Opinion Poll:Do you think oxygen concentrators are the future?

[frillcappa]

Ok so I Personally cannot justify one yet, But im seeing them pop up more and more, and Im wondering how many people think this will become a part of lampworking like getting your liquid, or K filled is right now.

Edit: I forgot to say why i think oxycons will be the way people lampwork in the future. As the technology grows, and it becomes more affordable to concentrate oxygen on the scale to run any torch with no problem, then it would be dumb not to. Say you can go to store and buy an oxycon that will put out 30-50psi, for say $1,000. Considering it would be of a reasonable size, NO larger than any liquid setup.... and if it wasn't too loud, I think it would be the perfect choice. and if you wanted a tank or 2 for the road, it could also fill tanks in a few hours. That would be my optimal setup...and i dont think its to far fetched to think its possible.

[hwcglass]

Oxygen generation and concentration technology has been around for a long time.

And for that long people have chosen tanked.

And I don't see that changing.

For many reason.

[Headdi Retti's Glass Art Studio]

I don't think oxy-con's will replace liquid in totality. And I don't think oxy-con's are the future as they are now designed, however someone will come and fill the void with a unit that is more powerful and better suited to lampworking , and glasspiping, till then there will be DIY builds like the ones you see here, which is what I will do cause liquid is just to far, and expensive for where Iam at. I will always keep a back up tank, for the road. But as for me I will make my on oxy, for several reasons. And if I can figure a way to go bigger, Better, then awesome. Till then I will link compress and whatever I need to do to these oxy-con's to have my on homemade oxy on hand all times!.

[p.j.]

liquid all day, everyday.

if shit goes wrong with a rented dewar, then it is the gas co's problem, not yours. a replacement is only a phone call away. instead of isolating the problem and replacement time of the problem part. it sucks to be out of work due to technical issues

[gn0me]

Speaking as someone who's never had a K-tank filled (for himself at least ;)) there's no way I'd do anything else, unless the situation demanded it.

My system cost a total of about $500 and for that I'm running a CC+... sure, I could go for another concentrator and tank, so I could rage even more, but it wouldn't be worth the hassle for me to deal with a gas company and have dewars delivered and move tanks around just to run my single torch.

If I were in a much larger environment, though, I don't think there would be any other way but liquid... I could see running two torches on a concentrator system but not more than that... part of the reason my system works so well is that the low pressure storage (from 100psi or so) gets used while I'm raging the outerfire, but recharges any time I'm using the inner. The sheer size of the system required to run a bench would be too large not to see the benefit of a single dewar. From concentrators to storage tanks to compressors, and the electricity consumption thereof, a dewar would be much more economical and feasible.

But, for the home user, I don't see any reason to deal with hauling tanks around or doing much more than hitting a switch to turn your torch on. I don't ever run out of oxy, either, which is a lovely bonus :)

[l33t:weasel]

oxycons are the future of glass blowing in space. :Mars::alien2:
hear on earfth i doubt it.

however:

if we are able to use nano-technology to develop "the perfect selective membrane" then after the original patent for that expires - absolutely.

i would like to see a poll. how much $ does your oxy-con add to your power bill.
what is the power consumption of those things anyways?

[berning]

i would like to see a poll. how much $ does your oxy-con add to your power bill.
what is the power consumption of those things anyways?

i didn't notice the change in power bill when i plugged in the oxy/con. so i'm gonna say it's minimal. it's just a lil digital sreen and a tiny compressor.

the future, doubt it.

personally i'm tryin ween myself of my oxy/con. a few property modifications and work out the logistical nightmare of the winter/snow. , and i'm movin on to liquid.

[Sweettooth glass]

Once you can rage your torch with free oxy you know. Oxycons work, they just dont come that way. someday someone will sell the setup, untill then my homemade system runs a phantom and carlisle cc all day. One day no glassblower will have to go to a weilding shop for 25000psi oxy when all we need is 20-30psi. Free oxy is everwhere.

[l33t:weasel]

how long does the bed in those things last? if its really that easy on the power-bill i would consider buying the next one (3) i see for cheap. but i dont expect it to become my general solution for oxy.

[gn0me]

how long does the bed in those things last? if its really that easy on the power-bill i would consider buying the next one (3) i see for cheap. but i dont expect it to become my general solution for oxy.

One of my 'cons is at about 27,000 hours. That's 3 years of continuous operation, or about 13 years of 40 hour work weeks...

Of course, they are not entirely maintenance free. The compressors need to be rebuilt after every 12,000ish hours of use, and there are various other parts that need to be replaced more frequently (various filters and fittings) but they're designed for medical use, and intensive use at that. The beds seem to last as long as they're not abused (don't drop them or run above max output, lower output means better oxy concentration anyway) and they can be repoured for $100 to 200 depending on the model...

with one or two you could run a centerfire, but with 15 or 20 lpm of flow you can power a torch if you compress it. IMO it's most worth it to do it that way.

[Headdi Retti's Glass Art Studio]

Like I said, I'll keep a bac up liquid, but as far as price, even buying the shit retail and all the fittings and BS your are still going to way ahead of the oxy game making your on, Look the people your buying it from are making it so why not you, plus who the Hell wants to lug heavy Dewar's around or even smaller tanks if there's no need?


