What ingredients in raw batch determine the different clears reactions to silver?

[D. dino i ninjah]

Ok so we are all well versed i the differences in fuming .. different types of CLear.. Simax .. Pyrex . Scott.. ect. There is an old post on this board .. where puffdanny .. says that calcium is the ingredient that was present in the batch in old pyrex vs. new pyrex the absence of calcium in the batch .. he says is the reason new pyrex sucks or something of that nature .. any way I found this chart ... 64841 as you can see calcuim is not an ingredient listed in any of the batch formulas. so I have recently began to question .. this theory .. I always just took it for fact .. because .. its on the forum and no one argues .. but .. any way ..
I sent PM's to people I thought might know the answer . and got no reply .. So I am asking the board .. Does anyone actually know .. what it is that is causing the variation in the fuming qualities of different clears .. ? The best I can figure is that potassium plays some role in it ..
Thanks

[misled youth]

Honestly have no idea sadly, will pay attention to this thread in hopes though.
+rep though as just tonight i was meaning to look up info on the refractivity :)

[twisteddman]

I have no Idea , and have always wondered what the difference was. I remember the day I used my last tube of corning :( You could do very beautiful inside fume work with it and get every color of the rainbow out of it. If I was to make the same thing now it would just be white and yellow

[brads]

Ok so we are all well versed i the differences in fuming .. different types of CLear.. Simax .. Pyrex . Scott.. ect. There is an old post on this board .. where puffdanny .. says that calcium is the ingredient that was present in the batch in old pyrex vs. new pyrex the absence of calcium in the batch .. he says is the reason new pyrex sucks or something of that nature .. any way I found this chart ... as you can see calcuim is not an ingredient listed in any of the batch formulas. so I have recently began to question .. this theory .. I always just took it for fact .. because .. its on the forum and no one argues ..

Don't believe everything you read on the internet...

Any calcium that may or may not be in in Pyrex isn't in there as an added ingredient. If it's in there at all it's as an impurity in one of the other batch materials, as are other things not on your list. And any slight - or even large - calcium impurity is very unlikely to affect how well the glass fumes. Some other possible impurities, such as iron, would be far more likely to have an effect.

But the difference may not even be in the chemicals in the glass. It may be in it's oxidation state. A more oxidized glass would tend not to show silver colors as well as one that was more reduced. If they are refining Pyrex differently than they used to, that could account for the change. The fuming difference may even be that there's little or no arsenic in it any more. Arsenic used to be used in refining boro, but has been greatly reduced or eliminated over the past 20 years due to environmental and health issues.

[taylorm]

I heard there is more arsenic in simax which causes it to give better blues, but don't take my word for it...

[menty666]

It's possible it's to due with the composition of the silica used kind of like the fusers will tell you that Italian terracotta will holdup better in a kiln than Mexican terracotta; it has to do with the clay composition.

I seem to recall the Kimble(?) folks crowing about the beautiful silica they were pulling out of NJ for their batch. Maybe it was subtly mixed/infused with crushed and pulverized seashells giving a calcium component. Given they weren't explicitly adding it to the batch, it wouldn't make the ingredient list.

The point is, that some of the batch components aren't exactly lab grade purity, so material source plays a part in it. To that end, there's a good chance you'll never actually find out what the "secret ingredient" might be because no one knows for sure.

They say the water (http://www.intellihub.com/disgusting-invisible-shrimp-discovered-nyc-tap-water/) is the reason that a NYC pizza tastes different than a California pizza with the same ingredients.

[D. dino i ninjah]

Trace elements in the ingredients ... Im sure plays its role in all glass .. But I am also sure that the trace elements that impart these caracteristics in the glass have been identified .. People somewhere know what they are I have been trying to research and find out about Boro Batching And Batch Formula's ... It is confusing as hell.. What Im really after here is .. What is in the glass that allows the metals (silver) to grow up into the glass. or what are the elements that are responsible .? How is this type of thing balanced chemically. ?

Brads thanks for your input man .. I had not thought about the actual furnace enviroment during creation totally sliped my mind. that the tanks the glass was pulled from would be a whole new set of variables .. I guess to that extent .. It could be even the refractories used in the tanks .. and the elements leaching into the batch in that way ..
sorry guys I just get really curious
Thanks again ..

