Bottle walls and windows. Where's the red?

[MickyLuvGlass]

My wife and I built a raised garden bed with green wine bottles and mortar.
Then we tried a bottle window. This time we scoured the local charity shop for coloured glass items because we fancied a bit of colour in this translucent project.
The blue items we found were genuinely coloured glass but all the red items we found turned out to be painted or at least have a easily removable coating of red over plain glass.

Does anyone know what the situation is regarding the availability of genuinely red glass bottles and other glass items?

I read that some red glass is made with the use of gold, which might make it a kind of semi-precious material. Ruby red glass is said to be made with the use of copper which would indicate a more economical ingredient and consequently more widespread availability.

Mike

[Aymie]

This is a good question and I am sure someone will be along with an answer shortly. I had never thought about it, but now I can't think of a single thing I have ever seen stored in a red bottle…or even a red bottle on it's own.

[Lux]

Corning used to make some ruby red labware. It is all red and not coated or colored. An ebay search for "Corning red flask" will show some items.

[LowTideGlass]

I believe you are correct in that red glass was traditionally created using gold. I know that Cranberry glass was created with gold.

More simply, they fact that red glass is hard to find is that it was never really mass produced. Only things I can think of are old brake lights, lanterns, ship lighting, lighthouse lights, anything else?

Interesting though, I have never really thought about that.

[brads]

The answer is pretty simple, transparent red glass is neither easy nor cheap to make, making it undesirable for mass produced items like bottles - at least from a manufacturer's standpoint.

The main colorant choices for producing red glass are:

Gold, which has the obvious drawback of price. Gold ruby also works best in a lead based glass - not ideal for bottles.

Copper, which can be very touchy as far as melting conditions, and to my eye at least, isn't a great red. (It often looks dark or muddy.) Copper ruby can be a pretty intense color so is often used in a very thin, flashed layer to keep it transparent.

Selenium/cadmium, again a touchy melt, with the added drawback of fairly toxic ingredients that like to gas off the melt. More expensive to melt than copper ruby, due to zinc replacing calcium in the glass, but less expensive than gold ruby. gives the truest red color when done right.

The cheapest way to make red glass for containers, aside from just painting it, is with copper ion diffusion, which leaves a thin layer of transparent red on the surface of the background glass. But doing that is still a lot more involved than making most colors, so is not something that is likely to be employed for mass produced bottles or other cheap ware.

You may notice that you won't find much yellow glass either, for some similar reasons. (Not to mention that yellow is a color that seldom sells well, making it even less desirable from a retail/manufacturing standpoint.)

[brads]

Corning used to make some ruby red labware. It is all red and not coated or colored. An ebay search for "Corning red flask" will show some items.

Don't count on the Corning ruby labware being solid red glass, although there might be some out there that I'm not aware of. If you're speaking about the red Pyrex labware called "low actinic" ware, the only stuff I know of isn't made of solid red glass, it's stained red using the copper ion exchange method that I mentioned in my other post. There's no question that it looks like red glass, even up close and personal. But it's really only the surface that is red.

[Lux]

Thanks for the info brads. I am familiar with the Simax Ion-X red but I did not know the Corning labware was the same. I think it would still work well for this application.

[MickyLuvGlass]

What brilliantly informative answers! I'm knocked out by the expertise of the posters. The range of methods for producing red glass is wide and impressive from a materials point of view.

I'm still trying to take in some of the many possibilities. From what's been written here, it seems on first impressions that one of the most practical ways for me to get red glass bottles in any durable form is to use the copper ion diffusion method mentioned a couple of times above.

I don't know if this could realistically be done in a small craft-glass environment, with a kiln but I intend to research the possibility now that I've gained a clue. I don't know how hard wearing the red would be when applied by this method, or if not very, whether it would be possible to put a thin layer of glass over the red to protect it.

Anyway thanks for the information, it's most appreciated.

