25k price tag on bead shop ventilation

[VinE]

There are some really rightous beaders up here who are about to get custied out i.m.o. they somehow got it in their mind they need to pay 25k to ventilate a couple stations. Theres got to be some "know it all expert" on here than can help me figure out how to help these ladies stay warm/safe and not waste money. They are working in the exact same building i was in a couple years ago. i know the landlord personally. There are no obstacles/rules/regulations coming from him or any sort of city marshall (we like to encourage industry in ak). So i know shes getting overcharged by the hvac sheetmetal guy or the ""hvac engineer" who probably knows alot about moving air , and little about ventilating a glass shop in Alaska. Doesnt look like it got any sort of special heat exchange system involved either, which would be a good idea if you wanted to save on heating and up the comfort factor. Hate to see money get wasted.

[Rojas]

I was quoted 10k by several hvac companies to ventilate 4 stations. This was in California. It is very expensive to install proper ventilation, but 25k sounds like a lot for 2 stations.

[Greymatter Glass]

25k is steep for 2 stations to be used for bead making.... there has to be more going on. I'm actually at my shop today waiting on an HVAC guy to shopw up to work up a proposal for my 6 station manifold exhaust system, I won't be surprised if the quote is in the $10-12k range. I think for 2 stations in a bead shop it should be in the $5000 range for a professional and appropriate system. But I'm no expert, just going on my own experience a few thousands miles south of you :)


So what are things that can add huge expense to a HVAC quote?

Things like a heated intake system will drive up cost like that for sure.

Stainless steel (don't need it) will run up prices quick.

Saying the word "welding" will tag untold thousands onto a vent system. Welding fumes require special treatment now days because of threats of toxic metal fumes - it will vary somewhat by state depending on local regulations.

Also, "engineering" is not cheap. I'm running into that problem at my shop - a lot of HVAC firms rely on income from their engineering department to subsidize the labor charges to make themselves seem more competitive than they are. Many HVAC shops will not just do a time and materials job, they will only work with their engineers.... if that's the case find someone else.

Permitting and testing of an exhaust system, if required, is also expensive. It could easily contribute $1000 to charges.

If you could get a copy of the proposal / quote it would be much easier to figure out where there are any overages in terms of design or pricing...

Really there's just so many variables it's almost impossible to say if that's a fair price without more details.

-Doug

[LooseSeal Baller]

you should make the hood, get the appropriate size fan, and then have someone quote you on running some ductwork. should be a few hundred dollars i'd imagine. Having a custom made hood, or having them try and figure out math is probably whats costing so much. Both are simple. Prices that high are for a new central heating and air conditioning install which is more work than a typical bench setup.

[Mike_Aurelius]

Wow. ^^and what Doug said.

Some communities require building permits with drawings, and engineering designs (for airflow and static pressure etc). That can easily add a couple of grand to the cost. No one is required to accept the first quotation. Find another company to submit a bid, then start comparing bids. Find out what the community requires. Sit down the building inspector and maybe the fire inspector and see what they are looking for. One problem, especially with California, is the requirement for earthquake proofing *everything*. That's going to add a chit-load of money to the cost.

Look for any "padding". Find out the specs on what fan they are planning on using (should be in the bid) and see if you can second or third source it for less money. You may have to pay an installation charge but if you can save yourself at least 30% on the cost, you will be dollars ahead. If building modifications are required (for example, punching through a wall or ceiling) this is also going to add to the costs. See if an existing hole, such as a window opening, can be used instead.

Those are just off the top of my head.

[VinE]

you should make the hood, get the appropriate size fan, and then have someone quote you on running some ductwork. should be a few hundred dollars i'd imagine. Having a custom made hood, or having them try and figure out math is probably whats costing so much. Both are simple. Prices that high are for a new central heating and air conditioning install which is more work than a typical bench setup.

I got a custom built 4 bench hood made up for 1k.(ive got freinds tho) I think they are shooting for four stations i believe. ill see f i can pry some more spec. out of my freinds.
its not in cali. they do need to put a hole in ...just like i did when i was renting the place two doors down from where they are now. The landlord had no problem punching the hole in then and even had his maintinence guy do the work for me as a stipulation before i signed the first rent check. I didnt have to get anything engineered or approval from inspectors other than the fire marshall who came in to check things out for insurance purpouses. This is simple math, a little bit of sheetmetal fab work on some hoods and some ducting, Not rocket science. I could literally build a rocket for 25k. it shouldnt cost that much for four bead stations imo.

