Yes, Another HHO Thread

[J R Hooper]

I am looking to building a hydrolizer capable of producing 3-5 lpm of HHO gas with 12 volts DC in order to run a small torch. I don't want to get into the gandiose debate about car engines and physics, but I am interested to know if any of you have worked with HHO and glass before. There's a wealth of information out there on putting these things together, but it seems to me that most of it is geared towards running through car engines and welding so there isn't alot of glass related stuff out there.

I've studied up on this a bit and it looks to me the big drawbacks are the inability to adjust the chemistry of your flame and the limitations of the amount of gas available. Apparently you also need to have a specialized flashback arrestor, though I would like to maybe construct some kind of surface mix system that will keep the gases seperated to alleviate the dangers of flashbacks.
I've also read that some of your electrolyte can come through the torch in a vapor form, I would imagine a 'bubbler' would take alot of it out, but apparenlty that's not a 100% thing and the idea of sodium hydroxide vapor running through my torch and lungs isn't appealing.

Is there anyone here that has had any luck with this stuff? Dry cell or wet cell? What kind of voltage/amperage is needed to get 3-5 lpm's, what is the best torch for this stuff, there's a million questions and not alot of answers out there at the moment and I'm definately not an electrician. I'd defiantely like to set up a small torch just to try it out though, it would be kinda cool to add a "Made With Water" to my repetoire.

[Kato]

The search bar and Doug. That is all.

[J R Hooper]

Yeah, i've used the search function, and all I've really found so far is basic information and people flipping out when someone mentions HHO like it's some kind of dirty word or something. I don't know what kind of drama has unfolded before now, I don't know anybody named Doug, and I don't want to get into a debate about how efficient hydrolysis is compared to paying Cheneyco. for gasoline. I just want to know if anybody has used it, what kind of problems they might have run into, what kind of equipment they settled on, etc.

Is there some kind of taboo associated with discussing HHO here? I'm not really all that active in these forums so maybe I missed something, but I'm hoping this isn't some kind of political forum drama crap because it's a topic I'm genuinely interested in and kinda serious about.

[J R Hooper]

I know the limitations of the gas production, but I make alot of miniature glass stuff. I'm doing implosions for example that are 2-3mm in diameter so 3-5 lpm's would be dandy. I'm also thinking in terms of designing a torch with tiny ports for a bushy flame rather than trying to up the gas production to force a regular torch to work. Maybe some kind of capillary thing instead of traditional fuel ports... I donno, but I've also read that HHO at high volumes can sublimate tungsten and cut through firebricks but has an ambient temperature of only a couple hundred degrees, I didn't understand that at all but apparently the material the flame comes in contact with has something to do with the temperature of the combustion?? Is it too hot for glass?

Upon looking through the search results for HHO, I've seen a pretty alarming bit of quasi-superstitious drama associated with this stuff, what is that all about? Hell, we made this stuff in sitxth grade science.

[p.j.]

i'm sure if it was feasible, someone here would have tried it.

does it get hot enough to melt boro?(2600) does it burn clean enough? it is as cheap as liquid o2?


these are the questions.....make a diy thread and keep us informed.

liquid costs me 80bux a month. is it cheaper and more efficient than that? is this all just hypothetical?

[Ne2]

An HHO flame will absolutely melt glass. Hydrogen is used quite a bit for melting quartz glass because it does not put any impurities into the glass. Because quartz melts at such high temps... Any kind of art glass will be fine.

There is no taboo in the glass world (that I am aware of) ... But most of us use so much oxygen and fuel that electrolyzing is way more expensive than just purchasing commercially produced gasses.

David

[menty666]

The taboo only comes because it's been discussed to death around here, and still no one's actually gone to show up everyone and made a torch. I've seen ONE guy work glass on youtube with one that was it.

Make one, show us all up...please.

As for the 80 a month for LOx, it's not practical for everyone to get liquid due to shop or work restraints. I'd love it, but getting it out to my shop is near impossible unless I pave, plus I don't torch enough to warrant it.

[brettodie]

lox=nothing to do with hho=fuel.

