COE 104 or COE 33?

[Dragonharper]

I'm getting ready to make my first glass purchase, for learning purposes. Eventually I want to work Boro but should I learn on "soft glass" or jump straight to boro? I've been doing some playing melting beer bottles and using a mild steel rod for a punty but I need to get serious and actually make something. I've read, both here and at LE, contradictory advice as to which to start with. Boro is stiffer takes more heat but should be easier to control. Soda Lime is runnier takes less heat but appears to be a little harder to control. I eventually want to get into marbles and ornaments so boro is the destination, I figure on starting with implosion pendants, marbles seem to be a logical next choice. So, just jump right into boro? My torch can handle it so that is not an issue.

Thanks

[Icarus]

Boro... all the way.

[Pogo]

Boro!!!!!!

[J Howard]

you're pretty much on the boro board here!

it's all glass, melt it all. on the torch by itself i prefer boro. on a pipe or a mandrel, soft glass

[Jeffs Pieces]

try putting the 2 together and watch it crack

[berning]

all 33, all the time.

[Shatner]

Another one for boro!

[stackerson]

shhhiiittt!! like ^^^ said you're on board the boro bus, take the ride and enjoy. its a long road ahead.

[Dragonharper]

Thanks all. So there is no real either way, cool, will be ordering glass and "Contemporary Lampworking" tonight.

[vetropod]

Real men use 104 COE.

[Uriel]

104 melts quick and stays soft 33 melts slow and has a lesser molten time. I personally feel I wasted 12 valuable months working 104, although I did enough time to know if i ever melt 104 again it WILL be too soon.

Its all down to choice and versatillity 104 is more restrictive than with how much you can make from it (again personal opinion)

[naughty pirate wench]

I'm bi...

glassual that is, LOL. :evilLaugh I started out on 104 and then started with boro. I think each COE has its applications, and should be appreciated for itself, and I think there are valuable skills you can learn from working both. From what I've heard, it's easier to learn 104 and then go to 33, than it is to learn 33 and then go to 104.

There's a thread around from when I started working 33 - let me see if I can dig up the link - a bunch of sweet people offered suggestions and information that might be of some use to you. Here's the link to the first post in the thread: http://www.talkglass.com/forum/showpost.php?p=403397&postcount=1

[..SGL..]

Boro all the way, 104 is soup. imo

[jseden]

I started with 104 and think I learned alot of really valuable things from it. Definatly made me appreciate how forgiving 33 is

[vetropod]

If you don't like soup, might as well work quartz. I think its only 4 COE...

[Kevin Bumble]

asking that ? on this board yer gonna get advice on the boro side of things we might be a little bias here.

[Dragonharper]

Christine,
Thanks for the reply *and* the link very helpful.

Every has been very helpful so far. I realize that most people on here lean toward boro, but I've gotten, IMHO, some good answers. Like I said earlier I've been melting beer bottles and that isn't going so well. Not that I want to abandon the recycled art idea, but they nee some prep work first. I'm thinking crushing and then fusing into a useable shape in the kiln.

[kbinkster]

Ornaments and marbles can be made from either soft glass or boro.

Soft glass may be a better choice for ornaments. How much detail do you want? Soft glass offers more detail than boro. If you were wanting to make ornaments by blowing into a mold, like the old Lauscha Christmas decorations, then you would want soft glass, and not necessarily 104. You can blow soft glass from a blow tube, too, to make your own shapes. There is also soft glass tubing (for example, neon tubing is soft glass, I believe, but I don't know what COE it is). Boro is lighter and a little hardier, so if extra fine detail is not important to you, then boro would be fine.

As for marbles, for a lot of people it comes down to the level of detail and the clarity. If you were wanting to make detailed paperweight type marbles with realistic flowers, I would say definitely go with soft glass. The work involved in getting crystal clear is worth it. However, if you don't want that level of detail, and you want nice clean clear without a lot of hassle, then go with boro. Boro can still offer good detail, just not as delicate a detail as soft glass. Since boro is lighter, it is also easier to handle the larger you go. The fact that it does not thermal shock as easily as soft glass is a big bonus, too.

You might think that since soft glass does not take as much heat to work, so you don't have to have as much firepower. But, if you plan on doing any murrini pulls, then you will need some serious firepower for the pulls. I think boro is hotter to work with, though, since it has to be hotter to move than soft glass.

