Bethlehem Champion Bench Burner

[GlassBBQ]

ORIGINALLY POSTED THIS REVIEW ON REDDIT.COM/R/LAMPWORK

Well I got an upgrade that has pushed me to a new level in lampworking.

I am coming to the Champion from the Nortel Red Max with a Premix top.

First Hands On Experience
This torch is big. The Red Max is about half the size.

The heavy base with rubber feet keeps the torch in place. Didn't even need to worry about c-clamping the torch down the the table. Even with the extra hosing pulling down with the foot pedal down below.

Rack and pinion! This thing is smooooooth and tight! Turn the knob with ease and it stays in place. You cannot move the torch up and down without turning the knob.

The Flame
This is my first all surface mix torch. Coming from the screaming banshee premix top, this sweet, soft whisper in my ear is wonderful. I can turn down the music and hear someone beside me while I work.

The Champion is a low pressure torch. 5 psi fuel and 20 psi oxy per Bethlehem's recommendations.

The center flame is 6 ports and is hot! I am using a Rock It Foot Pedal with oxy bypass. This allows oxygen to flow on the outside. This give your center flame more oxygen, giving you a little bit more flame dynamics and a better oxidizing flame. An oxidizing flame is friendlier to most colors. The oxy bypass also provides extra face protection the outer fire of the torch.

The outer flame is great! Super hot and there is just something about it. It heats up so evenly all around the glass is almost seems unreal. This is something that seemed to be missing from the Red Max.

I have not compared this to a Mirage yet, but with my experience on a Lynx, the flame is easier to dial in. Very easy learning curve with just the dual mix compared to GTT triple mix. Going to have a few people over soon who use a GTT to try the Champion to see how it compares.

Other Thoughts
I got a Griffin L Marver (same one for the Bravo fits the Champion). Works well, but blocks the outer fire knobs just a little bit.

Cleaning tools included with the torch are great. Wire cleaners, copper brush, and a stick to 'tap' the carbon out. A big step up from Nortel's one wire port cleaner and little to no instructions on upkeep.

It's beautiful. A big step away from the old Bethlehem torches with brass and water cooling. Looks more like GTT style now. Stays cool from about 2" down from the face of the torch. All stainless steel body.

Valves are something to get use to from the Red Max. These are needle point valves and they are sensitive, which has been my biggest learning curve.

My 2 cent

This is an awesome, well made torch and it's readily available! This is a great alternative to the GTT Phantom or Mirage which have long wait lists for a new torch. Also I feel Bethlehem's customer and torch service are superior to GTT's. Bethlehem has it so they will rent you a Bravo while your torch is being serviced, and the service is done quickly. I have heard stories of months waiting on repairs from GTT. I can't imagine being without a torch for a few weeks.

Bethlehem also has a lifetime warranty on their torches. You can find it HERE (http://www.bethlehemburners.com/services#.UsBsifRDtB4)

PICTURES OF TORCH IN ACTION AND BESIDE THE RED MAX (http://imgur.com/a/x06HC)

[PyroChixRock]

Thanks for the well thought out review. Repped!

[jusbag]

I'd still recommend clamping it down. Sometimes a piece of clothing can get caught on a knob, then it's a torch in the lap experience :-)

[GlassBBQ]

Better safe than burned crotch! :)

[Kool]

Unless you're into that kind of thing.

[cheesebox]

or burnt dog, guaranteed the dog isnt into that thing

[Jar-Jar]

Nice review I was thinking of upgrading from my red max to phantom some time this year but I think I will go with the champion

[Flowlo]

Hey mrjustin good job on the review, have you compared with mirage yet ?

[GlassBBQ]

Hey mrjustin good job on the review, have you compared with mirage yet ? Getting Joe on it this week, he use to own one, now runs a Lynx. I'll let you know his thoughts soon.

[hammer]

I just ordered a Champion. I can't afford the foot pedal yet.


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[GlassBBQ]

^ Make sure you have/buy y-connects

[hammer]

^ Make sure you have/buy y-connects

Thanks,
I bought those as well.


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[GlassBBQ]

Just got my friend Joe over to try out the Champion and he was surprised with how versatile it is. He dialed in small flames and was blown by how hot the outer flame is. All in all he said it was an easy contender for Mirage. Biggest difference between the two flames seems to be GTT is a laser and Bethlehem is softer, but both equally hot.

I'll try to get some more input from a long time vet of GTT, Matt with Blue Lily soon.

[hammer]

I'm trying to design my own bench mount stand for use on the lathe. Any ideas on how to do this without welds? I know you can buy them from Martin Glassworks but I'm determined to build my own.