Please if any one knows ... I would also like to know as well ..

[Mr.P0rn]

sorry it took me so long to respond here, but I think I know the answer to your question. The answer lies in the field of metallurgy. The first thing to understand is how exactly silver colors glass (which I am sure you know) If not, read the alchemists guide put out by GA, and there were some Northstar newsletters as well that covered it. Since I am too lazy to look it up at the moment, I'll do my best from memory. Essentially, glass is an amorphous solid, or matrix. I like to think of it like a giant pool of water. The silver acts as a nucleus from which crystal structures form. Those crystal structures at the molecular level form specific shapes that reflect light in a specific way, and this is how the different colors are seen by our eyes. The same basic process creates precious gemstones. In the case of gemstones, veins of metal such as gold or silver are associated with nearby veins of impurities, and those impurities form veins of gemstones, for instance, people search for gold to try to locate diamond veins. In this same sense, different impurities in the glass, metal, or environment will assumably change the fume. Kiln strike colors already have the nucleus formed. Other colors just have silver floating in the matrix. When you raise the temperature of the glass that has silver floating around in it, it causes them to separate and form the nuclei. The striking process in the kiln or the flame is essentially holding the proper temperature for your metal (silver) to grow a crystal structure from the nuclei. For the silver colors like AP that you can erase and re-strike, this works because you heat it to the point where the crystal structures are destroyed, but the nuclei stay, so you are just regrowing new structures to re-strike.

Ok...so on to your more specific question. In Metallurgy, those crystal structures are called Lattices. different metals have the ability to form different shaped lattice crystal structures based on their environment, IE, oxidizing, reducing, cooling down quickly from the temp that crystals grow at (water bucket trick?) vs cooling down slowly (Cheesenip's Flame Strike purple?) ect. I have an article from a Metallurgy book that might help explain how the lattices work, and anyone who messages me and asks can have a PDF copy. Essentially, the name of the game is to understand your metal (silver) and begin to understand how the way you work it affects the shape of the lattices formed, and thus, the colors that you get. Mixing gold and silver obviously gives a different range (this is just simply the impurity of gold at work, when discussing silver, but there are many other impurities that can change things)

Simax has a crystal inhibitor that makes crystals form more slowly. This just increases the windows that you have for each specific effect. I am not sure what the inhibitor is, and I know that you are directly asking what it is...but I thought having a good idea of what's going on at a molecular level might help answer what is happening with the fume and why.

[D. dino i ninjah]

thanks for your well though out and informative post about silver growth .. It does not really answer the basic question Im asking though although .. I think you are onto something about the enviroment (reducing oxidizing ect.) .. You are the second person I have herd say simax has a fume inhibitor ? I would like to know the source for that information? Just because it is the second time I have been told the same info .. but I have never seen the source it came from. please understand its not that I don't believe it . I just want to know more.. I also asked the question in color awareness on FB .. but I cant seem to figure out how to post a link.

[Mr.P0rn]

I suppose I don't know that to be a fact, it's just what I have always heard as well. I've never heard anyone say what the specific inhibitor is though.

I can attest to the fact that a fumed pendent that I have that displayed beautiful greens and blues (Schott Boro Artistic) does still continue to grow crystals over time, despite it not ever getting anywhere close to the proper temp (I carry it around like a good luck charm). I suspect that there is yet another variable that can affect crystal growth, as this one is still going. Has anyone ever seen Simax glass continue to grow outside of a kiln or flame?

[D. dino i ninjah]

I am thankfull for anyone that takes time to help provide me with insight into something .. I am asking questions about .. What Im after is here at this point is more of .. what do you guys Know . about this.. It does not seem like anyone aside from abe ? really knows much .. or at least it seems like the people who do .. are not really willing to talk about it .. as much as people thank about sharing information ... you will notice .. when you start asking questions about color manufacture .. or batching boro clear.. people either don't know or are unwilling to share.. Mr. Porn and Brad I think you both for taking the time to contribute your knowlege/thoughts on the subject .. that they of sharing is what will help us all come to a better understanding ..
thanks

[Joseph Mullan]

Schott lacks Germanium i think. which i remember reading why its different from other glasses. its kimble or schott. im leaning more toward schott.