Now if you got a hot shop in a city , town , metropolitan area and delivery is free , and you are running 6 stations all running Kobuki's then of course liquid is for you. I think as far as quality goes you get as good making your on. Look at all the Artist's work around TMP who are using just oxy-con's, stoker, gnome, Trey, sweettooth...etc just to name few look at the work they put out and some if the pics of there torches running. Some haven't bought oxy in years and have been payed back many times over. I started looking oxy-con's as soon as I realized acouple months back that I wanted to be a Glasspipe Artist, now I have 3 oxy-con's 2 5' s and a 10, and I have less than $360 with all three of them put together( not easy to do, and expect to pay more, but is possible), now there not new,(one almost is) or hurricanes but the point is you don't have to spend thousands of dollars right off the bat to get oxy, it would be easier but not required. Just Alittle patience and time which go hand in hand. And also goes with my Laidback and chill style, so works for me!, ....

Oh yeah one more thing I wanted to give a big public Thx to all mentioned above and the many more contributers to oxy-con's, and there setups, it has been Awesome information, and Iam truly grateful!.

[Uriel]

i would like to see a poll. how much $ does your oxy-con add to your power bill.
what is the power consumption of those things anyways?
I ran 2, 5lpm ones for 2 years for 7-12 hrs a day 5-6 days a week, they each ate 800w which is 1.6kw per hr X that by the 18p(im uk based) per kwh
Simple math averages 50hrs x 1.6kwh x 0.18Ppu= £14.00 per week to run with lower purity and only 10lpm coming from the hose. Add to that the original investment cost of the 2 machines @ £250 each = £500 & (50 weeks work) @ £700 per year without any maintanance costs thats £1200 a year for a setup that wasnt giving enough lpm to run a mirage ( I had a lynx) or enough purity to not reduce sensitive colours.

Im a bottle (soon to be lox) customer I produce more work from less hours in front of my torch now, feel less frustrated at the end results and have more time to spend with the people I love (which is a big part of me deciding to go full time with glass) and more time to market my & sell my work( ie lollygagg on facebook).
I can work larger easier (on the Lynx as well as the Mirage). It seems from my own case study I made the right decision to get away from the chugging noisy bastard little machines.

[nicko0]

Once you can rage your torch with free oxy you know. Oxycons work, they just dont come that way. someday someone will sell the setup, untill then my homemade system runs a phantom and carlisle cc all day. One day no glassblower will have to go to a weilding shop for 25000psi oxy when all we need is 20-30psi. Free oxy is everwhere.

your quote got me thinking

if the oxycons were as reliable and efficient as the commercial oxygen suppliers' equipment then producing oxy on location may be cheaper due to the fact that it doesnt have to be compressed or liquefied for transport or be transported. i also wouldnt be surprised if the largest expense in commercial oxy mfg is the labor and infrastructure.

i would like to see one made with the mind set of old farm equipment; slow simple overbuilt; to accomplish huge amounts of work with little wear. the low pressures and simple mechanisms of oxycons i could see lending themselves to being built that way.

[ALIEN!]

I think eventually someone will come up with a complete system that will run any torch for an affordable price, at which point the majority of lone wolfs will move to the generators, however liquid will remain the standard for shops running multiple stations.

[Headdi Retti's Glass Art Studio]

^^^^^^ Xactly, somebody besides me must of voted other, as they are now maybe not the future, but someone (and it would not suprise me if it were someone here, hehh heh) will be building these oxy-con's suited for glasspipe art and lampworking, make no doubt when there's a void it will be filled, where there is market it will be made. Till then oxy can be made by yourself. Done right it's very safe. I know there are people right now with more talent than I who are working this out as this is written.


Once it is built and marketed at a reasonable price then with the exception of large operations I would say more whould produce there on, especially the solo artist. For me I am all about self sufficiency. So it goes without saying that I'll always make oxy. I can find plenty of cheap oxy-con's to keep me going till I can make my on bigger /better system. Or who knows maybe I will be the one to invent a oxy-con capable of keeping up with acouple viper's at full rage, I've seen stranger things happen right before my eyes! There is no doubt in my mind someone will do it! Hey if Bates can make a working all glass torch you can believe there's plenty of talent around here to make a commercial concentrator .

[Boxcutter]

we have been running a single concentrator and a compressor. it's rated at 50%. we can't rage 24/7 but running two torches for a few hours each day without the hassles of going to the welding spot has been great. my shopmate has done the math and barring any unforseen failures, it should pay for itself in 2 years. the place we got it from hooked us up with some free replacement parts and had terrific customer service. i'm happy for now.

[ITIS]

my idea is a hydrogen generator. take water and use electrolysis to separate it into its individual components.
there is already a small jewelers torch for melting silver and soldering and what not that runs by plugging it into the wall and filling a tank with water. i want that on a bigger scale.

[glassblowingBiker]

well i have done the math a few times and at about 6k to run just my delta im going to stick with liquid for now

[Mac Maestro]

Vote: YES.

I'm looking to negate screw ups that cost me money, so I think it is in MY future for sure. Every once in a while I'll mess up and not order the liquid in time. Then I'm stuck buying K tanks for a week - which is REALLY expensive compared to liquid.

Other times the oxy company is at fault when they give me liquid dewars that bleed out leaving me oxy-less. I work every day, and if I miss a day I lose $$$.

Last factor is residential delivery. I would eventually like to build a shop and move my setup to my home. But the oxy companies say they will not deliver to a residential neighborhood. Making my own seems the best way for my future.

[jflo]

Speaking as someone who's never had a K-tank filled (for himself at least ;)) there's no way I'd do anything else, unless the situation demanded it.