It used to be that boro was the only glass that offered the exotic silver colors. In recent years, that has changed. However, these exotic colors are less expensive in boro, it seems, than in soft glass.

It's a give and take. Each glass has its strengths and weaknesses. There's no reason why you can't work both.:) If you decide to work both types of glass, remember that many techniques can be transferred from one type to the other, but you work the glass differently in the flame (typically, you can work boro a lot closer to the face of your torch than soft glass). And, like Christine mentioned, it is easier to learn soft glass and move to boro than it is to learn boro and move to soft glass.

It's all good. Just have fun!

[Dragonharper]

Kim,
Thanks for the response, lots to think about.

[Icarus]

Boro all the way, 104 is soup. imo

http://www.brassdragon.biz/cambell-soup-good-food-meter-slogan-close-e9861.jpg

[Dragonharper]

^^:rollin

[Dragonharper]

I guess what every one is saying is learn it all.

[Shatner]

I guess what every one is saying is learn it all.

I don't think anyone is saying that. Each has it's own pros and cons. Weigh them both and see which one works better for you.

This is a boro board mostly, so you'll get more boro answers. Melt both and see which one's for you. Just make sure to keep soft glass away from the boro pile and vice versa.

[vetropod]

I don't think anyone is saying that.

Uh, no, I think he def must learn it all, as in EVERYTHING!!! Prove your worth boy! :tantrum:

[Dragonharper]

Uh, no, I think he def must learn it all, as in EVERYTHING!!! Prove your worth boy! :tantrum:

:evilLaugh Challenge accepted! :evilLaugh

But seriously, this is an adventure not a destination correct, then why not try to learn it all?

[Icarus]

:evilLaugh Challenge accepted! :evilLaugh

But seriously, this is an adventure not a destination correct, then why not try to learn it all?

I agree. To an extent. In trying to learn it all, you can also spread yourself so thin that you learn little or nothing.

Personally, I got into this wanting to make pipes. I have a love for all things glass, but pipes were mostly what got me interested. So really my only real choice was boro. Now that I work glass, I rarely make pipes, but every time I've used soft glass I'm partially amazed at how long is stays soft, and partly annoyed by it. I usually just can't wait to get back to my boro set up. However, had I learned on soft glass, I don't think I'd feel the same (I'd also be much better about making sure that everything stays hot).

Also, most of your tools will translate over, but you're really going to want to have to different benches if you want to different types of glass. Because of their COE, if you mix the two different types of glass, you're going to experience a whole lot of heatbreak. So while you can move the tools back and forth between benches, you can't at all let the glass on the benches mingle.

In all honesty, it's cheaper to get into soft glass because you can start on a propane only Hot Head torch. But given the chance, and now knowing that my interest doesn't really lie in pipes too much, I'd still go with boro over soft glass any day. There's just so much more you can do with it.

[Dragonharper]

Icarus,
Well made points, no pun intended. I'm old enough, I won't say how old but Pogo is the age of my kids, to know that I can't try to learn it all at once but having a good start, while not crucial to success, can give you a leg up. I got a good deal on a good sized used torch so that won't be an issue for now. I think I will probably start with soft glass simply because it's cheaper and uses less fuel, while learning this sounds appealing. As I've said before, my retirement funds are in the toilet and I don't want to pursue my present career for 20 more years. I want/need something with a creative outlet that I can invest in now, without the mental drain like my day job, so that in 7-10 years it can augment what little remains of my retirement. I have always been fascinated with glass and water, okay red hot iron too, I like the way light behaves as it moves through and around both. The only thing I've melted so far is a beer bottle, I'll have to photograph the maria if it hasn't cracked, and just playing with what I've read about implosions I think I have achieved a good first step. At one point I had the glass so hot it wouldn't stay on the steel punty. :P I appreciate your concern that I'll spread myself too thin and learn nothing, I *will* keep that in mind as I learn. If you read my sig., I've learned that lesson the hard way, more than once. :bummed:

Thanks,
Roy

[obscure_shadow]

i started with soft glass and i wouldn't trade it, i try to work both 104 and 33 every day and i think it's taught me a whole lot about my flame chemistry a lot faster than if i had just stuck with one or the other. i've recently been playing around w/ 96 tho because they have colors that stand up to stretching a whole lot better...
thing is it's really hard to get good clear in 104 or it's really expensive, but you can get really high quality clear boro for a lot cheaper, but the color pallet for 104 is a bit nicer i feel. this is because they can use some chemicals that burn out at the temperatures required for working boro.
i feel like i get a much better deal on the stuff that i make from soft glass, it doesn't usually take as long or as much heat and is usually smaller than things i make out of boro, pendants and smaller things, where as making pipes and larger sculptures for the same price, less intracate usually but bigger, i'm less interested in making and don't get as good of a price w/ the materials involved.

