flame spray

[Brian Newman]

I am currently trying to convince Peter(Nortel) to help me design a flame spray torch. Encasement made easy. How interested are people in a torch that sprays glass in the flame? The first draft of the torch is the S.S.Q. with the pre-mix removed, and an oxygen/glass frit feed in the center.

[slinger]

that sounds so bizzare, i cant imagine what you are talkin about. maybe im confused.

[vetropod]

That sounds like it could get real interesting if you don't keep your torch clamped down :eek







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[onion]

dude thats rediculously awesome!

[Mr. Smiley]

Is it similar to the metal ones, where the hopper is on top? Have you tested this at all? This could be sick! I'm definitely interested! :D

[Brian Newman]

I saw this tube at Pegasus a couple of years ago about four or five feet in diameter, a couple of inches thick, with tapered flanges at both ends about four inches thick, and it was built with flame spray. I also have an article on this process from the 1968 A.S.G.S. symposium. I think a scaled-down version would have potential.

[Brian Newman]

Is it similar to the metal ones, where the hopper is on top? Have you tested this at all? This could be sick! I'm definitely interested! :D
Just in the planning stages.

[Julian]

That has to be the weirdest idea I've heard in a long time.
Sounds like a dangerous weapon.
Also, like you could make some cool textures!

[sjwelna]

Respirator mandatory! :sick: :confetti:

Sounds like a pretty cool idea though.

-Steve

[Glass Evolution]

you should show us a picture. it sound like fun. have you tested your proto??? I would probably be interested with if you gave me more info..

[Brian Newman]

I have talked to Peter, and have sparked his interest. No prototype yet. All previous designs I have seen had the flame aimed straight down, and I could see problems with bits of glass sticking to the face of the torch if it were aimed sideways like the metal spray torches. Another problem is if you have a fine enough particle size to soften to working temp while passing through the flame, it is prone to instant overworking due to the high persentage of surface area, and others use specialy formulated glass for the powder.

[smutboy420]

Thats weird cause i have been thinking about this for a week or so now.
You could use a doping torch. thats how they apply the coating on fiber optic blanks.
Its called "Outside vapor-phase deposition" it uses a torch that runs o2 and SiCl4(SILICON TETRACHLORIDE) as the fule. When it burns it leaves a glass soot deposited on the glass preform to encase it.b asicly. No glass hoper needed.
here is a paper on the process.
http://zone.ni.com/devzone/conceptd.nsf/webmain/F196D78E6BFCD91686256C3D008129EB#2

[SteppingRazor]

if you make that work, you would deserve a nobel prize. so like if you put color frit in the hopper could you make it work like an airbrush?
~joe

[JDeMoss]

This sounds like dangerous fun....the kind of thing rednecks should never get there hands on.....

"Hey hold my beer and watch this!!!"

"WooooooHooooo Your doin it Billy!!!!"

followed by something very terrible that would soon be posted somewhere here.

[Mr. Smiley]

I am so down with firing something like this up! This sounds like a lot of fun! I actually had visions of fine frit, a beer can hopper and my Mirage... duct tape is the most important part of this build. I'll post pics tomorrow.













Yeah right. :lol

[Mr. Wonka]

Any new product in the industry is a bonus… but without hearing any details, it sounds like it would be somewhat inefficient (not to mention dangerous). When you roll a tube in frit, only a portion of it sticks to the tube, with the rest falling back into the tray.

The spray seems like it would produce a lot of waste if the tube wasn’t completely molten (to the point where it’s uncontrollable). Considering how “frugal” some people are, I don’t see it being too marketable to the average lampworker.

IMHO, frit makes enough of a mess even when it’s confined to a tray. I wouldn’t want the stuff shooting out at a high pressure all over the place, not to mention how much of it will bounce back at you while you’re working. It sounds like this sort of device would be more suited for an automated production line where each color could be confined to a specific (enclosed) area, collected, and recycled into the hopper.

[misticglass]

what about a small torch that holds a rod or stringer somhow that you can hold like a pencil and draw with so the torch is always aiming on the rod and somehow the rod or stringger gets fed down. that would be hot...

[IrieGuy05]

Yeah you could sell it in infomercials and market it towrds bead making ladies and stuff... $19.95 yall

[Mr. Smiley]

Tom, I believe this will liquify the glass in mid air. The piece wouldn't have to be molten for the glass to stick. It would be like a reveerse frit pick up. The frit isn't molten, but it sticks to the molten piece. Think of the opposite and being able to build it up on the surface... Any frit or power that doesn't hit the piece, would cool and fall by the wayside with enough room. It may be able to be reprocessed... maybe not. The metal ones are cool. I'd really like to see this in action, but I'm not risking my Mirage... maybe my Carlisle hand torch. We'll see what happens, when I have time to rig something up. I'm not looking to steal the idea, just experiment with it's viability. :)

[Udai Hussien]

What about instead of frit, in the hopper (for lack of a better word) it used a UST GLASS fine powder? Like a powder coat on a car? but when heated it turns into a stage two liquid mist?, then polects on the bottom, for people to recyle leftovers?

