Convenience/Production vs Art?

[ellohellcj]

Visiting abr to place an order, and notice this is on the front page.

http://www.dichroicimagery.com/product_info.php?products_id=96206

Pre-made reversals, which from the looks are pretty solid.

I guess I understand that this is not strictly/purely an art form. That there will always be production, and people doing things their own way. But coming from someone who is striving to be the best artist I can be, this just gives me a little frowny.


I understand convenience has worked it's way..everywhere.
vac-stacks and pre-made tubing is an example.
but pre-made sections, is definitely taking it one step further
I suppose I'm just interested in hearing others opinions on these.


Sorry if there's a thread on this already. I tried searching but 'pre-made' was messing up the parameters I guess. Plus, it's a new product, so meh.

[hashmasta-kut]

seems no different than using other peoples millies right? that why i dont use other peoples millies unless requested and sent to me, and also why i dont use premade line tubing and would never buy a reversal section for 22.50 :)

[JBob]

I never say this but im with Kut, its another step in pre done prep work that i just prefer not to indulge in. Art or not there's something pretty cool about knowing that you made a piece from start to finish.

I've heard some people say "if you are building a house you wouldnt cast your own screws and bolts and nails would you?" i guess that kind of fits here too...

[glasspyromania]

If you can sell more then you can make something like this would save you time allowing you to make more.

Only issue I see is it cost effective 22.50 + shipping?

I know of a few places that do prodo assembly line style they have several people making different components then one person assembling the finished product. This is just an extension of that.

[ellohellcj]

Art or not there's something pretty cool about knowing that you made a piece from start to finish.

I've heard some people say "if you are building a house you wouldnt cast your own screws and bolts and nails would you?" i guess that kind of fits here too...

Both of these, spot on.

[swillz]

Why even blow glass in the first place.

[Role]

I'd be curious if they are from the far east...

China is like a replicating machine from some science fiction story.

[gambitglass]

well if you cant do a reversal yourself you might not be too great at stacking them either.

I was thinking to start my own company that sells small marbles for production work (easy to tag on tubes, etc.) though so I suppose I'm a hypocrite if I were to bash on these. People selling millies and other stuff like this so its to me more like sub-contract work for folks that just want to do assembly but dont have shopmates or the facilities to efficiently bust out some kinds of prep.

[drewspuppet]

Why even blow glass in the first place.

Exactly. What's the point really if you are gonna buy flippin pre made reversals. I don't get it. Not surprised at where is was found for sale tho..

[JBob]

What's the point really..

money

[OracleGlassArts]

I wish I could sell just reballs for 22.50. I have to make tubing wig and reverse it onto a spoon to get 25 for mine lol

[Lyle Lanley]

i think the whole pre-made idea is pretty stupid. i agree with swillz why even blow glass.

However i do have an idea i think they should start selling pre-made bubbler can and stems that way all you have to do is seal them together, plunge the bowl, pop a carb, and then add sculpture work.. boom pre-made headys...lol what a joke

[Bo Diddles]

I pity the fool that buys this

[Role]

I pity the fool that buys this

China has co-opted Mr. T. too. :(

42632

[Mecha]

Not sure how these are cost effective at that price.

Maybe if they were, way, way tighter, with better colors, but as is, 22.50? Fuck that.

Seriously.

[menty666]

People get up in arms, but there are goblet tops and feet for sale too. I prefer the challenge of making my own.

Given I'm still learning how to put sections back together, I'm pretty sure I'd be throwing away 22.50 if I bought this stuff.

[d3rk]

Why 22.50? Why not 2.50? Seriously though. Seems like a fine line. Prefabed wig wags seems to cross it for me.

[NiRTY]

Yea, $22.50 just seems crazy to me (well the whole concept is bit looney). I have a hard time justifying 20 dollars extra for each r-ball I BUILD onto my pieces... which was the overly simplified formula I was told years ago.

Whats really lame tho.. is that its not about stackin x amount of waged up r balls till they hit the ceiling. Its about knowing where to add a spiral, how long that spiral is, what colors, where to pop the hole, amount of clear, amount of white.. and on and on and on.. artistic expression is limitless. Even if many of us are re-using the same set of techniques.. to limit your expression by buying pre-fab reversals, 'cause someone down the line said they were cool, is like giving up before even starting.

Maybe from now on I will just sell half finished pipes. Prodo, pre-bowl push. Bubs, welds are tacked and bridged, you just gotta melt it in. Heady dry pieces, just put your own marbles on it and your good to go.

For limited time only I will offer flared blow tubes $5 for 15" 9.5mm $7 for 12.7mm baller tube(this is what the pros use). Shit, lets be honest, I mean why make pipes when I can jut sell prep... cause prep-work is where its at... finished work is for nooobs.


"Hustle Prep"

[Beast]

What about if there are flaws such as bubbles? What if these reversals don't look the way you want them to when they arrive? At least you're able to regulate your own work once you have the technique down, and that means you have control over what's happening. It seems in purchasing these reversals, you lose a LOT of control, and all for what?

[gambitglass]

yeah this product is certainly stretching the limits of what should be sold. I dont think they will get many sales for these. Is it only this one color scheme? Also the size offered is quite limiting. If you were to make a multi sectioned piece its nice to have r-balls of many different sizes involved. all one size will look whak!

[coloringdan]

I can't wait untill I start seeing crappy pieces with nice reversals. I really wonder who's making these... and if it's not china then how long until they start making and selling them for pennies. I hope nobody buys these.

[JnglJnke]

I wonder if I'll see some reversal work at the gas station down the street next week...

"Hustle Prep"[/QUOTE]

^^^Made me laugh. +1

[Mecha]

Whatever. ABR selling these does nothing to detract from your work. Let those that want them buy them. It's not as if nice pieces are going to be the majority of what is made with them.

My guess? These are for the dab kids that want to jump straight to headdie oilers and inlines. Will they allow them to skip a huge part of the learning process? Yes. Will they make their janky ass work any better? No.

For those that actually have a solid skill set in building reversal pieces, I highly doubt that these will be a good option. As pointed out, you have no control over the way they look (color, number of lines, tightness, and pattern), and, as also pointed out, you have no control over the size.

Now, if say, you had a shopmate that made reballs all day and you could actually give input on colors used and the sizes you desire, well then, that might actually work to make some nice stuff. Ordering random reballs of questionable quality off the internet is probably not going to be the best way to get your prep.

Ultimately, who really cares. They don't look that great, and the price is ridiculous for what is in the picture. Focus on your own work and what you, personally, are willing to use for your creations.

