what would you do?

[D. dino i ninjah]

Ok here is my problem ... sorry for the book but ITs a long story and I really would like others input ..
thanks IN advance for reading
I was asked by a local soft glass furnace worker to make hummingbirds for him ... He wanted 300+ a month at five dollars a piece so I made him 12 as a test run (durring this time I spent hours working to make mine unique and not copys of any of the birds I saw online) ... at that time I told him I needed more like 7.00 a piece to make it worth my time ... He then explained to me that he wants them to sell to an Artist co-op in my state and that he was getting them from china and they found out and that is why he needed in state made birds .. He agrees to the 7.00 price but wants them made only for him as in he is going to claim them as his own work I cant sign them or sell the same product anywhere else... .. I debate the whole ordeal .. but the numbers are like 2000+ dollars a month ... and I have a son .. so I figure fuck it ... if he will pay 7.00 which i feel is a fair wholesale rate then Ill do it ... that week he asks me to come into his studio and do a demo at a glass festival he hold's at his studio... (remember soft glass guy.. furnace worker only) I have known him for a few years and have done this in the past making marbles ...
so I bring my torch and set up giving demos ... He asks me to make a few of the humming birds .. I do .. the whole time Im working one of his employees is watching me asking questions ... he asks me about my torch .. how it works .. ect ect .. they are totally unfamiliar with torch work..
so after the fair.. the guy changes the order to 80 from 300 ..
I make 50 or so in the next week and go in to tell him ... Ill have the 80 done by Wednesday..
When I get there there is a torch set up and his employee is 1/2 assedly attempting to copy my birds .. as in there is one sitting on the bench for reference .... I was mad but kept my cool ... told him about my order and when it would be done and left ... went to grocery store .. just got angrier had to drive by his shop on the way home ... and I could not hold it in ... I went in and told him he was a .... and a.... and also a .... thief .
He acted like I was the one being an ass and said he was trying to help me ... I continued to tell him what I thought of his actions untill his dad who I deeply respect and is Pushing 80 acted like he was going to fight me ... It was then I realized that the situation was heading into a real violent one. I was angry enough at him that I would have liked to have hit him ... but the 80 year old man ... not so much ...

Now Im wondering if I went to far .. I have known the guy for a long time and have helped him a lot over the years ... His dad actually got a broken tip cleaner out of my torch a few years ago and helped me wire up a new relay in my kiln..
But they had no knowledge of torch work prior to meeting me and I have openly shared things with them that I would charge lessons for on several occasions.
When I contacted the co-op I was told that it is against their by laws to submit other artists work as your own... I was told by him that it was ok with the co-op and they were aware that he was out sourcing them but that he still wanted to put his tag on them. ie claim them as his own work.. The co-op also told me they had ordered 300 and not 80.
I feel he was essentially using me to fill the order untill he could get his own employee trained ... and it hurt me .. I can and will be going through the jury process in this co-op to try and get the order ... since they did actually order my birds ... not the bullshit lumpy seams ass made birds his employee who has no experience at all with a torch is making.
But Im still angry I lost a weeks worth of work and hours of development .... What would you do ... or am I just being a baby.. I wonder if I have a right to feel angry. They did not have any Idea how to make the hummingbirds ... that is why they ordered them from me .... but after I came in and did a demo they went out and bought all the equipment I was using and tried to mimic my own work...
I know lots of lamp workers make humming birds but I worked hard to develop my own birds .. and mine are big easily twice the size of the china ones ... I was trying to give him the highest quality product and make it distinctive. Do you think he fucked me ? or Is this really just business and I should get over it ?

[khan]

There is no doubt about it...he is trying to take you for what ever he can get. I think hes a low down piece of crap myself... if he wanted to make birds like yours why wouldnt he have ask you if it was ok and paid you for the design. But no he was going to do it behind your back.
F**k him.

Khan

[kbinkster]

I would suggest: learn from it and move past it.

First of all, I'm sorry all that happened and I'm sorry that whatever relationship you had with this guy and his father is now damaged. I know that's disappointing in and of itself. Fights stink, no matter what the circumstances.

Second, a lot of this could have been avoided. Hind-sight is 20/20 and all that...

