New Tube Scoring Tool

[KT-Old School Glass]

I finally have these ready to roll.

They can score tubing and rod 6mm-50mm with no problems

http://www.generationsglass.com/Cutting_And_Scoring.html

http://www.generationsglass.com/media/TubeScorer.jpg

[ALIEN!]

they look sturdy. Are they on a channel for adjustability? Are spare cutting wheels available and how much?

[KT-Old School Glass]

Not on a channel but can be adjusted to second setting to go larger than 50mm tubing.

Wheels will be available but not sure of the price yet.

[Abe Fleishman]

Sick tool brotha I want one for sure.
Tron

[kage]

looks sweet. gonna grab one before the tool gnomes strike.

so on the second setting...how big of tube are we talking?

[stackerson]

wow....those look real similar to the jaws. im with kage gonna have to grab one before the aliens scoop all em up!! lol

[fizzy]

Will purchase one soon. My room mate has one for now, but eventually I will want my own. Thanks for the heads up. I bought some tools from you last week and was looking for that very one.

[mindblowingglass]

Thats way shady. Mike from wisco invented that tool and spent a LOT OF TIME IN R&D and LOTS of MONEY working out the kinks. if that didnt come from him or his partner , thats as shady as Pat Franz. Stealing other peoples inventions is about as low as you can get.(even if it isnt patented) Kristen I have never once known you to be shady, but if its you thats knocking them off, then I stand by my statement. If its not you, than I appologise and suggest you stop selling them and buy them from the true owner of the tool and its design. (not to mention that the tool mike made cuts tube from 40mm-80+mm)

[ALIEN!]

Thats way shady. Mike from wisco invented that tool and spent a LOT OF TIME IN R&D and LOTS of MONEY working out the kinks. if that didnt come from him or his partner , thats as shady as Pat Franz. Stealing other peoples inventions is about as low as you can get.(even if it isnt patented) Kristen I have never once known you to be shady, but if its you thats knocking them off, then I stand by my statement. If its not you, than I appologise and suggest you stop selling them and buy them from the true owner of the tool and its design. (not to mention that the tool mike made cuts tube from 40mm-80+mm)

Got a way to get ahold of Mike? I didn't know he was from Wisconsin. I'd love to get one of his originals from him.

[Deez]

Im pretty sure mike sold the design and quit making them. At least thats what i read on the forum. cool down ya temper now.

[jr23]

Wow looks like most distro's are making them now its just keeping trac of which blades for which cutters.

I wish they all disc blade from a large tile scorer that way you could just go to home depot and get replacements. But the arbor hole in mine are smaller and so I have to go with trevs to get that size.

all the blades I have sourced at the chain stores have a bigger hole.

well I could make a brass shim in about two seconds but thats not the point.

I like the new jaws design on the large cutters, these in the pic are like the old ones mike had for a while.


I am not going to say how the new ones look but they deff go way bigger and smaller than the old jaws large.

Peace out and I hope no one looses sleep over this thread. LOL

[kage]

Thats way shady. Mike from wisco invented that tool and spent a LOT OF TIME IN R&D and LOTS of MONEY working out the kinks. if that didnt come from him or his partner , thats as shady as Pat Franz. Stealing other peoples inventions is about as low as you can get.(even if it isnt patented) Kristen I have never once known you to be shady, but if its you thats knocking them off, then I stand by my statement. If its not you, than I appologise and suggest you stop selling them and buy them from the true owner of the tool and its design. (not to mention that the tool mike made cuts tube from 40mm-80+mm)

well many of us have tried unsuccessfully to get this tool from mike. i've been looking for one of these for too long and all of the dist have been out for a long time. from what i understand as well, he sold the design and this is it. if i am wrong, then my apologies.
chillax brother, this is a good thing.

[CripSkillz]

look whos callin shady shady,, shady

[Michael]

I callin it shady-

[kage]

I callin it shady-

then perhaps you'd like to elaborate. or maybe return PM's, update your thread, or resupply the distributers who have carried your tool. i'm really not trying to be a dick here, i'm curious.

if none of that is possible then explain, i for one am very understanding. when questions are left un answered, then i have to figure things out for myself.
i was plain tired of trying to find a large jaws, so now i don't have to look anymore. i think this tool could change my life, and i'm not going to abandon the idea of having it in my studio bc the original is nowhere to be found.

btw, how many versions of claw holders are there? tool ideas are redesigned all the time. seriously not trying to start anything here, but thats just my .02.