[ROGUE]

I've heard some people say "if you are building a house you wouldnt cast your own screws and bolts and nails would you?" i guess that kind of fits here too...

I absolutely do not agree with that statement. Propane, oxygen, and raw glass are the screws, nails, and bolts. Premade sections is like buying the roof already made and nailing it on.

I have always had a bad taste in my mouth about premade high skill pieces. You can pretty much buy a pre made pipe and weld it all together. I guess what it really means is there is going to be some super cheap glass showing up in shops and shop owner are not going to want to pay for a pipe built from scratch. I see these things as bad bad bad for any of us that are trying to sell glass for what it is worth.

[ROGUE]

Ultimately, who really cares. They don't look that great, and the price is ridiculous for what is in the picture. Focus on your own work and what you, personally, are willing to use for your creations.

Ultimately we should all care. Basically you can buy all the parts you need to make a pipes premade. So now instead of a three hour bubbler it's a 45 minute bubbler and some newb that buys all these things is going to sell it to a shop for the price of a 45 minute pipe. When these shop owner see that they can buy pipes with nice color for third of the price they are going to stop buying the glass for the right prices. That's what I see anyway.

[Mecha]

So, buying so so reversals, with no control over color selection or size, for 22.50 each is going to lead to a high quality, lower cost end product how? You still have to know what to do with these things. The skillset to assemble them, and shape them into a nice piece complete with adornments is not going to miraculously materialize just because you shelled out 22.50 for a low end reball.

Maybe if ABR was selling them for 2.50 each, one might have to worry about the prodo wig wag capped spoon market, but people that know how to make quality work really have nothing to worry about. If you are concerned, then, as has been said many times on this site before, "step up your game". Moaning about them is not going to make them go away, and wringing your hands about the far fetched possible impact that these things will have doesn't help either. Maybe make something other than a wig wag piece, you know?

[Icarus]

Maybe make something other than a wig wag piece, you know?

Blasphemy! You sir are a heretic.

[ROGUE]

So, buying so so reversals, with no control over color selection or size, for 22.50 each is going to lead to a high quality, lower cost end product how? You still have to know what to do with these things. The skillset to assemble them, and shape them into a nice piece complete with adornments is not going to miraculously materialize just because you shelled out 22.50 for a low end reball.

Maybe if ABR was selling them for 2.50 each, one might have to worry about the prodo wig wag capped spoon market, but people that know how to make quality work really have nothing to worry about. If you are concerned, then, as has been said many times on this site before, "step up your game". Moaning about them is not going to make them go away, and wringing your hands about the far fetched possible impact that these things will have doesn't help either. Maybe make something other than a wig wag piece, you know?

Well, actually I suck lol. I'm brand new, so yes I definately need to step up my game. However when I go into a shop( I have seen this personally) and somebody is selling dabbers, domes, dishes, pipes, and so on with premade sections and selling them as cheap as I can sell clear pieces then it majorly affects me. The skill set you need to use premade pieces seems like it would be a whole lot less then actually make vac stacks and cane and reverse balls. from what I can see all you need to learn is heat control and welding and you would be good to go. I am complaining for no other reason than it is affecting my wallet.

Here's what I see. Yes, the price is 22.50, but... IN order to make a reverse ball from scratch your talking about at least an hour of work. How much do you value your time, material, and work. I would say that a reverse ball is worth way more than 22.50.

I think it's much easier for a vet to say step up your game, but when you're a rookie and you see people using premade sections and calling the work their own, it sucks. I guess I'm just being a bitchy little whiner.

[FizZle]

lol wow...anyone need some pre-made honeycombs? only 20.00 ;) what a joke

[Mecha]

An hour for a reball? Damn. At that rate, no line work is worth the money unless you are on J Lee's or Eusheen's level with regards to reversals and stacking.

And welding reballs together and shaping them into a nice piece is actually a lot harder than just twisting up a reball in my opinion. A nice piece is more than reballs welded together. It needs balance, flow, good proportioning, a nice transition from one color to the next, etc. A noob taking a stack of reversals and welding them together is just creating a franken pipe, not some sort of piece that competes with one from someone that actually knows how to work glass.

I would not say you are being a "bitchy little whiner". You are concerned, and I totally get that. However, as a novice, your overall understanding of what it takes to make a nice, multi section piece is limited and your fear of these prodo reballs is unfounded, that's all man. Don't worry so much about what others are doing. Keep your nose to the grindstone and you will find your own path. Maybe it won't be wig wag pieces, but really, is that such a bad thing?

[hashmasta-kut]

depending on the reball, the time should be between 5-20 minutes i would imagine, maybe 25-30 for a mongo one. and mecha is right on about prep vs assembly. just because i can make nice tubing does not make me a good artist. making good reballs is tougher for sure, but i still suck i guess :)

[Dan Kooper]

Damn. Nobody told me these were worth 20$ each! I just sold a 7 sEction reball piece with a vortex for 50$. And my capped spoons are 15$. I don't get how you make money off 22.50 a ball. They are paying 22.50 to MAKE a capped spoon. Not to mention time/gas/clear. Paying 22.50 to have the chance to make one. I would sell them a spoon already made to them for 20$. Where's the profit on these? A 7 section piece is 150$ to get the reballs pre made. This doesn't make sense.

Anybody see the review??lol

[lcglassart]

One of my former apprentices and I were discussing this very thing yesterday. About 3 years ago there were several people selling premade reversals for about $5 a section. These were stick stacked tubes with good colors and the ones I got at least had no bubbles or flaws (I did lose a couple slamming them into the flame too fast). I only bought a dozen once cause I thought at $5 how can you go wrong ? I used these in prodo work and it paid off in the end, but as many have said, it took the 'ME' out of the work. No way I would pay 22.50, but at 5, I can barely produce them in my shop for that so why not save time and money on prep ? There is a certain quality line and it seems that a lot of blowers won't add anyone else's work to their pieces, but as the number of producing artists grows there will always be 'new' segments in the premade and prep markets. I see no difference between premade reversals and premade tube, millies, marbles, or even lattes and stringers. When I first started (and could only make turd shaped chillis) I often traded my time pulling stringers, twisting latte's, and decorating sections for the guy that taught me and others. This introduced me to using other's prep pretty much right from the start. Don't know about everyone else, but after more than 10yrs behind the torch, I welcome others to do my prep to save my wrists and joints. So overall, I'd say that as long as the work was done in the US - buy all the prep you can get your hands on as cheap as you can find it and prodo, prodo, prodo - you can still do headies all by yourself.