[Greymatter Glass]

128 Satake all day.

Who said Soup?


Shit melts with an alcohol lamp.


(I really only work boro)

[Dragonharper]

Like kbinkster and Icarus said both have their advantages and disadvantages. The Architect/Engineer in me says learn both. The artist says use what works for the situation. ...

[kbinkster]

128 Satake all day.

Who said Soup?


Shit melts with an alcohol lamp.


(I really only work boro)

I just bought some glass that is COE 133, I believe. I have not tried it out, yet. Im a little skeert. I'm going to test it on the centerfire of my Phantom with a cool flame and see how that goes. If that is too hot, I'll use my Bic lighter.

The main reason that I got that glass is because lately, I have been interested in Tonbo Dama Japanese bead making techniques and want to make some intricate murrini with it. I watched a video of guy encasing with Satake and was amazed at how he just laid down a bead/trail of clear around the mass he was encasing and then just smeared it to one side and then the other with a little trowel. It looked as easy as decorating a cake! (BTW, I tried this method with 104 and although it was somewhat stiffer, it worked.)

Malcolm at Artco had a sample pack of a super soft glass that was even softer than Satake and I thought it would be fun to try. He said that it would melt on the dash of your car, that's how soft it is. I think he was just kidding around, but we'll see. I was told that the difference between working this super soft glass and 104 is about the same as the difference between 104 and 33.


There is just so much out there to try!


Roy, if you are wanting to experiment around with beer bottles some more, then the next thing you can try is poking holes in the maria, covering them with more beer bottle glass so you trap a bubble, and try imploding that. You can use all sorts of things to poke little dents in the glass, but pin frogs (found in the flower arranging section of hobby/craft stores - I got some from Michaels) or even something you make on your own with wood and nails will give you a uniform pattern of dots all at once. I would think that that would be a bigger challenge than working with glass rods of any COE. Be safe!

[Dragonharper]

Kim,
The big challenge to beer bottles, besides the dark color, is that they tend to break as you heat them up. I was thinking that when I get a kiln, I could lightly crush them then use a fusing mold to make them into rod like shapes.

Am I correct in assuming that the reason that higher COE glasses have better detail is that the lower melting point and longer working time allow for finer stringers? The reason I'm curios is we, my wife and I, like ren fairs and I've been doing some research on the origins of lamp working specifically Renaissance Italy. I know that the glass used was much softer than modern glass, and that the rods were all hand pulled. Might be fun to try to make beads with period glass and period equipment, once I get the modern stuff figured out.

[Icarus]

I don't know about period equipment, but I thin the flow just featured a lady who does period beads.

Well, it sounds like you've given this some thought. Glad to have you here, and good luck. You're gonna have a lot of fun.

[kbinkster]

Roy, I think that if you crush up your glass, then you could melt small pieces at a time until you have a big gather - just use a thick stainless steel rod (like a chopstick or 1/8" 316L [308 would be o.k., too] uncoated welding rod) and heat the end and use that to pick up some of the little chunks. Melt those and with the molten blob, pick up more chunks. Do this until you get a pretty good sized gather and then either punty up with another steel rod or use some needle nosed pliers or big tweezers and pluck the end of the gather and then pull into a rod. If you let the gather cool a little so that a slight skin is formed on the outer layer, you will be able to pull a thicker rod than if it is soupy when you pull.

Generally speaking, the softer the glass is, the more you can squish it (also translates into tighter patterns in murrini) and the sharper you can rake it. The softness of a glass is not determined by COE alone and within each COE, you will have certain colors that are stiffer or softer than others.

[Dragonharper]

Thanks to all who have responded, but esp to Kim and Icarus who, in my opinion, have gone out of their way to help a noob get started. Gonna try and rep both for their help. With the friends in this forum/community I think a have a better chance for success.

[Pogo]

...a lady who does period beads.
Do they form in her panties?



Kim and Ic have excellent points, but i think you need 50 posts to rep.... make 2 more and don't forget about 'em!

[Dragonharper]

It let me try at any rate. I received a nice little pop up box that said I added to their reputations... Does it lie?