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[GlassBBQ]

Here is harryl90's Champion mount for his lathe. http://www.talkglass.com/forum/showthread.php?51743-My-Lathe&p=777920#post777920

[aREa541]

Here's how I did mine. Just used a pair of metal drawer glides that I attached to a lazy susan. I screwed the glides down at the stop point I wanted for pulling the torch out. Total cost was about $25.

Things I would change: I would mount the glides upside down, or put some sort of metal sheath over it so glass didn't get in the tracks. I wrapped wood in aluminum for the two plates on the lazy susan and the pieces under the rails. I might change that to flat metal bar and plate at some point, but the current setup has worked great so far.

59995

[somewhere]

Here's how I did mine. Just used a pair of metal drawer glides that I attached to a lazy susan. I screwed the glides down at the stop point I wanted for pulling the torch out. Total cost was about $25. Things I would change: I would mount the glides upside down, or put some sort of metal sheath over it so glass didn't get in the tracks. I wrapped wood in aluminum for the two plates on the lazy susan and the pieces under the rails. I might change that to flat metal bar and plate at some point, but the current setup has worked great so far. <img src="http://www.talkglass.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=59995"/>

Great ideas.

I would like to see a couple set screws to quickly lock it down in position but over all that's some fine engineering.

[jr23]

I also seen two brand new champions for 1399 buy it know on eBay.

Sucks if you just ordered one for 1600 from beth.

Because a glass supply house ran a sale buy a 1600 dollar torch and get a 300 dollar store credit.


Which makes me think the dealer price break is pretty big.

Gtt does not leave that much on the bone for the dealers

[aREa541]

Great ideas.

I would like to see a couple set screws to quickly lock it down in position but over all that's some fine engineering.

Thanks Sky, after getting the lathe I realized I probably need to spend at least the same amount again to get all the peripherals I want. So, in comes things like this to get me running and save me cash that can be put towards another tool.

I was thinking something to lock it in place would be greatwould be great but kinda drew a blank on a good solution. It's funny how something as simple as a set screw eluded me, that should work great.


I also seen two brand new champions for 1399 buy it know on eBay.

Sucks if you just ordered one for 1600 from beth.

Because a glass supply house ran a sale buy a 1600 dollar torch and get a 300 dollar store credit.


Which makes me think the dealer price break is pretty big.

Gtt does not leave that much on the bone for the dealers

True, but GTT'S are so liquid that stores would rarely have to offer sales to move stock it seems.

As far as the Champion, I would love to hear from someone who has used both the Champ and a PM2D for a good amount of time - especially if they have used a PM2D with the unnecessary fuel ports intentionally blocked which cleans up the flame considerably.

I enjoyed the PM2D I had for awhile, but in the end I felt the sloppy centerfire and lack of a penetrating flame really didn't make the torch as versatile as I need for the way I work.

I did love the way it wrapped around and bathed the glass though, you would have to be having a seizure to not heat the glass evenly.

[hammer]

I also seen two brand new champions for 1399 buy it know on eBay.

Sucks if you just ordered one for 1600 from beth.

Because a glass supply house ran a sale buy a 1600 dollar torch and get a 300 dollar store credit.


Which makes me think the dealer price break is pretty big.

Gtt does not leave that much on the bone for the dealers

I offered that guy 1000.00 for my new Champion and shockingly he accepted. I think he has two more.



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[jr23]

Nice. That's the way you do it.

That torch at that price is a steal .

But the fact remains that the center fire is the same as the pm2d and that's why I run a gtt.

The range of the center on beths does not compare to the lynx.

I am with styles on all his opinions of beth great outer fire , center fire lacking

[hammer]

Nice. That's the way you do it.

That torch at that price is a steal .

But the fact remains that the center fire is the same as the pm2d and that's why I run a gtt.

The range of the center on beths does not compare to the lynx.

I am with styles on all his opinions of beth great outer fire , center fire lacking


Yeah my wish list includes a Phantom and both the Yellow Jacket and Lynx hand torch. I just always make low ball offers on Ebay. This is the first one that I've actually won. And I do collect torches.

UPS man just dropped off the torch. The base is much bigger than I thought. Time to build a stand.


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[Chubbles]

I've been rocking the Champion for a few days now. I am pretty impressed. It's true that the centerfire can't do what the lynx does, but the soft flame gives me a lot more control with smaller flames. I feel like the lynx's "laser" flame cooks the shit out of everything. The outer fire is beautiful. Big, soft, really awesome. Fuming has been better than on GTT. The soft flame lets the fumes come off the silver and gold at a slow pace. With GTT it can only shit out a bunch of silver or gold really fast. I am running at 2psi gas 20 oxy and I cant imagine needing to turn up the pressure. Is it better than a mirage? Probably not. It's way better than a phantom though. I have run GTT for 7 years straight. It took me about a day to get comfy on it.