[RamblezMarblez]

The first time I saw this tool G.G. was selling them at GAS in Corning NY. Looked real solid and would give a nice even score. Then the dude hooked me up with 7 or 8 sample sticks of NS for FREE!!! Wasn't the rest made of graphite too? That pic looks like steel or something. If Mike has a patent, don't you get somekind of royalties?

[mindblowingglass]

Brandon of victory machine (aka collin on here) bought the rights to produce the tool. ( if you own a lathe or get a lathe in the future there's a 95% chance thats where it came from)
If you want to steal a product from a big faceless corp thats one thing. But I know how much time and money Mike put into that tool. For months he kept changing and inproving the design. then for fellow members to steal his design, THAT IS SHADY! Mikes not rich, he even priced it low to help everyone out (as most of us aren't rich) I helped push him with the international patent application to protect him from faceless, heartless corps not board members.(boy was I wrong)
Between the 2 of us we have quite a few other revolutionary tool ideas that will greatly help the lampworking community. But after this, We're both having second thoughts about making any more than for ourselves! And if we do we wont release them till the patents are approved and done. But after all this I'm thinking we'll just make them for ourselves and let the rest of the lampworking world miss out. (which sucks, because Im sure other members are going to have the same thought and the all lampworkers will miss out on a lot of great tools. Which if anyone who reads this has a great tool idea please look at this before releasing it or even producing it. Because I wouldn't want anyone else on here getting screwed this way)

If someone had done this with the vin-pin most in this forum would raise hell and not buy the knock off's. But because Mike works too much and doesnt have the time to post daily, no one seems to care. We'll I care and I hope some of you others with integratey care as well !

As far as me chilling out, anyone of you would be just as upset if someone stole one of your best freinds tool design, as well to the fact that Im the first one to even raise a stink about it. Like I said you want to steal a tool design from a faceless corp than thats one thing, but I thought of this forum members like family, we don't screw each other if you want to screw the rest of the world so be it, but to screw another forum member thats not just shady but bad karma to boot. This wasn't a tool that was thought up and perfected in a month or 2 there were many many months of working out the kinks not to mention the money he lost on all the ones that weren't right.
If brandon didn't buy the rights to produce it, he would have still been in the red $ wise but he didn't want to rape everyone so he kept the price low to help every member out. I stressed him to do the international patent, But when I was stressing the patent it was with the idea to protect him from those faceless heartless corporations, neither one of us thought it would be to protect him from fellow members, fellow "family members"


Alien - Michael is mike - the original designer

[KT-Old School Glass]

I will gladly explain my actions later today.

[KT-Old School Glass]

It has come to my attention that some people think I am being shady in regards to the new tube scoring tool that I am offering. I would like to address this now and let everyone know and understand.

First I want to say this, I have happily dealt with Michael (the creator of the JAWS scoring tool) and would love to continue to do so. I have a lot of respect for Michael and did not wish to offend him in any way.

The reason that I have started offering this new tool is that I have tried for several months to get more of the JAWS tools without success. I tried to place an order for these in August of '09 and never received it. I tried to contact Michael through PMs and Email several times and did not get any response.

I had heard that the design had been sold and that they would be available again soon in November. I waited months again.

This entire time I have had customers calling and emailing me to try to get the JAWS. I had to keep telling them that I was out of stock and hope to get more information soon. Unfortunately, I did not get any information.

About a month ago I felt that after 7 months after my original order and 5 months after hearing of the sale of the design that I needed to take care of my customers.

I have a local tool maker that I have been working with for a short while and asked if he could make his own version of these. He gladly took on this task and made what he has dubbed the Guillotine scoring tool.

This tool maker also makes a version of the Glass on Glass holding tool that I carry and will soon be making other tools for me as well. He is a stickler for detail and I feel that he will be making great tools for some time to come.

As I said, I did not mean any disrespect and did not want to step on any toes. After this length of time I was thinking that the original tool had been abandoned and wanted to make sure that my customers were going to be taken care of.

Michael, If I have offended you in any way, I apologize. Please call me so that we can discuss this.

[sunray]

I too have been trying to reorder for months,, no answer to the # he gave me and no answering machine. so I assumed he wasn't doing them anymore and no one else had come forward as the producer with the product.. so I understand.
Had to go find me a company to get the wheels from so I could continue to use my tools.

