so i want to start working with boro.

[The Lorax]

Ok lets see. :stare:
Currently i work with soft glass... i have been doing so since about september, and for quite sometime i have wanted to work with glass. a few months later, i fully understand that boro is what i want to work with.. yet since not many colleges have the chance to work with boro, i am keeping my aprenticeship goin as a soft glass apprentice and i know it would be foolish to toss this oppertunity. :stubborn:

so, i plan to work with soft glass and go onto college as do so.

but i have no idea about how to start with boro really.
i asked around and have came to the conclusion that i should get these things:

1. a phantom http://www.glasstorchtech.com/torches.html

2. a paragon 240 kiln http://www.clay-king.com/itempf240.html

4. tools (how close are they as being the same as softglass tools?)

3. a vent system ( i have one sitting around for a stove... couldn't i use this?)

is there anymore information for a noob?

i am trying to do this all under about 3,000$

also, do you think this is

[somberbear]

no stove vent ... the tools are about the same... but your still got alot of tool cost ... and then probably say 300 in color , silver , gold , and about 300+ in clear stock.... you could probably use a smaller kiln , and your going to need oxy tanks , foot pedels (smut boy makes good ones) , etc etc etc..... hoses regulators , buckets

as for off hand blowing the tools are normaly smaller for lampworking but i have seen a couple people using full scale hot shop tools , its just easier consitering scale for the smaller tools...

as for soft glass lampworking the tools are the same...

study up on venting ... its a very important part
and half the time its stuck some wehre where your not going to want to upgrade it often

[The Lorax]

interesting, so on a estamite how much would tools/silver/gold/color/clear/ foot pedels (control the size of the flame im guessing)/ and the extra stuff be... another grand? also, since there isn't anywhere to gather with boro such as soft glass(right?)... how do you cover your work with a clear?
edit: also, i have access to a machine shop.. in this shop i have some stainless steal (not too much but some), steal, and some aluminum... any tools i could make myself rather than blowin the etra $?
thanks for the help :)

[Cosmo]

I'm not trying to take anything away from somberbear, but I think he's looking at more of a high end setup.

Personally I don't think you need foot pedals. They are nice to have, but you don't need them. Also, while a Phantom is a great torch, you don't need one that expensive. A Bethlehem Barracuda is roughly the same size (though not as hot) and is about $350-450 cheaper.

What kind of torch are you working on now? I'm working on a Nortel MidRange and I can do solid boro marbles up to 2" on it.

I always recommend people to buy the biggest kiln they can afford, because that's not something that is an easy upgrade. But, no, you don't need one that big. What kind of kiln are you using with soft glass? Any kiln that will reach 1200 degrees without burning out will be fine for boro.

What kind of boro work do you want to do? Solid? Blown? Both? If it were me, I'd buy a pound or two of clear 10mm boro and just mess around with it to get the feel of it. You'll end up throwing a lot of it out, and I'd rather throw away cheap clear than $50/pound color.

For your budget of $3000, I think you can get everything you need and still have plenty of money left over for glass...

[rumplephorskin]

I might be willing to sell my barracuda once my mirage shows up

[The Lorax]

the torch i have been working with looks like this one at the hot shop http://www.artglass1.com/torch/Red-Max-lg.jpg


also... what do the footpedals do? just make it so you don't need to use your hands to change the flame right?.. i think i could go with out one of those.

as for the kiln, wouldn't i just want a big one and use it for as long as possible, im afraid the smaller one would be limiting in the future.

as for what kind of boro i want to work with, i honestly don't know. I just want DETAIL in my work, unlike soft glass where its just frit mostly...

and for the torch, a member who recommeneded this site told me the phantom would be a good choice, if i have the money why limit myself.. right?

the money isn't THAT big of a problem, mostly because its all coming free from stocks.

[alacrity024]

i got into the whole thing.. vent, color, rod & tube, torch (granted it's a National 6B :rolleyes ) gasses, tools, everything except a kiln... for...... let's see... $750.. obviously if you're looking to include a kiln and a better torch, your costs will increase... but yeah..

[The Lorax]

750, not too shabby.

