Fuming Metals

[Ronin]

I know everyone has used the standard metals like silver, gold, and copper... but has anyone experimented with the other transitional metals, i.e. titanium, zinc, nickel, cadmium, cobalt, etc.? and if so, what were the results?

I noticed that gold, copper, nickel, palladium, and cobalt all evaporate within a couple hundred degrees of each other (between 5100 and 5300 Fahrenheit) so they should produce some effect. I've got some copper, some nickel, and some palladium on the way to try and see what happens, and pure cobalt seems difficult to find, so I'm going to try them and find out for myself, but if anyone has any knowledge on the subject it would be greatly appreciated.

[l33t:weasel]

don't die, i think some of that shit will fume pretty toxic.

[Gold Fire Glass]

don't die, i think some of that shit will fume pretty toxic.
^^^^ Be Careful !!!!! Some of that stuff is VERY TOXIC . It will kill you right quick !
On a side note if you don't die I'm sure it will cause some serious neurological damage for later in life :drool:

[Icarus]

I would definitely do some research into this before you go and do it. Some of these metals off gas some nasty stuff.

This book is a good place to start:
Nature's Building Blocks: An A-Z Guide to the Elements (http://www.amazon.com/Natures-Building-Blocks--Z-Elements/dp/0198503407/ref=sr_1_8?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1308659324&sr=1-8)

After reading this entire book, there is one element that I have my eye on for fuming, but I've still been researching the hell out of it before it ever gets near the flame.

Also, Bandhu Dunham covers fuming with other metals in Contemporary Lampworking. His basic finding was "don't waste your time".

Either way, good luck, and stay safe.

[Alfred]

First step would be to UTFSE ,this subject has been covered here fairly extensively. I've tried several of the metals mentioned (no, I wasn't stupid enough to try cadmium, if you take offense to that statement,take a look at the MSDS (http://www.sciencelab.com/xMSDS-Cadmium-9923223) on cadmium) and tend to agree with what Bandhu says in his book. To rehash:

Copper: similar colors to gold but more muddy looking(ie. uglier) and the fume is more toxic.It is also harder than gold to get to stick.

Palladium: difficult to get to fume and the only result I got was a dingy gray.

Cobalt: Same as Palladium dingy gray.

Platinum: same as palladium,grey scuz, VERY hard to get to even fume.

Here, I UTSE for you (search terms: fuming+metal) :

Fuming techs- thread collection (http://www.talkglass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=121&highlight=Fuming+metals)

Metals question (http://www.talkglass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36826&highlight=Fuming+metals)

Platinum fuming (http://www.talkglass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22482&highlight=Fuming+metals)

Fuming alternatives and additions? (http://www.talkglass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33542&highlight=Fuming+metals)

why silver and gold (http://www.talkglass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31383&highlight=Fuming+metals)

Copper Fuming??? (http://www.talkglass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6698&highlight=Fuming+metals)

[Ronin]

thanks for the info guys. I have read the MSDS on all the metals I was looking at and I guess I don't really want to mess with a lot of that stuff. (especially the cadmium, which I was actually looking for). not that it will hurt (much) to experiment, but I guess I shouldn't expect much.

[dOprah Winfrey]

Isn't your studio on a balcony in an apartment complex? Sounds to me like your only one unexpected gust of wind while fuming away from, well... whatever happens to people when fuming with super toxic metals that get blown into there face by an unexpected gust of wind.

Best of luck, post your results.

[Adapt]

you can get sooooooo many colors/effects with all the colors/frits that the many color companies have to offer. why expose urself to nasty fumes for a color that is probably gonna look like shit.

sorry, but i've seen a lot of these threads and it amazes me that ppl want to use themselves as guinea pigs for something pretty unnecessary.

To all those wishing to fume every element they can,

use all the colors available in every possible application, then start another one of these threads...

[l33t:weasel]

the dead give-away that its not worth the effort is:

everyone has thought of it

but

no one does it.

[Ronin]

the dead give-away that its not worth the effort is:

everyone has thought of it

but

no one does it.

see, this is why I asked... to save myself a lot of unnecessary headaches (and whatever other ailments may come with it), and to learn from the mistakes of those who have tried the same stupid shit before me.

still gonna try the copper I bought though. seems like people get results from that, and I got a good deal on it.

