Honey comb help? dots are melting together and disappearing

[ahreno]

So i'm trying to work on my fumed honey combs. I think i'm getting close to fuming right (the gentec torch makes this very easy). However, once i blow thin and dot i start melting the dots in... i have the point horizontal and am using a soft bushy flame to condense... however every time the damn dots just melt into each other and essentially disappear. Anyone have any tips for this for me? I dont seem to have this isses when i coil pot color and honecomb

[PyroChixRock]

Pics always help us give advice, but I'll try and hope I understand you correctly.

Is the bubble so thin they are collapsing when you melt them in and then touching?

How far apart are the dots to begin with? How thing is the bubble and how big are the dots?

Ok so you're only having this problem with fuming...are you fuming after you blow the bubble out thin? If not switch to doing that.

[ahreno]

Its hard to take a picture of the dots melting together... I fume, then blow the bubble paper thin. put dots kinda close together, maybe 1-1.5mm apart. they seem to just melt into the bubble. i'll try to snap a picture in a couple minutes.

[PyroChixRock]

So the problem is with the fume burning off? Fume after you blow it out, see if that changes anything.

[Greymatter Glass]

Yeah fuming after you blow it out helps. I make "cups" to start. Attach a 5 or 6mm rod to the end of a point, blow the point out a bit, then pull off the handle to have a kind of janky wine glass cup on the rod, I fume that, then reattach a blow tube. Now the punty I started with gets melted off and becomes the middle dot for the pattern....

Also, the bubbles don't need to be paper thin, too thin and the dots will all melt together and leave little to no fume between them... basically double the diameter (or a bit more, not 3x) of your tube should work well. If you need more room for more dots, start with a larger thinner walled tube. I do a lot of my honeycombs on 32x2.8mm tube, but if I need a bigger one I'll step up to 38x1.8 or 50x1.2 which is not much more glass by weight for the same length, but it's a much larger surface area to put dots on.

When you condense everything in make sure you stick with the angle that works for you, moving it back and forth (or up and down) will gather all the clear dots to the front/top of the honeycomb and push the fumed glass to the back/bottom of the piece, and you won't have much of a result.

I went through this whole ordeal a few months back myself, I couldn't get the dots to stay put and displace the fume... was going crazy (it's worked fine for years) ... I never figured out what I was doing wrong, but it sorted itself out a few days later on its own I guess. Maybe that will happen for you.

[ahreno]

from what i understand (understood?) in order to get the crazy honeycombs from the thread called "the chase for the perfect honeycomb color" or whatever, i need to open a point on simax, fume with an oxygen flame until its reflective silver, close point, blow thin, dot, condense, let cool till no gow and then reheat/flame strike I have some pictures coming in a minute

[Captain Glass]

That's what I do, sort of I don't fume with a oxygenated flame more of a neutral flame and then fume til it's reflective or black and then burn it all off with a very oxygenated flame.

[ahreno]

ok, here's some pictures.

The amount of fume:
56894

56895

Blown bubble:
56896

Dots:
56897
56898

Starting to condense, this is about the point that i notice the dots have all melted in together.
56899

This is before the first flame strike. I get some interesting results but not what i'm looking for. I was able to pull some purples/reds after striking but i think most of the "character" of the condensing is coming from where the flared out opening closes together.
56900

[rye]

thats more than enough fume

[ahreno]

more than enough fume in regards to a normal honeycomb or more than enough in regards to getting the crazy rainbow honeycombs? I ask because in that other thread everyone keeps stressing you need a TON of fume... like 10minutes worth of fuming, four chunks of silver, reflective silver after fumed.

[Ybot]

thats plenty of silver, just dont rush. How thin is that bubble? i found they need to be fairly thin to get the good waffle look deep inside later.

[jr23]

Too much silver. Blow your bubble thinner. You will get better results.

[ahreno]

To the people saying "too much silver" are you saying this out of experience making honeycombs like THIS (http://www.talkglass.com/forum/showthread.php?39816-The-Evolution-of-Honeycombs-quot-The-Quest-of-The-Perfect-Color-quot&p=720716#post720716)? Everyone in that thread says to fume this much ("Fume heavy so that it looks like a silver mirror" and "Fume the inside of the bubble heavily until it's shiny silver" and "the more silver you add the deeper purples you get" and "Usually with ANYTHING else on fume, I would tell you less is more, but that just isn't the case with purple honeycombs. When you think you have enough, add more!").

sorry, not trying to argue or anything, but it seems to me that the amount of silver i have is what those guys are suggesting.

[Jiggy Boro]

My advice is to blow it out thinner, and use fatter dots. Im talking paper thin, almost uncomfortably thin, big globber dots, and take some extra time to melt in the dots. Melt them in very slowly.

[ahreno]

yeah, i'm guessing that it's getting too hot when i'm melting it in... it seems like if i use my center fire that i can't get it hot enough but if i kick on the outer fire that it gets too hot... guess its just going to take more trial and error.

[Captain Glass]

I've also noticed that when you have a super thin bubble and are placing the dots down that when you flame cut the rod away leaving the dot if you pull at all so it sort of brings the thin bubble part into the dot it makes the finished honeycomb look wrong. I might not have explained it very well but I've noticed it when I've made them.

[PyroChixRock]

I'd say after looking at the pics that if you blow it out a little thinner, and work it farther out in the flame, you might have a better result. Also try using a bit more glass on each dot. Like my dots are as high as they are wide. Hope this helps. Show us your results. :)

[ahreno]

results are in the kiln. Nothing to special. I'm using the marbles as centers for flowers and i just bumped the punty rod off my last one and it shattered on the floor. I rage quite blowing for a few hours.

[Kato]

Try condesning the bubble more evenly. It looks like your hitting the face with too much heat and it's causing the lens in the piece to gather in on itself too much.

[ahreno]

so heat more along the edge as opposed to the face?

[PyroChixRock]

Kato, good call. I didn't think of that, but ya...Ahreno, try to heat more of the entire thing at the same time so it all melts in at the same rate.

[Kato]

so heat more along the edge as opposed to the face?

Exactly, if you want to get a honeycomb by just heating the face; you would need to just honeycomb the face alone. Pretty much wherever there are dots there needs to be even heat displacement.

Also, if you haven't already; try having a bit if extra tubing behind your combed bubble to act as an extra bit of leverage for your meltdown. Condensing an entire combed bubble evenly on a point can be brutal.

