Rare flower tool, how does it work?

[PyroManiacal]

I found this and considered making one, and figured it might help to find out the right way to use one first!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/330890981213?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

80116

[FredLight]

You're not getting any ideas just looking at it?

Seems obvious to me.

[Greymatter Glass]

they're primarily for soft glass from a furnace, but knock yourself out :)

[menty666]

Yes, it's totally obvious to me too. Indeed. But why not explain it to make sure we're all on the same page?

Seriously though, how would you use it?

[funksizzle]

A sliding cylinder that fits the blowtube. So get a gather, slide the cylinder up to the gather, set the screws on the cylinder's collar. Press. Slide down/off cyclinder collar, punty/button a tip on the top or side, cut off bottom. Set in glory hole, prepare flower stem.

Seems like that's how'd you make a flower from it.

I would also assume, in modern day here, to heat it up, and dip in beeswax first. The collar would have to come to a taper a little bit for the blowtube. Would look just like the end section of 32 heavy wall, prepped for blowtube, except in metal. With set screw through where you attach blowtube. A longer 1inch section of 1/32 of a inch tubing attached to keep it from falling off better.

Makes sense to me.

But on more consideration, the help would need to have the tube in one hand, and tool in other. Then the gather would need to be elongated to a cylinder. Then heated to just the right level of moltivity, with the base of the gather slightly cooler than front. Then straight from the glory hole, balanced into the tube at like a 45 degree angle to the tool. Otherwise, I don't know if it would be molten enough to fill the crevice to the end.

It also must have been a asian snapping pedal badass flower, because anyone who does rose implosions or anything involving a rose must be wearing some kind of pantyhose or something while they're working. Ewwww.


On more considerations, the helper would have to be right next to the gloryhole with the tube in one hand, tool in other, gather taken right from glory hole into tube. Also would probably need to cylinder out the gather acouple of times, and get it to just the right level of moltivity, and snake it in the tube to be hot enough to fill the crevices.

Tough guy stuff, and it must be a asian snapping pedal flower, because roses are for sissy's.

It was just missing the other secret tool.

Or I guess, a mounted tube, which the tool barely fits into.

Take gather, slide through tube, press tool from other end, slide out, punty, cut excess, to the glory hole, weld to flower, bam.

Pretty easy that way, a 6inch piece of stainless mounted, with a helper for the tool and punty.

This is of course, if those cavities produce pedals, which I don't really know if it would. If it produces something similar, you might just have to snip them apart.

[LooseSeal Baller]

looks like the implosion pattern i'd lay down for a rose marble....

[funksizzle]

Barry, for the last time, noone wants to know why you wear panthose and nightgownie's while making rose implosions, geez. It's sick, and the last time you posted that in another thread, I was disgruntled.

ANyways, this is the third time I had to repeat this, because the edit wasn't working.

The helper will need to be standing next to glory hole with tube in one hand(with mitt), and tool in other. The gather will need to be elongated into cyclinder, a couple times. The back of the gather will need to be slightly cooler than front of gather. Then straight from glory hole, at a 45 degree angle, the gather is balanced into the tube with skill. Otherwise, I don't know if the cavities would be filled all the way.

with that mold, it looks like what would be filled would look like circles or ends of tube. So, either snip, and flatten with butterknife/ripple a little to make it appear as a pedaled flower from a couple feet away.

[LooseSeal Baller]

yeah you do

[Greymatter Glass]

it's a crimp, a tool used to make flower shaped implosions in a hotshop. this explains the basic use of the tool: http://mikegigi.com/crimp.htm

it doesn't go over a tube, and there are no moving parts....

This one is really nice, could be hand held or put in a holder attached to the side of a bench. The length of the petals means you can make some really deep roses....

They don't work with boro, since boro sets up too fast and is too hot for most metal tools to not warp, melt, or off-gas into the surrounding glass.

[funksizzle]

Yup, seems right to me, it just didn'tlook like what I was talking about. Although that technique probably could be done, on a new 3d cnc's mold of a flower. But it would probably be limited to a 3/4 inch or so length to be able to work. As well as thicker pedals. It would need to reverse of that crimp tool or shape. Also, having more of a gap in the center for some of the gather to be pressed into. It could work done right in the way described above, but the pattern of the tight pedals makes it harder to get a flower over 1/2-3/4 inch I would imagine. The press molds need something in the middle open more to get down in the crevices, just like any murini molds.