[Captain Glass]

Well we will see tomorrow if its better than a phantom. I'm excited to come up and try this thing out.

[hammer]

Well we will see tomorrow if its better than a phantom. I'm excited to come up and try this thing out.

I think everyone has there own preferences. What blows me away about the Champion is how it's built. It's so impressive I hate to fire it up. This thing is a little tank.


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[dustyg]

I offered that guy 1000.00 for my new Champion and shockingly he accepted. I think he has two more.


I think you got a stolen torch.

Here's a quote from a post on LampworkEtc (http://lampworketc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=263320)

WATCH OUT!!!! DO NOT BUY!!!!!
SOMEBODY out there is purchasing Bethlehem Torches from distributor's websites with FRAUDULENT Credit Card Numbers.

They are then selling them on eBay, and will then ask for chargebacks on their purchases... So they will get paid twice…..once on their refund from their credit card company, and again when they sell the stolen merchandise on eBay!

DO NOT SUPPORT SUCH SCHEMES. It will destabilize the torch market, and encourage unscrupulous scammers to profit off ignorance in our industry. PLEASE SPREAD THE WORD!!!

I shipped 2 Beth Champions last week, and was thrilled to do so. Now it will be a huge mess, although at least I instructed the UPS not to deliver and to return the torches. But it will cost me financially……

Received another order for a Champion today. Checked it out and it was a fraud. So far my scams have come out of the unlikely location of QUEBEC, CANADA

Wale Apparatus has had a similar experience in the past week or so, and Bethlehem has also had one.

So, KNOW who you buy from, WATCH OUT for scammers, and DO NOT BUY STOLEN MERCHANDISE!!!!!!

[daveabr]

Yep, several dealers, including us have received fake orders using fraudulent cards, all from Quebec, CAN. They are ordering off of several supplier sites, charging them back, and reselling them on EBay. So, like the quote above states, they are getting paid twice. Luckily, we caught all of the shady orders. These Ebay torches are certainly stolen.

[GlassBBQ]

They hit MGA with 2 orders. We checked up on them when they were placed. Those orders seemed so out of place. It's weird they hit so many companies for the same product all around the same time. Don't they know you don't mess with the lampwork brotherhood?

[LowTideGlass]

So Hammer,

What's the deal with the champion you got off eBay? Did the deal go through? Was it stolen?

Just curious.

[hammer]

Received the torch. I sent EBay AND PayPal an email expressing my concerns. No response. That was two weeks ago. I really don't want it now but we'll see what happens.


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[GlassRot8]

This is my first post on this forum, so first of all a bit about my self. I'm trained as a scientific glassblower...dare I say it...over 40 years ago!!! Still behind the flame. I'm much closer to the South Pole than the North Pole.

I came across this forum while searching for ideas on lathe mounts for a newly acquired Champion torch to replace an old PM2D on a 6 1/2" Heathway What a nice torch to use, nice even heating especially good for tubing bends, even in quartz.
The burner had a card from Bethlehem tied to it saying, quote, "CAUTION!! Do NOT remove Champion Burner from base - doing so Will void warranty" I either have to change my plans or take the risk, did anyone else have the same note?
I'm a bit surprised at this, I may email Kate Hayes at Bethlehem a question about this.

I also purchased an Alpha torch for a particular mass production job on a smaller Litton lathe.

"Growing Old Is Compulsory, Growing Up Is Optional"

[JBob]

This is my first post on this forum, so first of all a bit about my self. I'm trained as a scientific glassblower...dare I say it...over 40 years ago!!! Still behind the flame. I'm much closer to the South Pole than the North Pole.

I came across this forum while searching for ideas on lathe mounts for a newly acquired Champion torch to replace an old PM2D on a 6 1/2" Heathway What a nice torch to use, nice even heating especially good for tubing bends, even in quartz.
The burner had a card from Bethlehem tied to it saying, quote, "CAUTION!! Do NOT remove Champion Burner from base - doing so Will void warranty" I either have to change my plans or take the risk, did anyone else have the same note?
I'm a bit surprised at this, I may email Kate Hayes at Bethlehem a question about this.

I also purchased an Alpha torch for a particular mass production job on a smaller Litton lathe.

"Growing Old Is Compulsory, Growing Up Is Optional"

This issue was brought up in a other thread, someone called and posted Bethlehem said its not much of an issue, but I would call anyway and ask.

[Losiwells]

When Bethlehem said warranty will be void, they were referring to the silver colored ball bearing type swivel portion of the base. The black square part of the base with the rubber mounts, can be removed without fear of having your warranty voided. I have a Champion as well so I kinda read up on all of the Champion related threads.

