ABR Color Melter 3000: A quick and bitter review

[hedcraft]

I'm so pissed at ABR and Paragon right now, I just need to vent at you guys for a minute.

Near the beginning of this year, I bought a CM 3000 furnace from ABR. They advertise it as a collaborative design between them and Paragon, but it's basically a Paragon Vulcan with a hole cut in it. In the roughly 6 months since we got it, it has been used about 6 times. During 4 of those 6 times an element burned out, basically ruining a $100 crucible and a days work. Every time it was a different element, all of them factory installed. I emailed ABR, who passed me on to Paragon. Paragon sent me 2 new elements, which was pretty cool since they're $50 a piece. Since 4 elements have burned out, it still doesn't do me much good though.

Out of desperation I emailed the Legendary Dudley Giberson, praying he could help me turn this thing into something usable. Along with some technical info, this was his verbatim response:

"Hope this is of some help. You have purchased a piece of "poor" technology."


There's pretty much nothing I can do now but write off that $1800 as an incredibly expensive learning opportunity, and maybe try to build a fort or something with this dilapidated piece of junk. I probably wouldn't be so filled with hate and rage over it normally, but this thing was supposed to be this big huge gift to my girlfriend (a soft glass worker) and I just spent 14 hours listening to her complain about what a piece of shit it is, so I'm in a pretty piss-poor mood about it.

I'm posting this in the hopes that someone else hoping to cheap out on their first furnace can learn from my mistake. There's a reason wire furnaces are so cheap, and it's not a good one.

I mostly stopped buying from ABR for unrelated reasons, but it is worth mentioning that the people there have never been anything less than totally awesome to deal with.

[AlexSchmalex]

That's way shitty dude. I dont know much about furnaces but with ceramic kilns in the past that quality of element you replace with was a big factor in how long they last. You shouldn't have to buy better ones from the start but keep in mind a kiln shell is pretty much a kiln shell. If the bricks are intact and there are no gaps it should be very useable.

[daveabr]

I've heard a few people have element issues, but Paragon has always been great about replacing them.

We've run 2 of the Color Melters here probably 25 or more times each. We've never replaced an element. I've also heard the same from some others.

Sorry you were disappointed. It is admittedly a cheaper option to the other furnaces out there. But, we've had lots of positive return on it also, including our own. But, it is what it is. Glad to hear Paragon was helpful. We don't warranty them, they do. So, we have to rely on manufacturers having good service also.

Anyway, sorry you were bummed on it. I've had a lot of good experience with ours. Wish it'd been the same for you.

[hedcraft]

Yea, the elements are the big weak link with this furnace I think. Not just the quality, but the way they're installed. I don't like to keep quoting private emails, but Mr. Giberson really knows his stuff in this regard, and this is what he said when I asked if this furnace was salvagable:

"First of all Kanthal wire was never designed to do what you are asking it to do. It may be rated for 2300˚F but you are taking the elements way past that temperature because they are in a groove. The groove is like a kiln within a kiln. It is the temperature in the groove that is cooking your elements. When the temperature in the furnace reaches 2300 it is quite possible the temperature in the groove is 2400+.

If you were to keep the temperature of the furnace to 2100 tops then the elements would last a few melts. The problem with that scenario is you cannot really make good glass at 2100. So there you have it. "

It's worth noting that after each element burned out, they actually melted into the firebrick and had to be chipped out. Doing so ruined the groove they were in, so the replacements were just tacked to the wall with J-pins. Not one replacement element has burned out, while 4 out of 4 of the factory installed elements in grooves did.
That's the part that upsets me. This furnace is advertised as capable of maintaining 2300 for long periods, but it's made of parts designed to peak at 2300 for a few seconds, installed in ways that significantly increase the chance of failure. It's a moped that's being sold as a Harley.

I'm planning to strip it down to the shell, upgrade the elements, and replace the controller. I built our first glory hole, and in all honesty, I would almost pay the price of this thing to never have to cut another firebrick again. I've already trashed 4 elements and 2 crucibles. There's no reason not to go full retard at this point.

[daveabr]

Good luck man. Really too bad it went that way for ya. If you ever need anything, let me know. I'd jump on the oppurtunity to make it up to you.