[Greymatter Glass]

Also, when dealing with LOTS of silver, you have to make sure you don't oxidize it. Remember, the silver you care about is that first layer... backing it with more silver adds a layer of protection, and the whole point of getting a mirror finish isn't so much the volume of silver, as knowing that the silver hasn't oxidized too much.

Of course the more you add the more you can cook it in...but I suspect there's a point of diminishing return that's generally far exceeded by most people.

[ahreno]

It sounds like if anything, I'm reducing it too much.

[jr23]

Plenty of combs done.

In your finished pick I see you are getting the reds. But no depth to your comb or halo effect. The dots can melt together its the space in between the dots on the inside of your blank that draw up into the implosion honey MIBs like the cheese nip ones you posted.

So to get that nice imploded halo phantom thing going your blank needs to be thin and your dots placed with decent spacing and thickness.

I would not start fully making MIBs out of them until you know they will have a pattern.

The one you showed , did not show a pattern

[mistahead]

i do what Greaymatter does...for whatever reason when i fume inside a point and close it i don't get great results, i usually use 25 mill, blow a bubble on the end and punty up to it and pull off a cup to fume into it.

i find it easier to get better quality fume here because i like to use a really light fuming flame so i don't get scuzzy fume, attach that back to the 25 mill and blow it pretty f'n thin, quite a bit thinner than what it looks like you got there, dot and then really slowly condense with a really reducing flame so you don't burn the fume out,

And as Kato is saying you need to condense the whole thing at first, not just the front, like your making a nice hollow honeycomb section for a piece and then turn THAT into a marble, if that makes sense?!?!

But yea, I've done a lot of combs and i just don't get them proper without the cup method...if you want instant gratification combs use blow in sections (amazons,exotics,striking type colours), the silver only ones are quite tricky to learn to get them into rainbow combs.

[Captain Glass]

Oooo that kind of makes sense now. If you space out the dots like this olllllo with the l's being the fumed space instead of olo , more of the fume will be trapped inbetween the dots as they move together during the condensing process. Did I understand that correctly jr23 ?

[KLAW]

I've always done my honeycombs as a thin ripped off cup on a punty, then dot with clear on the inside, then fume, then start to close up by heating from the "outside" edge/back of the cup and marvering until closed just close enough to match up with the point I pulled it off and cleaned and left open straight tube or even flared out a bit....like this...w/the opened up cup on the left and open point on the right... -----c==----- ... And then remove punty and reduce down...then I'm never hitting the fume OR dots with the flame and making them go away/change at all...& it makes the fume travel way far out into the clear because the dots sandwich it as they condense together... I've tried the other way and just don't see the point to do it that way if you want that fume to go way out into the clear and risk a change in the fume by blowing it thin after fuming or touching a flame to it that's the wrong chemistry/heat or to the dots at all and have the chance of making them melt away at all, and then of course I like that the fume travels way far out into the clear that way...and that no matter what the honeycomb dots will be visible and deep...& pretty much just comes down to the fume job I did for color(which becomes easier to judge too because its not being modified later by a certain amount of stretch)... I guess it all depends on if you want a flatter comb surface with a "layer" of fume over it or deep holes connected by wispy long "Rays" of fume that fade way far out into the clear(almost like solar flares on the sun), instead of a layer of fume fog hugging to its flatter surface...guess it does just come down to how far I want that fume to travel out into the clear away from the Comb Surface, for which of the techs I'm going to choose to do...Either way I prefer a cup method though...

[LooseSeal Baller]

I've always done my honeycombs as a thin ripped off cup on a punty, then dot with clear on the inside, then fume, then start to close up by heating from the "outside" edge/back of the cup and marvering until closed just close enough to match up with the point I pulled it off and cleaned and left open straight tube or even flared out a bit....like this...w/the opened up cup on the left and open point on the right... -----c==----- ... And then remove punty and reduce down...then I'm never hitting the fume OR dots with the flame and making them go away/change at all...& it makes the fume travel way far out into the clear because the dots sandwich it as they condense together... I've tried the other way and just don't see the point to do it that way if you want that fume to go way out into the clear and risk a change in the fume by blowing it thin after fuming or touching a flame to it that's the wrong chemistry/heat or to the dots at all and have the chance of making them melt away at all, and then of course I like that the fume travels way far out into the clear that way...and that no matter what the honeycomb dots will be visible and deep...& pretty much just comes down to the fume job I did for color(which becomes easier to judge too because its not being modified later by a certain amount of stretch)... I guess it all depends on if you want a flatter comb surface with a "layer" of fume over it or deep holes connected by wispy long "Rays" of fume that fade way far out into the clear(almost like solar flares on the sun), instead of a layer of fume fog hugging to its flatter surface...guess it does just come down to how far I want that fume to travel out into the clear away from the Comb Surface, for which of the techs I'm going to choose to do...Either way I prefer a cup method though...

i'm confused????

are you trying to say you get the same type of honeycomb, even though you're describing inside out work???? I don't think what you are talking about is the same result, actually I'm sure it doesn't.

:bangHead:

maybe im not sure... pics?

[istandalone24/7]

yea Klaw's method i've never heard of....not saying it doesn't work just saying pretty much everyone i've asked dots the outside.

[Shattered Dreams]

its the same thing if you think about it,
fume is on the very inside, then clear on the outside.
with one method the fume is in an even layer and the dots on the outside push the fume in forming pockets as they melt in.

with klaws method, you are shaping those pockets first by putting clear dots, then fuming over them. then melting it all in.

I bet you would get some really deep pockets if you did both methods.

[KLAW]

No they deff look a lil different (especially if you put the same dots...however you can make them look very similar with diff flatter dot shapes on the inside one) but it is a honeycomb and does look 99% the same. When the topic went to the fume going out into the clear farther I was just saying that if you want that fume to do that and fade way far out into the clear that its an easier way to achieve it... And it is and yet its not your typical inside out dots, you know... Its not the ones that are bumped out because the clear dots are put down before the fume then fumed over top yet is basically ISO that has been condensed into a honeycomb mib on the end...I do them both ways, just saying if you want a honeycomb where the fume fades way far out into the clear that its the easiest route...Which is what I was looking for when I stumbled upon it experimenting one day with the normal tech...I'll try to post pics later today, but if you try it I guarantee you will like and keep it and deff if you get results you like the normal way and are looking for the fume to fade far out...They are basically the same, except that the clear dots are applied to the inside instead of being essentially pushed in from the outside...