My system cost a total of about $500 and for that I'm running a CC+... sure, I could go for another concentrator and tank, so I could rage even more, but it wouldn't be worth the hassle for me to deal with a gas company and have dewars delivered and move tanks around just to run my single torch.

If I were in a much larger environment, though, I don't think there would be any other way but liquid... I could see running two torches on a concentrator system but not more than that... part of the reason my system works so well is that the low pressure storage (from 100psi or so) gets used while I'm raging the outerfire, but recharges any time I'm using the inner. The sheer size of the system required to run a bench would be too large not to see the benefit of a single dewar. From concentrators to storage tanks to compressors, and the electricity consumption thereof, a dewar would be much more economical and feasible.

But, for the home user, I don't see any reason to deal with hauling tanks around or doing much more than hitting a switch to turn your torch on. I don't ever run out of oxy, either, which is a lovely bonus :)

Are you still running an oxycon in your system? If so what size concentrator are you running and what sice compressor?

[wfsupply]

Worked for a year off of 3 M-15's. There's zero reason for me to ever go back to a concentrator. I like heat not air.

[jflo]

What do you mean you like heat not air?

You saying the 3 m15s didnt push enough O2 for your torch?

[wfsupply]

I had a Red Max with (3) EX-15's attached to them. The flame was nice, about 12" long on the tightest largest setting. Then when upgrading to a Mirage, I had compressed o2 instead on the Red Max for a few days. The Red Max made me wonder if I needed the Mirage it was that big of a difference. I've always been told (and said) that being on concentrators was 80% of a flame from compressed tanks, but it's probably more like half.

I'm glad I sold the units, and they will work very exceptionally well for any torch *smaller* than the red max, and for inner fires too maybe, but not for someone who wants to make marbles over 1" in size, work tube over 38mm, or do any wide melts to make tabletops or bongs.

[gn0me]

Are you still running an oxycon in your system? If so what size concentrator are you running and what sice compressor?

Concentrators so far: Invacare 5lpm, Integra 10lpm x2, one needed comp. rebuild
Compressor: Gast 1HAB-25-m100x - needed rebuild
Tanks: 3-11gallon tanks in manifold

I got a good deal on two of the concentrators... with the third it puts me up to about $700 in total. A bit more storage is probably forthcoming but 33gal with 25ish lpm recharge rate is pretty good. Use of a footpedal or centerfire flame allows the system to recharge. I think I can get away with 20lpm with this compressor combo. Pulling a vacuum while compressing to 100psi seems to wear on the valves more than normal.

The way I found out about needing compressor rebuilds was, sadly, lots of increased work devitrification.... the glass gets really sensitive when oxy % is less than about 85% and the compressor was sucking in a fair amount of regular outside air... colors still worked alright but the air starts reacting with the glass and making strange things happen, devit wise.

With the concentrators running at their normal ~93% concentration, it's pretty much just like working on tanked oxy (I run the CC+ and minor hand torch at ~40psi). Glass of poor formulation, like some chinese black, can get increased work devit, but only slightly more than tanked oxy.

I shouldn't need much more maintenance (aside from changing filters and such) for quite some time. Not hauling tanks around or paying delivery fees RULES. There is the cost of electricity but I think it's worth it for now. I'll do some calculations to find price per CF by kWh some time soon...

[drew1492]

Oxy Cons and Homefills are great you get the benefit of not going to the oxy store and the cost savings. Plus the advantage of being able to rage your torch for doing tube pulls or other large gathers.

[BigTeasel]

Hey gnome, do you have pics of your system? i'm really interested in something like that to run my phantom, and i think i'll save a ton of money in the long run, but i'm not really sure where to start. any diagrams or images would be a huge help!

[gn0me]

I'm working on a writeup now, as a matter of fact. Things are pretty busy in my lair, but I just got a huge storage tank that really tops the system off. I also found out that a full 25LPM of concentration is overkill for the Gast 1-HAB single cylinder compressors, though running individual concentrators at lower LPM is beneficial to oxygen purity. 20 LPM is about right, and 15LPM will work, with the compressor putting the supply line under vacuum until about 65 PSI (at which point it can't compress more than 15LPM). So, in short, more than 15LPM is not strictly necessary, but increases the system performance if you end up really going through oxy quickly.

I'll post a pic in a couple days, with a photo tut a little while after :bouncy:

[Albino Sasquatch]

I use a scorp with 3 ex15s and i know it runs just as good as tank gas. ive ran both outta it. it has to do with what kind of torch you are using and how much o2 it wants to chew through.

[BigTeasel]

awesome thanks Gnome!

[nodice]

It's kinda interesting to see people recommending diy oxy compressing systems, telling them how to clean out tanks, and saying that things like oiled compressors work great and are quiet. Maybe it's just me, but I wouldn't want some do it yourselfer compressing oxy next door with a system they put together.......

[BigTeasel]

haha, i wouldn't trust a me-built oxy system either. i've got a pro to put on the job once i get some good info.

[Rowdy]

Are you kidding me, are you scared?

You juggle molten glass and play with a fire light saber, that is insane to most sheople. A lot of the folks that blow glass are out of the box thinkers that are classic D.I.Y. er's. Hell most probably supply their own medicine, wink, wink! I love resourceful folks that refuse to conform and push the limits, true rebels are made out of being told you can't do something. Our nature of work tends to attract those rebels.