[ROGUE]

An hour for a reball? Damn. At that rate, no line work is worth the money unless you are on J Lee's or Eusheen's level with regards to reversals and stacking.

And welding reballs together and shaping them into a nice piece is actually a lot harder than just twisting up a reball in my opinion. A nice piece is more than reballs welded together. It needs balance, flow, good proportioning, a nice transition from one color to the next, etc. A noob taking a stack of reversals and welding them together is just creating a franken pipe, not some sort of piece that competes with one from someone that actually knows how to work glass.

I would not say you are being a "bitchy little whiner". You are concerned, and I totally get that. However, as a novice, your overall understanding of what it takes to make a nice, multi section piece is limited and your fear of these prodo reballs is unfounded, that's all man. Don't worry so much about what others are doing. Keep your nose to the grindstone and you will find your own path. Maybe it won't be wig wag pieces, but really, is that such a bad thing?

As a long time glass connoisseur I completely get what you're saying about unskilled pipes and newbs using premade sections, but I just don't think the majority of the general public can tell the difference between good work and not so good work. I mean people buy fake roor's and think they're for gawd sake lol.

My hour comment was considering everything involved in making a RB, including all the prep work. I can't make reverse balls, but my roomate can knock them out in a few minutes, as long as he has the prep work done. I try to time his work so I know how long stuff should eventually take me to make and when he starts from scratch it seems like it takes right around an hour.

I also don't want to throw anybody under the bus, but there is a person on this forum that sells things to my local shops such as dabbers, dishes, domes and oil rigs. However all of his color is premade and he sells his stuff for WAAAAAAAAY too cheap. He's selling full color wig wag domes for cheaper than I can sell solid color or clear domes. So now all the shops want everything cheaper just because of this person.

You are right though, I must step up my game so I can be competitive. The problem is the time it takes to learn things to make me competitive and I'm not making enough money to replenish my stock so it's hard to be able to afford to keep up. I honestly have never worried about what other people are doing, but I've also never been in a situation where I just didn't take to the medium like a duck in water. Glass has a much longer learning curve than anything I have ever tried. I really like glass, and I'm not a salesman. I'm not a big fan of making art to sell, I just like to be creative and make things and if they sell they sell. So I make a batch or spoons, chillums, dabbers, and dishes and sell them to the shops just so I can replenish my supplies. Other than that I makes things I want to make.

Mecha, completely off topic, are you really in Tokyo? I live nearby for 4 years.

[daveabr]

we supply all of our customers, with what they need and/or want. do we think these are for everyone? of course not. this forum is more of a artist community, than a prodo shop community. so i get the backlash. but, we only get these things because someone has asked us to. when someone preorders by the hundreds, you get it done for them. so, as a result, we have them, and put them on our site. don't like em, don't buy em. we get it.

there are a lot of prodo shops out there, that this type of stuff works well for them. mostly, production tube shops would want these for tops and what not. definitely not going to market these to independent artists. so, it is what it is.

[ROGUE]

Damn. Nobody told me these were worth 20$ each! I just sold a 7 sEction reball piece with a vortex for 50$. And my capped spoons are 15$. I don't get how you make money off 22.50 a ball. They are paying 22.50 to MAKE a capped spoon. Not to mention time/gas/clear. Paying 22.50 to have the chance to make one. I would sell them a spoon already made to them for 20$. Where's the profit on these? A 7 section piece is 150$ to get the reballs pre made. This doesn't make sense.

Anybody see the review??lol

I was taking into acount the time and supplies you are saving, but if you are selling your stuff for that cheap then I'm basically forced to eat my words.

There is an online store right now you can look at that has RB domes with clear joints from $120 to $230. That seems like you could buy a $23 RB put it on a $2 joint and make $100 profit right off the bat.

[ROGUE]

we supply all of our customers, with what they need and/or want. do we think these are for everyone? of course not. this forum is more of a artist community, than a prodo shop community. so i get the backlash. but, we only get these things because someone has asked us to. when someone preorders by the hundreds, you get it done for them. so, as a result, we have them, and put them on our site. don't like em, don't buy em. we get it.

there are a lot of prodo shops out there, that this type of stuff works well for them. mostly, production tube shops would want these for tops and what not. definitely not going to market these to independent artists. so, it is what it is.

Well, who the heck can blame you? You are providing a service, I don't find fault with that at all.

[ROGUE]

One of my former apprentices and I were discussing this very thing yesterday. About 3 years ago there were several people selling premade reversals for about $5 a section. These were stick stacked tubes with good colors and the ones I got at least had no bubbles or flaws (I did lose a couple slamming them into the flame too fast). I only bought a dozen once cause I thought at $5 how can you go wrong ? I used these in prodo work and it paid off in the end, but as many have said, it took the 'ME' out of the work. No way I would pay 22.50, but at 5, I can barely produce them in my shop for that so why not save time and money on prep ? There is a certain quality line and it seems that a lot of blowers won't add anyone else's work to their pieces, but as the number of producing artists grows there will always be 'new' segments in the premade and prep markets. I see no difference between premade reversals and premade tube, millies, marbles, or even lattes and stringers. When I first started (and could only make turd shaped chillis) I often traded my time pulling stringers, twisting latte's, and decorating sections for the guy that taught me and others. This introduced me to using other's prep pretty much right from the start. Don't know about everyone else, but after more than 10yrs behind the torch, I welcome others to do my prep to save my wrists and joints. So overall, I'd say that as long as the work was done in the US - buy all the prep you can get your hands on as cheap as you can find it and prodo, prodo, prodo - you can still do headies all by yourself.

I agree with what you are saying. Prep work sucks. To me there seems to be a big difference between a person that has been blowing glass for ten years and is fully capable of making their own prep and somebody that been blowing glass for a few months, doesn't know many tech's, and uses somebody elses's work and call it their own. There's tons of examples online of people that use premade prep, but put their name on the glass like they made it. It probably seems silly that I am against it like this, maybe I'm just jealous of other newbs work that looks better than mine because of somebody else making it.

[Dan Kooper]

I live in Michigan. I can't sell a reball capped spoon for more than 15$.

Dave. How are those reballs clear-less? Solid color. No clear at all. Not even sleeved? That's what I read on the description.

[ROGUE]

I live in Michigan. I can't sell a reball capped spoon for more than 15$.

Dave. How are those reballs clear-less? Solid color. No clear at all. Not even sleeved? That's what I read on the description.

Wow, I knew Florida was way over priced, but I didn't realize it was that bad.