So was I really the first person to do it this way in addition to the norm? Did I accidentally create a new honeycomb mib tech then? Because the results of the tech deff are worth keeping/doing if you want that fume to travel way far into the clear...

[ahreno]

man, this forum is sure picky on size of photos you can upload. Any reason pictures have to be so small or why can't this forum just auto resize them? I even dropped my phone down to 1.3 mega pixels and i still have to bring them into photoshop. ergh.

In any case, here's some from my when i started this thread. I'm getting some colors from the fume, so i think i must be semi close. I know the marbles i'm making are janky and i should stop as soon as they dont have a pattern but whats the fun in that... i figure i need the practice in rounding marbles, backing, and ive been using them as centers in flowers for christmas gifts... its all practice in the end. I do really like the random whispy effects i get from where the tube closes back up... granted its not what i'm going for but it's still a cool effect.

From what i can tell i'm reducing the silver too much, assumedly when i'm fuming it. Would anyone be willing to post a picture of the flame they use (preferably if you're on a gtt)? It seems as soon as i turn the propane down or oxygen up, i can't get the silver to fume. The silver either boils on the punty or i dont get any fume off it. It seems like my little gentec hand torch fumes like a champ, i can get the reflective silver effect in about 30 seconds.... though on this too it seems too reduced even though there's just a tiny bit of propane being used. The joys of learning. The colors in the flower were kind of hard to capture.

569435694456945569475694856949

[ahreno]

here's a picture of a honey comb i just did on some coil potted mystery adventuring (i think)... i did this just to make sure i could still do a normal honeycomb without the dots getting stupid. 56950

[PyroChixRock]

I'll adjust some pic settings tomorrow but from what I recall without looking it needs to be smaller than 1080 x 1080. I could be off though. iPhone pics are bigger by default, and with mobile apps being the go to now I will rework some things to make it easier. It should be resizing them for you, but it might not if you are uploading more than one at a time and the server load is high at the time.

[ahreno]

yeah, i was trying to upload 6 at a time... is this a current version of vbulletin or an old one?

[TacosGlass]

thank you so much to everyone in this thread, I was finally able to get a good honeycomb! (I've been lurking hard on all this honeycomb action) I was at first getting the same results as the OP
the cup-transfer to blow tube, and spacing the dots far enough were key tips for me
one thing I also realized I wasn't doing before, was pressing my dots in well enough, some dots I would lightly dab on and I believe those would lead to a heavy lense and no honeycomb definition

here's a blurry pic
http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j344/budtacos/5D31E144-DDC7-40F3-A841-624E7888797A-32188-00000C2D4CC48E42_zps8f496f03.jpg

I didn't do a ton of fuming either, just got it decently gold

[TacosGlass]

here's a less blurry one:
http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j344/budtacos/C50A0E14-8E77-41E4-913D-7C53BCC5455C-32188-00000C2CD12CEBB7_zps607beac6.jpg

so stoked I felt the need to give back, donated some to this great site! holiday cheer to all!

[PyroChixRock]

yeah, i was trying to upload 6 at a time... is this a current version of vbulletin or an old one?

current. but it might not resize 6 at a time if there are a lot of things happening on the server. If you have problems again try doing one at a time. Also I will tweak some settings.

[ahreno]

nice work Taco, glad the thread helped you. I'm still trying.

[KLAW]

I havnt done it in a long time, so i couldn't get my fume anywhere near right but here is a picture of a comb that resulted from my method i mentioned above that i had stumbled upon one day messing around, that's different from everyone else's...Where you dot the inside of the cup, then fume and attach to open point then condense down to solid(except for hollow center if desired like mine)...

Oh and i had mentioned doing flatter dots to get a result that's closer to the normal techs results and i had that backwards its taller dots not flatter...But even though i couldn't get my fume job heavy enough(first comb or fume for that matter that i've done in months) and i couldn't get a good pic at all because my phones focus lock wasn't working for some reason...it came out decent enough though to show how similar they are(i'll do it again to show what it normally looked like with the right fume job and i'll do a flatter dot one too to show how different they look and how far the fume goes out into the clear that way) Let me know if you try it my way though, Because its way easier to get consistent results(especially for beginners) you might like just as much or better if your looking for a certain look...So thus i pass it on for the world of glass to enjoy and play with and perfect...Have Fun!!

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-eDtcSeMyeDE/UrEtNXRBoZI/AAAAAAAAAY4/TEIjfjGDxQ8/w473-h594-no/043f0eee-f49d-46d3-9def-92577677f4f1
Even though i didn't get the fume job i normally got, it still looks way better in person since i couldnt get a good pic either...couldn't get the nice purples & reds it has in real life...

[ahreno]

what kind of torch are you on? I'd love to see a picture of the flame you use for fuming. I think thats my biggest issue right now. i can get it to fume nice and heavy but it always seems reduced.... but if i add oxy or take away propane it doesn't seem to want to fume. nice honeycomb. the effect looks very similiar to dots on the outside in my opinion.

[KLAW]

Well to be honest... Your fume job you posted looked way better then the one i did on that one... Its been so long since i've done one that i couldn't remember how to fume that much:) & i've just left it like that all mirrored and i've burned it off with an oxygenated flame, before i closed it up and have seen no difference at all...but then again that wasn't struck at all either...in that pic it looks opaque and creamy a bit but in real life its 100% see through & the colors that look creamy in mine actually are reddish orangish purplish colors, but for some reason the only pic i could take that was focused had it creamy and opaque whiter looking cuz of the light on it i guess...

I'm just using my Lynx center fire on my Phantom... In your last pic was that an attempt at my version of the tech? It almost looks like some of the results i had when i tried pouring NS-Amber Purple powder in one...which ive never had any luck with in any tech...Try my tech & make a cup on a punty and put as many dots as you can inside it (close together is fine as long as not touching) and then go back and try to add to each dot again and make them taller...Then fume like you normally do...Then try one leaving it all chrome & heat the cup from the back and marver until small enough to put on the end of the tube you started with open straight....always heating the cup from that back angle...If you need to wrap a layer around the gap to fill any holes that happen from a wrinkled cup thats fine...Then try the same thing with burning that chrome off until just a little brown and transparent and try it to see if you get diff results...really i havnt seen much of a diff, but like i said i didnt strike it at all...

