Nitrogen dioxide, is this a valid concern or am I being a baby?

[ITIS]

Does anyone have any relevant information concerning production of nitrogen oxides from heating glass with a burner? Do different burners create more or less NOx? Are there general guidelines for what constitutes adequate ventilation, hood design, shop arrangements? Are fans directly in front of you better or is an overhead funnel type hood better?

Some links to information about nitrogen dioxide its health effects and cautions.
http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/pdfs/79-116-e.pdf (page 135 states glass blowers as potential works that may be exposed).
http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npg/npgd0454.html (lists symptoms, dangerous exposure limits etc). (side note I have been experiencing some of these symptoms, irritated eyes, respiratory irritation, that is why I am on this witch hunt).
http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/tfacts175.pdf
http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/mmg/mmg.asp?id=394&tid=69

So does anyone know how much if any NOx is produced by any given burners? Is this potentially hazardous substance likely to be found in a studio? Are there any guidelines us lamp workers should be aware of?

Am I concerned about a real issue, or is this concern irrational?

Thanks for any relevant information.


Also do you think these types of devices are helpful in reducing chances of exposure or are they over kill?

http://www.monkeyarms.com/

or these?

http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/PPESafetySolutions/PPESafety/Personal_Protective_Equipment/Product_Catalog/~/3M-Versaflo-Heavy-Industry-PAPR-Kit-TR-300-HIK-1-case?N=4294661457+5011378&Nr=AND%28hrcy_id%3ACL0N83RPKPgs_8N27138WMZ_N2RL3FH WVK_GPD0K8BC31gv%29&loc=en_US&plmlblid=1273684239254&rt=d



Take care everyone and don't breathe the reddish brown gas.

-Austin

[Greymatter Glass]

I'm unaware of any lampworkers who have died from exposure to nitric oxide exposure, and I know guys who have been doing this for 40+ years.

Not to say it's not a danger to be aware of, but I wouldnt lose sleep over it. As long as you have some ventilation and all, at least....

Also, many of thoe same symptoms are caused by IR, heat, smoke, etc... if you're really worried consult a doctor.

monkey arms and localized exhaust are nice, but not cheap. Good general exhaust should be plenty for most people.

[ITIS]

Thanks Doug, I appreciate your reply.

I too know a few older glass works and myself have been a full time lamp worker for 14 years.

What do you think about this guys article for the ISGB http://www.isgb.org/info/safety/nox.shtml

"While Pamela made beads, I used detector tubes to measure the levels of carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide, and NOx in the room. Carbon monoxide was not detected under any condition. Carbon dioxide, while elevated a bit from ambient levels, was not at levels that would cause concern. However, NOx levels exceeded 15 parts per million in air (PPM) on numerous occasions. Even with considerable ventilation, NOx was ALWAYS at levels above 1 PPM."


I don't know what he thinks of as considerable ventilation, but she is making beads, and not running a big bench burner I imagine....

[LarryC]

Well, none of us are going to live forever. There are definite hazards to what we do but put it all in perspective. Run good ventilation, and be aware of the hazards of ingesting glass dust and you should live a long life assuming other factors like smoking, alcohol, and stress dont get you first.

[H1JACK3R]

Alright, so what is the suggested course of action against NOx? Now I'm a little bit worried.

[gambitglass]

Well the ventilation mentioned in the article did not paint a clear picture for me. Maybe there is a lot of nOX in that beadmakers studio because they thought an overhead bathroom fan would do the job of eliminating it. I'm not saying we shouldn't do further research about this but I dont think the research put forth other than the interesting testing method carries too much value at this time.

[ITIS]

http://annhyg.oxfordjournals.org/content/10/4/305.abstract (not much concrete info but it mentions higher oxygen flames produce more NOx...)

I think these are the testing tubes mentioned http://www.zefon.com/store/gastec-nitrogen-dioxide-detector-tubes.html I might get some pretty cheap for the tubes, the pump is a bit spendy.

This too also not much but again the pump is spendy, http://www.agriculturesolutions.com/Air-Quality-and-Gas-Testers/LaMotte-Nitrogen-Dioxide-Air-Test-Kit-%E2%80%93-7690.html

[Homegrown Handblown]

Pretty simply explained is this. The bigger your burner, the more NO gasses it's going to create. the hotter your constant flame, the more NO gasses are going to be created. NO gasses are NOT safe to breathe, but relatively "light", meaning they rise quickly, they are much lighter than the oxygen counterparts. As long as you have a decent INTAKE system for your ventilation as well as strong enough outdraw, you should see no problems. NO2 overexposure's immediate symptoms are analogous with those of asphyxiation. In all reality, the really important thing to know about NO2 is that you need a constant air exchange, and ventilation systems that pull enough to light 3 or 5 cone incense and leave no smoke from 4 feet behind a station, or a smoke bomb on the station, are strong enough to never experience NO2 poisoning. NO2 is a by-product of oxygen being burnt. when a flame is hot enough to burn the oxygen out of the atmosphere (not just the injected pure o2 from a tank) it causes the molecules in the air of hydrogen, nitrogen, and oxygen to tear and rebind (put simply) and creates NO2 and HH0 in the air....... as always, ventilate, ventilate, ventilate!

