Glass a liquid? - once again

[richsantaclaus]

As you all should know, the Scientific Method follows the chart shown below at the very bottom of my post.

I want to point out the part that says: Hypothesis is FALSE or PARTIALLY true moves to the bubble Think and TRY AGAIN.

Revised hypothesis: Old glass (over 100 years old) may not be thicker at the bottom than at the top.

With that in mind, I went to the Shaker Village in Kentucky and shot the pictures of 4 windows below that all are 290 years old in the Shaker's 3 story General Meeting Room up in the attic.

Notice that they do not have the same ripple pattern as the windows that Bodie had. I tried to place colored shapes so the ripples could be seem better that the reflections of Bodie.

Note some of the ripples make a zig-zag pattern and others make ovalish patterns.

I got slammed following the scientific method {First Hypothesis: Old glass (over 100 years old) is thicker at the bottom than at the top} by most people but I won't let their attitudes stop me from visiting this topic another time.

I need physical evidence not just wiki stuff. Now I have more physical evidence that some 100 year (or older) glass is not thicker at the bottom than at the top so my first hypothesis was wrong.

Now my revised second hypothesis that 100 year old (or older) glass is not thicker at the bottom than the top seems to be true.

On this 8 week vacation from California to Maine and back might provide me with other old window panes to take pictures of - sorts like a third experiment to see if my new second hypothesis is true.

Anyway, thanks for looking at my new pictures.

Oh I almost forgot - the head guy in charge of window replacement gave me a broken piece of 290 year old window pane- I'll make a marble out of it!

[Aussie]

no, you didn't get slammed for following a scientific method. Moreover "Old glass (over 100 years old) is thicker at the bottom than at the top" is not a hypothesis, it's an easily provable fact that applies to some methods of antique glass pane manufacture. The opposition to your prior musings stem from that fact that you extrapolated from this phenomenon the hypothesis that some antique glass is thicker at the bottom because glass is a liquid and flows down with gravity.

Looking at your images, I would put forward that the glass you show was either hand rolled or hand flattened with battens. I suggest that you visit the bullseye factory where glass is still handmade in very much the same way, ladled onto a table and rolled out. The ripples in the glass you show look to me like drag marks from the rolling/spreading process, or even cords, which come from incongruously melted batch. The configuration of those blobs in the third image suggest that they are an addition to the hot glass mass added during the rolling process. Probably tin or lead oxide, which was sprinkled over the hot glass surface on purpose (there is no indication that these blobs are in any way actually in the glass mass, otherwise overlapping would be in evidence), a technique used to provide an increased level of texture and distortion to provide a greater level of privacy, much in the same way some of todays window glass is textured.

If you have set out to prove that some antique window glass is flat and some antique windows glass is thicker at one end than the other, you certainly have done that job well and you deserve a golden star sticker on your report card!

But surely the title of your new thread must be an accident, as you do not in any way address the part about glass being a liquid in your writings or how your findings that some antique glass pertain to this supposition or in any way set out to prove this. A more appropriate and accurate title would be
"Some glass is flat!"

Anyway, I'm glad you're having fun, enjoy playing around with the 290 yo glass.

[Matt P]

gtfo! :crazy:

I mean....good luck? with it this time around?'

And on a more positive note, take pictures of the marble, I'd like to see it!

[mer]

i'm really doubting whether you are being sincere about this rich. it really looks as if you are having some fun at the expense of people's patience. it's not a subjective matter and it has clearly been proven. you are doing independent research for the flat earth society. i am trying to give you the benefit of the doubt but this is getting a bit ridiculous.

[Julian]

I think the scientific method for me means not bothering trying to do empirical research myself, and just paying attention to the vast body of scientific and observational evidence readily available not just in the world at large, but in the previous thread about this topic.

[Natedizzle]

Could you get a few pictures of yourself scientifically tapping on any old windows you find on your vacation please?

Thank you

[Icarus]

39368

[hedcraft]

You sir, are absolutely fucking adorable.
I wholeheartedly support and applaud whatever you believe you are doing here.
Also, I've always been told the variation in thickness in old windows is because they are made from hand-spun billets, which, like anything that is hand-"whatever" are notoriously non-conformal across their cross-sectional thickness.
Anyway, yea those old-world windows are pretty cool looking close up. That's what we're establishing here right? That those super old, totally non-conformal handmade items are really photogenic? Because drawing any other conclusion from such a total lack of evidence would just be silly.