The only thing that ive ever ran into that changes the results is when the fume job looks like a matte scuzy flat finish and not slick and shiny like you want(& looks like you had got fine in post #8)...But yeah try my way and just put as many dots as you can fit, as tall as you can get them(to get a look like original tech...just one application or melted in round a bit gives big loops of fume that travel way far out into the clear) on the inside of the cup and then fume...then close up until can connect cup to the end of the tube/open point...seal any gaps without pointing the flame towards the inside of the cup side(if ness.) and condense from the sides of the cup and bottom of the cup evenly going between an elbow up and a level elbow...Post some pics and let me know how it goes & if you saw a diff w/leaving it shinny or burning the reflection off with a more oxygenated flame...Either way you should get more of a honeycomb way easier...Good Luck!

[KLAW]

Heres a pic of the cup from that comb, that was dotted and then i had fumed over the dots...before i closed it up enough to match back with the 25mm tube i took the cup off to make it...The lights reflecting off the mirrored surface a bit making it look more silver then it was, i could tell it wasnt as thick my usual fume job on them would of been... Anyone trys my way out let me know how it goes for you...I wanna see someone that does them baller style the normal way do one cuz even my ones done with the original tech arnt near the colors of say like CheeseNips...
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/jQx_h2BvXT4LrIgXp5CQjqwKAvhegtukNCk31fNcXto=w446-h594-no

EDIT: Another thing is sometimes with the original tech you can see the clear dots in the clear part of the finished Mib if not done right or with dirty/bubbled clear...Speaking of which I wanted to ask...Taco... Was yours you just posted with the original dots on the outside tech or was it my tech with the dots on the inside then fumed method? Cuz if you look close you can see the clear dots in the clear area of yours so I figured it was the original, but I'm sure could happen for one reason or another with either method...(dirty clear or bubbles from heat maybe?...just re-read & noticed you pushed in while dotting and I believe that's how that happens now)

[LooseSeal Baller]

nice. i was wrong, great job!! klaw

[Captain Glass]

Kris I tried repping you but I need to spread it around a little bit.

You should send a couple of those to your old friend Mateo for a little collab action.

[KLAW]

Thanks BA...Although I do have to say that like I said if I would of done flatter dots it would of looked way different...I'll have to do one here soon to show how far it goes out into the clear and can look a bit different...

Sure Matty I'll send you that one and a couple other things if you want to add em to a piece for a little cross country collabo!!

[Captain Glass]

Doooooooooo eeeeeeeeeet !

[ahreno]

Getting some better results. Still not the desired result but the fume is coloring in nice. I've been doing the cup method. I tried dotting on the inside but that wasn't happening.

I'm a bit confused though, after reattaching the bubble to a blowtube I start condense... The dots are keeping their shape but am I supposed to implode them or just condense it down so the front of the bubble is the lens? Dumb question probably. Pictures to follow in an edit. Not letting me post from my phone and resisze. :/

[KLAW]

If your talking about my method make sure you don't blow it out at all except to make a bubble to rip off and open up to form the cup in the first place...then dot it up like in my pic or a reg honeycomb (you can go back and add to each dot to make them taller to get a look that's more like the original tech) then fume and then close the cup up just until it fits back on the tube you took it off...(like a sideways "U" shape on the end of the tube) make sure its good and sealed and an easy way to do that if you wrinkled the cup during closing it back up to fit the tube is to just wrap and then melt in a strip of 5mm clear around the connection to fill any gaps... This is where with the reg method you blow out and dot out side (of the whole bubble not just the tip half) but with mine you do not blow it out at all... And then for either method when you condense it back to solid you Do Not want to just heat the tip...you want to heat all around the sides and the tip evenly, rotating between levely horizontal flat to tip down occasionally (aka elbow up) if you want a more rounded marble shape or more flat and less elbow up if you want to end up with a more flat cup ish shape to say cap a spoon pipe or something (but you still need to heat back far just as much to get any back dots to show up... Some more pics of the results you have been getting will help a lot to better point you in the right direction... And I'm very interested in what resulted when you attempted my method because it should be extremely easier...I've had many people since I posted it thank me and say they are actually getting honeycombs now when they couldn't at all with the original tech... But yeah with either tech you never want to heat an area with dots any more or less than any other area with dots...the angles at which you hold it at is what decides the end shape you want of either a flatter cap vs. rounded marble shape...

Oh and post pics of all your steps if you can, it will help a lot...:) & also with posting pics I found the easiest way to do it so you never have to worry about size or amount is to get a google+ account (or any other online place to put pics) and load as many and as big a pics as you want on there and then if using google chrome for Internet you can just right click it and click "copy URL" or if in Internet explorer right click then click properties and then highlight and copy the URL address and then when you put them here on TMP click the "from URL" tab and paste it in the link area and un check the box under it before you submit it...then your pics can be full size and not have to be modified or saved on TMP's server...

[KLAW]

And actually if your going to stick with the outside dot tech method I would just stick with the non-cup version until you get your dots forming right...unless you don't mind the extra work and practice & risk of failure(however it is good general glass blowing practice to do the added more difficult steps)...cuz its only real benefit is so that you don't get the little trail of fume on the tip...

Oh and that reminds me too...did you ever try leaving it all mirrored and reflective and then also try burning off the mirror to a light transparent brown with an oxy flame to see if it gave you a diff in color?...to me I don't get much if any diff results, seems to come down to if my fume job is a slick and shinny mirrored surface on good ones or a matte scuzzy not slick and smooth mirror on the bad ones I've done in the past...

[jr23]

So you are claiming inside out dots as your tech.

I know guys that make MIBs like that for years.

Although "your tech" does make a resemblance of a honeycomb MiB.

If used for sections of hollow work not work well.

Or for color combs.

The beauty of the honeycomb tech once learned is it works for fume,color,frit,MIBs,pipes,ect.

Why not learn it. Why avoid it, its so easy.

[istandalone24/7]

i seriously doubt he was saying that he invented that tech....just saying that was how he does them. lighten the fuck up.

and he IS practicing/learning so ease up.

sorry i'm just very sick of dickheadedness.