[lcglassart]

we supply all of our customers, with what they need and/or want. do we think these are for everyone? of course not. this forum is more of a artist community, than a prodo shop community. so i get the backlash. but, we only get these things because someone has asked us to. when someone preorders by the hundreds, you get it done for them. so, as a result, we have them, and put them on our site. don't like em, don't buy em. we get it.

there are a lot of prodo shops out there, that this type of stuff works well for them. mostly, production tube shops would want these for tops and what not. definitely not going to market these to independent artists. so, it is what it is.

Props to ABR here.

If someone ordered ANYTHING from me by the hundred, I would certainly make their order and some extra to 'test' the market beyond that one client. Not to mention recycling all my own seconds. I got a few good laughs out of some of the other responses/opinions this morning - and I LOVE the 'prep hustla' idea ! $2 flared 12mmx2mmx16in tubes ALL DAY :-)

[Dan Kooper]

That is wholesale. They go for 30$ in the shop. And I've been Making them for years. Not janky at all. Prefect terminations. Even some with Slyme and Steel wool. That's why I do clear/solid now. I get the same price for a half clear reball.

[Dan Kooper]

I'm probably ripping myself off but my shops take care of me. So I take care of them. Loyalty is worth more than $$ I can sell a couple spoons for 25$ each or I can sell 50 for 15$. Reball spoons take me 15 minutes when everything is prepped. 1$ an minute after prep aint bad.
And I hate to admit it but I have a china box of 25 for that reason. Someone buying a 15$ spoon won't care. They want cheap. So I give it to them.

[ROGUE]

That is wholesale. They go for 30$ in the shop. And I've been Making them for years. Not janky at all. Prefect terminations. Even some with Slyme and Steel wool. That's why I do clear/solid now. I get the same price for a half clear reball.

Yeah I figured you meant wholesale. RB spoons here are $20 to $50 wholesale with most of them at $35. Hell, a chillum goes for $20.

I'm not gonna tell you how much my wonky fumed spoons go for, you'd be pissed!

[JBob]

we supply all of our customers, with what they need and/or want. do we think these are for everyone? of course not. this forum is more of a artist community, than a prodo shop community. so i get the backlash. but, we only get these things because someone has asked us to. when someone preorders by the hundreds, you get it done for them. so, as a result, we have them, and put them on our site. don't like em, don't buy em. we get it.

there are a lot of prodo shops out there, that this type of stuff works well for them. mostly, production tube shops would want these for tops and what not. definitely not going to market these to independent artists. so, it is what it is.

boom, lots of my thoughts but said in a much more proper manner...i dont really think anyone thought people were buying these to cap spoons with either...

[daveabr]

No clear, because they are made on color tubing. Don't appear to be sleeved. Surfaces are really smooth actually.

[lcglassart]

As a long time glass connoisseur I completely get what you're saying about unskilled pipes and newbs using premade sections, but I just don't think the majority of the general public can tell the difference between good work and not so good work.

The 'general public' ? LOL - I deal with shop owners that don't know the difference between china made and hand made. John Q. Public usually has NO CLUE what goes into a piece - it's either cool and they want it, or not PERIOD. Over the years I have found several color patterns that ALWAYS sell and others that just don't. Any artist who spends very much time worrying over what the public thinks isn't going to get very far. The whole point of art is to express YOURSELF ! To hell with the critics, haters, and competition.

[lcglassart]

RB spoons here are $20 to $50 wholesale with most of them at $35. Hell, a chillum goes for $20.

I'm not gonna tell you how much my wonky fumed spoons go for, you'd be pissed!

I need to move to FL ! :-O

[Dan Kooper]

No clear, because they are made on color tubing. Don't appear to be sleeved. Surfaces are really smooth actually.

They are sleeved and not on colored tubing

The inside would not match the outside if it was colored tubing. And the termination has a bubble where the clear meets the color.
Clear/color/clear

[STROKER]

what is a reball you speak of? sounds kinky...

[Dan Kooper]

It's my testicle that got detatched and reattached. So it is a ball once again.

[daveabr]

yea, that makes sense. the one i was holding appeared to be made on the "smoke" trans black tubing. but, they must have used the rod on clear. for having three layers, these were made with some considerable ability. they are worked out pretty thin for having 3 layers of glass in them.


i think our item set up guy just meant, there is no clear sections/windows.

[MUPH]

Throw a $2.50 joint on it and you have a $25 wholesale slide.

Legit.

[Dan Kooper]

If it was a double layer or a bi polar reball it would be worth it. Still not my style to use things like that. But I'm no good at dl's or bipolars so I'd buy one to make a dish to keep. Kind of a collab.

[Dan Kooper]

Dave- are these made in America? In house? Other artist?
And are they selling mostly overseas? I've seen a lot of new china glass with nice reballs on the tree and disc perks. If they do go overseas they are too cheap. Make those 50$. Lol.

[FizZle]

Throw a $2.50 joint on it and you have a $25 wholesale slide.

Legit.

and i dont see how that is profitable...

[Mecha]

Sometimes it's not all about profit. Sometimes, it's all about mad skills and baller status.

Both of which can be attained with Muph's idea.

[bildo]

I bought one and used it and now I am a fucking baller. I never knew how easy reballs were. My dome I made out of it sold for 1000, I am thinking about picking up the rest of them so you guys better hurry and get em while you can. I went from fume spoon to fucking baller. Eusheen who?

[Samson]

so are these Asian or being bought from prodo shops here in America? Just curious

[Role]

I bought one and used it and now I am a fucking baller. I never knew how easy reballs were. My dome I made out of it sold for 1000, I am thinking about picking up the rest of them so you guys better hurry and get em while you can. I went from fume spoon to fucking baller. Eusheen who?

Funny stuff. :)

[gambitglass]

so are these Asian or being bought from prodo shops here in America? Just curious


"you want the secret formula, no use, i only know half...no speaka the english I only do the math" MF DOOM

[T-Rex]

I don't see why so many of you are hating on this product. Just doesn't make sense! If you don't like it, don't buy it. I think it's cool that it's being offered. The more options we have, the better! We should all be allowed to buy/sell whatever glass products we want.

The piece is obviously priced well. At $22.50, most of you can't make a profit out of it. So it's not like ABR is destroying the market or anything. But there are people out there that will find a way to profit off those, and more power to them.

[Dan Kooper]

I don't think anyone is hating one it really. More making fun of it if anything. But asking where they are made is a legit question. They look too nice to be import. I would be impressed if they were.