[D. dino i ninjah]

https://archive.org/details/elementsglassan00kochgoog

so far I have looked over the above book ..

http://books.google.com/books/about/Glass_the_miracle_maker.html?id=DAhVAAAAMAAJ

and read this patent .. http://www.google.com/patents/US1449793
in the above patent it says that the triditional decolorizers for soda lime are not effective in the boro syestem and talks about alternatives .. I have been reading lots of other patents on borosilicate .. systems .. it would take a really long time to link them all .. but the above one will give you an idea of .. some of the information that is available in some of them . .as they discuss the previous problems .. and how their . Invention over comes the problems . but this is really sad that .. more people don't know more about this stuff .. I mean we all use it everyday .. and .. most of us couldn't batch our own boro.. to save our lives ..

[Abe Fleishman]

There is no germanium in any of the clears. I don't have time to write the knowledge we have about the reaction with silver and clear glasses right now. But the difference in clears is in the process and the amount of Al2o3 in the batch melt. All clear manufacture have to list all ingredients on there data sheet cause they are making glasses for the pharmaceutical industry. There are small trace elements that are present but do not effect the end result unless there is a very high iron content in the silica.

[D. dino i ninjah]

Abe thanks for .. sharing. I think you are the only person that can (or is willing ) to talk about this stuff. Just to make sure .. I understand .. And trying to piece togeather your post from here and facebook .. I believe you are saying the state that the glass is in .. reduction .. Neutral and oxidized as a result of its manufacture and the level of aluminum in the batch effects the way silver strikes ? I hope im getting it right .. Are there books or other materials one could read . ? to gain a further understanding .. I know most glass blowers don't give a fuck about this stuff .. but .. for me its really interesting .. or you could just further explain the process about what is going on .. in this instance .. when you get time .. It sorta sucks . Cuz im like really into learning things .. and Im hitting a brick wall with this stuff ..

One last question .. ? Is there an batch formula for boro like there is other things .. Like a proportion standard .. based off of data from the elements .. like there is in glaze calculation for ceramics ? for example so much of this (glass former) .. in relation to that (flux) .. =s this .. so we will need to add more of that (decolorizing agent) to = a number.. that will give us a glass that is 33 coe ? I don't know if you know what Im talking about .. but there is a formula for glazes .. so there has to be one for glass ?

sorry to ask questions .. but .. Im trying to learn .. and no one else knows or wants to teach . so .. even if you could just recomend some books to read or something that would be great.
since you took the time to reply .. I will share the most interesting patent .. I have found .. with you ..
that opal .. boro .. just a little on the soft side .. but I think you might find it interesting .. If you don't already know
http://glassian.org/Patent/1623301/page1.html

[Abe Fleishman]

There are no books that have this type of information. Borosilicate color is new and there has been not much research about what is really going on. We understand it cause we manufacture the color and use different clears based on our understanding. We have worked with all the clear manufactures to insure this type of clear and it has helped them and us to understand more.
Abe

[D. dino i ninjah]

I was kinda hoping for more information than that .. I feel like .. people are purposefully vague about this stuff... I mean its not like no one has ever put oxide in a tub of molten sand before. some of this is "new" but a lot of it is not that patent is from 1922 for instance and they were trying to make a boro that was easier to work (softer) and also stronger than triditional pyrex .. who the company was sued by due to similarities . between the products . . some of the specific chemicals react differently in a boro syestem .. but lots of it transfers over . from soft glass .. I was hoping that we could have a conversation about basic glass chemistry some time .. I would really like to understand it better .. as I imagine a lot of other glass workers would as well. It really cant hurt to have more minds that understand things . because people think differently and perhaps there is more to learn than just one or two or four or however many people there are .. that have an understanding of it .. Its like a microprocessor of human understanding .. the more people thinking about something the quicker problems are solved and over come .. So Abe when ever your ready to open those floodgates .. Let me know man .. I would like to learn some stuff..

[D. dino i ninjah]

fry foval art glass

https://www.google.com/search?q=fry+foval+art+glass&safe=off&espv=2&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=cfMAVMXXN4GlyATWnoGQBQ&ved=0CCgQsAQ&biw=1440&bih=809

look at the stuff .. is fucking great .. made in the usa .. boro .. slightly softer than pyrex. in 1922 people were experimenting there is no way . they didn't learn things some one knows how this stuff works .. or they could not formulate glass . and have colors that match coe's some where there has to be a mathmatical formula based off the atomic weight and moles maybe.? somethign like that ?