[ahreno]

Oh and that reminds me too...did you ever try leaving it all mirrored and reflective and then also try burning off the mirror to a light transparent brown with an oxy flame to see if it gave you a diff in color?...to me I don't get much if any diff results, seems to come down to if my fume job is a slick and shinny mirrored surface on good ones or a matte scuzzy not slick and smooth mirror on the bad ones I've done in the past...

yeah, i've been burning it off in my last few. seems to work so i'll probably stick to that. Thanks for the descriptions on elbow up and down. it clarified it for me. Ive been working on getting the fume tech down and not paying too much attention to my honey combs. now that the fume is coming out i'm going to work on the dots. I do think theres a cool effect that comes from the wisps of closing the point back down. I almost like the effect better than a honeycomb. I'm going to try a few things with causing wrinkles when closing and purposely going for wisps.

57040570415704257043

[PyroChixRock]

I know you're not going to want to hear this, but that still looks like too much fume.

[KLAW]

So you are claiming inside out dots as your tech.

I know guys that make MIBs like that for years.

Although "your tech" does make a resemblance of a honeycomb MiB.

If used for sections of hollow work not work well.

Or for color combs.

The beauty of the honeycomb tech once learned is it works for fume,color,frit,MIBs,pipes,ect.

Why not learn it. Why avoid it, its so easy.

Jr23...ISA247 Is Exactly Correct...I never said i invented the tech...In fact a couple posts ago i said "Am I Really The First Person To Do It This Way?" Because I Seriously Would Doubt It... By me saying "my way" or "my tech" or whatever i would of hoped it was pretty obvious to everybody that i was saying "the way i do" or "the tech i did"...kind of hard to say anything else with a tech that has no name...

Are You Saying This:

Why not learn it. Why avoid it, its so easy.
To Me? Because if you would of read half my posts I said I do them that way too...and things like "which one i choose depends on which result i want" & "in addition to the normal tech" and stuff like that...So apparently i need to post a pic of my results of the original tech to show i do it? How do you know mine don't look better then yours? If you were talking to Ahreno then you are even farther off because hes obviously trying(& doing a great job learning:))& If anyone needs to try something, i'd say your the one who needs to try "MY TECH" (that was facetious if you couldn't tell) Its pretty weird to sit and say that someone needs to do something a certain way when there's more then one way to do something and you haven't even tried them all...or that when there is an easier way for a beginner to get a result they might like better they should not do it and sit and fuck around with the harder method until they get it instead of doing both. There's also the fact that you can get way diff results too that you cant with the original tech by modifying dot shape...which was the whole point of my original post, that it can yield entirely diff results that send the fume way farther out into the clear(which i didn't post a pic of yet because i've been busy w/xmas stuff) or similar practically the same results if desired...

And actually its not normal ISO because your not melting the stuff in at all that's drawn on (clear dots in this case but lines,dots,color, whatever & thus making the "Inside" "Out") into it from heating the inside or even outside for that matter (although similar & with the same start process though)...if anything its closer to encasing...

Thanks ISA247... & Thanks to everyone else that has PM'd, Repped & Ect saying Thank You...At least some people realize a bit who i truly am and that i would never steal/take credit for something i didn't do and all i really care about is helping people (which in this situation was from showing a tech that can get mainly the same results easier & yet entirely diff results from the same tech if desired also)

[Shattered Dreams]

heres some pics of one I made and put on a pipe, another that isn't as good turned into a marble.

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm137/tonyo4420/DSC_0490_zps3690abf0.jpg (http://s295.photobucket.com/user/tonyo4420/media/DSC_0490_zps3690abf0.jpg.html)

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm137/tonyo4420/DSC_0491_zps32f02bd9.jpg (http://s295.photobucket.com/user/tonyo4420/media/DSC_0491_zps32f02bd9.jpg.html)

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm137/tonyo4420/DSC_0489_zps8e526766.jpg (http://s295.photobucket.com/user/tonyo4420/media/DSC_0489_zps8e526766.jpg.html)

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm137/tonyo4420/DSC_0501_zps9522eda6.jpg (http://s295.photobucket.com/user/tonyo4420/media/DSC_0501_zps9522eda6.jpg.html)

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm137/tonyo4420/DSC_0493_zps13f32c36.jpg (http://s295.photobucket.com/user/tonyo4420/media/DSC_0493_zps13f32c36.jpg.html)

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm137/tonyo4420/DSC_0496_zpsa34b222f.jpg (http://s295.photobucket.com/user/tonyo4420/media/DSC_0496_zpsa34b222f.jpg.html)

[ahreno]

Heres a couple i did today. I dont think i'm quite getting the great effects that the others are, but I'm content for the third day of trying. This one was fumed, burnt off with oxy flame then fumed again. I know it's kind of wonky on the pipe but i wanted to do something with it and i had a piece of kandy apple in my scrap bin... new truck piece for me...

570595706057061

[ahreno]

here's a few more. The large marble next to my pipe has a honecomb in the middle... i then rolled it in multiple layers of different colored frit and will cut it in half... hopefully should be neat. my saw didn't seem to want to cut it

5706257063570645706557066

[Captain Glass]

I only fume once and then go to blast it off. I feel like fuming again after blasting allows what you just blasted away to be hit with a reducing flame, which I avoid at all costs. I'm not saying I'm right or that what I just typed is the only way to do it, but from my experiances once you allow what you've blasted away with an oxygenated flame to be touched with a reducing flame that's when you get those earth toned creamy colors and not the blues purples and reds.

[genentics]

I've been subscribed to this and the main honeycomb thread. Thank you for spurring discussion. You've inspired me to give fumed honeycomb another go when I get back home after xmas. You're doing the normal method now, and not Klaws? I am going to give both a shot now that I have some simax tubing (previously only had schotts BA).

[ahreno]

Yeah, I'm doing the original tech.
My method
1. Blow a bubble on a point
2. Punty up and remove bubble
3. Fume heavy with my gentec hand torch. As oxidizing flame as possible

4. Blast into the bubble an oxygen high flame.

5.Keeping an oxygen high flame and trying to avoid flame going into the bubble , marver down and attach to blow tube.

6. Condense and blow bubble thing.

7. Dot outside of bubble

8. Condense

9. Let cool till no glow then reheat. Should see the fumes turn a dark red, I think that's when its striking...

Repeat cool and reheat.

