Chihuly's lawsuit pissing off others

[BlueDevil]

Saw this in The Olympian newspapers letters to the editer section

www.theolympian.com



Dale Chihuly has sunk to new low

Shame on Dale Chihuly.

Where would the art world be if the masters of fine art had decided to sue up-and-coming artists that had been influenced by their style of work?

As an art teacher of 30-some years, I am flattered to be an influence in my students' work and proud to see my students making achievements in the art world. Does Chihuly feel young wolves nipping at his heels, or is he just plain greedy?

Although Chihuly's work has been so influential that it is not uncommon to see pieces similar to his style in shops and galleries throughout the Northwest, Chihuly has filed a lawsuit against one of his former master craftsmen, Bryan Rubino of Rubino Glass Studio in Shelton.

Yikes! Who in their right mind would want to apprentice with the master glass blower now?

What is Chihuly after? More money? More fame? As a former instructor in Chihuly's "Seniors making art" program, I am shocked that such a great artist would stoop to such depths.

Sage VanZandt, Olympia

edited for bad link

[Julian]

Ha ha... yeah, people that try to control markets like that are wankoids!!
They don't care about the art world - or glass - just $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[dnug42]

is it more he cannot control this younger artist any longer? because he no longer works for dale!?* just trying to understand why this great artist, whom has influenced so many want's to go this root...i had just seen his special- dale over venice- or what ever it was called?- really great documentary- now i hear this- ahhhhh well what else in life can let us down?

[smutboy420]

I took a hammer to every one of our Chihulys. It was fun.

[rustyglass]

Mickelsen should be suing a bunch of people if this were the norm. And a ton of other artists that have proven to be influential for that matter. This cant hold up, if it does it opens a pandoras box of lawsuits based on opinion. Somebody taught Chihuly, they should be suing him for the same reasons.

[smutboy420]

Man I hope Mike Plane don't sue me for my vase lips I have been doing. I seen him do it before me. and I hope Mickelsen don't sue him for any thing or visa versa.

Oh wait they are actually cool and would probly be flattered if someone used something they showed someone to do. They probly would not be teaching anyone Then turning around and suing them for paying attention to what they where shown.

So when are Chihuly's forefathers filing suit on him? He's not the first guy to figure out how to have some one blow glass. he sure as hell don't have a monopoly on ugly glass. (this its hard to tell he don't tho)

And if you can. I'd like to finely know. Where did the notion ever come from that this guy is some glass artist ever come from in the first place? Second is he really even a real person? Many have seen him, Many have his autograph, Many have his glass. Many have even worked for him. But I can't recall EVER hearing of any one ever hanging out with him or any thing.

To me he's more a figment of everybody's collective imagination more then hes a real physical human being.

But seeing as how most of his pomp is just BS, Hotair and some smoke and mirrors. Maybe he will fade away. If his hot air bubble bursts what is he? Just a guy with no life and no real personality of his own. And we all know He's too much of a tight wad to ever go buy a real personality even if he could. lol

But I really don't see him making it in the world if it where on his real marits.

I would't see him lasting a week on this board lol lol lol lol lol lol

[Micah Evans]

not to defend him, I think this is all silly. The guy wasn't his student, he was a payed employee making copyrighted works. If the guy paid Dale for a lesson then there wouldnt be a problem.......cuz dale doesn't blow glass! There is probably a history we don't know about here.

With that being said, I don't really care for most work from Chihuly, so dont blast me for this.

[themoch]

For many good reasons i no longer respect Dale.

I would have to agree with Micah though. This guy did work for him, and in most jobs where you have to deal with "intellectual" property, you sign waivers... i am sure that this guy did sign one such document, and is probably violating it in some way.

given all of this, i still don't like Dale.

[Julian]

Mickelsen should be suing a bunch of people if this were the norm.

Yeah! Thank goodness he isn't after the Junior Mickelsen League! There'd be about 50 lawsuits to file.

