View Full Version : What is Glass Art? A conversation....
snoopdog6502
09-01-2016, 06:24 PM
MOD NOTE: I'm moving this conversation to it's own thread to try and keep things civil and on topic. This may start a bit rough, if you want to read the previous conversation on taxes and the business of blowing glass as a hobby vs. profession, this all came out of a conversation you can find here: http://www.talkglass.com/forum/showt...-tax-questions
The debate about what Art is, and who is and isn't an Artist, and how it's appreciated, defined, and the market forces surrounding it is one that's very easy to get carried away it. We have no problem with heat, but please keep things civil and don't break forum rules. Personal attacks, name calling, and excessive rudeness for the purpose of baiting a response from another member is expressly against the rules and will be enforced here.
-Greymatter Glass (Doug)
It starts here with snoopdog6502's reply to Mute... we'll carry on from here:
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I piss outside...
And who the hell blowing glass/lamp working makes 60k...let alone 100k...
I have been working on the educational side of my work practicing all the things I struggle with.
I have sold $20 in pipes in the last two months,not even trying to sell pipes.
Doubt the IRS will come after me, being a noob I spend 5 times more for the privilege to work glass then I make in sales so far.
So not only am I a hobbyist Im still a trainee. I can make up to $12,000 a year in my state so I have a long way to go.
https://www.sba.gov/starting-business/filing-paying-taxes/it-business-or-hobby
My state.
http://dor.wa.gov/content/doingbusiness/registermybusiness/
Mike_Aurelius
09-02-2016, 04:47 AM
I piss outside...
And who the hell blowing glass/lamp working makes 60k...let alone 100k...
Ask the blowers who are selling pieces for $10K plus.
Ask the blowers who are selling pieces for $10K plus.
There's no need for me to. That isn't a "real" market in my opinion. Some of the pieces I've seen sold for that kind of money are a joke. The idiots who buy shit like that...in my opinion are trying to do something with there illegit money. I have a lot of thoughts about the morals of people who buy 10k+ pieces, and the ones who sell them. Some people are willing to do whatever it takes to be on top, even if they have to step on there own mother to get there. I wouldn't want someone to start reading this thread and think they are going to make a decent living lamp working. This is hard work, and hard on your body.
This is hard work, and hard on your body.
Hard on the mind too
Here's my comparison...
Those idiots who live in recreational states, yet still visit the dispensers...lazy idiots IMO
The mind fuck only comes from the internet. Stay off this and your mind will be free and clear. Spend your online time taking lessons much better use of time and much better results without the mind fucj
Jackass Glass
09-02-2016, 06:27 AM
There's no need for me to. That isn't a "real" market in my opinion. Some of the pieces I've seen sold for that kind of money are a joke. The idiots who buy shit like that...in my opinion are trying to do something with there illegit money. I have a lot of thoughts about the morals of people who buy 10k+ pieces, and the ones who sell them. Some people are willing to do whatever it takes to be on top, even if they have to step on there own mother to get there. I wouldn't want someone to start reading this thread and think they are going to make a decent living lamp working. This is hard work, and hard on your body.
id hate someone to read this thread and think its ok to not pay their taxes....
I never said not to pay your taxes. Actually I said that I tried. In my state I didn't exceed the hobbyist level.
Reading comprehension...
If you need other humans to survive, that makes you a parasite
If you need other humans to survive, that makes you a parasite
No man is an island!
There's no need for me to. That isn't a "real" market in my opinion. Some of the pieces I've seen sold for that kind of money are a joke. The idiots who buy shit like that...in my opinion are trying to do something with there illegit money. I have a lot of thoughts about the morals of people who buy 10k+ pieces, and the ones who sell them. Some people are willing to do whatever it takes to be on top, even if they have to step on there own mother to get there. I wouldn't want someone to start reading this thread and think they are going to make a decent living lamp working. This is hard work, and hard on your body.
How is buying a $10k piece any different than someone buying a $10k sculpture or work of art to put on their mantle? Your post is so incredibly derogatory towards the customers who drive demand for high end pieces. Why do you think the top top artists are constantly pushing the limits of the medium?