I like technology and pushing boundaries!

Good luck, peace

[BigTeasel]

it's not about fear. fear involves the unknown. using a plastic barrel and inflating it to 100psi doesn't involve the unknown. it involves the knowledge that it will fail, and possibly catastrophically. the only unknown part is 'when.' i'm half a macguyver over here. hell, give me a grapefruit, a pencil, a salt shaker, and a dime and i can build you an airplane...but not if i'm the one that's going to be flying it....

[Rowdy]

I agree on the plastic barrel to 100 psi, don't think I would have started there. Still like the idea of not paying the oxygen pirates. The latest designs look as if the are very legit, I'd like to see more on the Hurricane and it's limitations.

Good luck, peace

[Destrukt]

The less oxygen in your oxygen, the more air/oxygen mixture you are going to need to get the flame you want, which means a higher velocity, colder flame. Like gnome said, this will cause the sandblaster effect. Liquid is so clean.... I'd rather have 200liters of liquid sitting next to me than a plastic pickle jar full of compressed oxygen, waiting to blow(good thing the percentages are too low to ignite the plastic which is made of petroleum). Then there is the electricity to generate and compress, the noise... I pay too much for liquid, but it's worth every penny. If you make beads and pendants on a small torch and you are at a hobbyists pace, go for the concentrator. Everybody else would benefit from liquid.

[Mac Maestro]

I went from liquid to making my own. I know I already commented on this but not dealing with oxy companies makes me SO F'IN HAPPY! No more "we'll have that for you sometime next week" or "what do you mean the tank vented out in one week" or "PPPPSSSSSSSHHHHHTTTTT". I went through several oxy companies and they ALL raised my blood pressure. I work every day and if I can't? Look out. That's the main reason I'm in this profession anyways to be self reliant and not to be forced to deal with idiots.

Things are running smoothly and consistantly now. I still smile when I look at all of my machines and see the lights that say FILLING. (They might as well say WINNING)

[Snurf]

Homefill ftw! so nice to never run out, or drive with tanks in the car! all that for half the price of rent on a liquid tank

[EFS]

I am lucky for now as i live two blocks from praxair and i get along real good with the head manager and the drivers(tips). They bring a freshie same day i ask for one. So for now it is cheap and easy for me to get liquid. If i lived in the country then i would look into a concentrator.

[faeryie]

I voted for "other" because i think we are moving away from disposable energy sources and towards renewable ones, and this applies to oxygen use in the glass world as well.

In MY decade of doing torchwork i have faced a dilemma: Oxygen generators never gave me the power to run my torch they way that K tanks and liquid oxygen did, but K tanks and liquid always ran out (at the most importune times. thanks murphy's law). I've added it up before- at then end of the year- all my business expenses, and one of my big money traps is always HAVING TO BUY MORE OXYGEN!! it sucks. it's expensive as hell.

I know now that a third option is out there. For the past few weeks I have been using High Volume Oxygen hv60- a system that allows me to compress the oxygen created by my generators, into a big tank. It doesn't take long- about 20 minutes, for my tank to get totally filled up, and then i can blast my torch on high for the rest of the day.

Hence- renewable oxygen. Clean, pure, renewable oxygen. It's seriously amazing. I am working with two other people some days, and the three of us can work, full power, off of one of these machines, and i think THIS is the future of oxygen.

[Greymatter Glass]

I voted for "other" because i think we are moving away from disposable energy sources and towards renewable ones, and this applies to oxygen use in the glass world as well.
...
Hence- renewable oxygen. Clean, pure, renewable oxygen. ...i think THIS is the future of oxygen.

You do understand that oxygen is a renewable resource right? We cannot make it or destroy it. (well, a reactor can... I digress)

The ENERGY required for us to isolate oxygen from the environment is just heat, pick your poison - oil, coal, wind, solar, geothermal, hydro, chemical, nuclear, whatever....

Everyone here who is using a concentrator to produce oxygen is using more energy per unit of oxygen than a larger air liquification plant does (economy of scale, bitches).


All you do by opting to use a concentrator instead of tanks/liquid oxygen is cut out a middleman and their profits to some degree... you're actually generating more pollution than they are per unit of oxygen (not counting delivery) and the end result is less pure, so you're compounding the problems....



I think there will come a day when we figure out a safe, reliable, cheap (or damn near free), source of energy that has a virtually zero impact on the environment (relative to todays standards at least) and when that days comes, there's going to be more change than any of us can imagine.

[Julian]

(not counting delivery)

Oxygen gets trucked around in diesel semis... why would your reckoning of total pollution not count delivery?

[Greymatter Glass]

Well, couple reasons...

It's too wide a ranging variable - some oxygen goes a few miles, some goes 200+ miles... I guess I could add the caveat that the further you are from the point of production the more sense a concentrator would make if your primary concern is energy use and pollution...most people seem more concerned with total cost and convenience. There's really nothing "green" about being a glass blower.

But mainly because it's not part of this equation - it's not that it's not an issue and can just be ignored, but I am talking about production, not delivery.

The cost of oxygen is directly tied to the cost of the energy used to produce it, with little margin. I think it would be interesting to know what percentage of the total energy cost of getting oxygen to your torch is comprised of transportation. I'll ask someone at Airgas next time I'm there. I suspect it's a pretty major concern for suppliers, and they'll have some figures. What I don't think is that it's significant, my guess is something less than 1%.