[smutboy420]

That redmax torch Is a pretty good torch for the $ the premix top fire is prefered for boro and not soft glass but the top with the surface mix can be used for soft or boro.
#1 you need a torch
#2 a kiln
#3 some tools.(tools can be as basic as a set of needle nose pliers,2x3 ghraphite paddel and a 1/4 inch round graphite rod and a set of holding fingers. other tools you can get on an on the need basis.)
#4 some clear rod and some tubeing.
#5 ventalation

Things like foot pedals and the like are more a luxurly type item to make your work go faster and to save o2 and gas. Right now its better to focus on skill then speed. Don't get me wrong I would love to sell you a pedal but when you are ready for one tho. :-) Thanks for the plug tho bear. (I think somberbear is just vicariously thinking of the dream set up lol.)

[somberbear]

Before i would drop that cash i would look at your goals .... see where your headed that would help out in gear selection a ton. As well you dont have to work boro on a torch you can work soft glass as well , and just use the same techs adjusted for differnces in the glass. then in the hot shop combine these elements. the problem is buying compatable glass for what the hot shop is using..

the foot pedel operates outter fire or larger fire ... that way you dont have to re adjust knobs.... very good on two stage torchs and over under... for the first few months youll just be learning your torch and it isnt a huge need but frankly i cant work with out my foot pedel now it just incresed my speed so much the money for it paled... mk knight bullet burner... a little on the small size but a good torch im told. check to see if you can pick up a torch used... till you decide your direction/need

eye wear, didinyums are pritty standard... but if you have the cash to spring and or wear prescrpts some higher end glasses would be a good idea

i would say get a kiln like Paragon F-130 Elite it should last a good long while there are many other companys that offer kilns and something like that would do me for a while...

as for torch , a redmax , a phantom is top of the line , but i would use the lynx for a while , but the advantage of a gtt is if you find out you dont want to work any more there fairly easy to sell off agian witha good resale value. also remeber regulators and hose and an apropreate wrench ,

If you have never gotten oxy before , then you might have to put a depost on a lease... plus the lease fee , then the money for the full tank youll be carting off ... mine was 150 , 50 buck lease , and 15 bucks for the cylinder .... i got a much better deal now but it can happen... then you also have to pick up a propane grill tank.

also sence your new to a "torch" see if you have a little extra money for a teacher to atleast get you on the ropes... this will save you alot of agrivation...

as well pick up a copy of contemp lampworking... 60 bucks
videos like Essentail lampworking can help, and dichroic alchemys video if you wanna play with dichro. subscribe to some mags at some point ... the flow , glass line...

after those things ... graphite reamer , "push" if thats what your going for , reamers of differnce sizes helps , i use round reamer but alot like octaginal... 10-50 bucks , paddels , graphite pad... you can machine graphite but you gotta put a vacume up becouse graphite is a carcnigen like real bad... oh yea and a marble rounder

you can pritty much make all your tools in a machine shop but alot of it is just stock graphite rod and plate... check my gallery for what my tools look like...

other tools , tweesers get a good solid pair 6-12 or a few... , a score knife , grabbers (claws, holding fingers)

Silver and gold are fairly cheap and most places carry them gold is very espensive though..gold and silver coin normal work though...

i would say get sample packs of color from a few companys... momka , abes sample i hope are still free , north star and Glass alchemy ... most can be had at sales easy.. this will give you a good palet to play with as well as read all the liturature that comes with them it helps a ton especial GAs

like i know Vapor glass (erik) right now has a great sale on momka , and GA normaly has a good sale after valintines day.

clear lots of clear... 10 mils alright 4m is a good idea... see if you can get an assortment of common tube from generations glass... and or UST ...

3 grand should take care of all that...

then agian you could pick up and get a cheaper system ... and figure out where you wanna go and

and spend money on lessons and or learning material...

just some of my thoughts on this

peace
rob

[The Lorax]

if the GTT has a lifetime warenty why not go with that torch? Is the only reason you say go with the redmax is to save money? If it has a lifetime warenty, and it has more potentential, i don't see why not go with it..?

next, the 130 seems pretty nice, but in the long run i want to focuse on pipes and sometimes they are pretty big... wouldn't i want to lean onto the side of the 240 just so i have the extra space? or is it not enough to be worth it? And honestly how many kilns do you go through in your experiance.. i'd assume someone should only need to be 1 or 2 in their life.

and i assuming the tools are all mostly graphite? why? why not steel(rust?)?

thanks again for all the help :)

[Cosmo]

Nobody is saying not to get a Phantom. They are really nice, and if I could find one I'd buy one myself. In fact, I've had the money for one sitting in my account for about 6 months waiting to find one for sale. I can't find anyone who has one.