Your post just screams jealously. And there's reason to be jealous, these guys worked very hard to get where they're at. It's very appealing to think that anyone can a achieve in a couple years when it took others a couple decades to master.
Not jealousy. Sympathy. I know no matter how I word it, my feelings will be taken out of context. No big deal. I'm sorry but comparing other forms of art to "functional" smoking art is hilarious. The truth is I'm a glass blower with lots of skill. So when I see or hear about consumers paying those kind of prices it's funny. All this rig hype...is this where you wanna be when momma comes home. Caught red handed on the hype train.
istandalone24/7
09-02-2016, 07:12 AM
There's no need for me to. That isn't a "real" market in my opinion. Some of the pieces I've seen sold for that kind of money are a joke. The idiots who buy shit like that...in my opinion are trying to do something with there illegit money. I have a lot of thoughts about the morals of people who buy 10k+ pieces, and the ones who sell them. Some people are willing to do whatever it takes to be on top, even if they have to step on there own mother to get there. I wouldn't want someone to start reading this thread and think they are going to make a decent living lamp working. This is hard work, and hard on your body.
it's real as long as the artist/craftsman is getting paid. art is worth what people will pay for it. because you won't pay 10k on a rig, doesn't mean someone else won't (i wouldnt' even if i was wealthy). that is in fact a real market.
istandalone24/7
09-02-2016, 07:15 AM
honestly who cares about the hype train? you can choose to cash in and utilize it, or not. the guy who does dive into the hype apparatus and colors will make more money, even if he's less skilled. it's annoying, but it is what it is.
just putting illuminatti into a piece makes it a panty dropper to some people. yes the bubble will pop but man, soak it up while its there.
I disagree again. Big surprise.
Maybe I should have said that the market is tiny. I've seen huge glass sculptures and actual artglass. None of which is in this"market"...
Just because someone is more retarded than yourself, doesn't mean they should be taken advantage of.
Kind of the way the government treats us citizens.
I'm not going to soak up the shit bubble, only to have it pop and spray shit all over my character.
Just think if someone found out that making a compression marble that you sold to them for 200+$ only took you an hour to make... I bet they'll think you're a real stand up person. Especially when the literature is out there to do such, with little skill.
Can everyone say it with me....
greed
Jackass Glass
09-02-2016, 07:33 AM
Can everyone say it with me....
greed
I dont mean to sound insulting but you seemingly have no understanding of sales and marketing, and apparently macroeconomics. take econ 101 and then we should continue this discussion.
in case you dont feel like it....
Mike hits day one of that class on the head....
it's real as long as the artist/craftsman is getting paid. art is worth what people will pay for it. because you won't pay 10k on a rig, doesn't mean someone else won't (i wouldnt' even if i was wealthy). that is in fact a real market.
We all agree something is worth what someone else is willing to pay.in case you aren't familiar with our economy...it's shitty. What I would pay doesn't matter because I'm not a consumer. I make glass.not buy it.
All these smart little remarks only make you look like a salesman...aka a parasite.
Good glass sells itself, without hype.
The problem with our current economy is thinking like u are. Greedily. But this is what I expect from the internet. A bunch of scandalous business men sticking together, trying to be greedy and fuck over anyone who will allow it.
For example there is a substance called triclosan. A ton of huge corporations use this in there toothpaste, and hand soap. They did it for a long time, some probably still do. Why? Because it makes them money and we are all dumb enough to buy it. Does that make it right? No big deal right? They can feed us all GMO food without nutrition. Is that OK?
For those who don't know triclosan has been linked to nerve damage. But yeah it's cool
Greymatter Glass
09-02-2016, 07:51 AM
What "market" is it that you think we're in?
There's no specific day to day definition of what "Art" is. Anyone who tries to narrowly define it fails. If you want to set your opinions against others, that's fine... please do so in a calm and civil manner. I'm no authority, but I do have an art degree, consider myself a living artist, and have a well form personal opinion of what makes something art.