[mer]

i would like to say that considering the level of frustration here this is an amazingly civil thread. i would like to compliment you both on being able to discuss this so respectfully, i hope others will take note. sorry about the issues, best of luck.

[istandalone24/7]

Dave, and abr in general are always great to deal with ime.

[hedcraft]

LOL Dave's an awesome guy and they usually do whatever they can to help when things go wrong, so I don't want to be a complete hater. This is just one of those things that's too big to solve easily without someone eating it, and I've been around long enough to know it would cost way more than this thing is worth to make that guy not me.
Plus I get to tear it apart and try to make some kind of overly elaborate jerry-rigged monstrosity, so that does make me a little bit happy..

[istandalone24/7]

i guess that's serendipity for ya!!

[somewhere]

If i can ask what are you melting and what temperatures are you melting at?

[Ness]

Shit man that sux to hear, but it sounds like ur making the best of a negative situation. If it were me, I def would not stop bugging Paragon about the failed elements, at least! As a consumer, you must do everything in ur power to protect yourself! Dont forget 'the squeaky wheel gets the oil' : )

[Torch-Bug]

There's no reason not to go full retard at this point.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6WHBO_Qc-Q

[Abe Fleishman]

hedcraft if u need any help I could help also. If your plan was to only melt soft glass then this type of unit should work fine. If u need any advise about this unit let me know I can help.
Abe

[smutboy420]

That kiln with in a kiln in the grove and the surface temp of the wire can even be as much as 400 degrees hotter then the air tempature in the kiln.

I know on the electric furnace I make for metal casters which even has embedded elements. any thing over 2,000F I always advise to bring it up slow once they reach 2,000F then bump it up and let the temp stabilize before bumping it up a lil bit more till at the temp some one wants to hold it at. that. If I were to set on to 2200 and just let it get there from room temp on full blast by the time the crucible and thermocouple were 2200f the elements would be a few 100 degrees hotter and in the danger zone. esp when the elements are real new and don't have a thick oxide layer on them yet. With an oxide layer some times the elements can be a bit past there melting point but still not turn to liquid and flow.


Dont know if this info will help much or not. but figured I'd throw it out there in case it might help you any.

[hedcraft]

Thanks for the advice and offers guys. I'm pretty new to soft glass equipment, so I really appreciate the help.

If i can ask what are you melting and what temperatures are you melting at?
We're using Studio 96 nuggets and heating to 2300, which is right when the problem starts.
Now that you mention it, I remember a passing comment from a long time back that this brand can off-gas more than some others. I wonder if maybe the off-gas combined with the extra heat in the grooves is just more than the elements can handle.

I might buy a set of elements to test a few brands and see if it makes a difference before I start ripping into it. It could explain alot of what's going on.

[somewhere]

We're using Studio 96 nuggets and heating to 2300, which is right when the problem starts.

That makes sense. You are melting way hotter then you need to. With spectrum in a wire furnace you should never go above working temperature 2000f to 2100f and your elements will last a long time. Your just asking a wire melter to do something it wasn't designed to do. Simple fix and I'm sorry to say it sounds like user error. The boro melts go hot but no one really expects elements to last when melting boro. Repair the groves reinstall elements and start over.

Yes the premium spectrum nuggets can be corrosive. It will eat your lid and walls but I have never seen a problem with it eating element wire.

[loydb]

I'll be watching this with interest. There will be a crucible kiln in my future, good to know this is one to avoid.

[somewhere]

I'll be watching this with interest. There will be a crucible kiln in my future, good to know this is one to avoid.

I completely disagree. This is an unfair review. I checked out the specs and if you think there is a better option tell me what it is and I'll explain. With a type s thermocouple and 4.5" thick brick all around it looks no worse then every other option and better then some.

I have nothing invested in these crucible kilns I think they are all under insulated and under powered but in comparison this one is just as good as any I see.

[loydb]

How is reporting his experience with one an "unfair review"? Are you calling him a liar? Thanks, I'll take personal experience over "checked out the specs."

I have no idea what the better option is, I'm not buying one in 2012. But whatever I end up getting, it *won't* be this one.

[Bo Diddles]

Did you even read somewhere's previous post?

[JBob]

How is reporting his experience with one an "unfair review"? Are you calling him a liar? Thanks, I'll take personal experience over "checked out the specs."