[Adapt]

Why are you gonna try the copper? I thought I read on here a while back that copper fumes can collapse your lungs and other bad shit.

Get some red exotic frit in every grade. Apply the frit to the outside of a tube and work it with oxidizing and reducing flames, learn about how the different flame atmospheres affect the colors.

I don't know how good your ventilation is, but c'mon, why risk putting your body on the line for reds and greens...

[Gathering]

OK let me make a list of stuff to STAY AWAY FROM.

Chromium- Yes, Henry and Abe play with it. They make beautiful colors with it. BUT STAY THE FRAC AWAY FROM IT. I won't go into vailent states, but go watch erin Brocovich and come back and we will talk.

Cadmium-This was the FIRST thing the Cal EPA ruled toxic and got it out of the plating industry as much as possible. Makes Chrome look like mother milk. gets into you and STAYS. Highly prized usage in China, nice they have no epa reg's.

Cyanide-With the rise of electroforming in this community, AND with the plating industry having tons more options now a days to get result X. NO ONE should be using a Cyanide bath.

Nitric Acids-Another fav of the plating industry, INCREDIBLY DANGEROUS. The story goes during a OHSA 40hr Haz-mat class was a junkie who broken into a chemical supply house, stole a 5 gal SS drum of nitric acid. She emptied it out onto the ground to recycle the SS. The splash from it got onto her arm, and she lost the arm.

There are much better ways to do a process now than by the olden days methods.

Louis Thank you very much for posting. To everone who might want to get down on him for asking, if he went home and tried Cadmium.....my guess is he would be in a box in 5 years due to liver cancer....YMMV.

PS. You never want to hear, "Hmm we are seeing some odd things on your X-rays, it may be the beginning stages of bone cancer. Have you worked with anything toxic in your life?"....It will make you do crazy things, like give up your consulting business and buy a glass company....

[hashmasta-kut]

i couldnt get titanium to work for me, it just seemed to explode or something.

[Gathering]

Was looking something up in Bandu's book and, my bad....

The cadmium fumes would have probably killed him outright, it was the Chromium what would have caused the organ damage, most likely Kidney then liver.

[Ronin]

from the research I have done it seems that the copper collapsing your lungs is a myth without a single case proven, but I like to hear things like this, it makes me step back and do more research.

[Ronin]

i couldnt get titanium to work for me, it just seemed to explode or something.

or something?

[Icarus]

But if off gassed NOTHING!

[Julian]

Whether copper will 'collapse your lungs' isn't really the point - it's known to be toxic.

The idea of fuming cadmium, too... um... fuming cadmium.

Might as well just kill yourself now.

[Greymatter Glass]

Hi. Official Melting Pot Mad Scientist here...

It is always wise to be cautious around any hazardous chemicals and to read and understand the MSDS sheets if you do have a situation in which you need to use a chemical. If you don't have the tools, facility, experience, and knowledge of how to practice safe chemistry let someone else do it... maybe you can learn from them.

When you have people saying "do not mess with Chemical "X" there's a good chance they know something you don't.... there's also a chance they're just hyper-cautious or wrong. If you lack the knowledge and/or experience to know which is which please opt for the safer option of NOT messing with it.

If you're still determined then please consult the MSDS sheets for any chemical/element you're thinking of experimenting with. MSDS is the Material Safety Data Sheet. They are required by law to ship with any chemical sold in the US that has any level of hazard, i.e. anything but water pretty much... (retail sales are often excluded, like cleaning products, but the MSDS is available from the seller - always)

The best way to find an MSDS is to get one from the source of your chemicals. If you're getting chemicals from someone who does not have, will not, or cannot provide an MSDS then don't deal with them.

If you have some chemicals already and no MSDS then please go to www.google.com and type in: MSDS +"chemical name" and view a couple results till you see a standard MSDS. They are always free, but some companies try to charge for tyhem... if you have to pay, look elsewhere.

Be careful, I've known people who have died or been severely incapacitated by toxic exposure.