Buy the biggest kiln you can. It's not something that's going to wear out, so you'll probably never need to replace it.

Graphite tools dissipate heat faster than steel, so they work better for touching to hot glass. Plus, they hold up to heat much better than steel.

[somberbear]

if the GTT has a lifetime warenty why not go with that torch? Is the only reason you say go with the redmax is to save money? If it has a lifetime warenty, and it has more potentential, i don't see why not go with it..?

never said not to ... get the gtt .. just giving you options


next, the 130 seems pretty nice, but in the long run i want to focuse on pipes and sometimes they are pretty big... wouldn't i want to lean onto the side of the 240 just so i have the extra space? or is it not enough to be worth it? And honestly how many kilns do you go through in your experiance.. i'd assume someone should only need to be 1 or 2 in their life.

Yes but by the time you normaly get to this stage you will probably know what type of kiln you will need.. pipes for a while will be able to fit in here easy... it should serve you for years... as well this will probably become a swap oven if its to small and a larger ring kiln used for much larger asymbly and holding guarging and anealing... till you need one of those this one should do the trick. also this allows you to fill up a garage kiln while using the other oven to swap out componites to put togeather.. and one can ramp down while you fill the other one... which some times is hard to do.



and i assuming the tools are all mostly graphite? why? why not steel(rust?)?

becouse it can stand heat and stay slick to the glass letting it flow over easy,, when most steel and metals are exposted to long heat they start getting destoryed and stick to the glass , coatings like bees wax help but can add imputritys to the work. some metal tools are used and somepeople make metal tools but graphite is a very good substance for its heat ability. the other problem i have with metal is chilling.. it sucks the heat out so quicky its hard to do some stuff.. graphite personaly is good stuff.



thanks again for all the help :)


any time just trying to help out. there are millions of ways to work glass , so finding what you want is hard... and yes do boro if your doing pipes.

good luck
rob

[The Lorax]

very awesome help, good point with the kiln.. i am def. gonna go with the 130... and great thought that i could still use it if i got a bigger one along the road. as for torch, i think i'll go with the GTT...but a few more things i have to ask:


$1,280 is the going price for this kiln since its right off the paragon webpage right ? http://www.paragonweb.com/F130.cfm

as for the torch... i can't seem to figure out what studs are, whats the differance between the 4 and 2 aside from the amount? haha

and last off... just because i can't understand why and the curosity is killing me...if i make something in softglass such as a paperweight... i will gather some clear, get some frit color, and then regather and i got a paperweight.

when i look at actionshots of boro setups, i see people holding stuff off glass tubes rather than metal... i just don't really get how you regather (if u even do) ... can someone explain the approach of boro compared to soft glass? just so i can have more of a understanding? :)

[borealisglass]

You may want to get something non flammable to line the top of your station with...we use fiber board, just because we are to cheap to get stainless. You for sure will want a graphite paddle and/or pad. You will also wanna get some kevlar gloves for the kiln, unless you wanna hurt yourself. Make sure your vents are good, hook up some rod and maybe some seconds color just to play with....nothing super bright though...you'll get frustrated. Caramel, ruby, amber/purple and cobalt are good for starting.

When we moved up here we set up a two station set up for $5,000 including glass and tools...so you can for sure take this on no prob.

K that's my two cents!

[rumplephorskin]

Where are you located??? maybe we can help you find a teacher.

[The Lorax]

MA about 45 minutes north of boston. i know salem state (close by) does boro, i plan to go to franklin pierce as a college though.

[rumplephorskin]

talk to nicksglassdood he is a good guy and up in your area. he can probably point you in the right direction if he doesnt help you out himself

[mistahead]

my two cents would be.... order your phantom now!! start looking for a good class or someone in your area who will give you one on one. get your paragon headed your way. then when you know what you need after your lessons get the rest!! so if ya got the cash for sure get the GTT imho and get the freakin lessons and pray you hook up with good peeps and coming here was definetly a damn good start!! Good luck

[The Lorax]

are there any other ways to learn other than lessons that is efficient? such as a book, or movie im already taking soft glass lessons... mostly, learning how to get vessle shapes down.... these lessons should prepare me in some way right?.. i would assume after workin with soft glass, from what i've read about boro it shouldn't be a hard transition... or are the boro lessons typically more focused on coloring than shapes?