[funksizzle]

Looks difficult to make one that's for sure, thanks for the link greymatter. I suppose the base of the flowers would start from a 1inch cyclinder stainless steel stock. Then a hole drilled for each pedal. Then a mill, to get the holes for the pedals to pedal's cyliderical like shape. Repeat with each pedal. Metalwork the pedal shapes. Then through the back of the 1 inch cylinder, the pedals are welded. Pedals jammed in real tight/hammered carefully. Or possibly a devise with the crevise for a pedal is stuck over the pedal and hammered in.

So a thin square or curved stock, with crevice milled out for the pedal. This is stuck over pedal, and hammered in gently.

Seems like that would be how you'd make one. two different cyclinders made from solid stainless, milled room for pedals, then tool to fit each pedal fit over them, hammed in, then welded.

I dunno, about a mill that goes 1inch in depth though, I suppose they got em.


On second thought, tempered steel. Even then, getting the pedals thick enough vs. material strength could be a issue with pressure put on it. The pedals would probably have to completly flush upwards or 90 degrees.

Tool design and manufacture process plans, $20 bucks sometime to me, or hook it up with a tool if your crazy enough to make em.

[vetropod]

Holy shit, I just tried to read through these funksizzle posts - does anyone else understand them? One sentence should suffice, it's for making Millville roses. Doug had it covered.

[funksizzle]

Did he cover how to make them? Also, I figured I wouldn't spend 20 minutes putting it in the most logical order. Or did he cover a process for making the actual flower mold using 3d technology and graphite? As well as the way to keep the gather from protruding around the new 3d graphite mold featuring a button in the middle? The sides will contribute to filling the mold all the way down.

See, someone might find this useful, one sentance doesn't work. Details, details, and knowledge. There's shit I know that you don't, there's shit you know I don't, and the more thoughts, and details there are, the more we learn glass.

Also, the model of this flower could be made in 3d. Then If the pedals do not curve inwards or outwards, it should be able to be milled in a cnc out of graphite. Which might actually be easier than the process above, and could've saved the guy who bought it a couple hundred bucks.

[funksizzle]

So, with this tool, does the same pattern need to be drawn on? Or in furnace workers case, do cane slices need to be arranged in the same pattern as the tool, and pressed on at the right spot to implode that pattern as seen? Or cane/ stringer chunks that have been curved, cut, and set in that floral arrangement. Then tool set on carefully, then pressed.

ANyone?

[LooseSeal Baller]

Holy shit, I just tried to read through these funksizzle posts - does anyone else understand them? One sentence should suffice, it's for making Millville roses. Doug had it covered.

:rollin lol

[hashmasta-kut]

Holy shit, I just tried to read through these funksizzle posts - does anyone else understand them? One sentence should suffice, it's for making Millville roses. Doug had it covered.

i think at some point one should get a badge for being able to decipher funksizzle-ese, i am always amazed at teh amount of pizzazz he can fortify things with.

[funksizzle]

true dat. A mixtue of crazy ideas, genious ideas, creativeness, a odd order, mixed with wacky jokes, I understand why people don't get it without reading it like 20 times and a clear head. That's why I don't edit it all, cause it's too much work. I figure if you can decipher some of it, you might learn something you didn't know. But I ain't gonna spell it out with a map, diagrams, drawings with specs cause it's a waste of time. It's like explaining to someone how to exactly make a triple perc, quadruple bubbler from scratch with equiptment. Your gonna need some visual aid, we don't all have the same shit pop up in our minds. I just translate what's in the back of my mind, in the wacky order it's in. Thats kinda glass, you know. When you explain to someone how to make glass things, do you include every step? Move your wrist in a twisting motion at 45 degree for 1.13 milliseconds until you notice gravity ..................Just do 100 clear spoons. See, it's much easier to say do 100 clear spoons. You'll get it, after you fuck up and don't scientifically know why for the first 60 attempts, but eventually you'll get it.

[Din]

Because clearly elucidation a technique, like learning how to clearly express yourself, is a waste of time. Better to vomit out some indecipherable crap.
The tool is a crimp, like Doug mentioned it would be hard or impossible to use properly with boro, but you might be able to make some neat fumed (shallow) implosions with it. It certainly looks cool.

[Greymatter Glass]

dude....

stop over complicating things.