Follow the rest if you want, it's more of a worksheet to get my head around the energy costs of production based on various web source, mostly http://www.uigi.com/new_cryo_plants.html

My hypothesis is that post production plant to consumer delivery costs of oxygen comprises less than 1% of the total cost to deliver.

here's what I know:

A 5,000 gallon (23.8 ton) delivery to Airgas comes 2 or 3 times a day, and travels about 20 miles each trip, so really 40 miles round trip... 80-120 miles a day, and probably burns about 12-16 gallons of diesel to do it (modern semis run 6-8 mpg diesel.)


Large industrial air sep / liquifaction plants consume 1 to 10 megawatts of power, and produce 100-900 tons of LOX per day.

5,000 gallons LOX is about 23.8 tons (1.141gm/cm^3), a smaller "large" plant would supply Airgas with their 48-70 tons of liquid a day for about 1 megawatt.

It takes about 3800 tons of coal to make 12000 megawatts or a bit over 3 tons coal per megawatt...

So large tank worth of liquid oxygen, 5,000 gallons, takes a ton or two of coal to produce.

last I checked 1 or 2 tons of coal is more pollution than 15 gallons of diesel fuel.


Please feel free to check my math, I used google calculator, windows calculator, wikipedia, ww.uigi.com and www.fibatech.com...

[Greymatter Glass]

My brain is fried, I know I missed a few things, I revisit this later....


suffice to say, making oxygen takes energy, in the US most of our energy comes from coal (about 44%) and the remainder is mostly oil and natural gas, a healthy portion is nuclear and hydro, and a fair but small amount is from a variety of renewable and non renewable sources.

Every time you turn on your torch you're burning coal unless you're 100% off the grid, and even then the torch, the rubber hoses, the tanks, the concentrators - all have a carbon footprint.

[G.L.McBead]

OWN not on
and i can't spell at all

[hngntuf]

Doug, the distance from a distributor to a welding supply has a direct impact on what oxygen costs, according to the oxy guy. This came up due to me bitching about the price about a month ago. My take on this is . . . They gonna charge whatever they want to and blame it on somebody else. I paid $3.20/gal today for fuel, I bet the price of oxy hasn't dropped a penny, but the next substantial increase in oil prices will AGAIN trigger a price increase in everything else. Something's just not right about that.

Stephen

[Julian]

You might also want to take into account the resources expended to create, maintain and operate a fleet of vehicles. I think there is more involved than fuel.


But mainly because it's not part of this equation - it's not that it's not an issue and can just be ignored, but I am talking about production, not delivery.

We're talking about total cost and efficiency to create something used in our process, but you want to discard an essential element of the resource expenditure required to use the material. Why would that make sense?

[d3rk]

Oxy cons may not be the standard as of yet, but given the many valid points above, they should be.

[Monkythrowpoop]

I don't know if it's the future, I started on a concentrator when I started blowing glass 10 years ago. Eventually I moved into other people's shops and we shared liquid, but now that it's just me again I'm back to a concentrator (this time with a Homefill). So far very minimal issues, and since I can't get oxygen delivered to me and the trip to go get some takes an hour out of my day every few days, it makes sense on a lot of levels. I think for small personal use you can't beat it, but if you're running multiple torches, LOX all the way.
Hell, I got my last concentrator off of craigslist for $100 and he even delivered it to my studio. That's worth having when you have orders to fill/projects to work on and it's 5:04 on Friday and you realize you only have 100 lbs. left in that tank. I hook the concentrator to my centerfire, tank to the outer, and work all weekend.

[Hefe]

can anyone help me figure out what I would need to run one 40mm herbie in my shop? is it even possible?

right now I have to get compressed tanks, I get 3 tanks at a time...replace them weekly.

is it possible at all for me to run with a concentrator instead?

i dont know anything about this stuff...thanks for any help you can offer!

[drew1492]

can anyone help me figure out what I would need to run one 40mm herbie in my shop? is it even possible?

right now I have to get compressed tanks, I get 3 tanks at a time...replace them weekly.

is it possible at all for me to run with a concentrator instead?

i dont know anything about this stuff...thanks for any help you can offer!

With enough money it would be. You would probably be better off with a homefill if you are only going through 3 tanks a week.

[ALIEN!]

I dunno about O2 concentrators, but once GA and NS start making colored quartz its all gonna be about hydrogen. And yes, there will be lots of humanity.

[Hefe]

With enough money it would be. You would probably be better off with a homefill if you are only going through 3 tanks a week.
I'm trying to find where i can even locate some of this equipment.
K tanks to start with..

really wish i could just get liquid here..

[Monkythrowpoop]

Search around on craigslist. I found an A tank (the size below a K) for $30. I had to spend another $35 getting it checked/into occasional circulation at my o2 supplier. Still, $65 isn't bad.
Do you have an air compressor for your herbie? I bet that between that and a concentrator you could run your torch. Maybe not full blast, but usable.

Ben

[Newt]

Lets see...its quieter than the AC...its quieter than the fish tank...its definitely quieter than the TV or stereo, so I dont know where you are getting 'loud' from. Besides, how do you think the big air companies get their O2? Bigger version of yer oxy con and homefill system.

[byron3]

Oxy Cons are just another step in the technology chain. While a few years ago PSA was the new kid on the block it is already becoming obsolete technology. Destined to go the way of the vinyl record, 8 track tape, cassette tape, ...................