[Wilbur]

I was kinda hoping for more information than that .. I feel like .. people are purposefully vague about this stuff... I mean its not like no one has ever put oxide in a tub of molten sand before. some of this is "new" but a lot of it is not that patent is from 1922 for instance and they were trying to make a boro that was easier to work (softer) and also stronger than triditional pyrex .. who the company was sued by due to similarities . between the products . . some of the specific chemicals react differently in a boro syestem .. but lots of it transfers over . from soft glass .. I was hoping that we could have a conversation about basic glass chemistry some time .. I would really like to understand it better .. as I imagine a lot of other glass workers would as well. It really cant hurt to have more minds that understand things . because people think differently and perhaps there is more to learn than just one or two or four or however many people there are .. that have an understanding of it .. Its like a microprocessor of human understanding .. the more people thinking about something the quicker problems are solved and over come .. So Abe when ever your ready to open those floodgates .. Let me know man .. I would like to learn some stuff..

Do understand that acquiring all of this information and understanding came with lots of trial and error, consumption of resources, and is in fact very valuable.

In this day and age, the concept/idea of 'trade secrets' is often forgotten and often times replaced with a sense of entitlement.

Not saying you have malicious intent, but be concious that a lot of things that people openly discuss do have a certain amount of monetary value, and people's time alone is a precious thing. be thankful, and express that thanks, that the amount of information we have access to is available.

[D. dino i ninjah]

I am just different .. I think that by sharing information the collective knowledge base builds up .. and that effectively .. opens doors to new possibilities .. I try to push things along .. and often people think Im an ass .. I get that .. but really the more people that know how to batch boro clear and color the better the selection and results will become .. so I am all for sharing of the information .. I just love glass . Im not trying to put ABE or Paul out of buisness .. I just want to know whats going on .. so that a can better contorl the results in my own work .

[menty666]

[QUOTE=D. dino i ninjah;808579 but really the more people that know how to batch boro clear and color the better the selection and results will become[/QUOTE]


Yes and no. Yes, it's good to know some of the science behind what we do; in part to better the way we work the material, in part to keep the knowledge alive.

But if every Tom, Dick, and Sally were out there making small batches soon you'd also get them all trying to sell it. Yay, more color....except who's to say they did extensive compatibility testing or didn't mix in a pinch here and there of something that throws the COE way off or worse, makes it toxic? Boro's well known for being mostly inert and thermal shock resistant. That largely only holds true for clear. Folks love to mix up color. Why don't we all mix up color?

COE slide is a big reason, dangerous to handle chemicals is another. I'm not saying it can't be done safely, and new glass companies that want to spend the time and money to get it right do pop up once in a while. Individuals can mix up their own color too, but it's not always cost effective.

By and large we don't do it because it's simply more convenient to be a consumer of the raw material. Potters could dredge clay out of their backyard, but most still order it cleaned and without stones.

I applaud your inquisitiveness, I most sincerely do. But you might put it to good use trying to get a job at a manufacturer and learning right from them. Batching isn't brain surgery, if I recall there are instructions in the Halem book. But doing it consistently, and knowing how and when to tweak the mix to get the desired result...that's where the money is. Much like learning to do a decent weld, that comes from experience, not merely from intelligent discourse.

[misled youth]

Damn menty, another great post!

I would not mind knowing how it is done either.
But I can only imagine how many idiots would attempt it and cause issues.
Either selling junk
Making poison
Burning shit down
Killing themselves
Killing others

However i would give Abe a free week of my labor just to see everything being done and
Participate where i could

[brads]

If you really want to know about coloring boro, take a class with Suellen Fowler. While you're there ask her what she thinks of freely giving away color recipes/information. Then again, it might be better if you skip that last part.

[Mr.P0rn]

^^^This is probably the best advice you could get. During the webinar she just did with Glasscraft, she says she teaches a few times a year in New York, 3 day all intensive, and she shares her recipes and colors for a few hundred bucks. She couldn't remember how much it was, but she said approximately $300. She also says during the webinar that the library at Corning has a copy of the recipes that she gives our during her classes, and that you can request it there.