[john madden]

dont forget your eyes buddy. i know somer bear mentioned didinyums, theyll run you almost $100 but you probably gonna want something better, most people will probably tell you the same thing, that sodium glare is a bitch, impossible to work without protection. aura lens are preffered and the model i think most suited for larger boro and fuming is the AGW 286 which runs about $300. just something to concider.

[john madden]

hey im in somers ct im not sure how far that is from you, its right near springfield. your more that welcome to come down if you want, i can show you a few things for sure.

[JTGlass]

Sup Lorax.
IF your considering the paragon, I would highly suggest checking out the aim kilns. You can get the aim 99LS/d with digital controller for around 675.00 delivered(depending on your shipping location) through Victorian Art Glass. I just bought one for myself. For the price of the paragon your looking at you should check out living glass works kilns. For a few bucks more you could buy the Orion which is basically a 240V kiln that is like the cadalac versioon of the 99LS/d. It comes with the BEST digital controller available, has more room, bigger bead door, and a mess of other upgrades compared to the 99LS/d. Marcel Brawn dewsigns the living glassworks kilns for AIM based on the aim gullotine styled doors.

I live in western massachusetts right near springfield approximatley 2 hours west of boston, and have been blowing with borosilicate for 12 years. IF your interested in lessons, hit me up. I am a good teacher and I dont hold people back.


peace,
-jason

[BlueDevil]

I agree with Jason here.. The Aim kilns are great and and a great price for what ya get. Living Glasswork is the best in my opinion as well and worth the extra loot over the regular Aim kilns. Get the GTT (when ya find one...lol) Best $ i have spent in the 3 years I have been at it (3rd torch i bought). I bought all my supplies when i started and taught myself from trying trying trying... Then I met others that worked boro and kept trying trying trying... Ya don't have to over annalize it... Be Safe, have fun and follow your inspiratin.

Lee
www.glasspipes.org/bluedevilglass

[The Lorax]

I decided the F130 rather than the F240 actually... but from what you know the aim kilns are better? Or just a cheaper deal? I just looked at the aim 99ls and from what i seem i think i like the shape/setup of the F130. I'll look into it more in a bit.

[alacrity024]

MA about 45 minutes north of boston. i know salem state (close by) does boro, i plan to go to franklin pierce as a college though.



franklin pierce in Rindge, NH?


<-- FPC alumni

[The Lorax]

yea fpc, i went there and the campus was amazing.

[alacrity024]

awesome dude. the campus at pierce is nice, but it sucks for a lot of people because it's so far away from a bigger city. make sure you have a car and can get a place to keep it parked. i live 30 minutes away from pierce and have a small torch rig setup in my garage. anytime you want to chill, collaborate, whatever, drop me a line..

[The Lorax]

very cool, since theres no boro stuff at fpc how did you get started?

[alacrity024]

i just bought a torch kit, some tube, rod and color and started messing around. i asked a couple questions here and bought the two-volume set of Contemporary Lampworking.. a lot of the stuff from offhand comes into play.. mainly just the feel for molten glass.

so far i can make shitty spoons, shitty sidecars and shitty marbles, heh.. i'm just plugging along though. in three days i've made pretty huge progress..

[The Lorax]

any pictures of your work?

[alacrity024]

hahaha yeah a couple pics but nothing worth posting. my digital camera batteries are fucked, too.. they're like three years old and they won't hold a charge for more than one flash...

[JTGlass]

The aim has a much better bead door system for garaging your work while you work.

[The Lorax]

yea, garaging would be rather important... which site is close to MA that has good deals?.. since shipping could cost a lot i guess.

[alacrity024]

yea, garaging would be rather important... which site is close to MA that has good deals?.. since shipping could cost a lot i guess.

i'm without a kiln right now.. rather than spending upwards of $500 on one, i'm contemplating building one for myself.....

[nickglassdood]

yo i got bench space for rent at my shop and can do some hourly lessons and rent out time after and there are like 8 other lampworkers here between 2 shopd and a bunch do lessons gimmie an email natyhead@aol.com

here is my shop
http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewImage&friendID=4256708&imageID=391547897&Mytoken=B50776C3-8CD8-E2B6-56F866730A88056177493773

[nickglassdood]

duh forgot to say the shop is just north of boston in somerville

[The Lorax]

nice to know nickglass, i will keep that in mind.

[The Lorax]

haha old thread, thanks for the rep swampy.. almost forgot bout this thread

[Swampy]

yes man, look how far you've come since then