I still haven't really figured a good way to finish the honeycomb. If I try to round into a marble I usually trap air.


Sent from my SCH-R530U using Tapatalk

[genentics]

Thanks for the synopsis! For step 9, are you using a reducing flame, almost entirely propane? I think I remember reading that in the main honeycomb thread to strike the fume back.

[ahreno]

No, I haven't done it with a reducing flame. I'll have to try that

Sent from my SCH-R530U using Tapatalk

[Captain Glass]

I see what your doing now and it's exactly how it do them not. Although I fume on my phantom and not my hand torch, since I don't have one yet lol. But I don't use an oxygen rich flame when I'm originally fuming, I can't seem to fume heavy enough with an oxygen rich flame.

And I've never struck with a soot like reducing flame, I always thought you were supposed to get it back to a glowing temp as fast as you could and then cool it down as fast as you could.

[genentics]

Alright! I was probably wrong about striking it back with a reducing flame. I'd definitely listen to smokinsluu.

[ahreno]

yeah, i wasn't having the best luck with fuming on my phantom and i tried on my hand torch and it fumed to a mirror finish in about 10 seconds. If you ever have a spare $120 or whatever they are, i'd pick one up. I like the gentec from allstyles.

that was my understanding as well... you get the best crystal development when you go hot to cold to hot quickly.

[ahreno]

genetics, do you ever work in ukiah/willits area?

[genentics]

I haven't gone up to Ukiah! I've occasionally drive through Eureka. And I drive through grass Valley quite often. I live in the Sacramento area though. I've only been lampwork in since June when I started taking classes for solid work (pendants, marbles, and sculptures). Then finished setting up shop in my garage a couple months back when I started doing tubing work without any classes. I attempted a couple fumed honeycombs right after I got my home setup working. But I was too new to tubing. I think I'll have much better results now. I'd like to eventually visit artist in the area just so I can watch them work and pick up little nuances.

[KLAW]

When striking encased colors, fumes, ect...The flame chemistry doesn't matter(not heat...heat obviously does) The whole reason some people do a reducing flame while striking & do the put soot on it thing is because with growing the fume crystals(striking) its optimal heats where they start & stop growing is at like something around 750-800* for the low and 1150-1200*(or whatever the #s actually are...i have a write up on it somewhere i'll find later...point is...)that you want to go back and forth between to strike(how fast is optimal i have no clue)...The soot thing when in regards to striking is used because soot starts sticking at one of those numbers (lower? cant remember)...So that's how when flame striking some people like to do it cuz they know they are at the optimal temp to start going back up(or down if im remembering it backwards)....I'll find the crystal growth write up and post a link when i do..

When i had mentioned soot in that one post earlier, i was just saying that i have fumed before so reduced that it was all the way to as close to putting soot on it as i could get without actually doing it...which gave it that dark black color fume job(from looking through the back of the clear) easier, you know that sticks to it(not soot that goes away obviously way more instantly with a little heat)...& it was one of the best colored fume jobs I've ever gotten...Now however i need to clarify something, i would fume with a neutral(maybe slightly reducing flame first...there's a sweet spot where it darkens and adds to it each time you add more thats a semi reducing neutralish flame) then go back and darken it up with that more extreme reducing like i was just talking about after.... I have even then sealed it up directly after that and i have also hit it with an oxidized until just slightly yellow brown and got almost indistinguishable results....However i never really struck any of my combs after i got done condensing them so it might make a huge diff when doing that to bring it back out...

I've been real busy with xmas orders and now that im finished i will start messing with fume again and striking too...Since i have like 12 cases of clear Simax and hardly any color left and just spent every cent i got on an HVO unit im sure all the things i'll do for fun/furthering my learning between doing my main order/project for next year will be almost all clear and fume until i've payed my HVO off in full around October and have saved up to buy a variety of like 50lbs of more color rods...& then start selling raw Simax Clear Rod & Tube and NS,GA, Momka & a few other Misc TAGs & other Color Rods again through my business Galaxy Glass Worx (dont even ask right now, im closed for months until i can re-stock cuz of the HVO purchase)...

Genetics...
I'm in Redding if your ever going to be up in the area feel free to hit me up if you wanna chill & shoot the shit abt glass or melt some stuff...

[Captain Glass]

Yea Im Gunna hit up allstyles and get one of those gentechs. I've got a couple things I'm going to experiment with tomorrow and try to refine some stuff. I'd post a pic of the ones I made the other day but I haven't figured out how to post them straight from my iPhone without putting them on my computer first and then transferring. The pics are in my Instagram though.

[genentics]

Klaw, I'll definitely hit you up when I'm up there next. Got a few bros living in Redding. I appreciate you posting your tech and will definitely give it a shot.

[BORO]

I would like to correct some miss info imo . You are trying to grow crystals . The crystals form at a precise temp . ( I think it was under 900? don't quote me on that ) They Grow at precise temp.( 1250? ) After you get the original crystals to form , these small crystals are the "seed" crystals . They give the silver a place to bond to , and coat the original crystal , growing it bigger .

When you heat and cool the glass as fast as you can , you will fly past the "optimal" range of temp that the crystals need to form/grow . Everyone who makes nice combs ,flame struck ,say the same thing . When striking , keep it in the very back of the flame , slowly bringing it up to temp/glow. This is why I don't dunk mine in water . YMMV and what works for you .....yada yada .

Ahreno : After I saw your pictures I knew what was up . You are making really small combs . It is much harder to get a nice comb on a tiny bubble. You have done as well as I ever could with such a small piece . If you try to make a bigger one , starting with a bubble that is twice or three times as large to start , ( with more dots ) you will be pumped when you see what you can do . Most if not all the combs posted are 1" marbles finished or larger .

I always back my combs with glass , filling in the hollow dimple . After I remove the hollow handle , and punty to the front . I just heat the end of a rod till ti looks like it will fill the hole . When I fill , I make shure

#1 that the hole (that is the back of the comb) has a round bottom , not a point under the tip of the comb . So the rod can reach all the surface of the comb back .