Advanced Technology Fractionators, are the newest of machines for us to devote our attention to.

http://www.sequal.com/corp_tech_comparison.php

[Gibsons Glassworks]

i have an m 20, runs my lynx all day phantom i use a K tank. cost hee is huge for oxy 60$ a k 400 for a liquid. spent waaaay to much on buying gas i LOVE my oxy con. i wish i had 5 more. the homefill seems to work well to.

has anyone talked about water powerd torches? i dont know why we arent doing that.. gotta be reasons im sure.

but yeah if u can avoid giving money to the gas company all the better

[RyanBaker]

More effective homefills seems far more likely. Or if they can actually make a single concentrator powerful enough to run both flames on a mirage or delta mag and cost less than the average $20 fill. But i just dont see that happening.

[Bclark773]

I've got the hv30, purchased from Marc at high volume oxygen. All I have to say is I love the system every day!

[Robert Mickelsen]

My two cents. I agreed to test-drive a hi-volume system a year ago and I have to say, I will probably never go completely back to liquid. The system has saved me nearly $5000 in a single year with no maintenance and minimal issues. At that rate, at full retail, the system will pay for itself in less than two years.

Now that said, every person has to make up his own mind if this is right for them. We can argue environmental impact all day long, but what it really comes down to is economics. Where I live, Airgas has no appreciable competition so the price keeps going up and up. I am currently paying over $200 for a 180 dewar counting taxes, fees, delivery, rental, etc. I would normally use two/month so you can do the math. It makes perfect sense for me to use the Hi-Volume system for my everyday needs. I work alone on my Mag and rarely run the outer flame so it is really a mirage. When I have a guest collaborator, I rent a liquid and then return it when we are done. I keep several K tanks around as back-up and for my wife who makes beads in her own (separate) studio.

I know of several people who pay really cheap prices for their dewars. One guy I heard only pays $79!!! For him, generating your own makes less sense. It would take much longer to recoup his investment than for me.

There are pros and cons no matter how you do this. All you can do is look at the info and decide as best you can what is right for you. For me, the Hi-Volume system is amazing. I could not be happier. I voted that more and more people will switch to generation in the future, but I agree that there will always be a place for commercial suppliers of oxygen in our business.

[Simian]

Thanks for that Robert, how much did your entire oxy system run you? I am running Phantom and was considering liquid but the fire marshall say no since I am in a residential area. Looking for a homefill fix.

[Mike_Aurelius]

I'll throw in my two cents as well:

As I've gotten older, my body parts aren't holding up all that well. Dragging around K tanks is no longer an option for me, much less moving a dewar. With a blown out knee and degenerative disc disease in my back, I look at everything in a different light. Wheels is good. Not moving effing heavy tanks is good. Not having to drive across town for a refill is good.

Do what you can while your body can still take the abuse, but look forward and prepare for the time when you cannot do what you used to do without thinking about it.

[LooseSeal Baller]

from my math a homefill setup will cost me less than 200$ a year in power and will save me over 1400.00$ in the first year alone and over 2,000$ any year after that.

and this is me using 2 k-tanks(paying 18.50/fill and 7.00$ haz.mat. fee) a week which is what i usually use. my .02

edit;correcting math:o:

[istandalone24/7]

IME & IMO, oxycons are great if you do this as a hobby, and if you have a torch that can be powered decently by oxycons. also assuming you have enough electrical outlets to safely daisy chain several together.

i run and phantom on a homefill...but a few weeks ago i dragged out my three ex15's and holding tank...i hadn't ran the oxycons since getting the homefill and the new torch. i was very pleasantly surprised at how well those 3 oxycons powered my phantom. i was able to keep a decently oxidizing flame with inner and outer on, so i guess i'm pretty happy with that setup.
that being said...i think i'll always have those oxycons and a homefill kicking around...when one breaks i can use the other system as a back up.

[chillrelaxglass]

Ive used both and I still prefer my tanked oxy.

[LowTideGlass]

Ive used both and I still prefer my tanked oxy. I don't think it's a question of preferring tanked vs Oxycons. It is more a matter of price, convenience, and physical limitations.

I think anyone would agree that straight bottled or liquid o2 is better quality than what oxygen concentrators can provide.

But for many, oxygen concentrator systems provide either a better price, greater convenience, or simply allow the user to physically be capable of glassblowing, as they are not able to move tanks around.

[Simian]

Doesn't a homefill system achieve the tanked result?

[istandalone24/7]

almost.....the purity isn't as good as what you'd get from airgas or a welding supply shop. when i exchange tanks at airgas i notice an increase in heat as opposed to using homefilled tanks.

[glassshack]

it's all about where you are.....here in hawaii for sure.... 37cent a klwt hr.....to get a dewer to our island
is around $1100 bucks...plus loss, while venting,,,,,, a k tank is $125ish.......O2 bill use to be $900 a month....electric went up about $250 a month when added.... our oxy cons are the future for some....about to hook it up with the High Volume Oxygen machine

[hammer]

My biggest problem with oxycons is keeping the temperature and humidity at the proper level. I can use oxycons maybe 7 months out of the year if lucky.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[dustyg]

My biggest problem with oxycons is keeping the temperature and humidity at the proper level. I can use oxycons maybe 7 months out of the year if lucky.

You could go for a more industrial solution with an air-dryer.

[hammer]

You could go for a more industrial solution with an air-dryer.

But how much would this cost ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[dustyg]

A lot. They last a long time and are very servicable from what I've read, though, so could end up being worth it.