[Robert Mickelsen]

Yeah! Thank goodness he isn't after the Junior Mickelsen League! There'd be about 50 lawsuits to file.
Maybe y'all should supply me with a "League" membership list... just in case Dale wins... :o:

- RAM

[Micah Evans]

don't get any bright ideas Robbin, I'm broke!!

[alacrity024]

my aunt took classes from Chihuly at RISD many many years ago and she told me that it was not at all uncommon for him to ask female students to sleep with him in order to continue taking classes with him. he really doesn't seem like such a great guy to me.

[steven p selchow]

The casting kiln...is it sleep along the way or learn?

Funny stuff.

[maui greenstone]

does anybody know the last piece dale did where he actually had any hands on time and not just the "conceptual" work? The man has ideas......great but do you ever see any of his team's names featured on anny pieces....ever. Don't get me wrong, the man has done alot for glass but he is also way over hyped, and shame on him for riding the backs of other talanted artists without giving any recognition.

[Spider]

If it's not round & symetrical - it's art! Cheaper than starting over. Just think of the art the Blashkas would have made - tying all their f--k-ups together instead of striving for universal order. Now that is conceptual.

We're all still waiting for Pink Floyd to give credit to the female singer on "Time" (Dark Side Of The Moon)!

[Chris Juedemann]

Here is what his hot shop peers have to say:
http://talk.craftweb.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4046&highlight=chihuly+lawsuit

You guys need to step back and chill the fuck out- its not about his vision or tactics. The defendant in the lawsuit was selling his knockoffs at Costco. And you same people bitch about China (it was India 2 years ago) undercutting pipes.

The first sentence of the first post shows how flawed this mob mentality thinking is- are they up-and-coming, or are they masters? It's like a kid on the cereal isle.

Chris

[Frrrit]

If Dale pays other people to make his designs with his equipment and glass, why would he have to give them any recognition? I doubt if they worked for free.

Dale's former employee took Dale's developed designs and reproduced them and sold them in galleries in Dale's back yard. Not too bright. Is it art? Does that matter? Does Dale own those designs? It will take the courts a couple of years to decide.

[smutboy420]

a lot of newz accounts are calling the defendant a former apprentice.
I say one thing is wacked for sure is how the case proceded any way regarless of the merits of the case. It was never filed in the proper way. Hes not even naming What IF any works where copied.
Wich makes for a legal first. So even if dale wins he will loose as soon as its appealed cause the judge already fucked up by letting the case procead when Chihuly has not stated just what his gripe even is yet in regards to what pcs where even copied. How many of each said works copied or how many where ever sold and by who and to who.
Your suposed to have all that crap worked out long before you can even decide to file a case of infringment on anyone. So this case is getting a lot more newz then just in the glass world Its being watched by other artests of other mediums. and its allso being watched over by legal buffs cause its not only a first case of its kind. The legal buffs where allready saying from day one he don't have a case. Inless he can say just how many pcs where copied and establish at least some sort of basis of his damages. Hes tring to say a style was copied. not exacat copies but the whole "ish" or "ness" of any thing that even looks Chihuly-ish or even has a Chihulyness to it.
And if you NO ONE can claim a whole "ish" to them selves legaly. Why should he be any difrent? Thats not opinion Thats a legal fact.

Norman rockwell could not sue anyone for painting holiday sceans that just looked norman rockwell-ISH. They would have to be copies of 1 of his real works or at least tring to CLAIM it was a rockwell.

[Brett A Tam]

Here is a definition of "work for hire" verbatim from a book called Art Marketing 101, A Handbook for Fine Artists, copyright 2004 by Constance Smith. I don't know the whole story behind Chihuly's lawsuit and this may or may not apply but here it is;
Work-for-hire occupies a special category under copyright law. If you are employed or apprenticed and you create a work of art through the scope of your employment or apprenticeship, your employer or master owns the copyright to your work. The copyright owner of works-for-hire is the person who does the hiring. The creator has no rights to the work whatsoever, unless she/he and the employer have agreed in advance to the contrary. Any such agreement must be written and signed by both parties.
Great book.