You roll out some sheets of kovar or inconel steel into petals , braze them to a disc of same metal, and attach a handle.

It's not a very complex tool, making it or using it.

[Greymatter Glass]

Because clearly elucidation a technique, like learning how to clearly express yourself, is a waste of time. Better to vomit out some indecipherable crap.
The tool is a crimp, like Doug mentioned it would be hard or impossible to use properly with boro, but you might be able to make some neat fumed (shallow) implosions with it. It certainly looks cool.

I have a spiral crimp somewhere that i got a long time ago, it works sorta for doing air traps but I couldn't get it more than 1/8" into the glass or so, and it always left behind a gray nasty grime on the glass from too much heat.

Also, this tool is probably not something you'd want to use... it's valuable like owning Henry Fords personal spanner wrench. It goes on a shelf or wall in a hot shop as a conversation piece. Tho I imagine it's plenty capable of being used, I doubt whoever bought it will use it.

[Greymatter Glass]

I dunno, about a mill that goes 1inch in depth though, I suppose they got em.


I've seen milling bits 10 feet long. If you can imagine it you can build it. This isn't the god damn dark ages, turn on the TV and watch "Hows It's Made".



Tool design and manufacture process plans, $20 bucks sometime to me, or hook it up with a tool if your crazy enough to make em.

Huh? You want $20 for complicating a design that's been around for probably well over 100 years?



jesus... kids these days.

[somewhere]

$565.55 that is one expensive crimp. That said Joe Hamon made some exceptionally beautiful roses so like Doug said it has historical significance.

I have tried my hand at roses with home made crimps with lousy results. I know the one big trick is pressing it centered over the color bit. Very hard to do without a jig.

What ever happened to Heidi Von Frozen Fire?

[FRGartifacts]

Wow, so it's extreme cognitive laziness that causes you to have no desire to self edit, either for productivity sake, or so that you can appropriately communicate with other human beings. Thanks funk, I think I'm starting to get you. I went from reading about you running a broken hothead while typing short stories about how you don't mind blowing yourself up to reading your reasoning for communicating as you do is due to no desire to actually be understood as it is too much work to filter anything. We all have cognitive processes that fill us with "genius ideas" and all that bull. Most of us CHOOSE to make enough since of it inside first before throwing up our entire mode of mental functioning onto anyone unfortunate enough to pass by. Tact and a little more time spent on self editing would save us all a lot of wasted space and time swimming through your post and subsequent ones like this when all we needed was one cohesive thought to explain one reasonable question. Last thing I hope I feel compelled to express on the subject of the Sizzle. Congrats on your speed and quantity of thought though, maybe just try to accept that the 20 minutes you didn't spend editing ANY of your thoughts before verbalizing them means that 50minutes has to be spent just trying to circumnavigate your train wreck of a communication style.

[funksizzle]

Ya, but if you had used to to the end which I was describing, then you would not want to braze them. Obviously that's the first thought that comes to mind. But then, one might think about fuming/melting tamp of the brazing material used?

Huh?

So for tip implosions, braze. But to use as a mold, you'd have to go about it another way.

Quit spending more time showing disrecpect, and wasting your fucking time writing negative shit.

There are some crabby ass bitchy people on these threads, get your heads outta your asses if your not gonna contribute anything.

I like making stuff, and I like the options. There's a million ways to do things, and some are downright dirtier ways of doing things. Everyone's got something to contribute, but some contribute it in some harsh ass ways.

For instance,

"Hey, you know you can also braze them, that would be the easy, less heavy labor intense way of doing it, although it could be done that way.

My reason for the other method:
It would hold up to heat better, and would have a support structure for heavy pressing. Also, the brazing metal melting point and fumes.

So anyways, I ain't crabby, it's just all the haters, and people that aint got nothing positive to say.

Anyone say good idea, I got some ideas for tools similar to that, and that wouldn't be a bad way of doing it?

O, I have some Ideas for molds, can you elaborate on which type of bits are needed when using on cnc? What type of 3d modeling programs are good for it? Where can one get their 3d model cut at?Who has experience with it?

No, just a bunch of negative shit, except for brazing obviously. So whatever artifact hippy, if your such a humble artifacting hippy of nature, chill out and don't waste ya time not being humble to all of Budda and Jesus's niglets.