[BORO]

The 0.p. was " what" ingredient is in clear glass that effects fume?

Even if you knew the answer, how is it applicable to lamp work?

Why not "what" brand effects fume and how? at least you can put that into practice.

I can find lots of ingredients on this forum....like this "you will find that occasionally potassium is used in place of the sodium."
from this thread.... http://www.talkglass.com/forum/showthread.php?43472-Boro-Enamel-33-COE-enamel&highlight=boron

Unless you are batching glass... how can you use that info? (not to mention "I read it on the internet , it must be true." )

In the time you spent on this thread.. you could have found real factual papers , with references .....

If you are really serious about silver , and how it effects clear or vise versa...... The papers are out there. The tips and tricks page on facebook, has a file section , it has 2 good papers on a.p. color ... and how it's color is only sliver particles in the glass.

Even if you google " silver nano particles + borosilicate " you find lots to read.

This was posted by Henry Grimmet on the tips page on m.g.a.'s sight http://www.mountainglass.com/Tips-and-Tricks-Page-1.html

" The crystal growth process is a function of time and temperature, and can be controlled for the creation of the full spectrum of colors silver can produce. If the glass is subjected to high heat, the silver particles are freed from the glass matrix and move through the glass until subsequent cooling forces them back into the matrix causing the glass to look the same as before it was heated. (Note: Returning to its original rod color takes place in glass that contains only silver. Glasses such as the Amazon and Chameleon series, have nuclei present which allow silver particles to form crystals and prevent them from returning to their original state.) When the glass is cooled, not all of the silver particles make it back into the glass matrix. Upon subsequent heating these homeless silver bits act as nuclei, or places for larger, more stable silver crystals to grow. It is this heating, cooling and reheating process that enables larger crystal growth. The color reflected by the glass is a function of the size of these crystals varying from yellow (small crystals) though purple, blues and greens (large crystals)."

you want to know what that "nuclei" is I suspect ? Sounds like you can add something to make the crystals stay and grow. Not a additive that inhibits the growth.

but....

I.M.0. I just don't think its as simple as "X" ingredient is the determining factor. Think about it for a min. You get a giant range of colors and effects from the flame chemistry alone. You can make silver fume only piece with exactly the same ingredients, but they look totally different if reduced , or not ect.....but the ingredients did not change. I think a lot of the " I can't get this brand to fume" is miss understood. The silver is there , you just cant see it with your human eye till the crystals grow and reflect more light....

When a company batches glass...(again the ingredients may be the same but....) some may heat higher , or longer , or reduce the clear glass pre tube..... Many factors other than ingredients alone that make up the behavior of clear glass.. (not to mention all the variables when applying silver )

The more I read , the more I see Jesse Kohl's name referenced, and connected to real research. << that is where I would start.

This all took me less than a hour... and I did not link most of the info I found..... because I am not you. A.K.A. I don't know where you are coming from or where you need this info to take you.

[D. dino i ninjah]

http://depts.washington.edu/mti/1999/labs/glass_ceramics/mst_glass.html

[D. dino i ninjah]

Boro I already posted this patent once .. in this thread. Im going to post is again .. please read it .. and see if you can follow my logic that all of this may have more to do with the supended state of the allumina .. with in the batch .. ? I really don't know .. as I have said .. but this glass .. produces a result verry similar to the results we are getting with silver fume .. using cryolite (Na2AlF6 to hold the alumina in a suspended state . again .. I don't "know" that but I read it on the internet and guessed .. because .. no one wants to just come out and tell me what is going on .. could it be that this cryolite .. is in some way helping to keep the alumina out of solution .. and available for reaction with the silver ? Again I don't know this Im just asking questions ..

http://glassian.org/Patent/1623301/page2.html

[D. dino i ninjah]

http://books.google.com/books?id=SOlLoYcf3_UC&pg=PA100&lpg=PA100&dq=cryolite++glass+colorant&source=bl&ots=IFe6Brllir&sig=j7KoUEilIe-IL7yPuSNSXI6c4Lc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=7_8EVOSlFJPEggTY84DoAQ&ved=0CEgQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=cryolite%20%20glass%20colorant&f=false

[bowlpusher]

This has been a great thread outside of all the flaming. I am hella curious about the science of fuming. Thank you contributors, thank you moderators. Love you long time.

