Learning boro after 14 years with soft glass.

[bluffroadglass]

I love the boro color palette and was so excited about the prospect of learning to work boro, but I finally had the time to play around with some of the glass I bought last night and holy cow, is this stuff SLOW! I'm on a Lynx and a Regalia (10 LPM) concentrator. I had the torch and concentrator completely maxed out and it still took me 2 hours to make a simple 1" implosion marble. And after all that, the marble never ended up making it to the kiln, because I accidentally knocked it off the punty during the final shaping and it picked up a bunch of grit and surface scars from the studio floor. By that point I was just so tired and disgusted I threw it in the water bucket.

Just getting a decent gather seemed like it took forever. Pulling stringer was an exercise in frustration, I couldn't seem to get enough heat into a gather to pull more than about a foot at a time. I tried pulling some points on heavy wall 1" tubing and did better than I expected as far as getting them straight, but the glass stiffened up so quickly that my points ended up being way too short and basically unusable.

Oh yeah, and I hate my new ACE shade 3 glasses. I can barely see through them well enough to do any detail work, and from what I've read, that's the minimum level of shade needed for working boro color.

Did any of you who started lampworking with soft glass find it this frustrating when you first switched to boro? I had such high hopes of expanding my capabilities, but boy, last night's torch session was just 4 hours of constant irritation.

It seems obvious that I need more firepower, but I'm wondering how much difference that's really going to make. I'm not a patient person, and I swear, while waiting for that marble to implode last night I actually thought I was going to doze off.

Does it get better? I don't mind a steep learning curve at all, in fact part of why I wanted to learn boro was because I needed some new challenges. But with the right amount of oxy and the right torch, can boro be made to move at a satisfactory pace, or is it always pretty much gonna be stiff and stubborn? I'd sure love to hear from those of you who've successfully made the switch from soft glass to boro.

[T-Rex]

Of course it'll get better than your first try! I also started with soft glass, albeit only for two weeks before more or less fully switching to boro.

You'll definitely want more firepower. See about getting another concentrator if possible.

As for stringers - with good technique you can get them as small or as large as you want, even with your setup. If you want really long ones, try doing a continuous pull. Heat an stretch as you go. I will pull full rods of color down into a fat 'stringer' this way for easier application when striping tube.

Switching to darker glasses sucks and you'll just have to suffer through that. Get more lights in your studio if you can. I started on Shade 5, and then got Shade 3's and can't go back now because I find it too dark. I imagine it's even worse for you!

Good luck!

[Moto]

Its only glass...just add more heat and it will come to you

[loydb]

I did soft glass beads for several years before switching to boro. If it makes you feel better, the transition from soft->boro is much easier than the reverse (rods don't explode, you can bench cool, etc.). A beefier concentrator would definitely help -- but if you want to do marbles, you're going to want something a little bigger. If you don't want tanked oxy, I ran a Phantom with an Onyx+ inner fire and Psyclone outer fire for many years -- but you're talking a multi-thousand dollar investment.

A Lynx *is* capable of doing boro beads (I think it's the perfect bead torch), and will work tubing pretty well (I've seen some amazing pieces made on just a Lynx) with enough oxy. But it's not great at heating masses of solid glass for marbles and the like.

[glassmax]

Hi,

As Loyd said it´s actually easier to switch from Soft glass to boro than reverse.

The main point is,you need more heat.
You need more oxy,much more !

You can heat and melt boro really much quicker than soft glass but it needs power.
I melt a 12 or 15mm rod in a minute.or two.

Many people who worked a long time with soft glass are just kind of afraid to heat the glass
as its neccesary.

The best would be to get a lesson from a boro worker.As you already have skills with soft glass,
it won´t take you long to get the basics.

Axel

[Joemess]

I did the same now i dread going back to soft when my wife wants a bunch of simple spacers. As others have said, its about the heat. You can get hard glass much hotter than you think you can without boiling as you would get in soft glass. In fact, i have come to love the slowness and speed. Don't give up on it yet.

[PyroChixRock]

I like to switch back and forth, keeps me on my toes. :kickflip::mj:

Welcome, Kim. Good to see ya here. :blowkiss:

[kbinkster]

Kim, I'll get out some boro on the same set-up and see what I can do. It's not ever going to be as fast or as detailed as soft glass because it is a stiffer glass, but two hours for a simple 1" implosion marble on a Lynx/Regalia combination seems long.

[bluffroadglass]

I really appreciate all the responses -- thanks everyone. Looks like I need to start saving for another concentrator and a new torch. And some heatproof gloves, and a face shield, and...and...

A class is a great idea, too. I'm generally a 'learn by trial and error' kind of person, but after the other night I can see how spending a few hours with someone to learn how much heat I need, flame chemistry, etc., would probably save me a ton of time and frustration. So, another thing to save for.

Misha, thanks for the kind welcome!

[bluffroadglass]

Kim, I'll get out some boro on the same set-up and see what I can do. It's not ever going to be as fast or as detailed as soft glass because it is a stiffer glass, but two hours for a simple 1" implosion marble on a Lynx/Regalia combination seems long.

Hey Kimberly, sorry, ya snuck in on me.

Yeah, I knew it would be slow, but I didn't expect it to be that slow. As you know, I've had my Regalia for quite a few years now. I've been wondering if it needs a filter change or needs to be rebuilt or something. It still seems to operate as well as it did the day I bought it, but if the output has gradually declined over the years, I'm not sure I'd notice that using it just about every day like I do.

