Almost ready but I have some questions

[C4LM]

Okay so here it is try number 2 lol, my last post wasn't saved :twitch:. But I am here for some advice. I have stumbled upon this website in one of my quests for knowledge in the dangers of torch work, I say this because I NEED to put my health 100% as a priority. With that being said I understand everything has some risk but taking the proper steps and precautions will keep you safe.

So far I have everything needed to start except the following:
1).Oxygen and Propane tank (Currently looking for a used customer owned oxygen tank, Propane will be bought new).

2).Ventilation! (I'm Super stuck here with so many different options, How is this:http://growershouse.com/phat-fan-12-inch-1708-cfm, (Strong enough for NO2?Metals from all colored glass? etc?) From there I'd find the same 12 Inch ducting to a small cone to place a little space from my torch instead of a hood. I will do a smoke bomb test with 2-4.

Something to the effect of this:
87938

3).My eye protection is on its way (Green ACE IR 5.0 Goggles - Ride King SHADE 5), I have read they can be hard to see through but like I said, I want to be fully protected and will add more light if needed. Any comments on these?

4). Will be ordered soon, Black Ceramic tile Matte finish to cover work space, 3M 6200 Respirator with 60926 Filters.

My Work space will be the following: Pictures included.

A Garage in Orlando FL, NO car will be in the garage during flame work and the door will either be opened or cracked depending on which helps suck out more air. The idea is to only use half of the garage. I apologize for the mess in the pictures but my work space will only consist of that bench made into the wall, the smaller table I may use to further my flame from the wall and create more work space. The trash bins will stay there and the shelf next to the water heater will be cleaned up. (All other junk/trash will be out of there).

Measurements:

Length of the table to the garage door. 198in/16.5ft

From the wall that the table is on to the middle of the garage is ~105in/8.75ft

The wall desk is 95in/~8ft long, and sticks out 23in/~2ft

88in/~7ftfrom the wall with the water heater to the edge of the desk.

8793987940

I do appreciate constructive criticism and suggestions, I'm here to learn and maximize my safety while doing something I love. Any suggestions on how I should place my items like tanks, torch etc.

On one hand id like the shortest distance for my fan so working on the edge of the table slightly shifted facing out the garage would, and having the inline suck out the side door keeping my tanks by the plastic bins by the garage door?

Thank you again for any help given!

[Foxy999]

I suggest checking craigslist daily for k tanks.

Also, an attic fan from home depot will work well enough and a lot cheaper.

[Greymatter Glass]

... 3M 6200 Respirator with 60926 Filters.

3M cartridge is for Organic Vapor/Acid Gas/Ammonia/Methylamine/Formaldehyde. Those are not a concern for art glass whatsoever.

I understand people have their concerns. If you've ever been diagnosed with a chemical sensitivity disorder I would advise you to seek the advice of a medical professional before working with glass.

That said, that particular filter cartridge is a waste of money. Further you really can't wear a respirator and blow glass, it's just not practical. You'll need access to your mouth on a constant and immediate basis, with both hands full, you'll have great difficulty being productive if you have a mask on.

Finally, there's not really a need. The particulate exposure in a glass art environment is minimal, and generally categorized as irritants. The only time you might find a respirator useful is if you're using dry cutting tools on glass or silica containing materials, mixing/handling raw chemicals to produce glass and/or glass color, or using a uranium based frit (in which case that would not be an appropriate cartridge). This list is not exhaustive, and there are several other hazards but they're uncommon and not something a beginner should concern themselves with.

The vapors produced from both melting glass and oxygen/propane combustion are a concern, and proper ventilation should be sufficient to lower exposure to below permissible limits.


As for HOW you ventilate your space, there's not a great deal of either application specific or even general guides available, largely due to liability concerns. There are many individual and ad hoc descriptions around of how people set their own shops up, and we have an entire section of the forum devoted to ventilation discussion, build threads, and attempts to quantify certain values. Even with those resources, I would always advise to consult with a qualified engineer who can survey your location and design a proper system, or advise on proposed designs. Most of us do not have the $30-100k a well engineered system would cost to install, and find a "good enough" solution. A direct exhaust tube in front of the torch, which seems right, has flaws - e.g. the vapor pressure and velocity of many of the gases produced far exceed the face velocity of a small diameter duct in front of a torch, and will vector off into the surrounding air and not be exhausted. An over head hood that collects hot air, and the hot (rising) combustion products is far superior, and often easier to design, install, and work with.