If someone shows you who they are, believe them. This guy was willing to be dishonest and pass off someone else's work as his own. Why would he be dishonest to someone else, but honest to you?
You don't know if he planned to copy you all along, or if he hatched that plan after you required a higher price for your birds. Either way, the guy was bad news. And the dad, he's likely going to circle the wagons around his son no matter what. It's no wonder the guy had no trouble defrauding the co-op with your hummingbirds after his import gig got busted.

The next time you hear about a job like that, look into going after it yourself instead of going through someone else less qualified than you. Why sub-contract when you can contract?

Be careful what you let other people see/know. I know everyone is into sharing and all that - and that's great. At some point, though, you can have your own trade secrets and protect information if it means the difference between you feeding your family or going hungry. Besides, part of the joy of learning is discovery. When you teach and demo, let it be a springboard for the student - unless you are teaching a specific item that you are ok with them making and selling.

Next time you are that angry, try to calm yourself down instead of going back to confront them. That situation could have ended up with you hurt or dead. Maybe talking it over with someone else and coming up with a way to discuss the situation - or not, maybe the answer would have been to not talk to those guys at all, but to go to the co-op with what you knew and ask to bid on the job, yourself.

At any rate, what's done is done and I hope you get the order! Just move forward with your business and try to put this ugliness behind you. I sure wouldn't be his friend, anymore. Be prepared for him to talk trash about you and lie to people about you "stealing" the co-op job. If he does, and someone asks you about what happened, tell the truth about what happened. Just use the facts and let them draw their own conclusions about his motives.

[Waffles]

What an asshole to leave you hanging on not getting what he ordered. This is a perfect example of why contracts need to be written out. So both parties knows what's going on. So many times there have been situations where I leave the table after discussing a commission piece only to have it come up later that we were thinking completely differant things. I'm sorry man, thats a shitty situation. Best to.move on and forget.

[menty666]

I lost any respect for him at this:


he was getting them from china and they found out and that is why he needed in state made birds

That's some shady BS right there.

Good luck jurying into the co-op, I'm surprised they didn't boot the furnace guy for the deception. The fact that they didn't, however, might be a flag for you to keep an eye on how the co-op behaves.

[kbinkster]

What an asshole to leave you hanging on not getting what he ordered. This is a perfect example of why contracts need to be written out. So both parties knows what's going on. So many times there have been situations where I leave the table after discussing a commission piece only to have it come up later that we were thinking completely differant things. I'm sorry man, thats a shitty situation. Best to.move on and forget.

^^^ this is one of the things I was thinking about, but forgot to write down - written contract. Always, always, always get your contract in writing.

[Greymatter Glass]

I have walked away from what's been billed as tens, maybe hundreds, of thousands of dollars over the years because people would talk big but not put anything on paper. An offer is only as real as the signature on the contract. The days of a handshake and reputation are long past us.

That said, you were out of line blowing up at them, making a scene, and not being "the bigger man" in this situation. If you had calmly dealt with it, explained that you felt betrayed by their actions, and walked out the door then you could have had some ground to stand on and made them look like the only asshole in the situation - but now they too have a story to tell about the asshole who came into their shop and made a scene and tried to pick a fight. Perspective works both ways, and while from what you've said here it's pretty clear that they are in fact tools who are just out to turn a buck at any cost, you've also harmed your own reputation with people they'll talk to, and when you've been in an industry for decades it's hard to not know people.

As has been said, don't waste what's left of the situation, you can at least still learn something and go to the next experience with the wisdom gained from this adventure... so do that.

Also, since they only asked you not sell your work, assuming they didn't have you sign some sort of exclusivity agreement, you can always sell your work on your own.... so do that too!

-Doug

[D. dino i ninjah]

Thanks for all the input... I am I guess learning from it ... it is a shame but I just never thought that they would be so money hungry as to try and screw me like they did ...
I think you are all right I should not have gone back in there at all and I feel really ashamed of it but ... I have to drive past their studio every time I go to the grocery store ... I was smart enough to leave once ... when I came back in and tried to talk to him he told me I was starting to piss him off ... that is when I lost it and started calling him names. I wanted to know why he felt the right to do what he did .. I guess I gave it to him by doing business with him in the first place . I don't make a lot of art glass ... mostly do pipe work. I can make pipes just fine and make a living. But I liked the Idea of helping them. Its a hard lesson to learn ... they are a really well established shop in my area and I have been close to them for a lot of years. I felt like they were my glass friends .. Its not really the money that hurts me ... Its the total lack of respect. Oh well Again thanks for taking the time to read my story and respond .. I feel like other glass artists are the only people who could give me honest answers ... Thanks

[Aaron Ellis]

Un fortunately its how a lot of people do business but he's f*#@ING you and I would try and stop it. Atleast with the co-op.