[r_ains]

I guess very few people looked at the dimensions of these before commenting. At 1.5" -2" wide these are clearly for shops that bust out tubes not being used to cap spoons. Adding a reversal at the top of a tube would increase the value by far more than the 22.5-25 dollars these are each. To those people that say you can make a reball in 15 or so minutes, you must not be counting the time to make the stripped tubing (or are you buying pre-stripped tubing but knocking these?) or the cost of materials (+$$) because if you were at 1.5 inches wide and 3.5 inches long you are using up some color rod for each of these being made. If I had somebody come ask me for 2" reballs without clear sections I would guess that unless they were buying tons of them I wouldnt be any cheaper. Doubt anyone here would be.

Abe did point out these were requested by a shop that makes tons of tubes. If I invested in a lathe and could pay somebody else to prep these reballs for me to assemble on the lathe it would be much more profitable than leaving my lathe turned off while I spent time, gas and glass to make my own stripped tube, reball it, add a section of clear and even the wall thickness out so it would be ready to pop on the top of a tube.

Just thought somebody would have to play devils advocate in this thread. I dont ever plan on ordering any of these and stripe all my own tubing when doing line work but I can see why people producing tons of tubes would like the idea.

[hnk]

ill selll you cheaper and nicer reversals w/ stringers. hollllllllaaaaa

[Mr. Whale dick]

Wow...22.50...and they have china smoke in them...



Wowzers.....i will never touch china color....especially in reversals..p


My guess is china,made....you would have to be retarted to use smoke in a tube pull...unless your in china



And damn dave....learn what you are selling....
is there clear or no?

[STROKER]

I guess very few people looked at the dimensions of these before commenting. At 1.5" -2" wide these are clearly for shops that bust out tubes not being used to cap spoons. Adding a reversal at the top of a tube would increase the value by far more than the 22.5-25 dollars these are each. To those people that say you can make a reball in 15 or so minutes, you must not be counting the time to make the stripped tubing (or are you buying pre-stripped tubing but knocking these?) or the cost of materials (+$$) because if you were at 1.5 inches wide and 3.5 inches long you are using up some color rod for each of these being made. If I had somebody come ask me for 2" reballs without clear sections I would guess that unless they were buying tons of them I wouldnt be any cheaper. Doubt anyone here would be.

Abe did point out these were requested by a shop that makes tons of tubes. If I invested in a lathe and could pay somebody else to prep these reballs for me to assemble on the lathe it would be much more profitable than leaving my lathe turned off while I spent time, gas and glass to make my own stripped tube, reball it, add a section of clear and even the wall thickness out so it would be ready to pop on the top of a tube.

Just thought somebody would have to play devils advocate in this thread. I dont ever plan on ordering any of these and stripe all my own tubing when doing line work but I can see why people producing tons of tubes would like the idea.


i own a lathe and i can do a vacstack including prep in 75mm outer around 10 inches long in about 50 minutes from the time i start cutting and cleaning rods to the time i have right aroung 3 pounds of lined tube to make reversals.
now i am not exactly sure how many reversals i get out of 3 pounds but its a bunch and yes i can do a reversal within 15 minutes in no problem all day long and quicker if it doesnt have much complexity.
there is no way this is profitable to anyone that actually has the skill to do a vacstack and reversal.

plus it has to be one very pisspoor product line that would include such.

[daveabr]

i said, yes there is clear. and i admitted i was looking at them for the first time with you. so, not sure what you want me to say to that. and fyi, the smoke held up great, and actually looks really good. so, maybe you should revisit it and learn to work it where it looks good. not sure what else to say, it looks good.

and, for all those who say they don't get it, saying why would you do this????? i assume you all buy a pound of northstar cobalt, vac stack it, and never buy a tube of chinese cobalt tubing?? cause what's the difference?


anyway, i never posted these here, and am certainly not tying you down forcing you to buy them. don't like them, don't buy them. in the meantime, we are backordered over 600 pcs on them. so, they obviously are worth it to someone.


you guys can take this thread where you may. we sell things, chinese, czech, american, indian, japanese, italian, etc..... it's part of life today. i wish everything was made here, but it's not. and this industry thrives on the use of the china tubing, so i'm missing the difference I suppose. like i said, i don't see many blue tubing threads here noting how everyone is vac stacking cobalt.

[hashmasta-kut]

part of the industry i guess, but not all of it. never used a chinese tube myself. you never answered wether or not these were imported, and from where though?

[daveabr]

i thought it was covered they were imported. just like all the china tubing.


that's awesome you've never used a china tube. wish the whole world would go that route, then we could stop importing, and Northstar and GA would grow in size exponentially.

[daveabr]

part of the industry i guess, but not all of it.


this is what i keep saying. we got these done, due to a HUGE custom order. not to push them on artists. i never came here and told everyone "come try the newest, headiest thing brah!" they are on our website, because people shop there, big companies, and individual artists alike. we've already gotten backordered on them. so, it is helping some folks.



i understand the community here is not the market for this, which is why i didn't market them here. people eat our china tube sales up though. so, it is what it is. people have a choice.

i'm just trying to answer the questions honestly, so hope people realize that.

[Icarus]

"come try the newest, headiest thing brah!"


i never came here and told everyone "come try the newest, headiest thing brah!"

Dave, come on! I have proof of you saying that right fucking here!!!!

(This is the part where I would insert a smily face emoticon if I used those type of things). Just trying to bring some levity to the conversation.

[Icarus]

"come try the newest, headiest thing brah!"


i never came here and told everyone "come try the newest, headiest thing brah!"

Dave, come on! I have proof of you saying that right fucking here!!!!

(This is the part where I would insert a smily face emoticon if I used those type of things). Just trying to bring some levity to the conversation.

[daveabr]

thanks Icky..... noted and appreciated

[swillz]

Fuuuuuccccckkkkkk china! Your selling yourself and the industry short!!!!!!!

[Mecha]

Wow. 4 days.

Is that a record?

[sasch74]

I do a lot of prodo tubes, stilld don't like that idea at all...

There is always a difference to be made, no matter how much you do of anything!

[Mr. Whale dick]

How is one reversal 22.50 from china.?...

Arnt bubs with a couple balls like 20 bux?

I should start buying bubs and cutting the reversals off...

Those poor Chinese kids prolly get like a quarter for them

[Mr. Whale dick]

How is one reversal 22.50 from china.?...

Arnt bubs with a couple balls like 20 bux?

I should start buying bubs and cutting the reversals off...