[Aymie]

Something weird is going on in this thread. It says it has a current post, but the last post is months ago.

None the less, I can't believe it took so long for someone to mention High Volume Oxy. We had them come out and demo the system for us at the Armadillo last year. We ran 2 GTTs at full blast all weekend long and never had a single issue. It worked so well that we are considering running all of the torches off of their system this year, and Craig is seriously considering switching his whole shop over. I don't see it being cost efficient for a small studio, but if you have multiple stations, it will definitely save you money in the long run. The owners of HVO are great people and super easy to deal with as well.

[PyroChixRock]

Something weird is going on in this thread. It says it has a current post, but the last post is months ago.


Someone voted ;)

[nicko0]

which oxycons have these fractioners inside. http://www.sequal.com/industrial.php

[Headdi Retti's Glass Art Studio]

Nice Doug.... That makes it much easier to Match up to Oil less Compressors. I've got 3 Gast Oil less Compressors... Sweettt...

[nicko0]

anyone using a vaccuum swing adsoprption instead of psa?

[stillwaterglass]

Most of the studios here in Tallahassee have switched over to OxygenFrog systems. Unlimited, on-demand and affordable.

[istandalone24/7]

oxygen frog? care to share a link? quick google didn't bring up much.

[dustyg]

oxygen frog? care to share a link? quick google didn't bring up much.

Seems to be at oxygenfrog.com
Also, seems like he's the designer/maker of the system - see this post (http://www.talkglass.com/forum/showthread.php?53608-Video-Mirage-on-Oxygen-Concentrator-System&p=819009#post819009). If he is, though, I don't know why his recent posts read like he's a third-party/satisfied-customer instead of the maker of the system.

[PyroChixRock]

Most of the studios here in Tallahassee have switched over to OxygenFrog systems. Unlimited, on-demand and affordable.


Seems to be at oxygenfrog.com
Also, seems like he's the designer/maker of the system - see this post (http://www.talkglass.com/forum/showthread.php?53608-Video-Mirage-on-Oxygen-Concentrator-System&p=819009#post819009). If he is, though, I don't know why his recent posts read like he's a third-party/satisfied-customer instead of the maker of the system.

Dusty is right, it seems like you make this product. We have a vendor identification requirement here. Please check out this thread for more info, and hit me up with your info. (http://www.talkglass.com/forum/showthread.php?24912-Vendor-Access-Info)

[PhantomGlassGuy808]

I chose oxycons because it is so expensive to buy oxygen in Hawaii.
I pay $68 for a 125 tank and can run through it in two days.
I plan to get into the compressed O2 systems in a year or so.
I have a GTT scorpion and a Nortel Red Max.
I have two concentrators with another on the way.

[FifDeez]

Hands down yes its the ONLY future . especially if u want to profit.

[snoopdog6502]

I spent the money for 3 oxycons and a homefil and have bought just one $30 155cf (S tank) in all of 2015. I saved enough on oxygen to buy a Cheetah and a Phantom.

Thanks to a foot pedal the Phantom does not eat up tanks very quick. The cheetah will hog the O2 down.

[Cosmo]

Liquid has never been an option for me. The oxygen companies won't deliver where I live, and I have no way of picking up a tank myself. Regular tanks are what I was using, but the oxygen places are open the same hours that I work, so I can't get there. For me a homefill was an ideal solution. I'm planning on adding another one after the first of the year.

[Nomad]

Getting mine next week from Available Oxygen. I can't wait!
My airgas location went out of business. I got a quote from 2 companies about delivery. But it was like $200 deposit per tank $75 year lease each tank then $35 to fill a 337 SCF tank. So to get the truck to show up you had to pay $600-$700 the first time. Plus you have to fill out a credit application that tells all you suppliers and customers and person info on it. I decided to buy two oxycons for $475 each plus shipping from Available oxygen. It was a lot safer. I did not feel comfortable sharing all that info. Plus paying $650 first time then $100 every 2 weeks for 2 tanks sucks. I have had the delivery guys get pissed that the house was so nice and brake a slate step with there hand carts before also. So I don't like the delivery guy. Plus there truck is too big for my driveway most time. I have all the expensive gardening around the driveway they run over with the truck.
Oxycons are the only way to go. Plus there 20 psi 10 lpm units that use like 3.5 amps of electric. So both units use half the electric of my kiln. It is very affordable.

[Nomad]

but the good news is I got 337 scf tanks for only $20 exchange from airgas for 3 weeks before they closed... I have 2 days oxygen left now and another week unit the oxycons are ready. I am returning my tank for my deposit and part of my lease back next week.

[STROKER]

Hands down yes its the ONLY future . especially if u want to profit.

That is crazy talk. I have produced my own o2 on a large scale for many years and between maintenance, breaking and electric bills I was not saving much money most of the time. And since I melt big I was always taxing my systems.
I finally was given the option to get liquid and I will never look back. I can rage with several torches and never feel I'm underpowered.
My Dewar cost 114 to fill and I pay 450 year to lease dewar. Since each one is the equivalent of like 18-20 k tanks I get alot of use out of em.
Most dewar last me 4-5 weeks melting daily and I had one go for 7
I have no issues with homemade o2 but it's not free and certainly not the equivalent of liquid.

[Swim]

oxy cons become more and more of a problem as your operation gets bigger. thats pretty much what it comes down to.