I agree that not all pipes are Art in much the same way that not all photographs are art... there's product, and there's art, and an arbitrary line between the two. Any object can be art, it's almost entirely in the eye of the beholder...
I have been to high end Fine Art galleries and have seen pipes presented in them as fine art, I've seen masterful execution of design and technique that meld aesthetic, form, and function. That's very much Art in my mind.
I've held $15,000-20,000 pieces. Some of them are functionally and visually not much different from $500-1000 pipes, and others are truly works of mind blowing proportion and Art. Art is not about money or value.
As for who spends money on things like that... people who can, even people who can't afford it but find a way. You can disparage those people, you can question their motive or how they came to have that money in the first place (which is only a subjective opinion) - but chances are you have no idea, and getting sucked into the trap of believing what you think. I collect glass Art, I don't have any work worth more than few thousand dollars, but in the $1-2k range, there's an almost endless supply of Art and product being made and sold everywhere every day. If I could afford to have bought every piece from the Michigan Glass Project auctions, I would have. What I did manage to get, I have no doubt it's art - because I say so. You don't need to agree, and I accept that you may not.... but as you don't have a stake in it either way, why should our opinions matter to one another? Just the fact that people attach value in excess of the cost of materials and then get offended by numbers suggests to me that whatever the object is in question has a certain intrinsic quality that isn't defined by it's function... is that not Art? The best art ever made has been controversial in it's time, and continues to raise questions about it's very nature... so yeah, put that in your 16th century briar pipe and smoke it.
And is this (art glass) a small market? It's well over a billion a year now... that's not a small market. Yes, that includes ALL glass "Art" including "production" of design work, and hand made glass pipes being made specifically as Art is a rather small chunk of that, but it's growing, and it's every bit as real even if there's only 2 people playing it vs the billions who mass consume Art in the form of music, television, movies, literature, etc...
If you haven't had the chance to expose yourself (why can't "phrasing" still be a thing people??) to the world of glass Art that includes pipes, I can only suggest you do so. Go to some of the trade shows, go to AGI, GAS, DFO, etc. You'll see it... it happens, it's awesome, and it will change the way you see and produce your work.
Or don't, you know... I mean, plenty of people I know making $50k a year on production and aren't getting a national profile from it, but raise kids, own homes, pay for their cars, and set something aside. Personal finance is a whole 'nuther thing.
Greymatter Glass
09-02-2016, 08:04 AM
Ok, got this moved to it's own thread... we can continue here, but please keep it civil.
-Doug
OK civil.
How about I create an economy where I basically enable citizens lives to the point of them being deemed incompetent.
I'm not going to soak up the shit bubble, only to have it pop and spray shit all over my character.
Just think if someone found out that making a compression marble that you sold to them for 200+$ only took you an hour to make... I bet they'll think you're a real stand up person. Especially when the literature is out there to do such, with little skill.
This I have to disagree on... I've been working on impressions and such for marbles and pendants probably around 7 to 8 months and I'm finally getting the skill to make it work.
It's taken many many hours to do so. The One I have in the kiln right now may be my best pendant yet..wont know until its done and in my hand. If I were in the market to sell it, I would charge what its worth to me...40 to 50 bucks even, if were outstanding (which I'm probably not quite there yet)...but if someone is willing to pay that for it..then them and my self will both be happy. if I thought it was worth 1000 bucks and someone absolutely had to have it and that was worth it to them..then they and my self again are happy...me more so ;) but both happy.
OK civil.
How about I create an economy where I basically enable citizens lives to the point of them being deemed incompetent.
They they wont produce anything that others would want...no market.
JayBoogie
09-02-2016, 08:21 AM
How can you say functional pieces are not art, mute? Micah Evens has a piece that is probably going to the Smithsonian after the lady who currently owns it passes, micklesen has switched from doing sculptural, non functioning to his weapons of piece series and the glass be puts out, in my opinion, is still very much a form of art. The people who get upset that they pair 200 for a marble that only took an hour don't understand that the way to get to the point of being able to produce it in an hour was with tons of work, blood, gallons of sweat and maybe a dash of tears. A lot of buyers of glass are getting educated about what all goes into making certain things and understand why things are priced like they are. Do you know consider video games, tshirt designers, people who trim crazy shit into hedges artists? I'm sorry if there's a bunch of misspelled shit in this, I don't have time to proof read. Have a good day!