[kbinkster]

There is a compressor inlet filter that is probably due for a change (around 4,000 hours). Once you have about 10,000 hours, you will want to rebuild the compressor.

I'm still going to work some boro this weekend and see how it does. If I can work it faster than what you describe, I'll take some pictures of the flame I'm using and where I'm working in the flame, etc. and maybe that can help. Candle lengths, tips on candles, and where it is worked in the flame is different with boro than with soft glass. I'll also see what adding another machine will do. If it doesn't improve the Lynx's performance, I won't recommend it.

[LarryC]

A Lynx *is* capable of doing boro beads (I think it's the perfect bead torch), and will work tubing pretty well (I've seen some amazing pieces made on just a Lynx) with enough oxy. But it's not great at heating masses of solid glass for marbles and the like.

Hmm. Interesting. I did 2"+ boro marbles on my Lynx before I got the Mirage in. I find the Lynx to be excellent for working large solid boro but what do I know.

[menty666]

Was that tanked or on a concentrator though? I have a 5 lpm that my Cricket *can* run on, but it's MUCH more enjoyable tanked.

[glassmax]

Once more again:
If you really wanna work with soloid Boro another conzentrator might not be good enough.
Tanked oxy is the choice.
And yes,take a lesson.I think every good Boro worker could teach you in a couple of hours what you need to know.
You´d safe probably months and a lot of frustration.
Axel

[bluffroadglass]

I really love tanked, I used it for years before I got my Regalia. But I hate having to deal with switching out my tanks twice a week. I also live in a 'no hazmat' residential zone now, so I don't even know if they'd deliver tanks to me anymore. I've been reading up on liquid oxy and homefill systems. I guess I'm going to have to look into one of those. With L02 would I have to get a dewer or can you get it in smaller quantities, in a tank size that I could more easily transport?

[Chicago]

With the oxycon putting out 10lpm at 7-9psi and getting your 2hr time for your project, would an oxycon that puts out 10lpm at 20psi help with that time? I am looking at this very setup but with a 10lpm x 20psi oxycon as I have no way to transport tanks.

Could it have been a filter issue after a few years of use? Kimberly said 10,000hr that's a lot of time, er 416 straight days.

Also knowing nothing holds a candle to tanked O2, just 2hrs for a 1" marb. seems long. I plan on getting a few hour classes in to start. To cut down those "why" moments. Save weeks if not months of learning things in an improper manor.

[Lefty]

You could always get tanks delivered I pay 12$ to get a months worth of oxy. Saves time and headache for sure

[Chicago]

That's not a bad price for the headache of any unsafe car transport, yea load it through the trunk please... What do they knock you per tank w/o deposits around here? Are you in a rez. zone? My neighbors see a gas truck dropping off tanks, they'll think it's about to get kicked off over here, ha. I wouldn't mind keeping a supply of tanked o2 in times of raging. What torch are you on?

After looking around on other posts, I found around 1.5hrs for a solid 2" marble on the lynx I assume on tanked oxy. as this OP's was a 1" on 2hrs. oxycon. Does that first time of 1.5hrs for a 2" sound close? *I guess depends on the intricacies of the marble hmm ;), but ballpark-ish?

Would a difference in oxycon psi 7-8 comp. to 20psi effect it much or some with the same 10lpm?

[kbinkster]

Kim, I finally got out there and experimented with some boro with the Regalia and the centerfire of my Phantom (same as the Lynx). I wanted to just make a few gathers and pull some stringer and cane to see how long it would take and how long my pulls could be. When I go back out after lunch, I'll see about making an implosion pendant.

I heated a gather that was about an inch in diameter and pulled some stringer from that in under four minutes. I also made a twisted cane with white and red (a paddle with white on one side and red on the other) with the whole thing encased in clear. My longest pull from that gather was about 2.5 feet long. There were some shorter lengths from that gather, as well. My biggest problem was that I got everything too soupy. It took me 11-12 minutes. It took as long as it did because I got too sloppy with it and my pull was uneven, so I made a few pulls from the same gather. I'm out of practice and need to get back in the swing of things. Nevertheless, lack of heat was not an issue.

The flame I used had candles that were as long as I could get them with the yellow tips on the end pretty long (definitely longer than for a soft glass neutral flame) and feathered out a bit (instead of being rounded with no feathering). I worked about two inches from the face of the torch.

I have some other concentrators I can try out later, as well. I have some 8 LPM AirSeps that put out 20 psi and another 10 LPM SeQual unit. I can see how much of a gain using two 8 LPM, 20 psi or two 10LPM machines would be over using one Regalia, if there is much of a gain.

As for comparing times it takes to make things... Going from a 1" marble to a 2" marble, there is a big difference in volume. For a 1" marble, the volume is 0.52 cubic inches. For a 2" marble, the volume is 4.19 cubic inches. That's more than 8 times the volume.

Complexity of one thing to the next is also a consideration when comparing the time it takes to make something. That's why it's helpful to compare like for like.

[Chicago]

That's some great info right there! The volume difference from a 1" to 2" marble is crazy different. The Regalia sounds very well equipped to make some short work of boro tasks. Look forward to some more of your lynx oxycon use feedback to add to the knowledge base.