For tanks... high pressure oxygen tanks can be stored indoors or out, but must be secured. You can buy wall anchoring and free standing equipment from your gas supplier.

Propane MUST be stored outside, and only tanks up to 5 gallons (BBQ tanks) can be brought inside during use, and that's typically not advised.

You cannot legally run a rubber flexible hose through a wall, you have to have a rigid pipe for that. For propane you can use black iron pipe from any hardware store, but for oxygen you'll need stainless steel, copper or brass that has been cleaned for oxygen use, and rated for 3000 psi (it's pretty common, it's just kind of expensive). once inside your propane pressure cannot exceed 20psi.

Anyways - Don't let me discourage you or anything, you've got a decent enough space, if you can get it adequately ventilated, and get your bench built out, you'll probably be fine... no one can make promises, but even knowing that you need to consider these things puts you ahead of where many MANY people start.

Finally, welcome to the Melting Pot, if there's anything you need help with feel free to post and ask, eventually someone who actually likes to help people will show up and reply. If you have any trouble feel free to message the mods (you can PM anyone with a "staff" badge, or post a thread and click the little /!\ triangle "report post" button, and just explain in a brief note what's going on and one of the mods will reply as soon as possible. . I hope you find the site useful and become a contributing member of our community!

-Doug

[BurntHands]

I suggest checking craigslist daily for k tanks.

Also, an attic fan from home depot will work well enough and a lot cheaper.

When searching classifieds, search "oxy" as well as oxygen. I've found good deals listed as oxy-acetylene that don't come up when you search oxygen.

[Mike_Aurelius]

As Doug said, dump the tube and use a hood. You will be far better off.

If you want to spend the time, cruise through my blog, lots and lots of information there: https://mikeaurelius.wordpress.com/

Above all, don't take the cheap option. You will always have to redo it, sometimes immediately. Spend the money, do it right.

[Mike_Aurelius]

I'll also note that in many places, a 1 pound propane tank is the maximum you can have indoors. Yes, you *can* bring a 20# propane tank indoors, on a temporary basis, but its not smart and not a good idea.

[Mike_Aurelius]

..

[old_biker]

I'll also note that in many places, a 1 pound propane tank is the maximum you can have indoors. Yes, you *can* bring a 20# propane tank indoors, on a temporary basis, but its not smart and not a good idea.
As for inside use i see huge amount of propane buffers those tanks look biger than 5 gal but used inside nearly every business alsi forklift tankd look a bit. Larger and see them inside? Not trying to argue. Just stating i see those used alot anf stored inside many businesses on east coast

[C4LM]

I suggest checking craigslist daily for k tanks.

Also, an attic fan from home depot will work well enough and a lot cheaper.


When searching classifieds, search "oxy" as well as oxygen. I've found good deals listed as oxy-acetylene that don't come up when you search oxygen.

Thanks to both of you I'll be checking this out very soon!


3M cartridge is for Organic Vapor/Acid Gas/Ammonia/Methylamine/Formaldehyde. Those are not a concern for art glass whatsoever.

I understand people have their concerns. If you've ever been diagnosed with a chemical sensitivity disorder I would advise you to seek the advice of a medical professional before working with glass.

That said, that particular filter cartridge is a waste of money. Further you really can't wear a respirator and blow glass, it's just not practical. You'll need access to your mouth on a constant and immediate basis, with both hands full, you'll have great difficulty being productive if you have a mask on.


I had called 3M and told them the kind of work id be doing making sure to say the words fumes,glass,metals,carbon dioxide etc and suggested the filter 2097 and that the 60926 was that with added protection of vapors on a molecular level. At the moment I will be using just my hands for marbles and pendants so I figured I could get away with a respirator. Although I do hear you on not needing one unless I'm doing certain work if I did choose to wear a respirator at times with a correct filter are you saying that the amount of fumes doesn't make it necessary or that it just wont filter these vapors. (Not looking to substitute ventilation). I'm asking here because if it can filter out any amount of byproduct I may just go for it as a peace of mind and see how I feel about it.


