Any lawyers in the house?

[PyroChixRock]

I need some help. I made a VW gear shift knob and I'm geting sued for it. Seems simple if I comply and pay the 25% they are asking, but the agreement they want me to sign doesn't protect me from getting sued after I pay. I know we've got a few people running around here, could someone possibly read this thing for me?

[Satori]

That's so lame...what does VW care if you're selling shit that's free advertising for them. Not like someone who doesn't own a VW would buy it anyway. Sorry I can't really help misha...wish I knew something about these kinds of things. Still pisses me off though!

[Chris Carlson]

the VW folks are ruthless. they made everyone making anything to do with VW aftermarket parts remove their logo. even catalogs that featured pictures of actual VW's had the logos blacked out on the cars. they suck, sorry. i love old vdubs. i hate vw.

[Anakin's Glass Eye]

Can you provide a little more detail. I have some business law edumacation and loads of real world smarts that may help. Who is suing you? What fer? Is it a trademark infringement thing or a product liability thing or somethin else?

Brad

[PyroChixRock]

yeah...um, how to summarize...

This guy emailed me wanting to buy a gear shift knob like the one I had pictured (vw). I said ok and took his payment intending to make him a blue one, but we were backed up about 3-4 months so I sent him the same one in the picture, plus a free one for lagging. I can't remember if the free one was VW 100% but I think it was, one that we had made but weren't happy enough with to sell. So we’re counting that as a VW one and giving himn the benefit of the doubt.

I know for sure I've only made 3 VW logo knobs, ever. One I sold to him, one I broke, and the last one I gave to him for free.

He's demanding 25% of the $124.85 I made off the knob and any others...but I have no others. Problem is, I didn't even remember selling that one to him in the first place. It sat on my shelf for couple years, and then went to him so I spaced it, and initially told him he was mistaken that I'd never sold any, ever. Well, I have, to his investigator apparently! I found all the records of the sale, so I’m hoping that’s enough proof that I didn’t make or sell any others now that it seems I’ve gone and lied to him on accident.

So Unipenta found this http://vwsucksass.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2 and if you read this guy’s story, it basically ends that the guy who is threatening me isn’t being hired by VW!! Is he even authorized to sue me? It all seemed so sketchy to me in the first place because, I’m getting this information via EMAIL and not certified mail, plus the guy was exchanging nasty emails to me…do lawyers really do that? :lol So he’s a real law firm, but not hired by VW.

My main question is, if I comply and pay him the freaking $31.21 can he turn around and sue me after? Anakin if you want to see the pdf he sent me send me your email and I’ll fwd it.

[Mr. Wonka]

Usually a company will send you a "cease and desist" order via certified mail from their attorney's office (as a first resort). If you continue to sell the product, then you should get another certified letter stating that they intend to take you to court, and how much $$ they are looking to get.

Keep all of your e-mails, and if this attorney does not work for VW, then he can be brought up on charges for extortion.

That's the way I understand how it works, but I would definitely check with an attorney about it.

[Greymatter Glass]

Misha, no legitimate lawyer will A)threaten to sue you, they just do it. B) Communicate such threats by email. C) act in anything other than an entirely professional manner when dealing with such matters.

I'm not a lawyer, but I'm familiar wityh law and I've spent more than my fair share of time in courts and legal offices filling out paperwork and trying not to get sued.

The best thing to do would be hire a local lawyer and have the paperwork sent to said lawyer.

If there'e nothing sent by certified mail then no matter what dude says nothing was ever sent. Email and regular non certifed/registered mail is NOT a proper way to conduct legal business.


Before you loose any sleep over it consider that it's probably a guy scamming you, over $30 and change.

No court anywhere in the US would even hear him out over $30.

Also, since the knobs were one-of-a-kind art objects and not actual reproductions of the VW logo it would probably be pretty shaky ground to base a suit on in the first place.

...

