too short to be held in the hand;

(6) miniature spoons with level capacities of one-tenth cubic centimeter or less;

(7) chamber pipes;

(8) carburetor pipes;

(9) electric pipes;

(10) air-driven pipes;

(11) chillums;

(12) bongs;

(13) ice pipes or chillers;

(14) wired cigarette papers; or

(15) cocaine freebase kits.

(e) Matters considered in determination of what constitutes drug paraphernalia
In determining whether an item constitutes drug paraphernalia, in addition to all other logically relevant factors, the following may be considered:

(1) instructions, oral or written, provided with the item concerning its use;

(2) descriptive materials accompanying the item which explain or depict its use;

(3) national and local advertising concerning its use;

(4) the manner in which the item is displayed for sale;

(5) whether the owner, or anyone in control of the item, is a legitimate supplier of like or related items to the community, such as a licensed distributor or dealer of tobacco products;

(6) direct or circumstantial evidence of the ratio of sales of the item(s) to the total sales of the business enterprise;

(7) the existence and scope of legitimate uses of the item in the community; and

(8) expert testimony concerning its use.
(http://www.justice.gov/dea/pubs/csa/863.htm#a)

Will it pass this criteria?

[CripSkillz]

I guess it will if it has , instruction sheet with each piece???

[byron3]

Damn and I was betting you would be giving expert testimony................

[3ripmin]

im not going back through this thread but i thought that you said that if a store down the street is selling cheap imported glass then you will too. you sure made it sound like you sold imports.

[3ripmin]

Once again you need to go back and read this thread in it's entirety, Please quote me where I said I currently buy imported glass. Do not make accusations that you can not prove, be like me asking you why you like to eat s*@t.......... I think you get the point here!!!!!!


this lead me to believe that you buy imports.


With that being said I have to compete with my local market, after all I am not selling but out of one store front here in Savannah. Now if everybody in Savannah sells USA blown glass then that is all I am selling. But if Joe Smoe stocks his place up with cheap import glass, then I have no choice but to do the same.


but whatever. the whole point is that you would rather buy from sweat shop type shops then from single glass blowers because it makes you more money and that makes you a douche!

i could buy everything i need from walmart but i would feel like a douche.

[byron3]

Had you followed the thread you would have seen where I stated most of the pordo I sell now I make, the example I gave was a what if scenario.......... Of course you are so adamant that you are going to malign me that you are unwilling to even re read this thread to know the truth. Why bother to get the facts when it is so much easier to tell lies to further your point.........

Oh and if I was not clear about it let me make it clear -> Grow the F*$k up

[nicko0]

we are discussing imported untaxed products; that is the legal issue we are discussing and what makes the imports unfairly competitive.

i felt your tone suggested you wish me to be "happy" with the situation, maybe that was a poor choice of words. you wish me to not be an angry whiny person about it;(not much better choice) im angry about it and i want to do something about it. discussing it here is one way and i dont feel many in this thread have come across as whiny.

you call me a snitch and simpleton. i give respect to the forum by not stooping so low as to childishly name call.

to be clear:

i make no allusion to reporting on others activities.

i neither make paraphernalia nor make any reference to to the subject other than this sentence.

actually, i want an apology for your libel, byron3

then maybe we can start figuring out how to address this issue with some of the things you mentioned as being "cut-throat"like biting style and wholesale raw materials. maybe how to import legally and from what countries.

[nodice]

we are discussing imported untaxed products; that is the legal issue we are discussing and what makes the imports unfairly competitive.......

You act like someone here is a lawyer and knows what is legal/illegal, or that someone even knows if certain products are taxed or not. It's kinda funny when people who look at is at art finally realize it's a business. Course maybe that's better then always seeing glory in making stuff out of glass.

[byron3]

we are discussing imported untaxed products; that is the legal issue we are discussing and what makes the imports unfairly competitive.


What the fuck is up with all thus massive production of glass these days!? I go on Ebay and theres a million beads that aren't handmade and a million pendants that aren't handmade.

So pendants and beads are "untaxed products"...............


you call me a snitch and simpleton.........

Quote those statements for me please...... I may have insinuated that you were both, but I do not think I ever actually "called" you either.


i want an apology for your libel...........

Please start your legal proceedings, perhaps a conference with your lawyer will be quite revealing. There was no malice involved in our discussion and you can not prove any thing discussed had a adverse monetary bearing on you. But like the rest of this thread you are good at smack talking. No valid points here but plenty of thrash talk.........