Greymatter Glass
09-02-2016, 08:24 AM
OK civil.
How about I create an economy where I basically enable citizens lives to the point of them being deemed incompetent.
Hey, I'm certain you're not the only who who shares that philosophy/opinion... I'm very much in favor of self sufficiency and constantly see everywhere around me people who won't survive if plucked out of today and planted in the world 200 years ago.... but hypothetical and impossible propositions are just the realm of philosophy.
We live in a real world with real challenges, opportunities, and external forces that we have no control over.
Do you know, or know of at least, Marcel Braun? He's got some really strong and currently forming ideas on Art and Economics and is one of the only people I know who's active in trying to make a statement about both at the same time. Some of us joke about his "fake money" but I've listened to him, watched this process from the start - he wants to build an economy based on art, labor, and material - not fiat currency, securities, and credit. He makes murrine into large issue (but limited) coinage that has a value to him - he will sell you the coins at face value, say $33, or $100 or whatever... then turn around and trade them back at face value any time for anything else he or other aligned artists make. Each coin represents so many hours of labor among so many people, it represents real money spent on materials in the production.... it's pretty fascinating.
There are also communities that have formed (and have been forming since "the start") that stake their foundation on the morals and philosophy of it's founders and leaders - the only one, ultimately, holding you back from following suit, is you. Buy in, Cash out, start one, or work to end one - all up to you. In the mean time, millions of people before and after you will find a way to express their opinions through whatever creative process they chose, and others will follow them and accept it as Art - or not.
OK. Since I started this shit I'm going to continue to try and express my opinion. Mostly because I feel I have somewhat miss represented my intentions.
I personally know about the blood and sweat that goes into making and understanding and producing quality glass. I'm not trying to say what we as glass artists do is easy. It's not easy.
Taking classes can really shorten the learning curve. Ive seen self taught glass that was no where near the quality of those who've taken lessons. The more hands on teaching you receive the faster you'll advance.
I have seen lots of functional pieces that I consider art. When u call something heady, to me it is art. Its all about the beholders opinion, as greymatter stated.
I'm glad that the glass industry is breaking into new levels of acceptance. An entire glass museum about functional pipes would be amazing.
Our current economy is the one I was sarcastically referring to when I said "create".
History has a tendancy to repeat itself. All empires will fall. And I would be happy to join such murrine cults.
Greymatter Glass
09-02-2016, 08:48 AM
And I would be happy to join such murrine cults.
Contact Marcel. You can go up to his shop and work on the project, and/or buy the coinage from him.... I'm planning on getting up there "sooner or later" but I managed to get some coins from him in Detroit.
1AU = $10. The coins with 0.0AU value I consider as part of the project as well, but have no face value so are worth $0 in the exchange, but will eventually appreciate on value to collectors...
86503
Mike_Aurelius
09-02-2016, 08:58 AM
There's no need for me to. That isn't a "real" market in my opinion. Some of the pieces I've seen sold for that kind of money are a joke. The idiots who buy shit like that...in my opinion are trying to do something with there illegit money. I have a lot of thoughts about the morals of people who buy 10k+ pieces, and the ones who sell them. Some people are willing to do whatever it takes to be on top, even if they have to step on there own mother to get there. I wouldn't want someone to start reading this thread and think they are going to make a decent living lamp working. This is hard work, and hard on your body.
You asked who was making $60K much less $100K. I answered your question. No need to get salty.
Cool thread!My mom thinks my glass is all art,she is so proud of my glassblowing.
Greymatter Glass
09-02-2016, 09:16 AM
Cool thread!My mom thinks my glass is all art,she is so proud of my glassblowing.
:rollin
My mom has the very first not-garbage thing i made my first day on the torch.... I have no idea what I was even trying to make.
And in art school, I had multiple teachers who forbid the discussion of "what is art" as it would derail the entire class for the whole day... but then you'd go to art history and that's all they'd talk about, so it balances out.