-Doug

[Greymatter Glass]

Also, if anyone is looking for an MSDS and can't find one, let me know...

[Greymatter Glass]

here's an example of an MSDS for Cadmium Sulfide:

http://www.alfa.com/content/msds/USA/A14544.pdf

[Julian]

So if I wear a self-contained respirator and a fully protective impervious suit, it should be OK? What kind of colors do you think you can get out of that?

[BeSnoddy]

The truth about fuming: so years ago when Bob discovered whole metal deposition of silver, he tried other metals and found their not worth fuming.

Gold and Silver fumed the best

copper was more difficult, and poisonous to. arsenic burns off
platinum made a beautiful purple if you were able to get it to fume; and when it does it changes the ph in the air, likely burning everyone in the room.

If you really want to know about fuming, go to the best. Bob and I are happy to answer any fuming questions

[Superflyglassworks]

Ya know, when you endlessly talk about how dangerous other metals are but completely ignore the dangers of silver/gold fumes, you could potentially give people the wrong impression, fuming with ANY metal is dangerous and potentially lethal without adequate ventilation.

[PyroChixRock]

Ya know, when you endlessly talk about how dangerous other metals are but completely ignore the dangers of silver/gold fumes, you could potentially give people the wrong impression, fuming with ANY metal is dangerous and potentially lethal without adequate ventilation.

While adequate ventilation is very important, it isn't the metal fume you need to worry about. See this thread for more info. (http://www.talkglass.com/forum/showthread.php?54569-preferred-torch-for-fume-work) (read the whole thing)

[snoopdog6502]

Ya know, when you endlessly talk about how dangerous other metals are but completely ignore the dangers of silver/gold fumes, you could potentially give people the wrong impression, fuming with ANY metal is dangerous and potentially lethal without adequate ventilation.

In all reality you are using nano-grams of metal in fuming and you absolutely should be using good ventilation. I dont think you need a space suit though.

Use some common sense and its fine, just like you know to keep your fingers out of the fire.

One day in a foundry or busy welding shop will give you a lifetimes worth of nasty metal fumes. I did my time and know all to well.

The good news is when the time comes for me to live on an oxygen concentrator Ill know all about them. LOL

[Greymatter Glass]

Ya know, when you endlessly talk about how dangerous other metals are but completely ignore the dangers of silver/gold fumes, you could potentially give people the wrong impression, fuming with ANY metal is dangerous and potentially lethal without adequate ventilation.

There are equal concerns about not having enough information, and not having good information.

First off, I would point out that this forum cannot be viewed as a source of medical advice. if you have specific concerns about your individual health and safety, or more general concerns about yourwork space and visitors to it I would highly recommend you seek the advice of a physician.

That said... the forum Misha linked is a GREAT source of general information and debate on the issue. I'm not sure how I missed it the first time around. Suffice to say, I side with Somewhere and agree silver is not a point of concern for my health and safety, but that alone doesn't negate the need for ventilation.

Next - hyperbolic statements, fear mongering, and pandering to ignorance are not good rhetorical practices. If you're going to make claims that something it harmful back it up. Misinformation and the perpetuation of false or disproven science does every bit as much harm and no science at all.

You can claim that an over abundance of caution is preferable to an under abundance or no caution at all.... it would be fine to say "hey, I'm not really sure, but I think silver might be a serious safety concern" but to run around the room scream "omg you're all going to die from silver" when there is substantial evidence to the contrary (even if you're not aware of it) is asinine.

[Greymatter Glass]

In all reality you are using nano-grams of metal in fuming


well, I get your point but again... that's a gross (under)exaggeration. A grain of salt weighs about 300,000 nanograms (a nanogram is a billionth of a gram)

Based on the silver I sell to local glass blowers I would estimate most lampworkers who use silver average out to about 30 grams of silver a year, depending on what you're making. Some may only use 2 or 3 g a year, others will use 200 if all they do is melt 80% of it off their rod onto their bench and fume 100 pipe a day...

Still, the acute exposure in any given work period is going to be on the order of small fractions of a gram probably milli-, or even micro- grams, as most of that goes into the glass and air - such a small amount makes it to your lungs it just doesn't seem relevant in most cases.

Don't huff silver children.