When I was threatened w/ a lawsuit by the lady who made the original hamster dance she did so herself, via email, and CC'd her lawyer after the fact.

My first reply was a basic summary of what I thought of her demands....

later on things devolved into me telling her I was going to rape her pet gerbil if she ever emailed me again....


the whole thing wound up getting her in trouble with her lawyer and her husband leaving her because *someone* figured out her email address and let her husband know she was sleeping with her lawyer...or something like that.... as I wasn't involved I don't know all the details.

...you can read the first round email here: http://www.greymatter.org/lawsuit.html

I got a pro-bono lawyer to represent me if it went to trial, but it never did. She got spanked hard. like I said... someone was reading her email...her lawyer didnt like her making legal threats...made his job harder. So I heard.

....


Also, if you for some reason did pay him the money he's asking for then yes, it would be considered accepting liability / fault and would open you up to future suits. maybe. IANAL.

But, is he even a lawyer himself or just some scam artist.

If you want you can email me the file he sent you.... it mike say something I can pick out....

doug@abqglass dot com


-Doug

[rumplephorskin]

Damn that shit is crazy!! You may actually be able to turn the tables on this guy. There is a chance that his behavior may fall under a violation of federal law; namely the Ricoh act. which is the same law that was put on the books to stop mobsters from interfering in the business of others.

[Greymatter Glass]

In my case I was told that baseless legal threatening is illegal and considered harrasment. You can counter sue for mental damges, angush, lost time, and emotional stress. Since money is involved there';s also the extorsion angle

oh and not to twist titties here....
but...

Ricoh makes printers and office equipment.

RICO is the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act of 1970, it doesn't really apply here. http://www.ricoact.com/

[rumplephorskin]

Ricoh makes printers and office equioment.

HAHAHA MY bad on the spelling. Nothing like having your titties twisted by a ninja LOL.

[borealisglass]

tee hee

dang....yea screw him....he's a fraud print those emails!

[smutboy420]

phishing scam is what that is. Don't sign anything and don't give him any more info then he already may have. if hes going to sue you for $30 let him waist his time. the constitution says any one is entitled to regress for damages over $20 But hee hee $20 was a lot of $ in 1770's But if he still wants to work for his $30 let him. let him do all the leg work too. Don't do that part for him. let him find you info and any thing else if he wants his $30 so bad.
I know some one that got sued from metalica during that whole napster thing. But he got fucked because he responded in the first place to a questioner form they wanted him to fill out. threating legal action. But asking to provide details on his downloading habits. If he had filled it out as joe blow from mars he would of been ok.

This guy can't prove you made this marble he can't prove you sold it to him maybe it was matt who sold it. whoes to say it was a volks wagon logo? it could of been a monogrammed shifter for some guy named Victor Wilson.

[PyroChixRock]

You know what's fucked about all this...I never even had those advertised for sale. They were posted on my gallery, and he came to me asking him to make him one! Talk about entrapment.

I'll let you know what happens. The lawyer I talked to today said it seemed pretty cut and dry, and hopefully it will go away without having to spend any money. She's going to write a letter for me as a favor. The guy I linked you to before from the vwsucksass forum, I called him and he told me how I might be able to get a pro-bono lawyer, so I'll try to do that to have one on hand in case I do have to go to court. Blah blah blah...what a pain in the ass!

[Anakin's Glass Eye]

My guess is that there's not much that is legit with this guys "threats." If this were a legit case being pursued by VW the certainly would have addressed it in a more professional manner at the least. You would have been contacted in writing by a real lawyer with a real license to practice, etc., etc. I could possibly understand if their first method of contact was a cease and desist order via email - maybe. It just does not make sense that anyone would come after you for an activity which you are not currently engaged in, you had not advertised, was extremely limited in scope/quantity, etc., etc. If you were currently mass producing shift nobs with the VW logo and you were advertising them and selling them then I would see a cause for action. But in this case, it just seems like a silly case of harasment on this guys part.