Those poor Chinese kids prolly get like a quarter for them

[ellohellcj]

This thread was not meant to bring any hate to ABR or Dave himself!
Just to clarify. Purely for discussion.

[sasch74]

^^
definetly, supply and demand.

[Mr. Whale dick]

Im not hating on either...


I will hate on a crappy china product

[Mr. Whale dick]

And for the record i totally support buying reversals...just not Chinese ones

[swillz]

I agree no hate on Dave n Abr it's supply n demand.

[bildo]

You know who I am hatin on? It is the overpriced tube company capping tubes with chinese reballs. Somebody ought to put this fucking company on blast. Chinese reballs adding value to a tube is like a glass blower smoking out of acryllic. What the fuck? I thought cheating was internal frit, but now I can see that I am way behind the game. American made tube? Yeah fucking right. They need their glass card pulled. Please Please Please somebody dime out these fucking imposters making american made tubes with chinese artwork. It would be so much better if they got the clear parts from china and did their own american ARTWORK. I thought the reball was the part that made it a bad ass item.

No knock on abr, but that tube company should be fucking ashamed.

[somewhere]

You know who I am hatin on? It is the overpriced tube company capping tubes with chinese reballs. Somebody ought to put this fucking company on blast. Chinese reballs adding value to a tube is like a glass blower smoking out of acryllic. What the fuck? I thought cheating was internal frit, but now I can see that I am way behind the game. American made tube? Yeah fucking right. They need their glass card pulled. Please Please Please somebody dime out these fucking imposters making american made tubes with chinese artwork. It would be so much better if they got the clear parts from china and did their own american ARTWORK. I thought the reball was the part that made it a bad ass item.

No knock on abr, but that tube company should be fucking ashamed.

A reball isn't art work. It's just basic prep.

[ALIEN!]

this thread has inspired my next new thing....

[daveabr]

I'll say one more thing about this, because I like the conversation. And I appreciate everyone be candid. There is no one who wishes more we didn't have to import china products (tubing, tools, etc.) trust me, it's a pain in the ass. But to be competitive suppliers, we all have to do it. And all of us do. The unfortunate truth is the industry has gotten quite large, and a good deal of shops probably aren't run and managed by glassblowers. The same goes for the supply companies as well. There are still only a few of us that are run by guys who came out of glass shops. And all of us who did make functional glass before this, are all in disbelief probably of what a business it's become. So, there are now, more than ever, big business thinkers in our industry. This is not a trend, and will only increase in my opinion. Where there's profit, there will be people eager to take it.

Import of materials is never going to stop. There will be trees, reversals, joints, bushings, lathes, and everything else a guy needs to set up shop, coming from china, for years to come. Imported finished pieces is the thing people can fight against. Support shows like GRAS who feature and promote American glass and American glass makers. Also keep in mind though, that a percentage of that American glass is, will continue to be made with a percentage of china materials. Whether it's the glass, or the metals and chemicals in the glass that make it work, some part of it is probably from china. I mean I see a ton of nice work at shows, with china color joints on them. Or, sick implosion marbles with china white in them. Does that make it less nice?



I am certainly no china hero, I wish we didn't have it either. But, I'm also a realist, and know that it's part of our industry now, and certainly a part of my job. Again, thanks for all your input, and thanks for the conversation..... Now go over to the vendor section and buy up all this AMERICAN Northstar Tubing from my homey Abe. Support that shit. I do.

[faded]

why aren't you all behind your torches busting out r-balls? Dave said he was backordered and selling them by the 100's. You all see how much they are selling for. If it's as easy as some are claiming ... Jump in on it! Cut china outta the loop!

[ROGUE]

A reball isn't art work. It's just basic prep.

How is it not art? You have to pick out good contrasting colors that will fit together, you have to put the colors in a pattern that is pleasing to the consumer, and then you have to do the reversal. It may not be hard to make, but I have seen an overwhelming amount of extremely ugly wig wags. So, making them may not be as artistic as other things, but it is certainly has an artistic element.

I also want to clarrify my position on this. I was discussing this topic with somebody that brought up apprentices doing prep work and said buying a reball is the same thing as having it made by somebody in your shop. Yes, doing this type of prep work sucks, and many artist use apprentices to do prep work. Here's the difference though. If you have somebody make reballs for you then it is still your artistic design, you are just having a person put it together for you. If you buy something premade the color and design is already set so you have added no artistic value and I bet people using them is claiming the art as their own. In text this would be considered plagurism, so why do we consider it ok as artist? If somebody is using another persons art as their own that is not right in my opinion.

This discussion for me is more moral and philosophical than it is about the money.

[ROGUE]

why aren't you all behind your torches busting out r-balls? Dave said he was backordered and selling them by the 100's. You all see how much they are selling for. If it's as easy as some are claiming ... Jump in on it! Cut china outta the loop!

Ding ding ding, we have a winner lol

[Mr. Wonka]

why aren't you all behind your torches busting out r-balls? Dave said he was backordered and selling them by the 100's. You all see how much they are selling for. If it's as easy as some are claiming ... Jump in on it! Cut china outta the loop!

Because getting behind the torch and making them is too much work. It's easier to talk smack from your keyboard!

Seriously... that's the best response in this entire thread. Repped!

Tom

[Mr. Whale dick]

When i use someones sections it becomes a collab...i dont just say i made it...


If you collab with someone and they make the reversals....you sell the piece and split the money...


How is that diffrent than buying reversals outright?

[Mr. Whale dick]

When i use someones sections it becomes a collab...i dont just say i made it...


If you collab with someone and they make the reversals....you sell the piece and split the money...


How is that diffrent than buying reversals outright?

[ROGUE]

When i use someones sections it becomes a collab...i dont just say i made it...


If you collab with someone and they make the reversals....you sell the piece and split the money...


How is that diffrent than buying reversals outright?

Do you know the person making the reballs that your buying? If you made a piece with the premade reball are you seriously going to give credit to ABR for selling you the RB? That's how it's different, you have no idea who the artist is and you have no control of how the color or pattern will work.

[Mr. Whale dick]

Of course i know them....

And i would never buy one feom someone i dont know...


But i feel my "art" is still intact regardless of me making them or not...






Alot happens between section and finished piece...
Art is the big picture....not little snapshots

[Mecha]

Art is the big picture....not little snapshots

^I like this.