And ya, if someone decided to make and sell these tools using that method, I would like 20 bucks, or one of the tools sometime. A little bit of scrap one could say. It's like some kind of ethic thing, someone helps you, you do what you can to help them. Apparently 500 dollar paperweights are made with these things. It would be like, a friendly thing to do, or I think it's referred to as something like that. Just like I thank you for some good info you've put on here Doug. If anyone has stuff has helped me tremendously that sticks out to my glass education, and I see ya, I'll probably hook it up with somethin, you know?

Most recently, Riley, I've noted for really getting down into the details of things and helping people the fuck out. Especially on the signature milli implosion thread I was reading. Gave damn near every detail I need to help get it down, and was very helpful. Now, I gotta figure out my own system yet, but the heavy details sure help in the process. As well as that person that likes cookies. Just kidding, I just remember the cookies.

[funksizzle]

So SOMEWHERE, what do you mean about pressing over the colored bit? Hard to do without a jig, did you have to press lined up with the same colored pattern in order for it to work? Like I asked above, or by colored bit do you mean a glob of color the size of the width of crimp's outside diameter?

This is what I was wondering, as to how these are used to get only the color imploded, and pattern in tact.

[glassdocnc]

What ever happened to Heidi Von Frozen Fire?

It was reported that Heidi got sick of the drama and stopped visiting here and LE.

[menty666]

That and she literally got sick.

[FRGartifacts]

Ya, but if you had used to to the end which I was describing, then you would not want to braze them. Obviously that's the first thought that comes to mind. But then, one might think about fuming/melting tamp of the brazing material used?

Huh?

So for tip implosions, braze. But to use as a mold, you'd have to go about it another way.

Quit spending more time showing disrecpect, and wasting your fucking time writing negative shit.

There are some crabby ass bitchy people on these threads, get your heads outta your asses if your not gonna contribute anything.

I like making stuff, and I like the options. There's a million ways to do things, and some are downright dirtier ways of doing things. Everyone's got something to contribute, but some contribute it in some harsh ass ways.

For instance,

"Hey, you know you can also braze them, that would be the easy, less heavy labor intense way of doing it, although it could be done that way.

My reason for the other method:
It would hold up to heat better, and would have a support structure for heavy pressing. Also, the brazing metal melting point and fumes.

So anyways, I ain't crabby, it's just all the haters, and people that aint got nothing positive to say.

Anyone say good idea, I got some ideas for tools similar to that, and that wouldn't be a bad way of doing it?

O, I have some Ideas for molds, can you elaborate on which type of bits are needed when using on cnc? What type of 3d modeling programs are good for it? Where can one get their 3d model cut at?Who has experience with it?

No, just a bunch of negative shit, except for brazing obviously. So whatever artifact hippy, if your such a humble artifacting hippy of nature, chill out and don't waste ya time not being humble to all of Budda and Jesus's niglets.

And ya, if someone decided to make and sell these tools using that method, I would like 20 bucks, or one of the tools sometime. A little bit of scrap one could say. It's like some kind of ethic thing, someone helps you, you do what you can to help them. Apparently 500 dollar paperweights are made with these things. It would be like, a friendly thing to do, or I think it's referred to as something like that. Just like I thank you for some good info you've put on here Doug. If anyone has stuff has helped me tremendously that sticks out to my glass education, and I see ya, I'll probably hook it up with somethin, you know?

Most recently, Riley, I've noted for really getting down into the details of things and helping people the fuck out. Especially on the signature milli implosion thread I was reading. Gave damn near every detail I need to help get it down, and was very helpful. Now, I gotta figure out my own system yet, but the heavy details sure help in the process. As well as that person that likes cookies. Just kidding, I just remember the cookies.


Thanks for proving my point. Ill go hippying along just artifacting ya bro...lmao

[Greymatter Glass]

What ever happened to Heidi Von Frozen Fire?

Seriously.

And where's Bubba O'Riely?

[Emmett's Glass]

Seriously.

And where's Bubba O'Riely?

Last I heard he was working at the Glass Eye in Seattle.
E

[Greymatter Glass]

yeah I ran into him when I was up that way for GAS... that was like what, 10 years ago?

There's really no excuse for him being AFK for so long.

[vetropod]

..

[PyroChixRock]

I agree. Someone go smack them upside the heads if you live close enough please!

