Mr.P0rn
11-13-2018, 07:44 AM
Hello everyone! Lately I've been dealing with a difficult situation, and before escalating it, I wanted to get some input from some other glassblowers to basically make sure I'm not being the asshole here. In spirit of protecting the involved parties, please consider this HYPOTHETICAL situation below.
You are cruising FB one day....and you see an awesome lathe, you've been saving up for almost 2 years to get this exact lathe, and someone has one, freshly refurbished from Litton. The person selling it just wants it gone, and they are selling it for a really cheap deal. If it matters, they inherited it for free somehow, so they have no money into it, and they don't want to move it, or use it. You make a comment on the post endorsing the deal to others, because you know it's a good deal. No one seems interested.
The person sends you a message, and offers it to you for half of what they were asking originally (which was a good deal), because you are interested and they want it sold TODAY. They tell you initially that they can arrange shipping, and have already reached out to a company, but that you will be responsible for paying the shipping. You check your finances, and because it's such a good deal...you actually have enough saved! Well..almost enough, but you can stretch yourself SUPER thin to make it happen, so you do. The lathe comes with 2 brand new scroll chucks, and everything else you will need. There is even a picture of the chucks on the for sale post, separate from the lathe. When you tell the seller you can manage the sale, they remind you that chucks are also involved. You are ecstatic. You pay for the lathe the same day (Paypal, NOT friends and family).
You are waiting to hear back from the shipping company, and also spend a day pricing other shipping options. The problem you run into, is that the shipper is in a different state and you can't find a shipping company who can go and pick up the item and crate it and ship it, and the seller can't crate the item. You accept that you will likely have to pay the shipping company the shipper already found, and that even if it's a grand or more, this is probably the easiest option.
Eventually, the seller lets you know that their shipper is not able to ship this item. Remember...you have already paid, and you REALLY want the item. The seller explains that they are handling an estate, and that's where this lathe has come from. They explain that they will be flying home, away from the estate, and that if you find/arrange shipping, there is a neighbor who has access to the home where the garage and chucks are, and has agreed to let the movers in, as long as we let the seller know when the movers will be there so she can let the neighbor know.
You start looking for other options, and realize you have a local friend who is from the area where the lathe is located! Score! So, this person hooks you up with one of their friends, who actually owns a "do it all" handyman style business. They are more than willing to go get a moving truck, go get your item, drive it to your state, and be flown home, as long as you pay for all of it. They are actually excited, because they can see their childhood friend who now lives local to you!
You contact the seller and let them know. They remind you that as long as you let them know when the movers will come, they will make sure the neighbor can be there to let the movers in. You tell the seller that You have to wait a week for your mover to get time off work and arrange the trip. You also tell the seller that you are traveling for an event for a week, and are aiming to have the mover do the job the following week. They tell you that the lathe is the only item left at the estate home, and it's safe/fine as long as you are working on getting it. The mover gets the time off, but almost has to move the job, because of a SERIOUS hurricane that fucks up that entire portion of the country. You let the seller know, and they are fine. You tell the seller that the movers will come in two weeks, and you tell the seller the exact time and day they can be expected. The seller says they will let the neighbor know.
While you are at said glass event (remote location, with spotty service and internet, which you had warned the seller could be an issue before leaving), the mover arrives for the item. At the designated time and place, they can't get ahold of the neighbor. You go back through your texts and realize you were never given the neighbors info. You always write down important info on a legal pad when you are on the phone, so you check that...there's info about everything else you talked about, but no contact info for the neighbor. You are trying to reach the seller, with the movers waiting at the location. The plan was to load the truck, and make a 17 hour drive in one shot, through the hurricane, but now this is costing time. You finally get ahold of the seller and get the neighbors info. The seller becomes very nasty and tells you that they already gave you the neighbors info in a text, and they told you it was your job to contact the neighbor. You request multiple times for them to show you where they sent you the info, and they can't / won't.
The mover calls the neighbor, and they are A. At work, and B. Pissed off because NO ONE ever mentioned ANYTHING to them about this. They don't know they are representing the seller, or letting movers in, or that there's an item being sold...they literally know NOTHING of the situation. They leave work to come home to let the movers in, but it takes another hour or two. Your mover is pissed because it's taken so long, and they had trouble reaching you because you were in a remote location. The mover has trouble getting the lathe loaded, but finally manages. The mover doesn't see the chucks, so they ask where the chucks are. They are told that there are no chucks, and there are no other items at the house. The mover makes a quick walk through of the house, and doesn't see anything else. They also are not glassblowers, and only really know what they are there to get, and what they are supposed to do with it. They load the truck, and drive it to you.