#2 Think of the hot rod that is the fill glass as " lava " . This lava wants to flow into the hole and fill it . If you drop the lava into the hole , you trap air . Now if you let the "lava" flow into the hole like it would in real life ,you chase out the air . Start on one side of the hole to be filled , push the rod down the one wall , then "flow" it across the bottom ,and up the far side to the rim. (This should chase all the air out ) Heat only the rod , and push to fill what ever space is left. I usually melt off the rod , and marver the lip of the comb closed/ clean up the back . Hopefully you trapped no /as little air as you can .

If you do trap air behind the comb , don't worry as long as it is not too big a pocket . The glass will be more st

[BORO]

I would like to correct some miss info imo . You are trying to grow crystals . The crystals form at a precise temp . ( I think it was under 900? don't quote me on that ) They Grow at precise temp.( 1250? ) After you get the original crystals to form , these small crystals are the "seed" crystals . They give the silver a place to bond to , and coat the original crystal , growing it bigger .

When you heat and cool the glass as fast as you can , you will fly past the "optimal" range of temp that the crystals need to form/grow . Everyone who makes nice combs ,flame struck ,say the same thing ." When striking , keep it in the very back of the flame , slowly bringing it up to temp/glow." This is why I don't dunk mine in water . YMMV and what works for you .....yada yada .

I always back my combs with glass , filling in the hollow dimple . After I remove the hollow handle , and punty to the front . I just heat the end of a rod till ti looks like it will fill the hole . When I fill , I make sure......................

#1 That the hole (that is the back of the comb) has a round bottom , not a point under the tip of the comb . So the rod can reach all the surface of the comb back .

#2 Think of the hot rod that is the fill glass as " lava " . This lava wants to flow into the hole and fill it . If you drop the lava into the hole , you trap air . Now if you let the "lava" flow into the hole like it would in real life ,you chase out the air . Start on one side of the hole to be filled , push the rod down the one wall , then "flow" it across the bottom ,and up the far side to the rim. (This should chase all the air out ) Heat only the rod , and push to fill what ever space is left. I usually melt off the rod , and marver the lip of the comb closed/ clean up the back . Hopefully you trapped no /as little air as you can .

If you do trap air behind the comb , don't worry as long as it is not too big a pocket . The glass will be more stressed with the air pocket when first made . The pocket will be a odd shape , and prone to cracking your work . To fix this , you need to heat up the glass till the air pocket becomes a round bubble . This bubble will be less likely to bring you problems later . Its like a egg , the round bubble will be stronger. It will be harder for the glass to start a crack from this round surface . ( compared to a weird air pocket with sharp edges .) This goes for any air pocket you can not remove from your work .

Ahreno : After I saw your pictures I knew what was up . You are making really small combs . It is much harder to get a nice comb on a tiny bubble. You have done as well as I ever could with such a small piece . If you try to make a bigger one , starting with a bubble that is twice or three times as large to start , ( with more dots ) you will be pumped when you see what you can do . Most if not all the combs posted are 1" marbles finished or larger .

[ahreno]

good info there boro. thanks for explaing the crystals and their growth. I had an idea what was going on, pieced together from a few other threads...

yeah, i've been realizing that i've been making small honeycombs. ive only been doing dots to about half of the bubble, i've started doing more now though. Not sure i want to go 2-3x larger on my original bubble as that would probably be close to softball size... most of these have been about the size of a tennis ball... i just haven't put that many dots on them.

Is this fuming/striking technique useful in any other techs or just honeycombs? i know most of the other silver fuming techniques say less is more. is this the way the horns are made with the fumed "strands" running through them?

[Captain Glass]

Boro thank you for the info I will try out the flame striking method posted above and post done pics.

I'm still kind of confused on filling in the hole to make a marble. I get what you mean about making sure the hollow part inside should be more round like a U instead of pointy like a V, but not so much about the filling it in.

[KLAW]

I would like to correct some miss info imo . You are trying to grow crystals . The crystals form at a precise temp . ( I think it was under 900? don't quote me on that ) They Grow at precise temp.( 1250? ) After you get the original crystals to form , these small crystals are the "seed" crystals . They give the silver a place to bond to , and coat the original crystal , growing it bigger .

When you heat and cool the glass as fast as you can , you will fly past the "optimal" range of temp that the crystals need to form/grow . Everyone who makes nice combs ,flame struck ,say the same thing ." When striking , keep it in the very back of the flame , slowly bringing it up to temp/glow." This is why I don't dunk mine in water . YMMV and what works for you .....yada yada

Thanks Boro... That's exactly what I had meant about growing the crystals and like I said couldn't remember the exact numbers which is why I had to estimate such a big range since I couldnt remember then...So yeah thanks for the closer 900* estimate on the heat for me, I'll have to give that number a go... Oh and thanks for the answer to the speed of heating/cooling too, makes since to not go to far to fast and risk passing the optimal...

Maybe you or someone else can help me out with another question...So yeah...With something like these combs or marbles or something thick with the fumed/area being striked encased and all, do you want that heat number or like even the glows and what nots temps gone by the inside or outside?.. Like I mean if flame striking and I wanted to try out and use one of those laser temp guns should I go a little lower/higher since its just going to prob just measure that outer "skin's" temp and not the inner area that your striking & it being hotter/cooler then what that skin temp would read you know...(wouldn't it right?)

Thanks Everyone ...Can't wait to get back to playing with fume and messing with striking again now that I'm done with Xmas & between orders again...

[jr23]

Why not teach the basic tech then. Why use a crutch.

The only thing difficult about it is learning to fume and strike.

Learning proper flame chemistry , fume density, and amounts of clear.

Steering someone to compress I so dots is not helping them with the tech.

Its showing them a alternative that looks similar only in some applications.

A much easer way is to learn how to correctly apply and strike fume.
Then learn to blow a thin bubble and apply dots.

Why not walk before you run. Why not have him do a solid color comb and learn why its not really the dots melting together that are the prob.

If bubble is thin the dots allow the non dotted area to draw up trapping more fume or color in these areas.

I can do a color comb and let the dots touch when condensing and still get the pattern.

Not trying to be a dick but teaching someone iso dots instead of teaching them a industry standard tech seems odd

[jr23]

Yeah, I'm doing the original tech.
My method
1. Blow a bubble on a point
2. Punty up and remove bubble
3. Fume heavy with my gentec hand torch. As oxidizing flame as possible

4. Blast into the bubble an oxygen high flame.

5.Keeping an oxygen high flame and trying to avoid flame going into the bubble , marver down and attach to blow tube.