I have no idea what the better option is, I'm not buying one in 2012. But whatever I end up getting, it *won't* be this one.

felt similarly, even though im not even considering one i think that having 4/6 elements getting scorched in 6 firings can only be faulty manufacturing or it is not being operated properly.

[VertigoGlass]

What im curious about is the OP said that the original elements keep burning out and the replacements havent burned out once. Well to me logic would.say replace all the originals and go from there. Shit happens mayne paragon got a bad batch or mislabled elements. There are others out there using these wire furnaces with great success .

[Greymatter Glass]

So last week I bought a new vehicle to tow my 28' speed boat....things went well at first, got the hitch installed, and put some gas in it, hooked up the trailer... about the time I got to the interstate the transmission started making this weird squealing sound, then the engine died and caught fire....

The '12 Toyota Prius C is a HORRIBLE car.

No one should ever buy one.


:P

[Bo Diddles]

Thank you Doug I thought I was losing my mind for a sec there..

[kage]

any thing over 2,000F I always advise to bring it up slow once they reach 2,000F then bump it up and let the temp stabilize before bumping it up a lil bit more till at the temp some one wants to hold it at.

from what I understand, smutty said basically what I was gonna say. now I've never melted a batch in any crucible kiln from anywhere, but i've done some casting so I guess I'll just throw in my .02 fwiw. the same sort of principles apply. if I were to go up to say 1800, i would hold at 1000 for a half hour just to let the elements stabilize, then shoot up to 1800. elements will last a lot longer this way from what I've been told. on that note, just on my sentry express for my daily boro work i have two programs set to 1050. One program sits at 1000 for several hours before i bump it to 1050. This cycle goes quick and it stabilizes at 1050 quick. The Second program goes full ramp to 1050. Once it gets to 1050 the timer starts but the temp reading usually bounces around from as low as 1035 and will go as high as 1070 for at least 10 min before it can sit comfortably at 1050. so long story short...just from my experiences holding at slightly lower temps before the final ramp can really have an impact on the life of your elements. kinda like doug was saying in his own way ;) ...sure the speedometer of my 2002 ford explorer reads that it can go over 120mph but when i hit 75 it starts shaking

[somewhere]

With any furnace care has to be taken on the way up. This needs to be a controlled ramp. If you just turn it on and try to go to temp you will certainly have failure. At 1,000f you have a quartz inversion that needs to be babied otherwise you will wreck the crucible (yes quartz inversion 980f to 1100f) Anyone who buys and uses one of these should do some research.

Just to be clear this is an unfair review and premature failure was caused by operating error. As stated before if someone can show me a crucible kiln melter that is significantly better I will be seriously surprised.

[dustyg]

Drew Fritts runs his 24/7, but backs off working temps in the evening.

More info on Drew's site. (http://frittsartglass.com/marbles/articles/Crucible.html)

[labrie]

I use system 96 at our hot shop in a wire melter, we just keep it at 2170 and run the furnace 24/7 for 3-4 months at a time. When we charge we preheat the nuggets in the annealer to 1000, it is only a 45lb'er but works for us. No need to heat it beyond this as the glass is ready to use once it fines out. I have a video by Mark Lauckner on electric element furnace construction. It is available at mayneislandglass.com may be of some use during your rebuild. Sorry about the hassles. Let me know if you have any other questions I might be able to help. Paul

labrieglass@msn.com
labrieglass.com

[aREa541]

Seems like a good chance you might get lemonade out of this situation yet... Good luck bro.

[hedcraft]

With spectrum in a wire furnace you should never go above working temperature 2000f to 2100f and your elements will last a long time. Your just asking a wire melter to do something it wasn't designed to do.

Not according to both the advertising literature here:
http://www.dichroicimagery.com/product_info.php?products_id=93448
claiming a max operating temperature of 2350, as well as the manufacturer who I spoke with on the phone and claimed it would be workable.
Spectrum recommends a charging temperature of 2200. We tried that the first firing, but the glass was seedy, inconsistent and unusable. Referring once more to my previous quote from Dudley Giberson:

"If you were to keep the temperature of the furnace to 2100 tops then the elements would last a few melts. The problem with that scenario is you cannot really make good glass at 2100. So there you have it. "

For the record, I do agree that we demanded more of this thing than it was able. But we only did so because it was sold to me as capable of handling those demands.