[Beast]

I'll say one more thing about this, because I like the conversation. And I appreciate everyone be candid. There is no one who wishes more we didn't have to import china products (tubing, tools, etc.) trust me, it's a pain in the ass. But to be competitive suppliers, we all have to do it. And all of us do. The unfortunate truth is the industry has gotten quite large, and a good deal of shops probably aren't run and managed by glassblowers. The same goes for the supply companies as well. There are still only a few of us that are run by guys who came out of glass shops. And all of us who did make functional glass before this, are all in disbelief probably of what a business it's become. So, there are now, more than ever, big business thinkers in our industry. This is not a trend, and will only increase in my opinion. Where there's profit, there will be people eager to take it.

Import of materials is never going to stop. There will be trees, reversals, joints, bushings, lathes, and everything else a guy needs to set up shop, coming from china, for years to come. Imported finished pieces is the thing people can fight against. Support shows like GRAS who feature and promote American glass and American glass makers. Also keep in mind though, that a percentage of that American glass is, will continue to be made with a percentage of china materials. Whether it's the glass, or the metals and chemicals in the glass that make it work, some part of it is probably from china. I mean I see a ton of nice work at shows, with china color joints on them. Or, sick implosion marbles with china white in them. Does that make it less nice?



I am certainly no china hero, I wish we didn't have it either. But, I'm also a realist, and know that it's part of our industry now, and certainly a part of my job. Again, thanks for all your input, and thanks for the conversation..... Now go over to the vendor section and buy up all this AMERICAN Northstar Tubing from my homey Abe. Support that shit. I do.

Sigh. While I think some of the blame can be shifted onto vendors, and I'm not singling you out, Dave [like you said, the whole game is evolving and you're just keeping up your paces, putting bread on the table], I would think most of the blame would be shifted on those who are making the purchases of foreign product. If the demand for foreign product was non-existent, this wouldn't even be an issue. But people are buying it because it's cheaper and they can make a lot more money off of it, right [usually without batting an eye towards quality and what used to make a great majority of local products great]? I would think that for vendors, the appeal is the price that you're able to get it for, but the biggest blame goes to those who demand it. Whether it be to single artists or hotshops [in which case, the artists working there do have the choice to boycott], the solution starts with us.

I am a huge proponent of locally-made products; they keep the money in the economy and their quality is a lot higher, even if their price is, too. Sure, you save money with foreign glass, but at what cost? There is such thing as short term and long term foresight, and in my opinion, it's the latter that really matters. There is a lot of damage being done with foreign product, and it involves the entire economy and our livelihoods.

You plant a tree, and the sapling will be smaller than you at first. But in a two years, that tree will grow larger than you would grow in ten years. Every little thing counts. The choice is ours, and ours alone. If we want to see an end to foreign glass, we have to make an end to our habits of consumption.

[Logan]

Thanks for the insight Dave. If there is a demand for anything, someone will make it. I personally use alot of colored chinese tube in my production work. Its a money maker for sure. Shit, even Mickelsen makes fine art out of the stuff. I wish northstar or alchemy could compete with it, but I dont see that happening any time soon.

[Beast]

I wish northstar or alchemy could compete with it, but I dont see that happening any time soon.

They DO compete with it; they have much more variety and their level of quality is much higher and grants you more control of your work [while also increasing your options in terms of vision]. I'm not ragging on you or trying to insult you [especially since you're just stating how it is], but there is more to be seen and thought about than just the price tag.

[ROGUE]

Of course i know them....

And i would never buy one feom someone i dont know...


But i feel my "art" is still intact regardless of me making them or not...

You are probably being sarcastic, but how exactly are you going to know who the artist of a Chinese prodo reball is?

And your second sentence completely goes along with what I'm saying. You would not be buying a premade reball because you wouldn't know the artist.




Art is the big picture....not little snapshots

This is my personal opinion, but I completely disagree. By that logic, as long as I sign the art it's mine it and doesn't matter who made the pieces. I have worked on several art mediums throughout my life and have never come across another for where so many people condone using other people's art as your own. I am not talking about colaborations, I am talking about generally accepting compliments on work that you have not done. I'm not calling anybody out or even have anybody in mind just mentioning what I have seen.

[Mr. Whale dick]

Think your comfusing a company with a artist


A tube company is just that....a company...


Im a artist....i dont use china crap on anything....o.k. Maybe a occasonal hround joint...
And i always,give credit to the people i work with on a piece....


Real recognize real....if your dumb enough to use china reversals then by all means ....

[Dan Kooper]

It is what it is......
I'm not effected by it.
Since When did we care about tube companies? They have been using chinex for years.

But now that there is chi-balls
And we have Chinese fittings
I got 5$ on Chinese wagged fittings are next.

[gambitglass]

Yup, a tube company using these are not promoting there product as art, its a product. Even well known Amrican tube companies use production no manufacturing techniques to mass produce their scientific glass designs. The initial design process may be a little bit artistic but beyond that I dont see it at very expressive.

Artists have all the room to set themselves apart.

I never had many issues with chinese color tubing and will continue to buy it because of the price. The market only supports me selling production pieces at certain price points and if I used all american made tubing I would not be able to price and sell my work accordingly on a wholesale level.

If I take the chinese color tubing and create my own unique thing with it then its my design in the end.

[daveabr]

They DO compete with it; they have much more variety and their level of quality is much higher and grants you more control of your work [while also increasing your options in terms of vision]. I'm not ragging on you or trying to insult you [especially since you're just stating how it is], but there is more to be seen and thought about than just the price tag.


northstar does indeed compete. which is why Abe and I constantly work together to bring you guys affordable Northstar tubing (see Vendors area). And guess what..... I exclusively post that list on this forum ONLY, every time. Yet, I still sell more China tube to people on this site than the Northstar.

[FizZle]

^NS Tubing FTW all day...thanks dave and abr....for trying to make it affordable to buy quality color u guys always got good deals

[daveabr]

and thank Abe also..... he really does work with us to try and get American color tubing in your guys' hands. big ups

[maui greenstone]

off topic, but still same topic.... What kind of car do you drive? If it's american made do you think all the parts that went into it are? What kind of TV do you watch? Pretty much every product on the market now has import competition. Some are crap quality, but some (like the chinese white) are better quality. Basically you have to be the judge of where to draw the line on what to buy.