[Homegrown Handblown]

Further, my wife and I have begun doing a lot of our glass work with an oxygen breather (the little kind you stick in your nose) in. We figured we always have a but ton of o2 around, may as well use it for some healing. It's been really neat, I can work a lot longer, my muscles have stayed a lot less stiff, and my focus is improved while using it. If you are really worried, you can get a whole kit (you can attach it to the liquid tanks even) for less than a 100$, and you know you're good for life

[somewhere]

Further, my wife and I have begun doing a lot of our glass work with an oxygen breather (the little kind you stick in your nose) in. We figured we always have a but ton of o2 around, may as well use it for some healing. It's been really neat, I can work a lot longer, my muscles have stayed a lot less stiff, and my focus is improved while using it. If you are really worried, you can get a whole kit (you can attach it to the liquid tanks even) for less than a 100$, and you know you're good for life

First off all I would like to say that a lot of your information is NOT correct (bad info)
Second what you are suggesting in the above quote is irresponsible unsafe and stupid.

I'm sorry to sound so harsh but what you are suggesting is going to get someone hurt.

[Tsnider]

going out with a bong! err. bang

[brettodie]

your going to love it till your burn all the hairs out of your nose and burn the inside of your mouth. happens all the time to smokers that are on o2. my grandpa did it using a grinder in his shop. he looked miserable. set your ventilation up correctly and youll be much happier over all. if you want to take o2 breaks inside your house away from open sources of ignition. :)

[somewhere]

Well that was well said Bret.

I wanted to reply to the original topic but got side tracked.

Nitrogen dioxide is certainly something to be aware of but it doesn't take many air changes to dilute it. If you have a shop that has a build up of it you will certainly smell it. It has a very acrid smell you can't mistake.

I have often walked in the scientific shop to find the old man working at the lathe with everything shut down doors closed roll up down. The smell is very recognizable. When you enclose yourself in that type of environment carbon monoxide is probably a bigger threat and it has no odor.

[brettodie]

my mom was a respitory therapist. she also worked in home health care with a o2 company for many years. she came home a few times a month with stories about people catching their faces mouths,sinuses ect. on fire. one lady she worked with did it at least a dozen times in a year or two.

[drew1492]

Further, my wife and I have begun doing a lot of our glass work with an oxygen breather (the little kind you stick in your nose) in. We figured we always have a but ton of o2 around, may as well use it for some healing. It's been really neat, I can work a lot longer, my muscles have stayed a lot less stiff, and my focus is improved while using it. If you are really worried, you can get a whole kit (you can attach it to the liquid tanks even) for less than a 100$, and you know you're good for life

You are crazy... You know you can get oxygen toxicity from too much probably wont happen but still. It does help get rid of a mean hangover though.

[brettodie]

^^^^^ what drew said also. any o2 you breath tanked concentrated ect. should go thru something that hydrates it some also. you should be breathing a higher % bbut not 99% unless your copd is incredibly bad.

[Homegrown Handblown]

I'm sorry to sound stupid, but glad I said something. we haven't been using the pure o2, we use a system to lower it down to breathable (its about 65% if I remember correctly just like a respirator tank). I was unaware of any risks to it, and will discontinue. And no need to apologise for harshly rebuking someone (me) for doing something stupid ;-) as always, thanks for looking out

[Homegrown Handblown]

I'm sorry to sound stupid, but glad I said something. we haven't been using the pure o2, we use a system to lower it down to breathable (its about 65% if I remember correctly just like a respirator tank). I was unaware of any risks to it, and will discontinue. And no need to apologise for harshly rebuking someone (me) for doing something stupid ;-) as always, thanks for looking out, glad was brought to my attention before a BIG problem came of it

[James M]

I am digging up zombies in this old thread.

Quick question about smells while burning. I was out working last night, had a raging fire going and was doing some inside out spoons, as I was closing the flared ends I smelled something sweet. It did not linger for very long but it happened on two of the spoons I was making. I was just curious as to what that may be, it doesn't sound like No2 but I wanted to be sure. I have been playing around with our air intakes and at the moment it was behind me and to the left a bit. I am thinking about dumping the intakes right behind our heads after this. I also had a bit of a head ache this morn but it could have been the whiskey!!

[Mike_Aurelius]

https://mikeaurelius.wordpress.com/2008/02/28/the-case-for-studio-ventilation/

Many people, some of them fairly influential in the glass-working field, have publicly stated that it is difficult, if not impossible to work in a properly ventilated public studio. These same people have said that it is “OK” to open some windows and doors and use some box fans to move air around, but to also take frequent breaks. As this paper will show, this thinking is short sighted, and ultimately dangerous to the uninformed (especially new students).