Propane MUST be stored outside, and only tanks up to 5 gallons (BBQ tanks) can be brought inside during use, and that's typically not advised.

You cannot legally run a rubber flexible hose through a wall, you have to have a rigid pipe for that. For propane you can use black iron pipe from any hardware store, but for oxygen you'll need stainless steel, copper or brass that has been cleaned for oxygen use, and rated for 3000 psi (it's pretty common, it's just kind of expensive). once inside your propane pressure cannot exceed 20psi.

Could this be a propane tank sitting outside that side door? I'm not planning on going through any wall, my hoses should be longer the my garage length so if needed I can run them outside. I have T-grade hoses suggested from the local glass shop, will this work?


As Doug said, dump the tube and use a hood. You will be far better off.

If you want to spend the time, cruise through my blog, lots and lots of information there: https://mikeaurelius.wordpress.com/

Above all, don't take the cheap option. You will always have to redo it, sometimes immediately. Spend the money, do it right.

I am using your site but id like to run something by you, This Fan (http://www.globalindustrial.com/p/hvac/fans/blower/portable-ventilation-fan-12-inch-with-32-feet-flexible-ducting?infoParam.campaignId=T9F&gclid=CjwKEAiA1ITCBRDO-oLA-q_n8xYSJADjBQfGCDu8VN0i-UWQdEGmX-kJR6h1uF_Lk2_JyHkytHJE2xoCyfXw_wcB) seems to have a very good CFM, decent size, and good price. Is it worth it and if not why? I'm not sure I'm grasping it but my idea of a setup would be lets say this fan if it was ideal. It already comes ducting so couldn't I just set this up on my table and run a short amount of ducting from home depot into a hood (Same size as fan 12in?) and that would complete my extraction part. Is it best to point exhaust towards the ground as not to spread it all over? After the extraction I could essentially buy another one of these fans, crack the garage open and suck air from the outside into the garage?

Thank you all for your help :)

[snoopdog6502]

Plan on a fan made to suck. a fan pushing is not good unless its on the wall pushing air immediately outside.

[Mike_Aurelius]

As for inside use i see huge amount of propane buffers those tanks look biger than 5 gal but used inside nearly every business alsi forklift tankd look a bit. Larger and see them inside? Not trying to argue. Just stating i see those used alot anf stored inside many businesses on east coast
.
The law is for homes, not factory floors or warehouses.

[Mike_Aurelius]

Plan on a fan made to suck. a fan pushing is not good unless its on the wall pushing air immediately outside.

That's just silly. Fans are designed to move air and it doesn't matter whether they are pushing or pulling. A properly designed system will work with the fan anywhere.

[Mike_Aurelius]

Could this be a propane tank sitting outside that side door? I'm not planning on going through any wall, my hoses should be longer the my garage length so if needed I can run them outside. I have T-grade hoses suggested from the local glass shop, will this work?

Yes, a line through an open door or window is considered a temporary installation and is permitted PROVIDED that the hoses are disconnected at the end of every session and the tank is stored outside at all times.



I am using your site but id like to run something by you, This Fan (http://www.globalindustrial.com/p/hvac/fans/blower/portable-ventilation-fan-12-inch-with-32-feet-flexible-ducting?infoParam.campaignId=T9F&gclid=CjwKEAiA1ITCBRDO-oLA-q_n8xYSJADjBQfGCDu8VN0i-UWQdEGmX-kJR6h1uF_Lk2_JyHkytHJE2xoCyfXw_wcB) seems to have a very good CFM, decent size, and good price. Is it worth it and if not why? I'm not sure I'm grasping it but my idea of a setup would be lets say this fan if it was ideal. It already comes ducting so couldn't I just set this up on my table and run a short amount of ducting from home depot into a hood (Same size as fan 12in?) and that would complete my extraction part. Is it best to point exhaust towards the ground as not to spread it all over? After the extraction I could essentially buy another one of these fans, crack the garage open and suck air from the outside into the garage?

Thank you all for your help :)

No. Just. No. Never design a system backwards. Always start with the hood and go outwards. And don't use two fans. Use one fan to exhaust the hood area, it will draw its own replacement fresh air.

Ducting needs to be smooth-sided to keep the amount of drag (turbulence) in the duct to a minimum. Read the ventilation primer on the blog I linked to.