[Sol]

wait a minute..is this guy whos gettin sued put chihulys name on them? isnt that what it comes down to? can you sue me cause i made the same spoon as you? if hes puttin chihulys name on it or trying to make money off chihuly then he deserves to burn but because he can make a cheaper product and he markets it as a cheap peice of shit to costco of all places does he really deserve to be punished??? if so we all burn..you had best all pray he doesnt win this suit cause snodgrass if gonna own your asses for using his fuming techs...hahahahahahaahaha smutboy,,your my # 4 hero

[Frrrit]

This case is about exact copies. Also about Kaindl's websites stating that he was a dealer for Dale, but oops, he was just making the work without Dale knowing it. Also it's about a former employee contract agreement. Also it's about a set of drawings Dale did for a new installation that Kaindl got his hands on and duped the work. I would bet Dale can afford the best IP lawyers so i assume they have a case. So why does the lawsuit piss people off? Prolly cause they don't know the facts of the case because nobody knows at this point. Copyrights don't protect a style. When this case is over we'll know the facts, and I would bet they were not about style, just exact copies and fraud.

[skip]

Well Who knows if he has a case or not. One things for sure We all know he is and always has been marketing genius. At the end of all this win or loose he made the headlines once again. Cost of a lawyer doesn't compare to the publicity and attention his work is getting right now.

Now excuse me I have to go sandblast and oil paint lol.....

[dellis326]

The work referred to in the lawsuit look almost duplicate to Chihulies work, I think it's the sea form series piece. Maybe dale should sue momma nature for shaping sponges and sea fans after his work. . .

I guess I can see both sides of this argument. If I designed a series of work I wouldn't want someone else coping it and selling it. On the other hand we all copy to some extent and build on what's been done before.

Weren't a lot of you folks coming down on chihuly bitchen about chinese glass just a few months ago?

I remember once on the old board someone made some copies of some marbles with imploded faces on them, (Don't remember who made the originals and who made the copies) Folks was bitchin left and right about "copies" and "fakes" and the cat should have his ass kicked for stealing a design.

Fucking Hypocrites suck

[rumplephorskin]

Bitching about Chihuly is completely valid if you bitch about sweatshops. His prices may be high but that has little to do with how he takes care of his people. Granted; we live in america and no matter how rough we may think we have it sometimes; none of us go through things as deplorable as what goes on in the far east. The payscale may be different but the politics are the same. Chihuly is making his living off of the sweat of others and not compensating them properly. I know folks that have worked in his boathouse and he pays them $15 an hour to make him thousands every day. Most of the time he isn't even in Seattle. The only reason most of them do it is for the experience and the resume thing.
We are ALL a bunch of knock off artists getting by on the discoveries of others. Any of you guys invent stick stack??? Fuming?? retticello??? how bout floral implosion marbles????? When are the italians gonna step up and sue Chihuly for making glass floats???

[smutboy420]

legaly any thing made while working under chihuly does belong to chihuly. But to say a whole style resembling other works belonggs to you is entering some legal black area. esp of all things the sea foarms. They look pretty easy to do and they look pretty random So I don't know how any one could copy them even chihuly.
funny last time I seen chihuly on TV he was talking about how no 2 pcs are EVER exacty alike and each one is unique. So I'm wondering how he feels any of his stuff could be copied exacty .I thought they where hand blown? I din't know they where machien made or any thing like that.

All the power to chihuly for making the kind of $ he has made on medioaker glass in the past. But if he wins this law suit this will be just the beginning of every one in the world that ever thought they started some style or movement in the art world will want to sue some one.

If he looses He will look like the big mean glass blower guy that lost. Its not glass blowers that buy his stuff its not some thing some one buys because they need to have a chihuly. Or only a chihuly will work for what they need the pcs for. Some one doesn't even useally buy it cause its some nice pcs of glass. They buy it cause its made by some god named chihuly.

He is a house hold name so if the news paints him as the losser it will reverbirate far. I have aready been asked by some one if I knew who chihuly was and if I heard of Dale chihuly's lawsuit? So all them peep that come up to US all the time tring to bring up Dale chihuly's name as if to impress us will all be up todate on the out come of the case with in a few weeks of it happing.
If he looses I see a big part of his Hot Air bubble bursting on him.