[hedcraft]

With any furnace care has to be taken on the way up. This needs to be a controlled ramp. If you just turn it on and try to go to temp you will certainly have failure. At 1,000f you have a quartz inversion that needs to be babied otherwise you will wreck the crucible (yes quartz inversion 980f to 1100f) Anyone who buys and uses one of these should do some research.

Just to be clear this is an unfair review and premature failure was caused by operating error. As stated before if someone can show me a crucible kiln melter that is significantly better I will be seriously surprised.

We have always done a controlled ramp to temp, and have not had any crucible issues.

Please explain how I'm being unfair. We used this thing entirely within the advertised specs, according to advice from both the manufacturer and industry professionals, confirmed on more than one occasion with both companies that it could handle the temperature we were using, and it failed at a point below what what was promised.

If the max temperature it can handle is 2100, then it's max temperature should be listed as 2100.
If the maximum operating temperature damages kiln elements within minutes and renders the furnace unusable, then that is not the maximum operating temperature.



For those interested, after I replace the latest damaged element (the last one seated in a groove) I'm going to switch to Spruce Pine cullet and see how far I can punish the pinned elements before they burn out.
If there's anything worth hearing I'll start a new, less contentious thread.

[somewhere]

All I'm saying is that if you try to run any of these crucible kilns at the temperatures you are it will fail. Yes it can reach those temperatures as you found out but it can not maintain those temps period. Your blaming the company that built it but it doesn't matter who built it. They are all basically the same thing. You may try running A1 wire instead of kanthal but really your just asking to much out of a wire melter. I know you can melt cullet at 2100 and even less and have perfect glass. You are heating it up to the point of valence change and causing those bubbles to appear. If the glass is clean and bubble free before you melt it then you should have bubble clean glass after you melt it as long as you don't change the valence. No reason or need to cook and squeeze cullet.

Just for the hell of it after you instal new elements in the groves melt at 2,000 or less and only go to 2,100 when working. Those elements will last at least 3 to 4 months if not longer. Do make sure you clean and chip out any old melted element as this will cause premature failure. Its always better to rebuild before a melt down.

I don't think you will get much use out of the pinned elements when they get hot they get soft and i imagine then saggy to the point of shorting out on each other. This will cause them to overheat and melt down. Never change one element change them all at the same time.

[faded]

All I'm saying is that if you try to run any of these crucible kilns at the temperatures you are it will fail. Yes it can reach those temperatures as you found out but it can not maintain those temps period. Your blaming the company that built it but it doesn't matter who built it. They are all basically the same thing. You may try running A1 wire instead of kanthal but really your just asking to much out of a wire melter. I know you can melt cullet at 2100 and even less and have perfect glass. You are heating it up to the point of valence change and causing those bubbles to appear. If the glass is clean and bubble free before you melt it then you should have bubble clean glass after you melt it as long as you don't change the valence. No reason or need to cook and squeeze cullet.

Just for the hell of it after you instal new elements in the groves melt at 2,000 or less and only go to 2,100 when working. Those elements will last at least 3 to 4 months if not longer. Do make sure you clean and chip out any old melted element as this will cause premature failure. Its always better to rebuild before a melt down.

I don't think you will get much use out of the pinned elements when they get hot they get soft and i imagine then saggy to the point of shorting out on each other. This will cause them to overheat and melt down. Never change one element change them all at the same time.

so why is it being advertised otherwise? seems like bad marketing to me.


" ... It comes with the S-Type thermocouple; which will last much longer than the standard K-Type because it is suited for continuous use above 2000F degrees... " http://www.dichroicimagery.com/product_info.php?products_id=93448

[somewhere]

so why is it being advertised otherwise? seems like bad marketing to me.

" ... It comes with the S-Type thermocouple; which will last much longer than the standard K-Type because it is suited for continuous use above 2000F degrees... " http://www.dichroicimagery.com/product_info.php?products_id=93448

First they are talking about the thermocouple.
Second they are talking about the upper range so yes it will run at those high temps but obviously not for long.