[HOSS]

Don't know anything about hydrolizers, but I heard of something else recently I believe it was called an electrolyzer, that seperates the oxygen and hydrogen from water using electricity. Someone had hooked one up to a solar panel array and was bottling the hydrogen it made, I was curious if it could be used to bottle oxygen the same way.

[Greymatter Glass]

Y...people flipping out when someone mentions HHO ...I don't know anybody named Doug, and I don't want to get into a debate

I'm Doug.

Normally I (or someone like me) flip out because these people know nothing about HHO and electrolysis and assume all kinds of stupid things about it that violate basic tenants of physics...

What you're trying to do is possible, mostly.... it's not cheap. it's not efficient. it's not practical. If it's all you've got to be able to work in a space that will not bend on letting you bring in pressurized gasses my advice is find another spot.

or invest in medical oxygen concentrators.

anyways I have some stuff going on, I'll check back in here in a bit...

[newmexicomagma]

Have you guys seen that youtube video of that truck that runs on water?

[B-Rye-oNeR]

Anyone else click on this thinking HHO stood for something else....? .... Just me?

[BoroZillacate]

^^ It does not get you high, lets get that out there.

[J R Hooper]

Nice to meet you doug. :-)
I already have three concentrators so it's not a lack of equipment for me so much as it is the novelty of it. I think it would certainly add some marketibility to my work as well considering the trends towards environmentalism etc. Also it seems that a small amount of on demand HHO gas, as explosive as it is, would be a little safer to have around than a big tank of propane or oxygen, that appeals to me on a number of levels. The whole idea just seems pretty cool.
Have you actually had a chance to work with HHO? I'm really curious about the flame properties, if it can sublimate tungsten, how does it handle glass without being too hot? Have also read that you can to add something to your electrolyte to color the flame, a purple water torch would be pretty cool.
Do you have any thoughts about plates vs. coils, have seen some folks starting to use stainless wool for their plates to increase their surface area which can quadrouple the gas production, sounded intriguing.
I'm not terribly worried about the cost or efficiency at this point, a very basic system with a small flame would be ideal and if I can get a working size flame from 12 volts DC then I would be tickled. It can't be much worse than the 500-1000 watts I'm pulling to run the concentrators, can it?

[Greymatter Glass]

...considering the trends towards environmentalism etc.

not really a valid motive... but let's not digress...



Also it seems that a small amount of on demand HHO gas, as explosive as it is, would be a little safer to have around than a big tank of propane or oxygen, that appeals to me on a number of levels.

Well, it would depend on what you're doing with it. Sure, salt water is safer in most respects than tanks of fuel gas.... I guess that's a valid motive and is the
entire reason that you'll see those little water torches in the jewelry repair kiosks at malls.



The whole idea just seems pretty cool.
Science. It works, bitches. Yeah, it's kinda cool I guess...for a while, then it's just another thing.



Have you actually had a chance to work with HHO?


I have used the water torches that Rio Grande sells when I was in school. As I recall they ran on 110v and would frequently trip a 15 amp breaker if anything else was plugged into the breaker...leading me to think they run somewhere in excess of 1000W... for a flame that was so small you could barely solder more than a ring or small broach or pendant with it. Equal to maybe a #4 or #5 Smith Little Torch tip.



I'm really curious about the flame properties,
it's hot enough to solder platinum (I never have) and it's a soft slightly greenish tinted flame from the boric acid flux solution it uses. Without the flux the flame is invisible in anything but a very dark room.



if it can sublimate tungsten, how does it handle glass without being too hot?

That's the rub, isn't it... it's way too hot for boro. You can use it. I've melted boro with a hydrogen torch set up for quartz work... it's about the same as trying to pull stringers of soda-lime glass on a delta - it's tricky, but can be learned.



Have also read that you can to add something to your electrolyte to color the flame, a purple water torch would be pretty cool.

Yeah, the torch I played with had a mixing chamber for flux, but you could put anything in it I guess. I wonder if you put in silver nitrate if you'd have an auto fuming torch? purple would be...what... manganese salts? probably something really toxic and bad for the glass at any rate. Also, not sure how it's mixed. I know on the water torches it's not mixed with the electrolyte...