[Swampy]

SMFH - once again.

[Bunyip]

Why would a Wookiee, an 8-foot-tall Wookiee, want to live on Endor, with a bunch of 2-foot-tall Ewoks? That does not make sense! But more important, you have to ask yourself: What does this have to do with this case? Nothing. Ladies and gentlemen, it has nothing to do with this case! It does not make sense! Look at me. I'm a lawyer defending a major record company, and I'm talkin' about Chewbacca! Does that make sense? Ladies and gentlemen, I am not making any sense! None of this makes sense! And so you have to remember, when you're in that jury room deliberatin' and conjugatin' the Emancipation Proclamation, does it make sense? No! Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, it does not make sense! If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you must acquit! The defense rests.

[TlkQ]

Why wouldn't an 8 foot tall furry dude want to live on a planet where every other furry dude is 3 feet tall? It's pretty obvious who's going to rule that bitch at that point.

Also, kicking and screaming.

[Julian]

Why wouldn't an 8 foot tall furry dude want to live on a planet where every other furry dude is 3 feet tall? It's pretty obvious who's going to rule that bitch at that point.

Also, kicking and screaming.

I'd like to think that Chewbacca desires a more fulfilling life.

[Emmett's Glass]

Why would a Wookiee, an 8-foot-tall Wookiee, want to live on Endor, with a bunch of 2-foot-tall Ewoks? That does not make sense!

Maybe Chewbaca had a thing for midgets?
E

[TlkQ]

My roomate pointed out [Star Wars freak] that it never even implies Chewy stays on Endor.

[Greymatter Glass]

http://www.greymatter.org/pandas/wtf/huuuurderp.jpg

[Ronin]

If you read the star wars books, he did not stay on endor.

On the last one of these threads, I opened my mouth and got slapped down, so I did a little research. I came across one simple question that removed all doubt that glass is not a liquid... if glass is a liquid, how have ancient egyptian glass sculptures kept their form for thousands of years?

[TlkQ]

He's already been presented with all of the facts. Now he's just that kid on the playground kicking and screaming that they are still right. You can show someone logical, rational explanations, but you can't make them believe them unless they are a logical, rational person.

[Ronin]

fair enough

[Greymatter Glass]

http://www.greymatter.org/pandas/kermit.jpg

[VertigoGlass]

To support a scientific process you would have to have base lines from day one. You cant build your conclusion off of some pictures when you have zero relitive data of the starting point.

When I lived in Arkansas i lived in the old town hospital that was built in 1878. Creepy place to live kick ass pad for parties. All of the outward facing doors had 14 glass pannels in the and all of the pannels were looser at the top than at the bottom and i used this to back my glass is a liquid theory for years. One night during a huge party the backdoor was destroyed by the cops when the slammed the door open it litearally fell off the hinges. The next day i decided to disect tue door and measure out the pannels there were not broken. I marked the tops bottoms sided and so on and took a set off measuring 100s of points.thesewere hand made pannels with obvious high ansd low spots but no matter how i tried to get around it the top and nottom averaged out to be the same and after measuring the pockets the glass sat in the upper pockets were lacking glazing. Was interesting to see first hand be without having a base line to start from i had no conclusion to make ither than the factual measurments i had on hand.

I have seen several documented test of scientist using percision measured glass rod that is weighted left to sit in a window for XXX years and they come back to measure the deflection of the rod. In every case it has shown the rod doesnt move. I dug further into this and found out one lab was using a piece of 19 mm quartz rod to do this test. The problem i had with this was the misrepresented material as they replaced low temp soft glass with quartz in rod form that was 9x the thickness of window glass from the 1800s. Coming up with a test designed to prove what you want it to prove and not the true science behind it is pure bullshit in my book. As to the egyptian glass comments. You are comparing window glass that has been sitting in direct sunlight for 100s of years with ripples that cause a prism effect and can heat the glass to a higher temp than the ambiant air that surrounds it, to glass that has been burried in a supporting layer of sand or encased in a pyramid underground in a controlled cooler enviroment.

Either way these discussions are getting silly.

[Aussie]

I can't get hairy dwarf sex out of my mind now, thanks guys!