Regards and best wishes,

Mike

[istandalone24/7]

http://www.delphiglass.com/spectrum-glass/transparent/spectrum-ruby-red-cathedral

[Aymie]

The ion-x tubing was pretty cool. Is that still available? I got a sample at a flame off one year. It was super weird to work with but got some really cool reds and purples.

[BORO]

http://m.ebay.com/itm/Strike-red-borosilicate-glass-Rod-7-mm-x-24-5-lbs-free-shipping-/111779356307?nav=SEARCH

This import red, was a great red. I had a carpenter ask me about red glass , to inlay letters into a high end fireplace. (fire back lights the red)

If your interested in creating any type of fused glass, or window glass by melting something... This worked great. And its super cheap, but still very durable borosilicate glass.

[brads]

What brilliantly informative answers! I'm knocked out by the expertise of the posters. The range of methods for producing red glass is wide and impressive from a materials point of view.

I'm still trying to take in some of the many possibilities. From what's been written here, it seems on first impressions that one of the most practical ways for me to get red glass bottles in any durable form is to use the copper ion diffusion method mentioned a couple of times above.

I don't know if this could realistically be done in a small craft-glass environment, with a kiln but I intend to research the possibility now that I've gained a clue. I don't know how hard wearing the red would be when applied by this method, or if not very, whether it would be possible to put a thin layer of glass over the red to protect it.

Anyway thanks for the information, it's most appreciated.

Regards and best wishes,

Mike

Ion exchange staining is far less technology intensive than it sounds, and completely doable in a studio. I've been meaning to try it for years, but like so many other things I'd like to experiment with, never quite got around to it. I have fairly detailed info about it around here somewhere. I'll post it if I can dig it up. In the meantime, this (http://lnu.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:525482/FULLTEXT01) should give you some more info.

Brad

P.S. Nearly forgot to mention - there is no need to worry about color durability with this. Although it will be a surface coloration, the red will not be a coating that needs to be protected. The copper that produces the red color will actually become part of the glass as it replaces sodium ions in the glass structure.

[Icarus]

Ion exchange staining is far less technology intensive than it sounds, and completely doable in a studio. I've been meaning to try it for years, but like so many other things I'd like to experiment with, never quite got around to it. I have fairly detailed info about it around here somewhere. I'll post it if I can dig it up.

Brad

Oh god, please?

Is this somewhat similar to the process where they chemically harden glass by allowing potassium ions to replace the surface sodium ions? We had a member here for a short while that worked for a place that did that. I remember him showing some bouncing beer mugs and whatnot.

I'd love to learn more about that!

[Aymie]

Me too!

[oG Glocc Coma]

Simax still sells Ion-X tubing in Red and Amber

[brads]

Oh god, please?

Is this somewhat similar to the process where they chemically harden glass by allowing potassium ions to replace the surface sodium ions? We had a member here for a short while that worked for a place that did that. I remember him showing some bouncing beer mugs and whatnot.

I'd love to learn more about that!

Yes, similar principals, different end results. Chemical strengthening is usually done by immersing the piece(s) in a bath of molten alkali salt, typically potassium nitrate. The larger potassium ions displace the smaller sodium or lithium ions and introduce compressive stress into the surface layer that strengthens the glass.

Copper staining works along the same lines, with copper ions replacing sodium ions in the surface layer of glass. Subsequent reduction turns the copper red. A bath of molten copper salts will work, but isn't necessary.

I'm still looking for my more detailed info. I know it's around here somewhere...

Add: Saxon Glass Technology in Alfred, NY (where I used to live) does chemical strengthening. Years ago, not long after they started up, the head honcho approached me about strengthening art wares, but I couldn't see the cost being worth it. Here's a link to a presentation about chemical strengthening (http://www.lehigh.edu/imi/teched/GlassProcess/Lectures/Lecture27_Varshneya.pdf) by him.

[MickyLuvGlass]

Thanks for the encouraging post and the PDF file Brad. It looks fascinating and extremely scientific. I'm going to read it and reread it carefully, though first impressions are that I'd have trouble translating this information into anything resembling practical workshop procedure.

Mike