[PyroChixRock]

They didn't write me a cease and desist letter, it was a straight up demands letter. And no I didn't offer them for sale, he came to me. The first time he emailed me was March 03, 2005, and I did not reply. Then he emailed me on May 10, 2005 and I replied and sold him a knob. His "investigator" that is...

Why would they even bother? It took me 4 months to send his order, because shit there's only 2 of us. How many of these things could he possibly think we could make! What a waste of time.

[buzz]

Hey Misha
What comes around goes around you should Give us his Email so we could spam him with threatening Emails I would be more then happy to vent some anger on the prick.
Buzz

[PyroChixRock]

Well hey there, Buzz! Glad you figured the place out. We'll see what happens with him, i don't need any trouble so it's going to be up to the lawyer to decide what to do. Thanks though!

[buzz]

Yeah I know Just thought it would be fun. I believe its a bunch of B.S. it was handmade it was not the exact replica of their logo, that you copied and glued on.
Buzz
P.S
Thanks for helping last night sometimes this computer stuff makes me feel stupid. :bangHead:

[4everinmotion]

The whole thing sounds like bullshit to me. How desperate does a lawyer have to be to go after $31.50 considering he'll take a third and his client will take 2 thirds. Let's see thats roughly $10.40 for the lawyer. Doesn't make sense. I'd just keep the e-mails for my records and and ignore him.

[kruger]

kinda related to this topic....but if you use a dichro chip of a copyrighted image are you putting yourself out to be sued? for instance if you make a jimi hendrix mib....could the record label lawyers come after you? what are the paramaters of artistic freedom/expression?

[PyroChixRock]

I'm 99% sure that Dichroic Alchemy has permission to use the ones he uses, I have no idea about any other companies that do images.

Who knows where that stands? I bet Jay of DA would know. Since we're taking a licensed product and sticking it in another product, seems we'd be covered...but then again we don't have permission to sell them so who knows! Ack, that could get messy!

[Mr. Wonka]

Kruger- if it's an EXACT image or a trademarked logo (such as VW, Harley Davidson, etc.) then yes, you can get sued. If you're using an original design or a rendition of a photo / logo / etc., then you should be safe.

[Julian]

I'm certain it's complete bullshit.
As mentioned previously, anything like that would come certified mail.
Email can be forged too easily, and you can't really tell if the person got it, so it is not ever used for legal notices.
Tell the guy to mega fuck off.

[PyroChixRock]

Hand drawn interpretation of the VW logo, melted into a piece of glass.

If these guys are going after people for single incidents and ART, are they going after painters for painting the VW logo and then selling it? As far as I know I never broke any laws. I created ART, not finished product. I offer no mounting gear, no attachment to put this piece of glass on your car, no instructions on how to do it, nothing. What’s next, tracking down graffiti artists for designing murals with their custom VW rendered in it?

[Julian]

Yeah... did Andy Warhol license the likeness of Cambells Soup?

[PyroChixRock]

no shit, I'll keep that in mind..

[Mr. Wonka]

Companies mainly go after manufacturers- nobody will bust your chops about a single piece of ANYTHING. BUT- if you were mass producing something with a logo on it and distributing them, the company will want a percentage of the sales, in which you would have to get a licence / agreement from that company.

[jazz]

what a fucking country
this thing is prob as said total BS but the fact that it is even imaginable for some shit like this to happen is crazy
it is like the auto shop at school would like to get donated working cars, fix em and sell em for some funding for the school
but becuz of the fucking liability shit we cant...
what a place...
also if he does keep giving you spam emails i have a linux computer with which i can send him like 500 emails at once all saying the same thing
lol
just for laughs
--jazz

[cheng076]