[LooseSeal Baller]

That is crazy talk. I have produced my own o2 on a large scale for many years and between maintenance, breaking and electric bills I was not saving much money most of the time. And since I melt big I was always taxing my systems.
I finally was given the option to get liquid and I will never look back. I can rage with several torches and never feel I'm underpowered.
My Dewar cost 114 to fill and I pay 450 year to lease dewar. Since each one is the equivalent of like 18-20 k tanks I get alot of use out of em.
Most dewar last me 4-5 weeks melting daily and I had one go for 7
I have no issues with homemade o2 but it's not free and certainly not the equivalent of liquid.

Did you ever use medical machines linked together? or was it always industrial (pro-8, pro-4..ect)

i think the medical machines are supposed to be less maintenance. Although they do need to be in a controlled environment with relatively low humidity. I'm guessing all the coalescing filters and compressor maintenance is what makes the industrial method expensive. With the medical concentrators, the maintenance is low, and the filters only need changing once or twice a year(depending on conditions).

[STROKER]

Oh no barry I have went through 4 home fill units on my banked k tank set up. Concentrators never break just the part we need and the one that is built like a toy.
Home fills do not have a place in my heart. Lots of pains and down time associated with it.
My pro8 is 1000 times more reliable but once again certainly not free to use as so many imply when talking g about making their own o2

[STROKER]

I melt 6 days a week with a delta and no matter how well the home fills were working I was always struggling to have the o2 I needed.
If I had someone else over too, forget it 2 deltas going and the home fills don't stand a chance.

[LooseSeal Baller]

I agree the homefills don't go the distance.

I was thinking more along the lines of oil-less compressor to storage tank.

but i'm sure you already new that.

ever try? i was just thinking the maintenance would be a lot lower. Like you said the concentrators themselves last.

[Swim]

I have been on a three k-tank bank of tanks with one homefill for about three months. I Run it 24 hrs a day and we run a mirage and a phantom, sometimes a 40. my pressure stays between 1200 and 1500 on my bank. At this rate, if I ruin my homefill completely every three months, I fucking slaying the gas bill I was getting. homefills for the win, the maintenance is over rated and they are well worth it, even if you just turn them on and run them til they break. I have only turned my invacare off 3 times in three months.

[BurntHands]

I'm a painter, industrial/automotive. I already had a nice big air compressor/dryer/filter setup, and I set up an oxygen setup powered by psa similar to a pro8. My industrial oxygen setup runs my compressor way harder than any body shop stuff ever did. With the compressor running every few minutes and the kiln going my power bill jumps by about $5-600 every 2 months. Kiln's only like 1500w so that's really not much more than a buck a day, but the 50a compressor motor runs a lot. Ten bucks a day for 02 really isn't bad at all compared to tanks, but I could do the same with a liquid dewar, and it would have saved me thou$ands. I'd really like to get my hands on an old power meter to wire up before my compressor so I can really pinpoint just how much money I'm spending on just making air. Nevermind maintenance and wear and tear, just the power is expensive. Homefills/concentrators don't take much power but it seems like they break a lot... Still, a buck or 2 a day for power and a $500 unit every year or so sounds like a pretty good setup.

[LowTideGlass]

Burnthands, I'd be interested to see more of that compressor. So you are feeding oxy to the compressor from a separate oxy concentrator, or is the whole unit a concentrator and compressor in one package?

50a seems like overkill. How much volume are you supplying to the compressor?

I'd be surprised ( depending on the volume you need) if you couldn't get similar results with a much smaller compressor that only runs at around 5 amps.

[LooseSeal Baller]

Burnthands, I'd be interested to see more of that compressor. So you are feeding oxy to the compressor from a separate oxy concentrator, or is the whole unit a concentrator and compressor in one package?

50a seems like overkill. How much volume are you supplying to the compressor?

I'd be surprised ( depending on the volume you need) if you couldn't get similar results with a much smaller compressor that only runs at around 5 amps.

sounds like he's using the compressor to supply the sieve beds, not to boost the pressure of the oxygen. Basically it's like a giant concentrator, and just like a concentrator the pressure of the oxygen being produced is to low.

Industrial machines seem to be a waste imo.

with medical concentrators and a oil-less boosting compressor, you can get much better results imo.

The reason why the industrial method requires such a large compressor is because only a fraction of that (~1/5th) is being turned into oxygen. For example, if you needed 30 Liters per minute of oxygen to run your torch, then using the PSA method/sieve beds, the supply creating the oxygen would have to be at least 5 times more flow, to get the purity correct.

imo when creating oxygen smaller is better, and a bunch of small oxygen feeds have better purity than a larger single feed.

So with 4 ten liter per minute medical oxygen concentrators (dialed back to 8LPM each) the flow would be 32LPM. A small oil-less compressor that requires around 32LPM of "free air requirements"@ or above your working pressure.

[LowTideGlass]

Well said Barry, Thanks.

[BurntHands]

Yeah Barry nailed it, too soon to rep again.

Pressure going into the sieve beds stays above 100psi( feed air), and it goes to a 60g holding tank after. Takes 20-30 minutes to get the 60 gallon tank up to 60psi of oxygen. No pump or compressor between the concentrator unit and the holding tank, it just uses the force of the feed air. When the nitrogen blows out it makes a 1 second blast of 100psi air though, kind of annoying.... My air freeze dryer does a quick blowoff every hour or so too. Psssahht!
I wondered why these setups weren't more popular, but they just need too much air.