By the time the mover arrives with the truck, you are home from your vacation. They open the truck, and you start unloading the lathe. You suddenly realize you don't see the chucks anywhere, so you ask the mover about it. They explain that they weren't there, that they were told there were no chucks, and that they even did a quick walkthrough and didn't see them. They also charge you a 20% fee because they had to wait hours to get let in, and things were not as agreed.
You contact the seller about the chucks, and the movers fee caused by their negligence. They tell you that the chucks were on the back porch, and that they told you multiple times through text that they were there. They tell you that they gave you the neighbors info through text, and they told you that YOU were responsible for contacting the neighbor and arranging the pickup with them. You request 3 different times for them to show you where they EVER told you either thing, and they won't / cant. (Obviously you go back and look to make sure you are not wrong.) You are polite with the seller even though they are very nasty and accusatory. You explain to them that you just want an amicable agreement because A. You are not responsible for arranging their end of your deal. B. You are not responsible for arranging their representation for their end of the deal, C. It's unreasonable to expect you to arrange with the neighbor when you were never given their information and the seller told you twice that they would do that if you gave them the time, which you did 2 weeks ahead of time, and D. The additional moving fee was incurred from their negligence and E. The lathe is unusable without chucks, and chucks are expensive, so now you basically have to buy chucks to be able to use a machine sold to you as "ready to use" (Specifically a selling point in the listing). Not only is the seller nasty, they won't address any of your direct concerns and ultimately tell you that because they gave you such a good deal on the lathe, you should be happy, chucks or not, and if you are unhappy with the deal, you should sell the lathe. The seller says that the movers should have seen the chucks on the back porch, and they are not responsible if the movers didn't find them.
THANKS FOR READING THIS FAR...so my view is, if the movers show up, they are just there to do the job they are paid for. if they are told "there are no chucks" and they STILL look for them and don't find them, how can they be blamed? If you schedule a pickup with UPS, and it's for 7 boxes...UPS shows up, finds 6 boxes, asks the person at the location why a box doesn't seem to be here, and the person says that is all the boxes....the UPS guy isn't going to argue or search the premises...so why would that be expected here? Am i being unreasonable for demanding what we agreed to? If the seller is nasty, refuses to address my concerns, and ultimately just stops responding to emails and phone calls, would I be wrong to escalate a paypal dispute? Before I get really hard lined about this, i wanted some input. The "lathe" was a great deal, and I admit that, but regardless of how good the deal was, i feel entitled to everything we agreed to. The lathe was specifically marked "ready to use" and it isn't because there are no chucks...so does it make a difference that it was a good deal? What if buying chucks puts you within 10% of full retail value of the lathe, would that invalidate the sellers argument? Is the sellers argument valid anyway, given the fact that the deal is, what the deal is?
Thanks for your input everyone!
You are cruising FB one day....and you see an awesome lathe, you've been saving up for almost 2 years to get this exact lathe, and someone has one, freshly refurbished from Litton. The person selling it just wants it gone, and they are selling it for a really cheap deal. If it matters, they inherited it for free somehow, so they have no money into it, and they don't want to move it, or use it. You make a comment on the post endorsing the deal to others, because you know it's a good deal. No one seems interested.
The person sends you a message, and offers it to you for half of what they were asking originally (which was a good deal), because you are interested and they want it sold TODAY. They tell you initially that they can arrange shipping, and have already reached out to a company, but that you will be responsible for paying the shipping. You check your finances, and because it's such a good deal...you actually have enough saved! Well..almost enough, but you can stretch yourself SUPER thin to make it happen, so you do. The lathe comes with 2 brand new scroll chucks, and everything else you will need. There is even a picture of the chucks on the for sale post, separate from the lathe. When you tell the seller you can manage the sale, they remind you that chucks are also involved. You are ecstatic. You pay for the lathe the same day (Paypal, NOT friends and family).
You are waiting to hear back from the shipping company, and also spend a day pricing other shipping options. The problem you run into, is that the shipper is in a different state and you can't find a shipping company who can go and pick up the item and crate it and ship it, and the seller can't crate the item. You accept that you will likely have to pay the shipping company the shipper already found, and that even if it's a grand or more, this is probably the easiest option.