[MUPH]

Nothing "shady" here as far as I can tell, just sounds like business to me. Kristian is looking after his customers

[newmexicomagma]

Tools are tools. Even a international patent wouldn't stop someone overseas making them. This is how most buisness goes. Someone makes a great product, can't supply the demand, then someone creates their own, hence competition. I think the original will always be respected and probably better due to r and d. I really hope you do share ur future tools and don't let this get to you. It reminded me of snodgrass talking about whether he should keep fuming to himself or share. You'll go down in history if u share.

[Dom]

Yea plus its not like he reinvented the wheel. The Jaws tools are just badass disc nips that can open really wide. Great tool and great design but really nothing too new.

[SNYD]

I don't know anything about these tools, but to come on here and call KT shady after not communicating with him for 7 months? Thats Shady to me.

[mindblowingglass]

Many years ago I waited 8 months for a phantom, 10+ months for a mirage and the same for the delta. Back then I had the funds to send the mirage to china and knock it off(when I had lots of money and was distributing equipment and supplies. ) But that would of been shady, bad karma and a sever lack of good integrety. But according to most on this post it would have been ok because "i was looking out for my clients" ???
Kris and pat I hope you talk with mike and make things right. Kris I have always had mad respect for you, except when it comes to this. And if you really beleaved he "abandoned" the tool than my appologies for calling you shady.
But if you knew mike you would know his real job has him traveling all over the country workn 12hr days many times he had very little to no internet access. (and after working 12 hrs doing construction he didnt have it in him to get online if he had access, as most of us wouldnt be able too) As far as Pat, you were never given rights to sell the tool or given the chance to because I requested him to not do so, after you selling me that busted knight torch years ago, that was sold to me as "LIKE NEW" And your unwillingness to make it right.

As far as the og jaws each pair was hand crafted and made to be perfect by mike. Marcel liked them so much he bought brandons used pair when he was out at brandons shop. (because he didnt want to wait) Mike could have charged 2x's what he was selling them for and they still would have been completely worth it, but he wanted to make it so everyone could afford them, even though at points he was broke or not well off. And for the record there was one long point where there was none being made because the company that was selling the cutting wheels could not get any more, and mike didnt want to put subpar wheels on this tool.


Like w&w Mike has a real job, blows glass and was making tools when time allowed. He wouldnt sell a pair of "jaws" unless they were perfect, because thats the kind of guy he is, he kept the price low to allow everyone to afford them, again because thats the kind of guy he is. If brandon wouldnt have bought the rights to make them, mike would of LOST money by helping everyone out with the "Jaws". LOST MONEY BY HELPING EVERYONE AFFORD A SET OF THIS TOOL!

As far as this tool being like disk nippers DREAM ON, I have never been able to cut 80mm tube (or even 44mm for that matter) with disk nippers. The 2 are not at all the same.

[Greymatter Glass]

mindblowingglass, your willingness to defend your friend is great and all....I agree with most of what you've said and certainly with the sentiment...

But that said it's just too little too late.

I've had at least a dozen of my customers ask when the JAWS would get in, and all I could tell them was I wasn't able to get ahold of Mike, no one returned calls, PMs or offered any communication. I've had people offer me $150 for the large jaws.

Altruism is cool and all, but Mike should have been making more money off these. Sorry, but good tools cost money. They're an investment in your trade. Maybe if he'd made enough money off them to make it worth his while to produce them he wouldn't have been in such dire financial straights?

What's better: making tools at an unsustainable loss resulting in the cessation of production after a very limited run.

or:

Making tools at a sustainable profit allowing them to develop, improve, and offer a supply to match demand.

???

he could have easily sold them for double what he was, people would still buy them. now that cheaper alternatives and "knock offs" are available it's too little too late.


As for what GTT did, that's a good example, but you missed a few things:

1. They _DO_ have a patent. It's a huge investment, but it's worked for them.

2. Aside from legal reasons, you couldn't send a mirage off to China and have it copied. You think it hasn't been tried? China can make things cheaper, but you still get what you pay for, the quality wouldn't be there. If you paid a Chinese company to provide the same quality W&W offer the torches would cost as much or more after freight... complex tools and assemblage are things China's just not as competitive in. They produce, just not _AS_ cheap as simple commodity goods, basic tools, etc.