[VertigoGlass]

Rich next time you are at pacific art glass take some pics of the rackpack glass they have there in both color and clear and i think you will find many of the same patterns.

[Mac Maestro]

You guys are not accounting for one important fact:

The winters were so terrible back then that they repeatedly turned the house temperature up to six hundred degrees.

[OracleGlassArts]

Glass, is like glass man, ya know?
Water is a liquid though!

[J Howard]

i'll have what he's having. and make it a double

[Greymatter Glass]

http://www.greymatter.org/pandas/brushiebat.gif

[Ronin]

I'm just curious, Grey, what you had to google to come up with that picture.

[Julian]

He googled 'pictures that have been used widely on humor related forums, social networks and discussion sites for the past 5-6 years'.

or maybe brush bat.

[Jestr]

I love this thread and all like all of them.

But what I ponder isn't glass was not think really water for what make stick window flow. But rather isn't glass wishing really as of can melting through as wanting think to do make look more like?

Isn't that the true spirit of Christmas?

[Ronin]

I'll have what he's having

[richsantaclaus]

Sitting at a Starbucks in West Virginia today on my way to Maine for 2 weeks camping by the ocean. Mer - take a chill pill!!!!! I am TRYING to show the group different windows i come across for discussion about glass. I had hoped to simply show our group what I see through my lens AND try to compare physical evidence through my photography - THEN try to discuss it. I am NOT playing ANY games but sharing with others.

Moving on, I have seen the same patterns at Pacific Art Glass but never looked closely at them before - thanks for the heads-up!!! I asked the head guy over the window replacement what he knew bout the panes of glass that were originally installed there and he told me that they were mostly all purchased from the same company but couldn't tell me the name of the company.

Question to the group - do you want me to stop uploading pictures of 100 year old (or older) windows I see on my vacation?

Rich

[Aussie]

I'll have what he's having

I know, I know!

[mer]

damn santa, did you really just *tell* me what to do and then add a ton of !!!!! if you hadn't brought me that lego working model of an engine and chassis back in 1981 i would have converted to Judaism and banned you by now.

[Greymatter Glass]

http://www.greymatter.org/pandas/spivey.jpg

[Aussie]

WHOA whoa! Chill, mer!

[mer]

6bMLrA_0O5I

[Johan]

Grey, you post the bet pictures. You should get a badge for that.

Rich, If you really want to be scientific about it then set up and experiment with two planes of glass the same size, from the same stock, made at the same time. Set the control up in a zero gravity environment. Set the variable plate in a vacuum sealed container that you can control the gravity in. Of course I don't know of such an instrument, but i'm sure they exist, try MIT. Now try many different variations in gravity. Amp that sucker up as far as you can possibly go. This ought to speed up the variable of time for you.

If glass can flow, then at some higher gravitational force that you can control, you should be able to make glass flow. Maybe it will take 10 years or maybe you can create conditions just right to make it flow right in front of your face.

BTW... your hypothesis is glass can flow at or around room temperature.

[Bunyip]

You can't control gravity with the current state of the art, unless you manage to get your hands on some neutronium.

What you CAN do is simulate it - with a centrifuge.

[Johan]

Centrifuge is a great idea. Of course it would have to be pretty darn powerful, but its definitely a good place to start.

[faded]

http://www.stumbleupon.com/su/6e2aJy/twentytwowords.com/2012/06/18/slow-motion-footage-of-ladies-faces-in-gale-force-wind/





:hypnodisk

[Julian]

killing myself, brb

[Lmwfy]

6bMLrA_0O5I

<3

[Julian]

http://i.imgur.com/1lCQi.jpg

[menty666]

Windows only flow like that when you use HHO gas to melt them.

Do you think we could power our torches with HHO? I mean, water and electricity to make hydrogen and oxygen! Down with the gas suppliers!

[Bunyip]

Oh noes now we're really in for it... WHY TOM OH WHY WOULD YOU DO THIS TOM!!!?!!

[richsantaclaus]

Mer - you crack me up! Thanks!

In PA now but I couldn't find any old barns that still had(have) windows.

At this point, the SM is over for me but the photography of old windows (100 years or older) is still on my list of things to do to SHARE with you all as visual stuff for us to look at.