What besides the manufacturers claims makes you think this is any worse then any of the other crucible kiln. They are all about the same and will all give about the same results. They are just glorified kilns they are not built for the professional. They work great for short melts and many boro artists have made the best of a cheap solution. They are not built to be run full time. They are under insulated and under engineered. I would consider all these crucible kilns to be somewhat disposable. What happens when a pot breaks?

[hedcraft]

All I'm saying is that if you try to run any of these crucible kilns at the temperatures you are it will fail. Yes it can reach those temperatures as you found out but it can not maintain those temps period. Your blaming the company that built it but it doesn't matter who built it. They are all basically the same thing. You may try running A1 wire instead of kanthal but really your just asking to much out of a wire melter. I know you can melt cullet at 2100 and even less and have perfect glass. You are heating it up to the point of valence change and causing those bubbles to appear. If the glass is clean and bubble free before you melt it then you should have bubble clean glass after you melt it as long as you don't change the valence. No reason or need to cook and squeeze cullet.

Just for the hell of it after you instal new elements in the groves melt at 2,000 or less and only go to 2,100 when working. Those elements will last at least 3 to 4 months if not longer. Do make sure you clean and chip out any old melted element as this will cause premature failure. Its always better to rebuild before a melt down.

I don't think you will get much use out of the pinned elements when they get hot they get soft and i imagine then saggy to the point of shorting out on each other. This will cause them to overheat and melt down. Never change one element change them all at the same time.

Yea, I think you're right. This is all for my girlfriend and she went through a big formal apprenticeship, so every time we do something different from how she learned, it "doesn't feel right". We only need to limp by for a year or two until we can justify buying a "real" furnace anyway, so I'm sure we can make do. My main point of agitation is really that I'd asked before and after we bought it if it could handle the temperature and was always told yes..
Plus when I got the email saying I'd bought a piece of crap I was SUPER hung-over and already in a pretty hostile mood.

[hedcraft]

What happens when a pot breaks?

That's the one thing I really liked about this furnace. The bottom is connected with big turn-tabs, so if a crucible breaks, you can (supposedly) unlock it and lift the rest of the furnace off before it's damaged.
The thought of being in a room next to an open crucible of rapidly cooling glass is slightly terrifying, but less so than shelling out for a new one..

[skip]

dude too much mustache hair in the crucible. hacki should roll you and that tongue into a tight sushi roll. That is all.

[Cheese glass]

I think that perhaps using batch and not cullet is leading to off gassing of chemicals that are corrosive to the elements

Talk to Daniel at Skutt ....they have been developing ventilation for the interior of the furnace to exhaust these corrosive gasses and save element life

They developed the ventilation system for ceramics....apparently glazes also offgas corrosive fumes that eat away at the elements

I mean at the end of the day the elements only last about 20-30 days of use.....sorry to be the one to tell you this but that's the cost of melting glass with a wire furnace

If you're over it, sell the fucking thing and buy a skutt. I have 5 and have been using them for 3.5 yrs .....and 24/7 daily the last 6 months

My $0.02

[somewhere]

I think that perhaps using batch and not cullet is leading to off gassing of chemicals that are corrosive to the elements

Who said anything about batch?


Talk to Daniel at Skutt ....they have been developing ventilation for the interior of the furnace to exhaust these corrosive gasses and save element life

They developed the ventilation system for ceramics....apparently glazes also offgas corrosive fumes that eat away at the elements

Well this has me confused.

My understanding is the crucible comes to the top of the inside baffle. So there is no way any off gassing could possibly get anywhere near the elements. There needs to be some type of fiber ring around the top to keep the heat in the furnace when you open the door. Either that or the crucible comes to the top touching the underside or the big door. If I'm wrong about these store bought units I have a serious valuable upgrade for you.



I mean at the end of the day the elements only last about 20-30 days of use.....sorry to be the one to tell you this but that's the cost of melting glass with a wire furnace

If you're over it, sell the fucking thing and buy a skutt. I have 5 and have been using them for 3.5 yrs .....and 24/7 daily the last 6 months

My $0.02

Your first paragraph above seems to contradict the second. So I don't know how to even address it.

I'm happy you like the skutt I personally think both companies do a good job. Do you have any idea if there is any difference between these two kilns. I ask because I don't see it and maybe you can enlighten me.