3. Granted, GTT's used to be more difficult to obtain, but they have never promised something then not answered calls and emails for 6-7 months. They've always kept open lines of communication, even if it could take a while.

4. As far as I know, W&W do have full time jobs: making and selling GTT torches, it's not just something they do on the weekend.

5. GTT is a for profit company. They started with and continue to follow a business plan that includes making money on what they sell. It's a long money game maybe, I personally don't know their finances, btu I seriously doubt they loose money on tools. They love the industry, they help as many people as they can, and in order to make sure they're around to help people, service their products, and provide the best torches to the industry they have to make a profit.


As for JAWS being a disc-nipper on steroids... it's only partly accurate. They share a common part, the carbide wheel, and in the right hands a pair of disc nippers _CAN_ score very large tubing.... but it's very difficult without a lathe. I would suggest JAWS are a Humboldt/Griffin tube cutter on steroids. It's a modified design, not an entirely new concept.


And seriously, tell Mike I'll buy some if he makes them. The original still has value! If Brandon would make them the same way and the same quality I would buy them from him, I don't really care who makes them (Mike or Brandon) as long as the name and quality are the same. (no diamond point BS... I want carbide wheels)


-Doug

[kage]

^ took the words outta my mouth.

when i waited for my torch, at least i knew the status...thats all i'm saying about that.

now back to the guillitine tool, i just got mine in yesterday. works great.

thanks Kristian and i commend you on your patience. if being kept in the dark, 7 months is longer than i would wait.

[mindblowingglass]

greymatter - I concur with the price thing, I tried to talk him into doing the larger jaws for $100 and something, but he wanted everyone to have one since they really did revolutionize cutting large tubes. And he wasnt thinking like a buisness man, he was thinking with his heart and for his fellow glass blowers. And you can rest assured if we release any other of our tool designs (or he or I idependently or together) we will price them high enough that we can be assured we wont be in the red for releasing them. But as I work a 9-5 and he works up to 12 hr days w/ his real job we both blow glass and when time allows we tinker with making prototype tools,equipment and torches or spend time perfecting them or brainstorming. (as well I have 2 young daughters that i have half the time and mike has a wife that get neglected as is) I imagen with many of the tools were working on or have yet to start working on) we will just make for ourselves, or each other and not concern ourselves with everyone else)

As far as replacing them with wheels off ebay or elsewhere, thats what caused a major delay was that the wheels he was using where the best, highest quality wheel avaliable. And out of no where his supplier ran out and he didnt feel right using subpar parts on his too

As far as china not being able to reproduce a gtt, dont kid yourself. I have personaly seen a china made delta and the only difffernce was there was no powder coating. We ran a real delta next to the knock off and the flames were identical. And it only cost him $500 plus shipping and 2 months with out his delta. I have yet to see anyone importing them, and he's kept the mnf underwraps but they can and have. (he didnt tell them it was a glass torch he gave some bs excuse like it was used for casting or spectromity(sp?) but I know he didnt let them know it was a glass torch because he thought theyd flood the market and he would loose his exclusive connect. (even though to my knowledge he has never sold one to anyone) And also dont forget that in the begining there was much delay of gtt torches because they were still doing their koi pond business.
I cant speak on mikes behalf regarding not returning everyones calls or emails. But years ago I ordered 10 pairs of a variety of jacks from a german company (because the italian glass blowers I met in venice/murrano said they were the best jacks avaliable) for 6-7 months I got no call backs or emails or anything. But one day they called me up out of the blue saying they were ready and made payment and shipping arrangements. Where as with w&w I called every month (sometimes twice a month) and every time it was "soon" or "next month" for 8 months and 10+ months twice. And honestly it was less stressful not hearing from the german company and them being done out of the blue, than being told "next mont", "next month" etc. When you want quality many times you have wait and still pay a premium (as these german jacks were 3-4 times what jim moore jacks cost) But again it was a lot less stressful not hearing from the german company knowing I was inine, than being put off month after month. But maybe thats just me

[KT-Old School Glass]

Kris I have always had mad respect for you, except when it comes to this. And if you really beleaved he "abandoned" the tool than my appologies for calling you shady.


I truly did believe that the JAWS had been abandoned.

I'm still waiting to hear from Mike to talk about this. Still no calls, emails, etc.