[PyroManiacal]

It always helps to step back and try to view things from another perspective, I kind of imagined it being used to press a layer of color into a clear gather, then implode and cut a flat base. Helpful advise about constructing one, and ideas of how to use them. I'll probably try making a carbon first before a metal one...
Thanks for the input, word.

[Din]

This is an "old forum characters we miss" thread now? Dope, I vote Grandpa.

[glassdocnc]

^ Well if you are going to take it there; the glass community lost Ed Hoy last week. Never saw him over here but he was a great guy.

[Albedo Meniscus]

When using one of these crimps with dear old Bubba, we used a jig to hold both the crimp; with the handle in a vertical position about knee level, and two vee braces about 3' apart, lined up with the axis of the crim,. the bottom vee was about a foot over the crimp face. Gather about three gathers, marver the moil a few passes, marver the gather to a short fat cylinder say 3" by 3 1/2"; get the face hot (the tip that goes into the gloryhole first) quickly invert the pipe 90 degrees onto a tray of color powder on the floor, bring the pipe back to horizontal while turning to keep on center, remarver things back to center if needed, get the whole thing ripping hot (maintaining shape), invert into the two vee's, press down quick like, watching as the sides collapse over the circumference of the crimp like a beer belly (even torus all the way round) yank it up straight and get it horizontal, marver back to the original 3 x 3. Your flower is now about a third to halfway up the center of the gather. Take a heat, marver the side and neck in the face to a 1/2" or so , cut off with diamond shears. Apply leaves. Drop another 2 gather blob on the bottom, block round, punty up, crack off, heal the face using combo gh and torch.
You need the torus to form, it provides some of the mass for the implosion so the flower has clear under it. You marver the side to give it some skin and this helps pull the torus mass in under the center. Use beeswax on the crimp, light coat all over. Too much beeswax causes offgassing and bubbles, not enough and she stick.
41 cobalt 1 coat,or 05 ruby 2 coats, 1 coat of enamel white on the back.
We made these for our friend Greg Englesby, who passed a couple years ago. Those were good times.
Hope this helps.

[somewhere]

When using one of these crimps with dear old Bubba, we used a jig to hold both the crimp; with the handle in a vertical position about knee level, and two vee braces about 3' apart, lined up with the axis of the crim,. the bottom vee was about a foot over the crimp face. Gather about three gathers, marver the moil a few passes, marver the gather to a short fat cylinder say 3" by 3 1/2"; get the face hot (the tip that goes into the gloryhole first) quickly invert the pipe 90 degrees onto a tray of color powder on the floor, bring the pipe back to horizontal while turning to keep on center, remarver things back to center if needed, get the whole thing ripping hot (maintaining shape), invert into the two vee's, press down quick like, watching as the sides collapse over the circumference of the crimp like a beer belly (even torus all the way round) yank it up straight and get it horizontal, marver back to the original 3 x 3. Your flower is now about a third to halfway up the center of the gather. Take a heat, marver the side and neck in the face to a 1/2" or so , cut off with diamond shears. Apply leaves. Drop another 2 gather blob on the bottom, block round, punty up, crack off, heal the face using combo gh and torch. You need the torus to form, it provides some of the mass for the implosion so the flower has clear under it. You marver the side to give it some skin and this helps pull the torus mass in under the center. Use beeswax on the crimp, light coat all over. Too much beeswax causes offgassing and bubbles, not enough and she stick. 41 cobalt 1 coat,or 05 ruby 2 coats, 1 coat of enamel white on the back. We made these for our friend Greg Englesby, who passed a couple years ago. Those were good times. Hope this helps.

Thanks for the memories. A bunch of years ago I was able to visit Englesby's studio. The crimps with the stabilizer arm for the pipe was ingenious. The ingenuity in tool making is what made Englesby such a great value to the glass world. He build some really nice cold working equipment along with everything else.

He is one of the greats I wish I new on a personal level instead of what he left behind.

[HumanLathe]

id use the shit outta this thing making fume implosion flowers...if its the right size that is. now i want one. gonna have to talk to a machinist now lol

[Shattered Dreams]

maybe take a couple different sizes of tubing and cut out notches/reliefs so that you are left with petals in a circle.
put all the tubes one inside the other and secure them with a bolt, screw, weld, or something.
could even put a solid rod in the center with a contoured tip.
ill have to try and make something, it sounds interesting.
i will also gladly except $20 or a prototype if anyone else wants to make it for me,:dieslaugh , im not so great at this toolmaking thing yet.