6. Condense and blow bubble thing.

7. Dot outside of bubble

8. Condense

9. Let cool till no glow then reheat. Should see the fumes turn a dark red, I think that's when its striking...

Repeat cool and reheat.

I still haven't really figured a good way to finish the honeycomb. If I try to round into a marble I usually trap air.


Sent from my SCH-R530U using Tapatalk

So are they turning out for you.

I find using the soot method a great way to flame strike combs. Let cool until your propane flame leaves the black soot on piece. Turn oxy up and put piece in back of flame is gone. Bring to a soft glow let cool until the glow is gone.

The soot sticks at lower temp range and burns off at close to the upper heat range you are looking for.

Its a great help when learning to flame strike inside fume.

[BORO]

Common sense . If you just heated a mass of glass , the out side is hotter than the inside , at first . After a few seconds . the out side has a cold skin , the inside will be the hot spot . It takes longer for the heat to make it to the center of a mass of glass than you may think . It takes a long time for the inside to "glow" bright like the out side . Takes a long time for the kiln to bring something thick back up to a even temp .

I have a lazer temp reader.......It is not much help with hot glass . It is nice to insure your kiln runs correct . no cold spots by the door . Makes sure the surface of your glass in the kiln, is back up to temp. Mine was 20$ on amazon , I just don't trust it. ( It did work good fixing a few ps3's )

The temp of your comb........... J-how said some where , if you hold your comb under your bench , or in a dark place , it is under the 900 mark when you can see no glow anywhere , in the dark .( now you know you were in the range you need )

The 1250 mark is easy ....... a nice even orange glow .... about 1250 . You will hit the 1250 mark on your way up , in the flame . Just heat it slow in the rear of the flame ,to try to maximize the time you are in the correct zone . (Ever run your kiln at 1250 ? One way to see what glass looks like at that temp.)

The other thing that can help you find the temp of your glass( yes this is old news to a lot of us ) ....... If the glass will hold soot from a propane flame ...... it is under 1000 degs .(or was it 900? ) This can help you out when........ you have something that has become too cold to put in a hot flame . So you put it in a propane flame . It will become sooty and black . keep flashing/ rolling/heating in the propane flame . The soot will start to burn off the glass . (when it is back up over 1000 ) The soot is all gone.......Now it is back up to a safe temp to work full heat.

The soot trick can speed up your work . It is not as safe as a soak in the kiln.

[KLAW]

Why not teach the basic tech then. Why use a crutch.

The only thing difficult about it is learning to fume and strike.

Learning proper flame chemistry , fume density, and amounts of clear.

Steering someone to compress I so dots is not helping them with the tech.

Its showing them a alternative that looks similar only in some applications.

A much easer way is to learn how to correctly apply and strike fume.
Then learn to blow a thin bubble and apply dots.

Why not walk before you run. Why not have him do a solid color comb and learn why its not really the dots melting together that are the prob.

If bubble is thin the dots allow the non dotted area to draw up trapping more fume or color in these areas.

I can do a color comb and let the dots touch when condensing and still get the pattern.

Not trying to be a dick but teaching someone iso dots instead of teaching them a industry standard tech seems odd

I've helped with the regular tech too...& its not men't to be a replacement for the original because it gives different results that are not achievable with the other...I don't see any harm in showing a tech to someone that can give them a different result that they might like also, just because if is done a certain way it can give similar almost indistinguishable results to people that don't know what the subtle differences are(especially while saying its not a replacement & is best for diff results & talking about how to do the original the OP was inquiring about too)...

Also if someone did want to do it the way that does gives similar results with tall dots like i showed over the "industry standard", who is anyone to say they shouldn't and that they should do things any certain way because its done more often/came first...(especially when it gives diff results they may like better)individuality should be encouraged not shunned in this field of Art...I never said "do it this way" or discouraged the other or anything like that ...& i dont know if i agree that its true "ISO" out either since you cant do it by melting in whats drawn on into the tube in anyway, its more condensing until encasement...you cant to it on a tube section keeping it still a tube, it has to be at the end of a tube/end up as a mostly solid...Its condensed until the still solid dots have moved together until they sandwich the fume between each other and are then left encased solidly in clear...



Common sense . If you just heated a mass of glass , the out side is hotter than the inside , at first . After a few seconds . the out side has a cold skin , the inside will be the hot spot . It takes longer for the heat to make it to the center of a mass of glass than you may think . It takes a long time for the inside to "glow" bright like the out side . Takes a long time for the kiln to bring something thick back up to a even temp .

I have a lazer temp reader.......It is not much help with hot glass . It is nice to insure your kiln runs correct . no cold spots by the door . Makes sure the surface of your glass in the kiln, is back up to temp. Mine was 20$ on amazon , I just don't trust it. ( It did work good fixing a few ps3's )

The temp of your comb........... J-how said some where , if you hold your comb under your bench , or in a dark place , it is under the 900 mark when you can see no glow anywhere , in the dark .( now you know you were in the range you need )

The 1250 mark is easy ....... a nice even orange glow .... about 1250 . You will hit the 1250 mark on your way up , in the flame . Just heat it slow in the rear of the flame ,to try to maximize the time you are in the correct zone . (Ever run your kiln at 1250 ? One way to see what glass looks like at that temp.)

The other thing that can help you find the temp of your glass( yes this is old news to a lot of us ) ....... If the glass will hold soot from a propane flame ...... it is under 1000 degs .(or was it 900? ) This can help you out when........ you have something that has become too cold to put in a hot flame . So you put it in a propane flame . It will become sooty and black . keep flashing/ rolling/heating in the propane flame . The soot will start to burn off the glass . (when it is back up over 1000 ) The soot is all gone.......Now it is back up to a safe temp to work full heat.

The soot trick can speed up your work . It is not as safe as a soak in the kiln.

Thanks BoRo... That's what i figured about those heat guns that they would really only read the outside temp pretty much & thanks for the heads up that they aren't much help in that application... Also thanks for the glow tips and all the other general striking tips and stuff, that one about looking at the glass when in the kiln at temp sounds like a great one, i'll for sure be giving it and the others a go here soon :) I appreciate all the help...I've been doing a lot of stuff that requires wysiwyg colors lately unfortunately and havn't had the chance to do much stuff that can be struck in awhile and im sure it all will help me a ton as i get a chance to get back into more of it...