I'll not go to the solid/liquid issue anymore and let it rest for myself.

Thanks

Rich

[mer]

thx rich lol. so, at the risk of belaboring a dull point i would suggest that possibly you have been examining rectangular panes exclusively? perhaps an examination of stained glass windows would be a good addition to your research. the effect of gravity would lead all of the panels of various shapes and orientations to slump down with gravity if the glass was moving. i believe that you will find thick ends oriented in all different directions to suit the design. this would demonstrate the effect of the process of manufacture that we have been trying to explain. if they are all slumping with gravity and time you may send me a hat in the mail, i will supply my own salt.

[Natedizzle]

But I want a picture of you tapping on a window...

Could you talks one please? At least a car window?

Are you driving a PT Cruiser? I hope so!

Thanks

Nathan

[Aussie]

I have proof that gas is a liquid!!!!
I just sharted!

[richsantaclaus]

I had too many people on the tour of the Shaker Village OR I sure would have taped!

Yes, all pix have been flat panes because I never considered other shapes!

Thanks!

[J Howard]

Are you driving a PT Cruiser? I hope so!






i think i just pissed my pants

[ALIEN!]

retards, glass is a GAS, DUH, why do you think it's so clear. Rich's windows are wavy because the gases weren't as pure back then, everyone knows that.

[Julian]

Is this something I should plan for, like we should make pieces that are going to be hung outside for 200 years thicker at the top just in case?

[ALIEN!]

make em hangable from both ends and let the end user deal with "rotating the tires" every 100 years or so

[richsantaclaus]

In PA today at a mill that was 140 years old, none of the original windows had any waves in them whatsoever! In an Arby's as I type so can't upload pix today.

[Julian]

Did you get some good photos?

I'd love to check out more old windows... I always love photographing old buildings and whatnot, but haven't ever thought of zeroing in on the glass unless there's something cool like wobbly patterned blocks or stained glass.

[Bunyip]

for the record: Rich is a good egg despite whatever disagreements there may be. Just wanted to say that right out loud. =)

[richsantaclaus]

Chris - I am blushing!

Mc Connell's Mill in PA is where this window pix was taken and the State Curator told me it was about 140 years old. This pane was an original pane. I tried to get a background where there were ripples BUT there weren't any!



Btw, we are in southern New York at a Starbucks and it's 8:39pm local time. Waiting for 30 min then off to WalMart for overnight parking t sleep in the Scion.

nighty-nighty all!

Rich

[Greymatter Glass]

Oh I know. He's done a lot and contributed a lot to the marble world and gets all the respect he's due....


doesn't mean he can't stir the pot and take the shit like every one else.


I am truly dumbfounded as to why this is a debate... Rich, you've seen marbles that are over 100 years old, why haven't they all flowed together or deformed?

Also, just because a building is old and the glass is old doesn't mean the glass is original. Tour guides are a source of novel information and entertainment - they're not always a valid historical source. They can be, but really... who cares if a window was replaced? Who would even keep track of that? Sure, there's a paper trail sometimes... but unless they were there when the work was done they probably wouldn't know about it, and may only assume it's old because it looks old, and will say it is with no actual proof to back up their info.

Glass breaks, it's that simple. Weather, vandals, accidents... restoration glass is made because there's a need for it. You wouldn't want to replace a 150 year old pane of glass with modern float glass if it would make a historical site look different, and after 15-20 years exposed to the elements it would be almost impossible to judge the actual age of the glass to any accuracy under 100 years.

[Mr. Wonka]

Damn Rich, McConnell’s Mills is about a half hour / 45 minutes from us… It would have been cool to hook up. If you’re in the area on the way home, be sure to give us a call!

Tom
(724) 791-2100

[richsantaclaus]

Good points Doug - I made sure the pane of glass I took a picture of did not have any marks as if it were re-glazed and was an original pane. I am trying my best to provide pictures of original glass panes for our group to see. There were many panes that were clearly glass replacements but not the one in my pix.

I hope to continue to keep my pix as accurate as I can but of course I might be fooled.

[richsantaclaus]

Damn, I wish I had known Tom it sure would have been fun to meet you in person!

After 2 weeks by the beach in Maine, we are headed west to Wisconsin, then south to West Virginia/Ohio, then to Arkansas for a marble show then back to California.

Rich