There is such thing as pushing boundries and there is such a thing as some one going to far and turning there fans against them.

[BlueDevil]

I never saw anythibng about the folks at Rubino Gallerys selling thier work to Costco.. Thats not named in the suit with the other art gallerys sell n his work. OOOOOooooo wrinckly mouth bowls... don't make that or dale will sue. This mans studio has been up and running without Dale for over 3 years now and he does alot of killer stuff (right in shelton WA.... 2 miles from Frantz Glass). Art is made by the maker... not the designer ( thats conceptual) Dale did bring alot of main stream publisity to the glass work but that doesn't mean he can claim it's all his ideas and concepts. None of the work in question was signed Chihuly, it was signed by the artists that made them. Folks, if this kind of lawsuit can happen, all of us are in trouble... You fume, your copying. You use frit, your copying etc etc etc. This kind of shit is a black eye for the glass world in my opinion.

Lee

[dellis326]

The costco deal involves a guy names Robert Kandi (I think) along with Rubino. What's pathetic about this whole thing is when you stop and think about the concept of sueing someone over designs it potentially can never stop. I wonder how long it took the first guy to make a sclupted goblet foot to stop feeling ripped off by the second guy to do it. or fluted bowls, or murrinni weights or . . .

[Spider]

Spider hear again. Mob mentality is dangerous and I suppose my earlier statement might have been a little cynical having been stirred up by a previous comment regarding the treatment of certain females in Chihuly's studio. But of course that is all heresay & gossip.

Maybe the bottom line is that all artists love their art and dream and strive to make a living practicing their art. This is not for the weak of heart. It takes a continual shitload of work and effort with the competition always increasing. Copying a good thing rather than pushing the creative envelop makes it all a little easier. And as a member of Oil Painters of America (which outlaws abstract painting - much to my chagrin -but in a world that relies so heavily on credentials earned through established organizations - you don't protest) and my continued participation in the music scene, I've seen it over & over again.

THE IDEA THAT SUCCESS IS A RARE COMMODITY - As if someone elses success is going to somehow hamper the other person's chances for success. The glares you get back stage are almost funny. Fame and fortune are fleeting so you best be guided in making your art with an honest heart. Artists & musicians who can only parrot don't know how to pack their own shute and for the most part have less than mediocre careers.

May the creative prevail, otherwise we'll be seeing the Costcos belting it out with the Walmarts selling glass produced on a virtual prison Island - Nuevo Murrano

[Chris Juedemann]

Lee, and others with the 'ooh you can't copy my fumed work' statements, you have no idea about the history of this.

Look at this guys website (Kaindl's):

http://www.customglassart.com/VirtualReplications.htm

Basically this says 'We can copy anything'. Take a look at the rest of the site.

The hot shops guys have had trouble with him for years. Search for his name on the hot glass board and you'll see.

The worst thing he has done- taken pictures off several peoples websites of their work and put them on his, without their permission. Of course people look at the site assume these are his works. Most managed to stop him from doing that. Notice there isn't many pictures of actual glass on the site.

Now, several months ago, there was an Indian website doing the same thing with pipes from glasspipes.org. Remember how upset folks got about that? I was so upset, I helped shut them down- and I don't even make pipes, never have. So, are you guys pissed at me too? What is the difference? There were wrap and rake spoons on there, and prodo inside out. Isn't that the same thing?

I think the consensus is that Chihuly will lose, but it will sure cause this guy a headache and possibly make him consider a new career.


Chris

[Frrrit]

If Chihuly loses, then it will be open season on most of his work.
If he wins, Kaindl will just move on to the next hot thing (pun intended) and copy that.


Does Chihuly have a gun to these people's head making them work for $15/hr.? Do any of you work for someone that is not making money? If you are, then you will be looking for another job soon.