[CripSkillz]

will you fags go blo some glass,, or each other and just get it over with ,, the sexual tension must be killing you all.

[3ripmin]

you said this, byron.

With that being said I have to compete with my local market, after all I am not selling but out of one store front here in Savannah. Now if everybody in Savannah sells USA blown glass then that is all I am selling. But if Joe Smoe stocks his place up with cheap import glass, then I have no choice but to do the same.

[NUBBLET]

Lets see, you really want to go there..... this thread doesn't stink enough already.

Once again my path in life is to provide for me and my family, I have to look out for #1......... I really do not think any of you have my best interest in mind. Even though I can feel the love every time I read replies I doubt any of you would loan me a $0.10 for a pack of life savers if I were drowning.

With that being said I have to compete with my local market, after all I am not selling but out of one store front here in Savannah. Now if everybody in Savannah sells USA blown glass then that is all I am selling. But if Joe Smoe stocks his place up with cheap import glass, then I have no choice but to do the same. Now you can grumble, bitch, moan and groan about this but if you can not show me a way to compete with Joe Smoe I have no choice but to play in his sand box. Customers do not give a shit where that glass was made, you can tell whatever lies you want on this subject but the bottom line price is what custy's look at. When they tell you they can go to Joe Smoe and get it cheaper then you "belly up to the bar"........... If I have to sell import glass to ensure the well being of me and my family then that is what I will do, no matter what you think / say about me. After all you are only a figment of my imagination that I converse with form time to time. If your opinions adversely effect me then I will find other venues to converse and share with others and I will join the scores of other blowers who have tired with this forum and no longer visit.

theres your quote , if you can comprehend what YOU wrote .

[Mecha]

Posted by james in this thread (http://www.talkglass.com/forum/showpost.php?p=413241&postcount=12).....

[NUBBLET]

edit , for some reason it cut this out :
I know your simpleton thought process did not allow you to think that line of thought out fully , right??

this was there originally

Your self righteousness makes me laugh and defines the rudimentary simpleness of your thinking. The only thing lower in my book than a Chinese Glass importer is a snitch, you have really defined yourself to me...




sucks tryin to back slide on typing huh ?

[Mecha]

"rudimentary simpleness".....


priceless.....


You are too much james!

[CripSkillz]

whats the pic of chinese and lo quality glass all about, is that a china import shop ??

[Adapt]

this thread is poop

[seadal]

Byron=JoeSchmoe

[NUBBLET]

whats the pic of chinese and lo quality glass all about, is that a china import shop ??
crip , click the link , that is a pic posted by Byron3 of his shop , apparently he got his start drilling holes into those "vases" , but couldnt handle giving some local glass worker or a distributor a buck for mouthpieces so he took the torch up , so he could show his love for the art . HIGH FIVE ..!.,

[nodice]

Good job using the word art to make yourself feel like you're better then someone, very creative. Imo there's nothing wrong with a store owner learning to make stuff out of glass so he can make a little more money, or a store buying only chinese glass. Griping about how other people make their money while saying you should make more money just sounds like sour apples.

[CripSkillz]

You know what nodice I am just tired of reading your shit ,, you never have any fun.. stick in the mud you are.. ;)

[NUBBLET]

Griping about how other people make their money while saying you should make more money just sounds like sour apples.

kinda like , griping about mouth pieces being a buck , so I buy the equipment and make them myself ?
The word art is used to show , it was not about the glass or anything but a buck .
I have been into glass since I was 5-6 , even fair rides could not compete , even at that age it was an ART . I will use the word whenever I desire for whatever reason I desire (.) .



you read this like it says the worker deserves ALL the cash , when it simply says spread the love and wealth .

[CitizenNot]

Solve all your import and prodo problems, adopt slave labour from (insert country)Bam instint profit and someone to clean the toilets!

[rocco lozito]

Hello boys are rocco an Italian Chinese problem here was the only solution and defend with quality

[3ripmin]

kinda like , griping about mouth pieces being a buck , so I buy the equipment and make them myself ?
The word art is used to show , it was not about the glass or anything but a buck .
I have been into glass since I was 5-6 , even fair rides could not compete , even at that age it was an ART . I will use the word whenever I desire for whatever reason I desire (.) .



you read this like it says the worker deserves ALL the cash , when it simply says spread the love and wealth .

yes, this.

[byron3]

kinda like , griping about mouth pieces being a buck , so I buy the equipment and make them myself ?