[BORO]

If I were really as mad as I think you are. ( and I would be , for sure)

Letter to your editor , they will eat that story up .

don't even use your name.

Let your community decide with there wallet.

force the co-op to do something , with publicity.

[istandalone24/7]

yup i agree. spread this story to as many in your area as you can.

[RamblezMarblez]

I totally would have pushed that employee over and be like here, let me show ya a trick and eventually try to make money off their studio...You flipped out b/c someone built a glass studio???Lol! Wow man...ya know there's millions of people who wants to buy a glass bird and feeder...Everyone starts at the bottom of the ladder when we start blowing glass. I think when someone explodes, it's a reflection of their own personality...

[istandalone24/7]

ramblez, i think you're missing out on a few key points here.

they basically bent him over. too bad there wasn't a contract signed....that could have prevented this from being an issue.

[swillz]

Yea fck that guy. Take it as a learning experience. Do onto him as he has done to you. Blow that fckrs spot up!! And sign all you birds as you took time an effort to make them unique. And always always take note when someone is dealing work dishonestly or treats anyone dishonestly as they will more than likely treat you that way.

[Raimond]

Take a pic of all original work in front of or next to a well known newspaper on your bench to secure the date and location.
A verbal contract is not binding in court, signed in pen or a reply by email is sufficient in most states.

[Emmett's Glass]

Call the place when doofus isn't there and leave a message saying his shipment of china hummingbirds is in. Do this often, leaving fake names & #'s.
E

[D. dino i ninjah]

Hopefully anyone who reads this and doesn't know better then .. you shou try to learn from my mistakes ...

Ramblez you are right .. there are tons of people who set up glass shops and I don't have a right to get mad at them .. But this guy used the knowledge he has gained from seeing me do something to attempt to copy my work..
Also your right about it being a reflection of my personality ..
I tend to Fight for what I believe in ... As a kid I fought a lot .. Im a fighter.. I don't run from confrontations I run into them. ( as some on the forum may know... I tend to be a bit bull headed) But as I get older I have learned the hard way that It really does not solve anything ... so ... I am learning from the experience..
For any one reading this ...
The lesson I learned is ... NEVER ... NEVER... Agree to make something for some one and allow them to sell it as their own work ... They are basically asking you for permission to Fuck you and will do so ..
That is better than a free hummingbird tutorial ... as far as advice ...
thanks again to all who replied ..

[misled youth]

lol, i used to sell small cases of pipes to peeps whom all claimed they made them when they would go around selling them. never really gave 2 shits, but one day a fella got all cocky with me about it.
i sold the idiot 50 spoons and he wanted a better deal. he proceeded to bitch and moan. i left his place and forgot about it. 2 days later i was at a party and dude was there
sellin the spoons and tellin people how skilled he was. a few people mentioned to him that there was another piper there and he proceeded to talk shit about his skills being so much better "he had no idea it was me".
after a lil bit i decided to confront him and dude got all high strung "knew he was caught up" so rather then come clean he keeps pushing that he has major skills and that he is far superior. "this cat spent about 10 mins on my torch bending 6mil rod"
by that time like 20 people were paying attention. someone brought up that we should go to my shop and see who could make a better piece. i smiled and sure, oddly enough he agreed as well. we went to my shop with about 30 extra people and i busted out a spoon right quick. this dumbass steps up and blows the torch out like 15 times in a row.
then goes off that my torch is a POS and he cant work on it.
it was so crazy to me to see someone go that far to hide a lie. needless to say he took off and then i clued everyone in on the fact that he bought all the pipes from me and was just trying to act cool. everyone laughed and were shocked. i ended up selling like 500$ worth of stuff to all them peeps and had a great session.
dude showed up like a week later wanting to buy some more wares, i smiled and said sure.
he never stopped telling people that he was a piper and that he had mad skillz.