[Robert Mickelsen]

Art is made by the maker... not the designer
Can't let that one get by without a comment. This is actually false. It is the designer, not the maker, who is the artist and who should get credit for the work. This has been the European tradition for a thousand years. In factories like Orofors in Sweden, the designers don't touch the glass at all. They work entirely on paper conceptually. The makers... called gaffers... then execute the designs. The designer's name goes on the finished product. It is only in the last 50 years in America that this model has changed to where the maker and the designer are the same person.

Chihuly's operation is small compared to Orofors, but the method is the same. Chihuly is the designer (theoretically) and he hires help to execute the designs. He is the composer and sometimes the conductor. Someone else plays first fiddle. But the fiddle player did not write or conduct the music. Get it?

The lawsuit is over legal breaches of some sort or another. None of us know what the charges truly are. It is clear that it is not over copyrights to styles and techniques that the Venetians have utilized for 500 years, that is for sure.

[rumplephorskin]

Does Chihuly have a gun to these people's head making them work for $15/hr.? Do any of you work for someone that is not making money? If you are, then you will be looking for another job soon.

No he doesn't have a gun to their heads. I am aware that some of his people get paid better than $15 an hour as well. All I was saying is that I think it's slimy to make tons of money like that and take care of your help for less than any normal skilled union worker makes. These people are obviously very talented or they wouldn't be on his team. The fact that he has been an influence in the whole American studio glass movement seems to be good for the glass industry as a whole. But I really can't help but want him to lose this one. How much money does one man have to make ????? I'm sure it's nice to have deep pockets; but C"MON!!!!!!

[steven p selchow]

Robert certianly paraphrased it correctly. As said, we don't relly know the facts, only leaks, wish tend to be misleading.

Robert teaches classes for a fee, to share knowldge he himself as developed over the years, it may incorporate some techniques considered public domain he may have learned along the way, but the key is he's teaching you knowing you are going to utilize his teachings, and the old saying..make what the teacher teaches ( I like that saying).

If I were to teach solid sculpture, I would expect nothing less than that individual to copy what I've shown them to make....but not hold on to my style for a lifetime, develop their own as an artist.

We've all seen Mickelsen lookalikes, which I suppose, just guessing here, that he's flattered when an accomplished individual excells to a level of closeness to his work both in quality and execution, he taught them, but expects them to develop over time their own purpose and direction.

If this guy's sole purpose was to take Dale's designs and make them as his own, then I see a problem with that, as any of you artist should with your own work...however, if you paid for that knowledge with common understanding from both parties, that you are going to produce similar works but in essence have paid that fee for that privelidge, than its viewed as something else...thats where the lawyers sort it out.

steve

[Frrrit]

I really can't help but want him to lose this one. How much money does one man have to make ????? I'm sure it's nice to have deep pockets; but C"MON!!!!!!

Almost all successful artists make some people feel inadequate or jealous.

[rumplephorskin]

I am beginning to suspect that frrit is the girl that chihuly is currently keeping after class.

[rumplephorskin]

well frrit was in here when i posted that so i think i may have hit the nail on the head;)

[phab]

...i dont think it matters if hes the conductor, the fiddle player, or the guy singing show tunes with a lampshade on his head. if he doesnt have a visual arts patent on "his" design then i think hes gonna be s. o. l. in a court of law.

if he does have a visual arts patent or an original design patent, then thats a different story.

ive seen lots of photographers take the same picture of different seattle landmarks and i havent heard of art wolfe sueing anyone.

without a patent on a product or design i think all hes gonna be able to do is continue shouting after the game is over. as long as the 'biter' isint claiming its a chihuly work and theres no patent, its much a do about nuttin.

in my havent taken the bar exame yet, opinion.

[Frrrit]

haha rump...how'd you know I was a successful artist?

[rumplephorskin]

Because you smell like a Seattle furnace troll ;)

[phab]

Because you smell like a Seattle furnace troll ;)


... :arr:

[Frrrit]

Hmm...I hope that isn't a smell you are attracted to rump.

[rumplephorskin]

Only if she's cute. There are some fine ass women in the Seattle glass scene. As a matter of fact I would venture to say that the number of hot chix in the Seattle glass scene is is disproportionally higher than in it's general population.