[mindblowingglass]

The PSI required to project frit would be too high to allow the frit to even heat up let alone become molten. The only way it would be applicable would be in a seal automated unit.
Even then it wouldn't be practical, as it would make just as much sense to project it out of a sand blasting gun as the only way it would stick is if the glass tube (your appling it to)was ragen hot.

For all U doubters take some frit and dump it in front of your torch while its blasting.
How much becomes molten before hitting the table? And thats not even projected at a pressure.
A more realistic comparison would be to throw frit though your flame, then it doesn't even have time to really heat up.
Even if you could slow the projection down enough to heat the frit, who really wants hot glass shooting around in their studio? Maybe im one of the few but i wouldnt use such a torch in my shop even if it was a freebe. My shop gets messy enough with out frit being sprayed all over it.

[Udai Hussien]

what about a powder?

[IrieGuy05]

Maybe if you had a boro version of that gas that mixes with oxy as the fuel..

But really I'm with dude why would you spray semi molten frit around your shop.

[mindblowingglass]

Powder would require far less psi.
The only problem w/ powder is that you would definately need a "sealed booth"
to use it in incase any of the powder remains airbourne.

Realisticly you could take a carlisle w/ a #5 centerfire and feed powder though your prop inlet and probably produce such a torch. It may require a little machineing inside but I would imagen , due to the size of powder, you could probably get away w/ doing it w/ out any machineing to the torch. (but you would def. contaminate the inside the burner and would need to "flush" it before going back to useing it as a centerfire.)
Powder would realisticly heat easier than frit and could possably work.
(but like the frit, I wouldnt want to use one in my shop, airbourne factor aside, the mess)

[Udai Hussien]

Oh I tottally agree with the sealed area, you definatly dont want that stuff airborune... its a neat idea... but it is a bit impraticle (sp?) and you are right, it would be a horrible mess... I ish that the recycling programs would recycle boro...

[smutboy420]

Ya it sounds like death waiting around the corner for something like this to come out.
in theory it could work if you had a torch that had something like a sand blaster in place of a center fire. Its almost how spray sintering works.
Its also close to how some hard facing is applied to steel cept steel has some electrical properties that glass don't. So it would be back to the sintering deal if you wanted to spray powers in to a flame to apply a coating on to a target object. but you would have to do it in a closed off cabinet or something. Or else you are going to have a nasty air quality issue on your hands. (or should I say in your lungs) I find even working with powders the reg old fashion way tends to get a lot of it airborn and its not cool. ventilation sometimes even tends to help pull more of it air born then when the air is still. I can't even picture how dirty the air would be from open air glass sintering. (its usually done in a closed off chamber or spray tower.)

The way of using a gas vapor would have to be tweaked so it would leave a layer of boro instead of silicon glass. But even as it is it would be some nasty funky stuff. the gases are all corrosive and need every fitting from the tank to the torch to be stainless steel. Its also a controlled item so you have to tell some one what you are doing with it. It rusts any thing that can rust with in a few days just from being in the air. then if you start adding stuff like boron gases to the mix and stuff like that you got your self one corrosive mix. Then thats just the gas itself. When the torch is burning you will have a quartz bloom like substance in the air.
Tho it seems like there could still be 1001 places for this to be practical in a large production set up of some kind I don't see any of the ways of doing it being a good thing for a small studio set up.
But could have possibilities somewhere. like coated tube or something.

[Brian Newman]

Another problem is if you have a fine enough particle size to soften to working temp while passing through the flame, it is prone to instant overworking due to the high persentage of surface area, and others use specialy formulated glass for the powder.
Powder, yes. With extra sodium borate because of the small particle size

[Mr. Smiley]

I'm thinking a step up from powder. A fine frit that doesn't have particles large enough to stay in the air long... but small enough to melt quickly. The prep of the "powder" would be key. I don't think anybody was talking actual chunks of glass here. Something small that melts almost instantly. I may set up a little experiment with my lathe and see what happens. I'm used to making a mess, so I don't mind. I'll be careful not to snort the dust. ;)

[Udai Hussien]

If you are running a lathe, why not speed up the chucks, get the tube stage two, then blow the powder (cold) onto the hot tube so it melts onto the tube? Like a powdercoat? so there is no molten powder spray

[gwbgone]

You can just load up a airbrush with fine frit and water and spray it on hot glass. I have seen it done on a sheet of boro plate and then rolled up. Having the sprayer builtin the torch sounds sticky-

ARI

[Brian Newman]

This has been done before, but not on a small scale. Perhaps something as simple as a beer can hopper over the flame would work, It's worth a try. Others have gone to the lengths of making the parts out of tungsten carbide to avoid contamination and wear due to the abrasive qualities of powdered glass. I still think the biggest stumbling block with this technique is the glass overworking and the lack of a specially formulated glass to deal with this.