Do you have any thoughts about plates vs. coils, have seen some folks starting to use stainless wool for their plates to increase their surface area which can quadrouple the gas production, sounded intriguing.

it's all about surface area, but surface area = current. I would think plates would be more predictable and less contaminating than wool... ideally you would get some platinum plates... but trying to keep costs down would be impossible.



I'm not terribly worried about the cost or efficiency at this point,

platinum plates.



a very basic system with a small flame would be ideal and if I can get a working size flame from 12 volts DC then I would be tickled. It can't be much worse than the 500-1000 watts I'm pulling to run the concentrators, can it?

Much. MUCH. worse. like I said, a small water torch for a jewelry bench, besides costing well over $1000 when I was using it, could only produce a tiny little needle point flame for somewhere upwards of 1000W of 110v AC. I'm sure most of the weight was in the rectifier power supply for the unit.

Remember, energy is heat. You can't make it from nothing. I have no idea what the actual energy output is of a small glass torch like a minor, but I'm certain it's in excess of 1500w. Factor in the hugely inefficient nature of electrolysis and you're looking at some pretty big numbers. Just off the top of my head I am guessing an HHO generator to provide fuel to a 7 port Nortel Minor would need to draw at least 20-25 amps at 220, easily in excess of 4500 watts. So for every hour on the torch you'd be using 4.5 kilowatt hours... here that would be about $0.58 per hour ($0.1295/kWhr) - not a BAD price.... but a real price all the same.


Anyways.... I'm not against the idea of using hydrogen sources from electrolysis as a fuel for glass blowing. What I'm against is people thinking its any of the following:

cheap (free!)
easy
efficient
environmentally sound
safe

It's none of those, but then again, what is? Sometimes you can pick one or two from the list... but not in this case.

if you decide to do it post up pics of the build. if I had the time I'd make a demo unit to prove that it CAN be done, and why it never actually is... you know... if I had the time.

[daveabr]

u da man doug

[ornametalsmith]

JR.
here's a Ready made unit for ya...it AIN'T cheap LOL

http://www.hytechapps.com/products.html

That site used to have a video of an older gentleman that DID work glass with it....said he LOVED it.......


didn't see a link to that vid today........no idea why.

HERE it is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z36DQlxbTto

[Greymatter Glass]

Interesting video.

I notice he's running a fairly large jewelers torch, looks about comparable to a hothead burner in size and flame, but obviously it gets MUCH hotter.

He's melting softglass, tho, and his entire story is suspect, since he says he's heating a copper ball when he's obviously heating a glass bead...

If that's all he can do with the output of that unit, I doubt it would do well with a torch much larger than a GTT lynx or nortel minor.

Any idea what the unit costs?

[newmexicomagma]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjqkHhWUKOU

[Bro-crispy]

I have a friend who owns an Aquagyn, I believe he runs the inner flame of his carlisle on it, and pretty sure he only melts soft glass. I know very little about it, to be honest. But yes, I believe it's pretty limiting for him.

So, there are people doing it . . .

[Julian]

This comes down to the fact that this is not an efficient process. One is producing electricity by burning fuel, transmitting that energy over power lines, and putting it into an expensive machine which creates fuel in a chemical reaction. You're losing energy at every step there. It would make much more sense to just go buy tanks of hydrogen or whatever fuel you want, in my opinion.

[Greg Cowles]

Have researched and experimented a bit with HHO.
Be sure that all metal that will be coming in contact with hydrogen is either nickel, or stainless steel.
Other metals will eventually become brittle and crack because the hydrogen penetrates most metals, degrading the tensilary strength.
You could end up having some disasterous results if the inside of your torch or flashback arrestors started to crumble.

Lots of critics for lots of reasons, but I say go for it.

[menty666]

JR.

didn't see a link to that vid today........no idea why.

HERE it is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z36DQlxbTto

That video annoys me. They show how vibrant the colors are, compared to using acetylene, which no sane person does.

One other thing. Say you're going to save some money and use solar or wind to run the electrolysis process, unless you're working as it's being produced, you need a way to hold it which means compressing the hydrogen into a tank, which means more power.