[menty666]

Think long and hard about where you're siting everything too, it's a b***h to move after the fact.

[BORO]

Pushing air with your fan, vs pulling air with your fan.

If you push air from the hood, and a leak shows up in your exhaust system. It will blow the "bad" air out the leaks into your space.


If you have a fan pulling at the end of the ducting and a leak is drawing IN room air, no worries.

Fwiw. I had a professional install the shop set up at my work. It just started leaking where it meets the outer wall, After my fan. I only noticed after it started to make a high pitched air sound. Who knows how long I was breathing in used air.

[Mike_Aurelius]

Unless it is a gigantic hole, a small leak is not going to affect you at all.

To use the same logic, a leak in a pull-type installation will draw clean air out of the room, lessening the efficiency of the hooded section. You see? It's still silly. Be sure the seams and joints are sealed, and you won't have issues.

[BORO]

Yes, leaky systems are undesirable.

Obviously perfect systems/torches/glass would be ideal. That's not the case tho.

Personally , I will take a loss in cfm moving out of the shop, over that same cfm drawing everything I don't want into my shop.

My system was professionally installed /sealed , and up to local code. It still failed. Meanwhile , O.p. is trying to save $. Asking what suggestions/pitfalls to avoid , never having done this before.

It was only a suggestion to consider. YMMV?

Guess I'm just "silly" , sorry.

[Shattered Dreams]

i would say not to bother paying for that fan with ducting, if you can get it without. then use real ducting.

ive been using the smaller version for a couple years now, its like 1500/1300 cfm.
i have less than 2 ft of "duct" straight out the top/back of an enclosure and out a board that is fit in place of a window.

its loud but seems to work. ive been planning to replace it soon.
i want to find a larger fan that can run on low and be quiet.

so if you need to save money, it will work, but it would be better to get something that is better quality, because you will spend the money eventually.

[C4LM]

Thank you all for the suggestions/advice and conversation. At the moment I'm trying to get ahold of a hood and just build from there. I will report back in this thread once progress has been made, if I get the hood I want I'll have to go a different route with the fan.

[snoopdog6502]

That's just silly. Fans are designed to move air and it doesn't matter whether they are pushing or pulling. A properly designed system will work with the fan anywhere.

They may work half assed pooping .05% of the dirty air back into your work space, but that's not acceptable.

Why do it so half way and less safe? In every industrial setting smoke and dust is sucked up and taken away, that why you vaccume your home not use a leaf blower.

This helps you get a visual of the problem, leaks, sometimes at the fan itself. Most can type fans are garbage.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PR7Pt0zXbsY

[Mike_Aurelius]

As I pointed out to you the last time you posted that video, those fans are not designed to be used in open space. You use them there AT YOUR OWN RISK. Those fans are designed mainly as bathroom fans.

They are NOT industrial fans. They are commercial/home fans. They are not designed to move flame-contaminated air safely. YOU USE THEM AT YOUR OWN RISK.

Edit: Be sure you select the Fantech *INDUSTRIAL* fan series, not the more widely and generally available home/commercial fan series.

This is what I meant about a properly designed system. A properly designed system will use a fan that is designed so that it either pushes or pulls air without leakage.

[Mike_Aurelius]

My system was professionally installed /sealed , and up to local code. It still failed.

Not trying to be salty, but did you call the contractor back to fix the problem? One bad installation does not qualify (IMO) as a blanket condemnation of an entire design.

[snoopdog6502]

Iv never used the can fans even in a grow room.

Fans should still be sucking, away from the heat source, the ducting should for the most party be negative pressure. You should not risk your long term heath to the properly designed system put in by a knuckle head who makes ducting and seals it with tape on a positive pressure side because they are too damn ignorant to put the fan in the right place.

[Nomad]

It is going to be hot in there since it is Florida. Get an AC unit. Maybe a dehumidifier also?

[Nomad]

I have noticed that most fume goes up directly above the torch not in front of it.
Next studio I am going to put in an overhead hood. I have a 12 inch fan in front of the torch now.
I am thinking about a used commercial kitchen hood with exhaust fan myself next.

[Nomad]

But garages can be cool. I would put in a vent on the floor instead of leaving the door open.
This way you can have air intake as well as if there is a propane leak it will go outside since propane is heavier than air.