Also on the whole "art" aspect of this thread. Let's look at the most prolific american glass artist Dale the pirate Chihuly. In no way does he make his prep or give credit to the people who did. His art is in the concept. Also there is a difference between art and production. For me the basic criteria for "art" is does it evoke emotion, does it make you ponder why? or how? If it makes you "feel" whatever the feeling is, it can be considered art. Now does a basic reball spoon, bub, hammer, or tube make you feel anything other than HIGH? For me the answer is no and so should be considered production or "craft". I'm not in anyway saying all pipes are "craft" my favorite american glass artists are all pipe makers, just what they do pushes boundries with their concepts. Also saying that picking the colors for reball linework is art is bunk...That's like chosing what color crayon to use in your coloring book. Draw the picture first, then it can be considered art....i.e. come up with a great concept and the techniques used become part of the art. I think Alex said it earlier, but the Art is in the big picture, not in the basic prep that can be turned into anything.

p.s. props to Abe for producing affordable american color and to distributors like ABR for getting it into our hands.

[hashmasta-kut]

china white sucks.

[Mecha]

You a black tar guy? :)

[Bo Diddles]

Holy crap I hope this doesn't degenerate into a "what is art" thread.
The only person to blame is for the proliferation of Chinese crap tubing in my opinion is the glassblower.
The consumer will buy it = the glassblower makes it = vendors supply it.
The problem is an uneducated glass buying public. They don't know that Chinese colour is inferior... Is that their fault? Shop owners need to educate them, and glassblowers need to educate shop owners.
Blaming the vendor is crazy.

Holy fuck I hate posting via my phone I hope that made sense.

[ROGUE]

Holy crap I hope this doesn't degenerate into a "what is art" thread.


That's exactly where it's going. I'm however, going to bow out. That discussion will lead nowhere but insults and name calling I think.

[gambitglass]

I'd like to know why Chinese color is inferior?

[Frit]

Seems cheap at first but if I'm gonna try to save money and time I would go as far as buying pre made tubing cause lets face it making tubing blows. a large section of pre striped is only around $20 depending on colors. I can bang out at least 10 of these for that so its not really worth it to buy these. reversals sadly are getting kinda played out. Not how I feel but from a what sells in my store perspective reversals aren't moving that fast and your better off spending time on other techniques.

[Frit]

china white sucks.
Ive liked most batches of the china white. Its real stable and great for production work. Not clean enough for heady stuff but it gets the job done and white sells in shops. Now my most recent batch of china black is terrible. looks great but do anything to it and it comes out of the kiln cracked .

[hashmasta-kut]

I'd like to know why Chinese color is inferior?

i think issues such as tolerance and COE are the major factors. for sure some china glass products are stable i guess, but one hears many stories about how many are not, moreso than the local color it seems. same with clear, you always want the best clear you can get, and chinese is not it, once again.

[maui greenstone]

I guess my point was that it doesn't make your work more or less "art" buy farming out pieces of it. ie using premade reballs, gongs, or cups and feet. If you are doing production and it works out to be a good financial decision to use the prep, then use it. If you are working on an art piece and it seems that same piece of prep would serve your concept well, then use it. It is a personal choice to use these things and in no way does it make your art more or less valid. It may make your prodo worth a little less in the long run, but probably not.

also with a thread name like "convenience/production vs art" the idea of what is production vs art being discussed was inevitable. I wasn't trying to stir feathers or steer the thread in any direction.

short answer to the thread is
Don't get butthurt with someone else's choice of materials to use. Use what you want to use, but know the quality. Demand drives the market. If none of us used cheap crap it wouldn't be there.

[hashmasta-kut]

Ive liked most batches of the china white. Its real stable and great for production work. Not clean enough for heady stuff but it gets the job done and white sells in shops. Now my most recent batch of china black is terrible. looks great but do anything to it and it comes out of the kiln cracked .


almost everything me or another person using the batch of china white we got, pretty much everything cracked if not right away, then within a couple weeks. sounds like your black was acting.

[TlkQ]

part of the industry i guess, but not all of it. never used a chinese tube myself. you never answered wether or not these were imported, and from where though?



almost everything me or another person using the batch of china white we got, pretty much everything cracked if not right away, then within a couple weeks.

You must be referring to china white rod then eh?

[Frit]

almost everything me or another person using the batch of china white we got, pretty much everything cracked if not right away, then within a couple weeks. sounds like your black was acting.

I guess the drawback to china glass is that its unpredictable some batches are great but if you order 10 lbs and its a bad batch your effed. I think its best to buy it in small batches and use it sparingly. that way if it ends up cracking your not out a ton of $. Ive had both colors act both ways its a quality control issue but hey you get what you pay for.

[maui greenstone]

yes I was referring to the china white rod . the tube is normally pretty shocky and most times only compatible with itself

[hashmasta-kut]

You must be referring to china white rod then eh?

yeah it was around back when it was being talked about on the forums a lot. got it at the DFO, not the last one, but the one b4.

[JBob]

i think issues such as tolerance and COE are the major factors. for sure some china glass products are stable i guess, but one hears many stories about how many are not, moreso than the local color it seems. same with clear, you always want the best clear you can get, and chinese is not it, once again.

I believe the best white to be China, or at least comparable to some of the best American white boro. I have never had it check, or produce too many ill effects that I can remember, and at $15/lbs as opposed to $55 Star White, its a no brainer for a lot of people. Im sure China might not work as good in some applications, but for my uses it works perfect.

[Dan Kooper]

I have an 18m rod of china white and you can see clear in it bad. Like looking at a cut tree trunk. It's wierd. And the 50m tubing is crap. Just the look of it. It looks like styrofoam. The texture the look. It's junk. I bought it as old stock so I'm guessing it's old. I would hope its better now because this stuff is un usable.

[Dan Kooper]

And the clear i got a couple months ago for 5$ prodo spoons is 50/50 junk. So annoying. There is lines all the way down the clear. It looks like a blended crack. A whole bunch of it is. I had to chuck a 2 foot section yesterday. Also pits and bubbles all through it. It's a terrible batch.

[hashmasta-kut]

I believe the best white to be China, or at least comparable to some of the best American white boro. I have never had it check, or produce too many ill effects that I can remember, and at $15/lbs as opposed to $55 Star White, its a no brainer for a lot of people. Im sure China might not work as good in some applications, but for my uses it works perfect.

well i think the problem you arent addressing is consistency. the batch of white we had, everything cracked pretty much. looked really nice, but not when it broke after. i have one of my sisters vapes sitting on the wall all checked in the china white, its the only one in almost ten years i got from her that has done that. almost everything i made with chinese cracked eventually. although north american color batches may vary, they never get like this bad.

[JBob]

Totally understandable, I do see both sides of it, but im sure for many and myself, I just have yet to have a bad batch to cause problems. The way I look at it i can piss away 4x as much white at chinas price...that mixed with my experiences of not getting having trouble using it make it appealing to a lot of people.

[misled youth]

I have never considered any of my production to be art.