Misha,

I believe you'll find this whole affair to be a phishing scam in the end. I'll bet further that this person sends out these things to all sorts of businesses in the hopes that an office person will hand it up no questions asked.
A layyer makes $100.00 to $150 per hour minimum, plus charges for paperwork time, etc. just to recover $30.00. Makes no sence.
Some things to mention; 1. All the above about legal dealings via email are true. 2. If VW was interested they would have delt through registered paper with their logo prominently displayed. 3. VW is not going to even notice something this small when it costs thousands of dollars to crank out the smallest something from their legal departments. 4. VW has their own huge legal department and would not go out of house if for no other reason than to keep it quiet. Lastly, there is an outfit called Prepaid Legal that costs like $200.00 per year that will handle stuff like this at any time free as well as do a yearly will/testament, and provide other legal services for this yearly fee. Check it out.
PJ

[gotglass?]

i believe DA has a liscense for those images......

[Greymatter Glass]

yep yep, prepaid legal is a good way to go....

it's gonna asplode in the US.

[wisco lala]

just me .02 here kruger but if your really looking for artistic freedom wouldn't you just steer clear of any images that you didn't personally create? It's kinda like printing t-shirts with any company but your own. it's technically illegal. so cover your ass and just don't do it. Be true to your own vision.
flame on!
lala

[Turning Point Glass]

You should just ignore this guy. Chances are he'll just go away. If not and he files suit, you'll still have plenty of time to spend money on an attorney then. It's not like you'd be on the hook for any more money later than now since you've only made two knobs and he has both. Whatever you do don't provide him any personal information.

[Mr. Wonka]

Let me elaborate on my last post: If you are using a dichro image (for instance) of the VW logo, and the company that is selling it is licensed to produce them, then you’re free to use them in your work and sell them without any repercussion.

If you make millies of characters from Disney, you could get in trouble for using and marketing those items. Why? Because you’re making a profit off of somebody else’s design… and in this case, Disney is not getting their cut.

You can’t copy somebody’s trademarked logo / character(s) / etc. and get away with not paying royalties because you call it “art”. While the item might be artistic in your view, it’s still copyright infringement by the letter of the law.

Regarding graffiti- Aside from local laws about vandalism or defacing property, you wouldn’t get in trouble with VW for using their logo… it’s not a product that is being sold or marketed.

BTW- I contacted Warner Brothers several years ago and inquired about using the “Wonka” logo (from the original movie) on a sign for my store. While I was free to use the name “Wonka”, the logo itself was trademarked and I was denied permission to use it.



EDIT:
One more thing- When I was in contact with the legal representatives from Warner Bros, I asked them about the “Golden Tickets” that I use for AGI. I was told that it was okay because a) they were not exact replicas, and b) the tickets themselves, as an item, were not being sold for profit.

[Greymatter Glass]

C) does WB even own the copyright to the original book?

[Mr. Wonka]

No, they don't- the book is property of the Dahl Estate. WB owns the rights to all of the movie trademarks, and Nestle owns the rights to the "Wonka" name to produce candy. I've been in touch with all of them before I gave up on trying to use the logo for my business.

[steven p selchow]

Interesting...I did an art show in the back yard of Harley Davidson, Milwaukee. I had some DA images of the bar and shield, which of course are trademarks of HD. One lady bought a pr. of earrings and a pendant, then informed me her son works for Harley Davidson and it would make a nice present. I thought about it, but I was under the impression that a license aggrement had been in place for that product, and i'm not making a mass produced piece, but I still cringed at the thought it would be brought to the attention of Willie G. Davidson himself. So I'll try to figure if I'm in violation of any suit myself.

[phab]

Hand drawn interpretation of the VW logo, melted into a piece of glass.

If these guys are going after people for single incidents and ART, are they going after painters for painting the VW logo and then selling it? As far as I know I never broke any laws. I created ART, not finished product. I offer no mounting gear, no attachment to put this piece of glass on your car, no instructions on how to do it, nothing. What’s next, tracking down graffiti artists for designing murals with their custom VW rendered in it?