i enjoyed the whole thing a great deal, and never really cared that he was claiming my work. as long as i got the $$$ in my pocket i am happy. "if it was something nice that i actually put work into i would have cared"

not sure why but i thought that story was relevant to this thread.

i to am a fighter so i understand where you are coming from, but i learned long ago "you cannot knock stupid out of people"
dude screwed ya over, learn a lesson and get over it. you honestly got the better end of the deal though IMO because you learned his true character.
you do not need to associate with people like that, no one does.
signatures on paper is the only way to go! i have been to many headshops and had them place orders that i spent days or weeks filling and then showed up with the goods just to hear some BS

and yes, you prolly did a little damage to your rep. but in the words of forest gump "it happens"
if anyone brings it up tell them your side and leave it at that. they will choose whom they believe on there own

as far as "wondering if you have the right to feel angry?" fuck yeah you do, you have the right to feel however you please. this is AMERICA :)

any chance we can see a pic of said bird?

[samoth890]

Op, that is a bummer. People are seriously greedy sometimes, and willing to go to disturbing measures to get what they want. That guy sounds shady, and not worth your rage. Just write him off as scum that will go nowhere like that. Especially trying to pick up torching just for the sake of ripping you off. Sometimes you do just have to live and learn though, frustrating and unfair and unfortunate as it is. And also, if you didn't sign anything, then screw him telling you you can't sell them. Force his lameness outta town with your superior craftsmanship! :D

Misled youth I liked that story. I kinda hope I run into that situation someday, hahah.

[notsure]

lol, i used to sell small cases of pipes to peeps whom all claimed they made them when they would go around selling them. never really gave 2 shits, but one day a fella got all cocky with me about it.
i sold the idiot 50 spoons and he wanted a better deal. he proceeded to bitch and moan. i left his place and forgot about it. 2 days later i was at a party and dude was there
sellin the spoons and tellin people how skilled he was. a few people mentioned to him that there was another piper there and he proceeded to talk shit about his skills being so much better "he had no idea it was me".
after a lil bit i decided to confront him and dude got all high strung "knew he was caught up" so rather then come clean he keeps pushing that he has major skills and that he is far superior. "this cat spent about 10 mins on my torch bending 6mil rod"
by that time like 20 people were paying attention. someone brought up that we should go to my shop and see who could make a better piece. i smiled and sure, oddly enough he agreed as well. we went to my shop with about 30 extra people and i busted out a spoon right quick. this dumbass steps up and blows the torch out like 15 times in a row.
then goes off that my torch is a POS and he cant work on it.
it was so crazy to me to see someone go that far to hide a lie. needless to say he took off and then i clued everyone in on the fact that he bought all the pipes from me and was just trying to act cool. everyone laughed and were shocked. i ended up selling like 500$ worth of stuff to all them peeps and had a great session.
dude showed up like a week later wanting to buy some more wares, i smiled and said sure.
he never stopped telling people that he was a piper and that he had mad skillz.

i enjoyed the whole thing a great deal, and never really cared that he was claiming my work. as long as i got the $$$ in my pocket i am happy. "if it was something nice that i actually put work into i would have cared"

not sure why but i thought that story was relevant to this thread.

i to am a fighter so i understand where you are coming from, but i learned long ago "you cannot knock stupid out of people"
dude screwed ya over, learn a lesson and get over it. you honestly got the better end of the deal though IMO because you learned his true character.
you do not need to associate with people like that, no one does.
signatures on paper is the only way to go! i have been to many headshops and had them place orders that i spent days or weeks filling and then showed up with the goods just to hear some BS

and yes, you prolly did a little damage to your rep. but in the words of forest gump "it happens"
if anyone brings it up tell them your side and leave it at that. they will choose whom they believe on there own

as far as "wondering if you have the right to feel angry?" fuck yeah you do, you have the right to feel however you please. this is AMERICA :)

any chance we can see a pic of said bird?

I knew a guy like this! Was his name J.J.?

[Tkglass]

Had a guy ask me to make those birds to. He was selling those Chinese birds like crazy around WV. I would buy Chinese and sell them to him as your own.

[Neko]

very deceptive, but you should of expected it when he asked you to demo the birds. i would attempt to get the order from the coop, he would feel pretty stupid if he did all that for nothing