[Mr. Wonka]

It seems to me that you would spend more time cleaning your work area and tending to the hopper / feeding mechanism every time you wanted to change colors.

I'm not knocking your idea bro, and you (or Nortel) should use the feedback / comments from this thread to decide if it's an idea worth spending time and money on. As I said in my original post- It sounds like a great idea for a factory, but not very practical for the individual glass worker. That leaves you with a very limited market... even a factory / manufacturer would have to do some serious re-tooling to produce a product that anybody can make with a $30.00 frit tray and a few extra minutes of prep work.

Just my .02

[Marc VandenBerg]

Wouldn't this process create either a haze or a lot of small bubbles? "Peloguso" encasement, Italian process where bubbles are purposely introduced to the glass.

[Brian Newman]

Wouldn't this process create either a haze or a lot of small bubbles? "Peloguso" encasement, Italian process where bubbles are purposely introduced to the glass.
This method is used in fused quartz manufacture and is as clear as can be.

[cIRclE]

This new torch idea kinda like a cancer ray gun. Wonder if the frit could be propelled with cadmium gas and silver fumes. Ill do anything to make a cool pipe. It would be easier to take a huge rip of frit out of a bong and just blow it out through an old point handle right onto your art. Anyway, who has time for rolling hot glass on some frit.

[Brian Newman]

This is still in the design stage, so if anyone wants to help, please do. The worry about the need for specialy formulated glass is unfounded. The powdered glass must be 200 mesh or finer.
I spoke with Peter yesterday, and there is a prototype he has for a new torch I may be able to play with. It is between the red max and S.S.Q. in size, designed to have a minor inserted as a center fire. He also said he could build more, so if anyone builds an oxy/glass feed to fit in the place of a minor, we are off to the races. Perhaps a small sandblaster powered with oxygen. I was thinking of a replaceable glass tube for the insert to avoid any contamination from abrasion. Beyond that, this is still just an idea, and I welcome any help people may offer.

[homer]

This seems like a far fetched idea....I am still asking myself what would this be good for? Not knocking your idea, just wondering what applications you see this being beneficial for? Wouldn't glass particles that size just boil like hells fury?

Home-skillet.

[Brian Newman]

The glass would not have a chance to get hot enough to boil, only being in the flame for a fraction of a second. Perfectly even encasements, or applications where you would use a stump-sucker with soft glass are just a couple of uses I see.

[happyharold]

I googled the "glass flame spray" idea and came up with a good hit, check www.totalbullshit.com/flamespray.not

[Racer X]

yeah

[Merlin]

This sounds like the coolest idea Ihave heard in a long time. Just the application of being able to airbrush with glass alone, is revolutionary. I used to draw alot and can really apreciate the mastery that would be nessesary to create a glass picture made using a tool like this (not as easy to erase). It would be nice to use to coat a tube, but something that you could "paint" with would open up more arenas of use. Maybe a small version of this prototype that is hand held and has controls that you can fine tune as well as manipulate easily.

I would suggest, reflecting on the productive comments that people have posted. Dont let anyone's negativity discourage you. People are always skeptical of new ideas that push bounderys. Sometimes it is just hard for them to picture the way you do. I am sure it wont be an easy task, and you will most likely have to endure some trial and error. Just make sure you don't put yourself in danger.

As far as saftey goes, Brian sounds like he knows what he is doing, and when he dosent, I think he is smart enough to get assistance from those who do (I hope). I have read plenty of posts regarding messes that this would create. I dont get it, the idea is that the glass is molten when it reaches its destination. The only mess should be the glass that missed the piece (it should be easy for any experienced lampworker to avoid missing) and stuck to whatever is underneath and behind it. That is why we work in at a well ventelated, fireproof station. It should go without saying that when you introduce a tool of this dynamic to your work space your work space must change to adapt to it.

Thanks for researching whether or not this can be done practically.

Be carefull

[happyharold]

Yo, this is harold again. Previous post I said that glass flame spray is a .not ieda, but above post says air brush with glass and this is already being done- prehaps not in the way you may be thinking of.

Check the web, fusing sights. Powder is mixed with i don't know what and sprayed on to the surface of glass (all done cold). The mixer everaporates and the whole thing goes into the kiln. As far as i could tell the gun bears little to no diffrence to a normal one, though i bet the tip and hose have been replaced with a little something something.