[chillrelaxglass]

I used the champion its pretty nice. but for the cash id rather get a mirage. I felt like in order to get a needle flame from the center fire it had to be running pretty hard. I did like the ball bearing rack tho you could stand on the torch without it moving.

[mistahead]

yea i used one briefly..coming from only really ever using a gtt i found the knobs going the opposite way for me to frustrating to really get to know it well but i will say that that rack and pinion system is something i wish i had on my torch.

[chillrelaxglass]

yea i used one briefly..coming from only really ever using a gtt i found the knobs going the opposite way for me to frustrating to really get to know it well but i will say that that rack and pinion system is something i wish i had on my torch.

I forgot all about the knobs being bassackwards.

[FredLight]

I ran a friend's CHamp for a day while blowing glass at an amusement park. He brought it in and I swapped my Phantom off the bench to make room.

Thing is a friggin beast. Made a flame too big for my enclosure.

Oh, and it is physically large, it's like the size of a car jack stand. and the knobs, Oy, what a pain.

Nice big flame though.

[abysm]

Is the center fire the alpha or the the old pm2d center?

[GlassBBQ]

It's the alpha for the center fire.

[afroguy]

Recently got a champion and its pretty sweet but ive got a concern. The paperwork that came with it specifies not to use y connects and instead to use t connectors. Anyone know why and whether its acttually a big deal to use ys and thats what I have on hand.

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[hammer]

I'm using the Y connections on my Champion.


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[hglasswell]

me too... haven't had a problem

[cody]

Any body know if there's still a problem with stolen beths on ebay? Occasionally I see beth torches on there I want to pick up because the price is so good, but am always concerned about actually receiving it or getting something stolen.

[TCsGlassworks]

Thanks for this write up. been considering upgrading. was torn between a mirage or delta, and the champion. do you have yours hooked up to a foot pedal?

[hammer]

Thanks for this write up. been considering upgrading. was torn between a mirage or delta, and the champion. do you have yours hooked up to a foot pedal?

I'm also interested in a foot pedal for my Champion if anyone has any recommendations. I still cannot get over the outer fire of the Champion. Just remarkable.

[khan]

[QUOTE=hammer;795758]I'm using the Y connections on my Champion.


I have no idea why but it says in the instruction sheet that came with the Champion to not use Y connectors... it says specifically to use T connectors and not Y connectors...
Seems like about the same thing to me but i guess they have some reason for saying that.

Khan

[quix]

I use a champ with a foot pedal. Works awesome.

[hammer]

[QUOTE=hammer;795758]I'm using the Y connections on my Champion.


I have no idea why but it says in the instruction sheet that came with the Champion to not use Y connectors... it says specifically to use T connectors and not Y connectors...
Seems like about the same thing to me but i guess they have some reason for saying that.

Khan

The website says the T fittings allow better gas flow which is the opposite of what I would think.

[Losiwells]

The only reason that I can think of is that by using T connectors is that it would be a more turbulent flow vs. the Y connectors. Maybe that helps with the hvlp aspects of this torch. Or... Maybe Bethlehem just screwed up and got it backwards. They meant to say to only use Y connectors instead of T connectors. hahaha

[Hayes]

I'm not usually the guy to revive a thread, but I would love to hear from some of you who have been using your champion all this time on how it's been going for you! I'm on the list for a GTT Mirage but obviously keep getting the "end of the month" message from them with seemingly no end in sight. I've got an opportunity to get a Champion and am hesitant for the sole reason that I run a Carlisle CC right now and the powerful inner flame is a MUST for my work, even when it gets down to the size of a needle. I'm worried a champion would be a dissappointment coming from a CC and I know resell value on Bethlehem isn't the same as a GTT. With the Mirage I at least feel like if I don't like it I can resell it without any fuss. a Champion I'm not so sure. What do you guys think?

[BlairArtGlass]

My Bravo center fire gets down to the size of a needle, and does anything I need it to. It won't be needle point 2 feet away from the torch face like a lynx center fire, but it seems plenty big and accurate. My shop mate actually came over to my torch to melt a color rod yesterday since he couldn't get it to melt nice on his delta.....

[STROKER]

^^^ if your shop mate needed to borrow a champion because he couldnt get the delta to work is 100% user error.
I can't think of much my delta can't handle.
Oh yeah my apprentice has a champion that I have used and after he tried my gtt guess what list he's on.
The beth is a capable torch but it is not anywhere near as well rounded as a gtt with a lynx center.
Just my 2 cents.

[STROKER]

I just recently read it again and you said bravo not champion but I still hold firm on the part that a delta is capable of virtually any build big or small.

[BlairArtGlass]

I would never doubt that it was, I think the gtts are awesome torchs. I was simply saying Beths are pretty nice torchs for the price and no wait list :).