...doesnt sound to me like you need a laywer.

unless you wanted to sue this dood who probably doesnt have any money.
i think you have a winning argument there misha

[Kalera]

I think the guy is straight-up scamming you. The letter from your lawyer should end any further communication from him.

If he's actually legally associated with VW in any way (which I seriously doubt) then you have a great case for solicitation; it is ILLEGAL to solicit anyone to do an illegal act. You were not offering your VW knob for sale; he solicited you. If he turns out to actually be associated with VW his ass should be canned because he's opening them up for all kinds of liability through his actions.

[PyroChixRock]

As my lawyer predicted, I got a letter in the mail. However, it is not even certified! Am I supposed to take this seriously, heh? I'll wait to send the letter she wrote, and let her know it wasn't certified first in case she thinks I should just ignore it at this point.

[CliffsideGlassworks]

http://boingboing.net/ just had up another artist being Bugged by VW maybe contact them see what their deal was...

http://www.boingboing.net/2006/01/12/vw_presses_ridiculou.html

Thursday, January 12, 2006
VW presses ridiculous copyright claim against artist
Web 20040423143939 Http: Www.Dsart.Com (http://Www.Dsart.Com) Images Vwbug Thomas Claburn says: "In a note sent to David Farber's Interesting People mailing list, webmaster Judy Decker of Ohio-based art education site Incredible Art Department calls attention to the plight of visual artist Don Stewart.

Stewart drew this picture (also shown here) of a VW Bug, which he was forced to remove under threat of litigation. He requests that those concerned about VW's overreaching copyright claims write company CEO Frank Witter to complain."

[Destrukt]

This sounds more like a shakedown from a pretender, than VW. Just ignore it. Tell them that the logos are all AM logos and it not your fault if he held it upside down.

[Dom]

Im sure she did ignore it, since it was over 4 years ago.

[menty666]

On one hand, I totally think we need expirations on threads. On the other, sometimes it's nice to have threads that live forever since it's better than starting 20 threads on H2O torches, for example.

I wonder if it can be made a thread creation option.

[Pogo]

^I agree... been seein' lots of old-ass threads poppin' up pointlessly.

Made a Request Box post to clean this place up. Old thread alleviation(Locking\expiring) thread conversation to go here (http://www.talkglass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33930), let's fix this thing.

[bzglass]

Actually this information is quite relative, or pertinent to my current inquiry. ( like many other threads, The info is still of value; no need to loose them in the wash) Why would you want to lock it or delete it?

I am currently working on a run of VW shifter knobs. So I was wondering, if anybody had ever made them, and had any problems after making them.

What finally happened in this situation, and if we use dichro images are we liable for copyright infringement? Or any other liability?

[gotglass?]

With the dichro images ...unless you etch it yourself the distributor probably has paid the necessary licensing fees to avoid such a situation.

[Chris Juedemann]

I forgot about Doug and the Hamster Dance lady intrigue. That is gold.

Chris

[J Howard]

no expiring threads.... just tease em' for bringing it up! every now and then something good pops back up, or is good for a laugh

[PyroChixRock]

I know old threads coming back can be annoying but i think we should still leave them around for info. once a year the staff goes through and checks every subforum for irrelevant threads, and we move or trash them accordingly.

as far as how this turned out, the guy had nothing, it was a phishing scam. not only that but he tried to trap me into it by soliciting me and the sale.

[J Howard]

i hope you cleaned your litter box and sent him the byproduct

[Pogo]

I'm not for deletion or locking, I suggested a prompt just to say "Hey do you know this thread is ancient?"...

Old threads are chuck full of useful information....

[Dragonharper]

How about a way to include the date of the original post after the OP's name like over at LE? A popup would be a help too, but the date would be a good start.

[bzglass]

as far as how this turned out, the guy had nothing, it was a phishing scam. not only that but he tried to trap me into it by soliciting me and the sale.

Thanks Misha for the info. That must have really sucked for you, going through all that crap. I am glad it worked out for you in the end.