[691175002]

I also ran into that issue when I tried to install a proper ventilation system for my studio.

In the end I ordered a pair of 860CFM kitchen hoods online and had a contractor install them. I don't remeber the exact cost, but the hoods were cheap, look great, and it was done in a few hours. Any contractor should be able to install a kitchen hood in their sleep. As soon as you want anything unusual the cost goes way up.

Winters get cold here so I followed Mike's advice:
http://mikeaurelius.wordpress.com/2008/01/03/through-the-bench-or-damn-its-cold-outside/

I haven't felt any need for a heat exchanger or any special make-up air considerations.

Incidentally, Mike Aurielus has a lot of good guides on the site.

[snoopdog6502]

They have to be working with stainless hoods like you would find over a commercial kitchen. Iv made stainless hoods 3 x 4 to go over as grill and I charged $2,000.00 each.

Rather then have an Hvac guy, direct them to the owner of a local welding shop who has a freaking clue and can kick the shit out of that price and still make money.

Real engineering is economics, the Alaskan location will factor in as materials are not as available as they would be in the lower 48 thus the inflated price.

$25,000.00 is more of a price geared towards a small 6-8 man saw mill with a cyclone bag house dust separator that blows the dust into a semi truck trailer. Ridiculous.

For a couple bead stations a couple big grow light hoods and some inline fans and ducting is more in order. $2-3 k would be way more than adequate including dedicated circuits wired in.

You could fly me to Alaska to make the complete system cheaper then that quote.

[Greymatter Glass]

For a couple bead stations a couple big grow light hoods and some inline fans and ducting is more in order

Is that you that posted those pics on facebook? That cracked me up...if it works, it works... tho they seem a bit small to really be "right".


For a frame of reference, below is the ventilation at my old shop. 2 hoods, one was 18x5' and 18" deep, the other was about 24x5' and 18" deep, it's open but flush to the wall on the back, closed on both ends.

Just the cost of materials and the sheet metal fabrication was around $7500 (fans, hardware, hoods, ducting, everything physical that I had to purchase or have made)
The electrical hookup was around $1000 (time and materials)
The roof penetration was $1000 (plus another $1000 to reseal it when we moved out)

So parts was under $10,000. (4 fans, ducting, plenum, hoods, hardware, electrical parts)

We installed it ourselves (less the rain hood and roof jack done by the roofers as part of the $1000 roof penetration job)

I figure that if I had it professionally installed that would have cost about another $2000-2500. It took 4 HVAC-inexperienced glass blowers about 80-90 man hours to install it all. An experienced team probably could have don it with about 40 man hours, at $50-60/hr. (it would have been worth it if my budget wasn't already exhausted)

Its a HUGE image, so just click the link to see the set up: http://www.greymatter.org/studio/ventilation.jpg

[dustyg]

Jeez, Doug, that's 20 times the workstation I've got. I got mine done for closer to $500 and 5 man-hours of mine and a buddy's work. I've outgrown it, for sure, but I think your battle station would be extreme overkill for a pair of bead makers.

[Greymatter Glass]

exactly.

If I could fit out a 6 station shop with a well designed system that worked very well most of the time, I can't believe you can't do a 4 station set up for less.

[VinE]

Jeez, Doug, that's 20 times the workstation I've got. I got mine done for closer to $500 and 5 man-hours of mine and a buddy's work. I've outgrown it, for sure, but I think your battle station would be extreme overkill for a pair of bead makers.
these ladys plan on doing workshops with alot of people. They are balling outta control with their ornament classes. 10 people at a time. im probably going to be doing some boro marble classes too. They need battle stations.

[..SGL..]

I worked in a shop that had 8 individual stations around the out side perimeter of the shop with a 12 person table in the middle, the 8 stations around the out side are all on separate hoods, but the 12 person table in the middle was all on a single hood made from Aluminum, because weight was a concern because the hood is so large. All of this is connected to 2 -
4 1/2 hp restaurant exhaust fans. We installed everything so I am not factoring contractors for anything and I am sure not charging for our own time, but the entire build was somewhere around 20k, so I don't see how 25k for 2 or 4 stations equates, especially when you aren't needing to meet any kind of city code hoopla, imo, definitely get more quotes, or better yet do the work yourself, assuming that someone knows how to safely do the work :-)