So you do nothing but blow glass, if the roof needs fixing you call a roofer? The car breaks down you call a mechanic? The toilet backs up you call a plumber? You need an electrical outlet you call an electrician? You want Bar-B-Que you go to the local joint? How little can a person think of themselves if they are unwilling to branch out in life to save themselves a little money? Do they tell themselves that they are incapable of doing task that other mere mortals can do? Or are they just simply lazy? I know some of you slinging mud are bleeding heart liberals who think the government should take care or everybody. Sorry folks but I hold my head high and I make no apologies for being both skilled and intelligent enough to learn new skills. Some of you need to look at reality, you either need to develop skill sets besides glass blowing or you better be damn good so that you are capable of paying others to do what you can't / won't.


The word art is used to show , it was not about the glass or anything but a buck .



n.

1. Human effort to imitate, supplement, alter, or counteract the work of nature.
2.
1. The conscious production or arrangement of sounds, colors, forms, movements, or other elements in a manner that affects the sense of beauty, specifically the production of the beautiful in a graphic or plastic medium.
2. The study of these activities.
3. The product of these activities; human works of beauty considered as a group.
3. High quality of conception or execution, as found in works of beauty; aesthetic value.
4. A field or category of art, such as music, ballet, or literature.
5. A nonscientific branch of learning; one of the liberal arts.
6.
1. A system of principles and methods employed in the performance of a set of activities: the art of building.
2. A trade or craft that applies such a system of principles and methods: the art of the lexicographer.
7.
1. Skill that is attained by study, practice, or observation: the art of the baker; the blacksmith's art.
2. Skill arising from the exercise of intuitive faculties: "Self-criticism is an art not many are qualified to practice" (Joyce Carol Oates).
8.
1. arts Artful devices, stratagems, and tricks.
2. Artful contrivance; cunning.
9. Printing. Illustrative material. (http://www.answers.com/topic/art)

Now it is quite clear most of you have already showed you have no idea the above is the definition of ART......... Please make sure to note #7...... Here I want there to be no misconceptions:


7.
1. Skill that is attained by study, practice, or observation: the art of the baker; the blacksmith's art.

Wait for it : So you mean my observation, study and practice with my glass blowing does not qualify as art??? Or maybe it does not meet your definition of art, but all of you writing this crap are rouge scholars who's work has trumped the site where I got the above, RIGHT?? While you are at it could you please quote where it makes any type of allusion to a trade, craft, or skill as not being art simply because the end results bring in money??? I asked once before and no one answered the question, "You give your work away?"

Oh and I am sure some moron will allude to the fact I have no passion, that it is simply for the money. First show me any where in that definition or any other URL definition where passion is even vaguely referenced!!!!! Even if you could find it let me help bust that myth also. I mix my glass products in with purchased products, I do not make suggestions to the customers on what pieces to purchase so as not to bias them. Every time a custy chooses a piece I created over purchased products I get this warm fuzzy feeling all over, it just ignites a fire inside of me, you see I have a pride that my product is chosen when compared to "professional" glass. This pride drives me to strive for higher quality and more eye appeal in the next batch of product I make. Now that sounds like passion to me.........
But wait you would be grudge me the enjoyment of learning more techniques why? Because I make money off of it, I have a win / win situation here -> I make money and I enjoy what I do, who do any of you think you are to advocate this as wrong?




n.

1. A powerful emotion, such as love, joy, hatred, or anger.
2.
1. Ardent love.
2. Strong sexual desire; lust.
3. The object of such love or desire.
3.
1. Boundless enthusiasm: His skills as a player don't quite match his passion for the game.
2. The object of such enthusiasm: Soccer is her passion.
4. An abandoned display of emotion, especially of anger: He's been known to fly into a passion without warning.
5. Passion
1. The sufferings of Jesus in the period following the Last Supper and including the Crucifixion, as related in the New Testament.
2. A narrative, musical setting, or pictorial representation of Jesus's sufferings.
6. Archaic. Martyrdom.
7. Archaic. Passivity. (http://www.answers.com/topic/passion)

So now we can take those two arguments off of the table, kind of like sliding down a rope, you are getting close to a fall. So who has the next cheap shot or lame argument?

[Din]

Rouge scholars? What does it matter what color they are?

[nodice]

kinda like , griping about mouth pieces being a buck , so I buy the equipment and make them myself ?
The word art is used to show , it was not about the glass or anything but a buck .
I have been into glass since I was 5-6 , even fair rides could not compete , even at that age it was an ART . I will use the word whenever I desire for whatever reason I desire (.) .



you read this like it says the worker deserves ALL the cash , when it simply says spread the love and wealth .