This failure to take the initiative in presenting a united front for studio safety has led me to research one of the principle reasons glass-working studios MUST properly ventilate their work areas. That reason is NOx. The chief “bad actor” (as Stan Wolfersberger calls it) of the NOx family is NO2, nitrogen dioxide.

NO2 is one of the principle components of air pollution, shown visibly in the air as a brown cloud hanging over large cities. It is caused in part by internal combustion engines, coal burning plants, and other high temperature open flame sources.

Glass-workers are exposed to NO2 on a daily basis, and most, if not all, are not aware of the major problems that NO2 can cause.

NO2 is a toxic poison. Symptoms of poisoning can take several hours to appear, and the dosage is surprising low in order to inhale a potentially fatal dosage. Dosages as low as 4 parts per million (ppm) anesthetize the nose resulting in the loss of the ability to smell, which can easily result in overexposure.

According to the MSDS, NO2 is highly toxic by inhalation, and inhalation may be fatal. It is corrosive in its liquid form, or when combined with mucus or tears and forms nitric acid. It is considered a severe respiratory irritant. Permissible exposure level is 5 ppm. Contact with liquid causes severe eye damage and contact lenses must not be worn when exposed to NO2.

The fatal doses of NO2 are as follows:


Lethal concentration, 50% population kill: 88 ppm over 4 hours (rat)

Lethal concentration, 50% population kill: 30 ppm over 1 hour (gerbil)

Lethal concentration, 50% population kill: 1000 ppm over 10 minutes (mouse)

Lowest published lethal concentration: 200 ppm in 1 hour (human)


The MSDS recommends safety glasses and good ventilation. Use in a fume hood.

There is a latency period (delay) before symptoms may develop of anywhere from 2 to 48 hours. The early symptoms may manifest in any of the following:


Dyspnea

Cough
Chest pain
Clinical manifestations of noncardiogenic pulmonary edema


2 to 6 weeks after exposure the following symptoms may also develop:


Bronchiolitis obliterans, manifested as fever, cough, and dyspnea

Diffuse reticulonodular or miliary pattern on chest x-ray


Initial physical impact may be mild, but can progress over 72 hours to be life-threatening:


Pulmonary symptoms are the most common manifestation of nitrogen dioxide toxicity.


Cough

Dyspnea

Chest tightness

Choking

Wheezing

Chest pain

Rales

Rhonchi

Decreased breath sounds

Stridor


Other acute symptoms


Light-headedness

Loss of consciousness

Restlessness

Agitation

Confusion

Irritation of mucous membranes, including the eyes

Conjunctival infection

Weakness

Fatigue

Nausea

Abdominal pain


Delayed symptoms


Tachypnea

Headache

Fever, chills

Insomnia

Myalgias

Hemoptysis

Palpitations

Cyanosis

Coma



Now, granted, these are wost-case outcomes of high doses of NO2, however, any of these symptoms may develop, especially if the patient has a pre-existing medical condition, such as one that is pulmonary-related.

NIOSH has placed a 1 ppm limit of exposure, with 20 ppm as immediately dangerous to life and health.

ACGIH places a 3 ppm limit over time, and a 5 ppm limit on short term exposure.

Every source available states that proper ventilation and protective gear are required by anyone exposed to even low levels (under 2 ppm) of NO2.

Sources:


WebMedicine – part of WebMD

University of Kansas, Poison Control Center

NIOSH – National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health

OSHA – Occupational Safety and Health Administration

[James M]

So you think I got a whiff of some No2? So, if we know that most of us get a dose of this stuff even in very low levels, is there a way to help remove this junk from you system? Or does this stuff hang around in your body?

Thanks Mike, I have not taken my ventilation lightly, but I don't get a chance to work most of the summer. We have been playing around with where our fresh air intakes come in, So I suppose it is high time I get my intake set-up properly. I am going to run separate ducts that dump right behind our heads, we also have a fair amount of fresh air coming through the windows and under the shop doors but I need to get a nice flow over our heads.

[Mike_Aurelius]

The only way to keep it out of your body is to use plenty of proper ventilation. I don't know how long it stays in the body, however, since nitrogen is a good chunk of the air we breathe, I believe it is removed from your system fairly fast (a couple of days).

[James M]

Well, I am considering buying a No2 detector, it looks like you can get some inexpensive arduino chips and build your own detector. Might be able to find a cheap one somewhere. Then we can further dial in our vent system. Your my boy blue, thanks Mike!. I am gonna need a new set of shades here soon I will be buying from you, It is the least I can do to help reciprocate all the energy you have put into the vent information.

[chillrelaxglass]

Shit i breath the air out of vacstacks daily. Shit tastes so good!

[Mike_Aurelius]

Shit i breath the air out of vacstacks daily. Shit tastes so good!

LOLZ vacuum pumps are your friend!!