[Doctor Dee]

65127
65124
65125
65126

[brads]

Speaking of Alfred University, in case anyone is wondering where those quoted pages originated, they are out of the book, "Introduction to Glass Science and Technology (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0854046399/bradshuteswicked)" by J. E. Shelby. Dr. Shelby is now retired, but was a longtime Professor of Glass Science at Alfred U.

[Abe Fleishman]

Just to be clear there is no secret ingredient put into the clear glass. They have to be very upfront about the batch formula cause most of the clear goes to the pharma industry. The clear manufactures are also not making clear glass so it reacts different with colored glasses. They could care less about our industry. The volume that is being used in our industry is less than 5% of there production. Remember they are producing over 200,000lbs per day. most of the clear manufactures produce from 70,000,000-150,000,000lbs per year. just some info.
Abe

[D. dino i ninjah]

Abe so far .. my understanding about this comes mostly from you and old brads .. .. but What I gather is .. the glass that comes from different plants come in varring states of reduction/oxidation.. and those states in combination with the slight variation in Alumina in the glass batch. and some mystery trade secret process that we cant talk about .. ? are the reasons that silver grows differently in different clears ? This really is the best knowlege .. I have come up with . so far ?

[fruitpastel]

Gonna have a go chipping in here. I'm new so really haven't read deeply into lampworking and really haven't got a clue about silver fuming yet.

What I can say is the batching process, as performed by the manager of the furnace producing said glass is a stable but varying process. I don't know the specific chemical interacting with the silver fume here, ill admit I haven't got a clue. You will have trouble finding industry information on this ingredient, its held close to chest for a reason. Just trying to help out D.dino in understanding the silence on this subject, people really don't know because only a handful of people really know what batch was used in Aug 1997 of (insert name here) producers

If its making clear boro, this leads me towards some hazardous material used to de-colourise the glass, traditionally this has been cerium or arsenic, either way its not being used anymore in many producers so you'll be lucky to find it in too high a quantity.

Edit:

After reading the above info also I am pretty sure it is cadmium that is causing this effect. It's just not going to be used en masse anymore because of the pollutant factor. The glass industry has historically used all sorts of chemicals as they melt and offer benefits to the finished product. Seems like this push is effecting lamp-workers all over the lands!

I'm not offering many answers but i'm just trying to help people understand that the batch is no longer widely available: mostly for environmental reasons, so cherish what you have.

Seems like your after answers that only come with time and experience - the people with the answers don't seem to be here or I am sure they would share, everyones technique and a huge handful of variables will give you different effects. Seems like if you want to know something you need to try some different techniques with varying glasses and find what works for you?

Good luck man!

[menty666]

Dino, I think one thing you don't pick up on is that the only people that truly know the batch formulas for Kimble, Schott, Simax, Corning (limited these days), etc are the batch mixers at those companies. If you think they're going to spill any info on the mixes, you're nuts; it really is a matter of trade secrets. For example, the paperweight folks swear by the soft glass Schott pucks for optical clarity. Do you think anyone at Schott will tell some random person what the formula is? Of course not.

Like Brad said, even if you were to find out the "secret ingredient", then what? If you're fuming, use the fume friendly glass. If not, use whatever you found on sale last time you ordered. The pharma contracts are far larger than whatever the distributors are ordering; they won't listen to the lowly flameworkers.

It's nice to know as a mental exercise, but really in the long run, it's a minor detail that won't matter.

You mention no one knows how to batch glass. You're partly right. But most folks could figure it out. Like I mentioned earlier though, it boils down to doing it consistently and for a particular glass type within a certain COE range. Most folks don't give a poop on how it's done, they just order it as a raw material and make it pretty. If I really wanted to, I can look up a basic batch recipe, order the components, fire up a crucible and make some glass, but nailing the COE each time reliably is where the money is.

[PyroChixRock]

This has been a great thread outside of all the flaming. I am hella curious about the science of fuming. Thank you contributors, thank you moderators. Love you long time.

I attempted, again, so save this thread. Instead of deleting the flaming Dino seems to love so much, I copied over the informative posts into a new thread. The other thread is still around for now in case I missed anything someone wants copied over to this one, but will self destruct later.