You're saying there's something wrong with making mouthpieces, or with people that do it?

If the worker deserves all the cash, then you need to stop paying your landlord, the gas guy, your insurance guy, the guys you get your glass from, the people who ship the glass, and shops that you like who buy your stuff. A store that doesn't buy your stuff is different though, since they don't pay your bills like shops that praise you, or people that make you feel good about your art. Oops, I used the word art too.....

[Mecha]

...

.....Oh and I am sure some moron will allude to the fact I have no passion, that it is simply for the money. First show me any where in that definition or any other URL definition where passion is even vaguely referenced!!!!! Even if you could find it let me help bust that myth also.......

Wait, did you just have an argument with a point that you completely fabricated? Really?

Intense.

[byron3]

Wait, did you just have an argument with a point that you completely fabricated? Really?

Intense.


And no, I would not teach an apprentice how to duplicate my work. If that is all they desired from their glass education, I would not want to take them on in the first place. Look around. Most of the newbies on this forum have a passion to create. They are not here to fulfill some money making scheme.


Intense....... why yes it was, now I need a cigarette...............

[Mecha]

That post was in this thread?

So you were having an argument with a post from a different thread from over a month ago?

Saying that you lack the passion to create or that you lack creativity is not synonymous with saying that you have no passion at all. I would imagine a man of your intellectual caliber can delineate between those two points. You see, there is still the possibility that you have the passion to make money by finding the most cost effective way to generate profit. There are also countless other ways in which you could express passion.


Your near hysterical meltdowns are funny james .....

[kage]

Sorry folks but I hold my head high and I make no apologies for being both skilled and intelligent enough to learn new skills.

hilarious, especially the the part where you claim to be intelligent



Some of you need to look at reality, you either need to develop skill sets besides glass blowing or you better be damn good so that you are capable of paying others to do what you can't / won't.


i am damn good. i dont need to pay anyone to "knock off" my style.
nor do i pass up on a "job"/money. i'll make anything, and i'll make it damn good and fast enough to be worth my time.



Now it is quite clear most of you have already showed you have no idea the above is the definition of ART

i have a BFA.....you? (quick go search wikipedia)


So you mean my observation, study and practice with my glass blowing does not qualify as art???

no, not even close



While you are at it could you please quote where it makes any type of allusion to a trade, craft, or skill as not being art simply because the end results bring in money???

when you show me where it states that making something soley for profit is considered art


Every time a custy chooses a piece I created over purchased products I get this warm fuzzy feeling all over

thats just the BBQ


Now that sounds like passion to me

no its just gas


But wait you would be grudge me the enjoyment of learning more techniques why?

because you really should master basic techniques first. or at least do them well.


I make money off of it, I have a win / win situation here -> I make money and I enjoy what I do, who do any of you think you are to advocate this as wrong?

that is the only thing practical you've said thus far



So who has the next cheap shot or lame argument?

thats all for now

[bifwitsis209]

i put poop on bathroom walls i call it art .....they call it shit....where do they get off callin my art shit......like i said its poop......

[NUBBLET]

insane , but I will choose not to be , you gentlemen have fun .

[Zed]

IMO the glass pipe market hit a high water mark around 2000 and has been in steady decline since then. For a variety of reasons its gets harder to pull a profit every year, mostly due to the fact that supply now far exceeds demand. If you think that you have a lifelong career ahead of you making pipes your probably going to be disappointed.

All the crying in the world about imports isn't going to stop them. If you convince 1 headshop owner to not carry imports it just leaves a hole in the market that someone else will eventually fill. This is America, and we operate on a (mostly) free market economy. If there is money to be made, someone will step up to make it. Excessive bitching about this fact just makes you look bad.

The glory days of the 90's / early 00's market for pipes is over, and won't ever be coming back. If your only interest in glass is making pipes, then you should seriously consider a more long term career strategy.

Finding a place that is geographically isolated and doesn't see much work outside of locally produced stuff is a good alternative for now as well. Imports are more prevalent in big cities then in the boonies, so maybe you can work this too your advantage.

Bottom line with no sugar coating, I see the glass pipe market as imploding as it has been for a while. Unless your one of the glass rockstars, your probably going to be hurt by this. Diversify, find niche markets, make products other then pipes. There is no long term future in pipe making and the whole import and price bottoming is only going to get worse. This is what happens in a free market economy when too many people make the same sorts of products and try to sell them to the same market.

Life's a bitch.