[Mike_Aurelius]

Iv never used the can fans even in a grow room.

Fans should still be sucking, away from the heat source, the ducting should for the most party be negative pressure. You should not risk your long term heath to the properly designed system put in by a knuckle head who makes ducting and seals it with tape on a positive pressure side because they are too damn ignorant to put the fan in the right place.

Says who? You?

LOLZ

[MpVpRb]

Yes, ventilation is a necessity

But, more is not always better

My initial fan was way too powerful. It felt like working in a wind tunnel. The far flame was unusable because of turbulence

I changed the motor on the fan, it now runs at a more reasonable speed. All is well

[Greymatter Glass]

As I pointed out to you the last time you posted that video, those fans are not designed to be used in open space. You use them there AT YOUR OWN RISK. Those fans are designed mainly as bathroom fans.

They are NOT industrial fans. They are commercial/home fans. They are not designed to move flame-contaminated air safely. YOU USE THEM AT YOUR OWN RISK.

IF You're talking about the Fantech fans in that video above.... uh... Mike, I own 5 of the Fantech FKD-12XL fans, and I can assure you man, they're everything you say they're not and then some. Maybe not all the fans they make, but the ones I use are amaze-balls. I do agree that FanTech makes some lower cost (and quality) bathroom style fans, but they also make a very high quality industrial line. I wouldn't use a bathroom fan for glass ventilation, they're 2 very different applications.

The FKD line I use: http://www.fantech.net/globalassets/downloads/leaflets/english/450396-fkd-series-en.pdf

They're made for high temperature intake, up to 140ºF. I've never had one shut down due to thermal issues (and in my design they're usually about 4-5 feet away from the intake of the hood, which is 5' or so above the torch...)

[Greymatter Glass]

C4LM, another thing to keep in mind...

I can't tell from your pictures, but if you have _ANY_ gas appliances in your garage, e.g. furnace, water heater, or clothes dryer, be very careful about how you set up your ventilation - I would absolutely contact a professional HVAC installer who is familiar with general exhaust systems (many, ir not most, residential hvac pros are not qualified for this type of system).

The danger is that if your exhaust system creates too much pressure (negative or positive) it will affect the way your gas appliances operate, increasing chances of equipment damage, fire, explosion and CO exposure. This isn't a minor risk. Seriously.

[Mike_Aurelius]

Doug -- yes, I was referring mainly to the household line, not their industrial line. My apologies to anyone who misinterpreted that.

[Mike_Aurelius]

--delete--

[C4LM]

C4LM, another thing to keep in mind...

I can't tell from your pictures, but if you have _ANY_ gas appliances in your garage, e.g. furnace, water heater, or clothes dryer, be very careful about how you set up your ventilation - I would absolutely contact a professional HVAC installer who is familiar with general exhaust systems (many, ir not most, residential hvac pros are not qualified for this type of system).

The danger is that if your exhaust system creates too much pressure (negative or positive) it will affect the way your gas appliances operate, increasing chances of equipment damage, fire, explosion and CO exposure. This isn't a minor risk. Seriously.

Man I just keep getting hit with more and more haha. I had bought all my stuff without being told any of the dangers and then started researching. Shame on me but its what I wanna do, Ill see if I can find a professional but I'm not having too much hope in someone who knows their shit and is familiar with what I need. Still gonna go for it! :D

Thank you all again these are things I need to know that no one tells you about.

[snoopdog6502]

Just for your information, my house gas furnace and water heater are in the the glass shop .
I unplug the furnace its off, I plug an oxygen concentrator to that circuit.. turn the water heater off, the switch is on,off or pilot. easy enough to turn off.
(I have to relight the water heater pilot light after working.)

If you do have natural gas it will run a small torch like a Bobcat,Minor,Alpha, mini torch, national 3A hand torch and a Bunsen burner made for natural gas.
I have videos of several of the torches on gas, I like to use natural gas on small stuff and small torches. I never run out of gas ever.
We are blessed that the HVAC guy who did the furnace and water heater,gas line work on my house lives 2 doors down so I do have some professional supervision I'm not just a stoned goof playing with gas lines and fire and electricity. LOL

Be safe.:)