Greymatter Glass
09-02-2016, 09:25 AM
For example there is a substance called triclosan. A ton of huge corporations use this in there toothpaste, and hand soap. They did it for a long time, some probably still do. Why? Because it makes them money and we are all dumb enough to buy it. Does that make it right? No big deal right? They can feed us all GMO food without nutrition. Is that OK?
I feel dirty for getting off topic... but it sort of relates to the larger discussion maybe... the FDA says Trichlosan is NOT ok: http://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/fda-orders-antibacterials-removed-consumer-soaps-n642036
Government moves at a much slower pace than the modern Internet savvy well informed consumer, but in the end there's much less conspiracy than some people believe in.... foot draggin yes, evil board rooms of assholes plotting the death of their own consumers? not so much.
Moves much slower...that is an understatement. If my microbiology teacher was lecturing about it 6 years ago, I think that's a little more than dropping the ball. Do I think there is a room full of people figuring out how to poison the masses? No. But the conversation has definitely taken place. It's more likely some scientist who has alterior views of our planet or universe. When you start to think of our universe on a cellular level things come to light. How unimportant we are etc... Without people this whole thing could continue without a hiccup. Earths parasite
Lowtides signature sums it up nicely.
Jxbey
09-03-2016, 10:48 AM
If you need other humans to survive, that makes you a parasite
we're all just a bunch of parasite, i want to see these hour long implosions that your selling for 200. or are all these statements just hypotheticals. i watched a gal buy a dosa sleek piece for 35k then watched said girl weeks later on the internet microwave this piece and seen pictures of it broke. all these thoughts and emotions but it is what it is. who is anyone to say what art is especially nowadays
HumanLathe
09-04-2016, 06:58 AM
I sell my 2 hour flowers for 550.00 but I also make the largest boro flower marbles out there..my vortex's sell for 150 and I can make them in less than an hour. Eusheen drives a tesla now, people have shops built for over 100k, pieces are selling for over 100k now. Mr grey is having a art show showing 20k - 300k priced pieces. Glass pipes have spawned their own market. The market of functional art has been funded by the bho oil businesses mainly the last 5-6 years and some high-end pipe galleries that have popped up but mostly the cannabis movement has been in full effect and showing its support to its artists.
But the price of things doesn't decide whether it is art or not. Last I heard the art of pipe making in America was now known as the largest American art movement and has earned it's place in American art history.
Shattered Dreams
09-07-2016, 11:22 AM
i love that cannabis introduced me to this world of glass art.
MpVpRb
09-11-2016, 03:42 PM
What is art?
My definition is..if you make something to please yourself, to perfect your craft, to scratch an itch, or any other personal reason..it's art. It might not be good art, it might suck, but if you do it because you love it, it's the purest form of art
If you do something you have no passion for, in order to please others, it's not art, it's commercial product. There's nothing wrong with commercial product, I've made it for many years as an engineer
You win if you do something for the love of doing it and it turns out to be commercially valuable. Much of my engineering work fits this definition
At the moment, my glasswork is imperfect student exercises. Hopefully, I will improve to the point where people would consider my work valuable. But my goal is to always make stuff that entertains and challenges me
Sparko
09-13-2016, 01:45 AM
"First off none of this shit is art. How dare these inconsiderate aholes sell their glass bullshit for such crazy crazy prices! Its made of glass not gold , geez how do you sleep at night?!? Probably the same dumb fuckers who dont have time to deal with the bulshit of growing, so you walk your rich asses into the store and BUY weed that any old idiot off the street is EASILY capable of growing!! I mean think about it you dummys, just put the seed in some mirical grow mix and BAM, insta headies be-otchies! And while your at it you might as well watch a few revere videos tonight so you can make an encalmo wigwag rig with a reticello on the side. Throw a tree perc in there too since your gonna have a whole unit to smoke no problem."
LOL totally kidding guys, the above quote is joke for laughing purposes only. I think art is anything hand made is art, if made by machine its not art and that's just my opinion. Someone will probably prove me wrong and i encourage this haha.
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