Apologies to the members who wanted to read something informative and had their time wasted. Hopefully this helps.

[Jimi The Don]

Thanks misha, you're the breast!

[PyroChixRock]

Thanks, I think?! I never got to be the breast before! :lol

[brads]

This got missed in the transfer, which isn't terribly surprising since it was buried at the end of my epic rant. Not specific to boro, but to glass batching in general, "Henry T. Hellmers' Secret Batch Book of Glass Formulae (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0983703817/bradshuteswicked)", contains over 2000 batch recipes.

[PyroChixRock]

Cool brads, thanks for reposting it. :)

[D. dino i ninjah]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calculation_of_glass_properties

[D. dino i ninjah]

https://openlibrary.org/works/OL13383888W/Mathematical_approach_to_glass

[D. dino i ninjah]

http://www.sciglass.info/Publications/Priven.pdf

This one actually has full text .. not specific to boro though .. but good background info..

[D. dino i ninjah]

http://glassproperties.com/

[D. dino i ninjah]

http://www.mpi-halle.mpg.de/mpi/publi/pdf/9009_08.pdf

[D. dino i ninjah]

http://documents.irevues.inist.fr/bitstream/handle/2042/52884/p_E3UBIN5A.pdf?sequence=1

[D. dino i ninjah]

http://www.google.com/patents/US2035318

[D. dino i ninjah]

http://www.madehow.com/Volume-7/Pyrex.html

[D. dino i ninjah]

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4075024.html

[Draconis]

This question is best answered in terms of vapor deposition. Fuming is a dichroic coating on glass. The base glass chemistry is irrelevant. The more important factor is flame chemistry. A reducing atmosphere will produce yellow silver nitrate, whereas an oxidizing atmosphere will produce white silver oxide. This is only stuck to the surface, not mixed in with the base glass, so it really doesn't matter what the glass is made with. Once deposited, flame chemistry is still a factor, because you can still change the oxidation state of both silver or gold. Encasement immediately after deposition is usually the best way to get good results, however excessive heat can also cause the metals to incorporate with the glass, usually resulting in an oxide .

[brads]

http://www.sciglass.info/Publications/Priven.pdf

This one actually has full text .. not specific to boro though .. but good background info..

Good background info on what, exactly? Perhaps you'd explain it to us, since to state that it is "good background info" would obviously mean you've read the paper and you understand it. Otherwise how could you declare it good background info, right?

I anxiously await your synopsis of the good background info the paper contains, as well as its relevance to this thread. I won't hold my breath while I wait.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/synopsis?s=t

[D. dino i ninjah]

brad the article discusses the history of .. the calculation of batch properties .. and cites Voff .. as well as the factors by Appen .. if nothing else it provides a spring board to further studies .. I don't know that this method as its discussed would work for boro .. It seems like there are better methods . .but it does provide some background info . I would think you would agree .. about the calculation of glass properties ?

what I am doing is compiling information .. None of the links are "answers" to my question but dome of them do provide a better understanding .. I think . You see that is what Im about is helping people further their understanding .. Its kinda like brainstorming .. I just find as much info .. and read it as I can .. If you would like to help that cool .. other wise .. please don't ruin my theds any more ..

Thanks
and I love you ..

http://www.google.com/patents/US2035318

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4075024.html

[D. dino i ninjah]

http://glassproperties.com/phase-separation/

[tilman]

hi everyone. this post has got alot of information in it but the "original" question has really not been answered. i dont claim to know any of this for fact but it really does seem to make sense and the pictures tell the story as well. i beleive the difference in how the different clears react to fume and fume growth is the amount of boron in each of the companies clear tubing. ive been wondering the difference for a long time. why does simax have the best fume profiles. if anyone knows jello glass on facebook. look him up and ask him about his experiments. you can read about it all in here... https://www.facebook.com/groups/453188471397229/?fref=ts thats the glassblowing tips and tricks group over on facebook. in the post there. hes been treating sba with boron before fuming and coming out with some really beautiful fume profiles that are reminiscent if simax tubing.. again this is not my info but make more sense than the 3 pages of comments that were in this post. so get some sba and some borax and make yourself some beautiful fumework. or just by simax tubes..


and again im just passing along information and trying to help connect the dots