Eventually, the seller lets you know that their shipper is not able to ship this item. Remember...you have already paid, and you REALLY want the item. The seller explains that they are handling an estate, and that's where this lathe has come from. They explain that they will be flying home, away from the estate, and that if you find/arrange shipping, there is a neighbor who has access to the home where the garage and chucks are, and has agreed to let the movers in, as long as we let the seller know when the movers will be there so she can let the neighbor know.
You start looking for other options, and realize you have a local friend who is from the area where the lathe is located! Score! So, this person hooks you up with one of their friends, who actually owns a "do it all" handyman style business. They are more than willing to go get a moving truck, go get your item, drive it to your state, and be flown home, as long as you pay for all of it. They are actually excited, because they can see their childhood friend who now lives local to you!
You contact the seller and let them know. They remind you that as long as you let them know when the movers will come, they will make sure the neighbor can be there to let the movers in. You tell the seller that You have to wait a week for your mover to get time off work and arrange the trip. You also tell the seller that you are traveling for an event for a week, and are aiming to have the mover do the job the following week. They tell you that the lathe is the only item left at the estate home, and it's safe/fine as long as you are working on getting it. The mover gets the time off, but almost has to move the job, because of a SERIOUS hurricane that fucks up that entire portion of the country. You let the seller know, and they are fine. You tell the seller that the movers will come in two weeks, and you tell the seller the exact time and day they can be expected. The seller says they will let the neighbor know.
While you are at said glass event (remote location, with spotty service and internet, which you had warned the seller could be an issue before leaving), the mover arrives for the item. At the designated time and place, they can't get ahold of the neighbor. You go back through your texts and realize you were never given the neighbors info. You always write down important info on a legal pad when you are on the phone, so you check that...there's info about everything else you talked about, but no contact info for the neighbor. You are trying to reach the seller, with the movers waiting at the location. The plan was to load the truck, and make a 17 hour drive in one shot, through the hurricane, but now this is costing time. You finally get ahold of the seller and get the neighbors info. The seller becomes very nasty and tells you that they already gave you the neighbors info in a text, and they told you it was your job to contact the neighbor. You request multiple times for them to show you where they sent you the info, and they can't / won't.
The mover calls the neighbor, and they are A. At work, and B. Pissed off because NO ONE ever mentioned ANYTHING to them about this. They don't know they are representing the seller, or letting movers in, or that there's an item being sold...they literally know NOTHING of the situation. They leave work to come home to let the movers in, but it takes another hour or two. Your mover is pissed because it's taken so long, and they had trouble reaching you because you were in a remote location. The mover has trouble getting the lathe loaded, but finally manages. The mover doesn't see the chucks, so they ask where the chucks are. They are told that there are no chucks, and there are no other items at the house. The mover makes a quick walk through of the house, and doesn't see anything else. They also are not glassblowers, and only really know what they are there to get, and what they are supposed to do with it. They load the truck, and drive it to you.
By the time the mover arrives with the truck, you are home from your vacation. They open the truck, and you start unloading the lathe. You suddenly realize you don't see the chucks anywhere, so you ask the mover about it. They explain that they weren't there, that they were told there were no chucks, and that they even did a quick walkthrough and didn't see them. They also charge you a 20% fee because they had to wait hours to get let in, and things were not as agreed.
You contact the seller about the chucks, and the movers fee caused by their negligence. They tell you that the chucks were on the back porch, and that they told you multiple times through text that they were there. They tell you that they gave you the neighbors info through text, and they told you that YOU were responsible for contacting the neighbor and arranging the pickup with them. You request 3 different times for them to show you where they EVER told you either thing, and they won't / cant. (Obviously you go back and look to make sure you are not wrong.) You are polite with the seller even though they are very nasty and accusatory. You explain to them that you just want an amicable agreement because A. You are not responsible for arranging their end of your deal. B. You are not responsible for arranging their representation for their end of the deal, C. It's unreasonable to expect you to arrange with the neighbor when you were never given their information and the seller told you twice that they would do that if you gave them the time, which you did 2 weeks ahead of time, and D. The additional moving fee was incurred from their negligence and E. The lathe is unusable without chucks, and chucks are expensive, so now you basically have to buy chucks to be able to use a machine sold to you as "ready to use" (Specifically a selling point in the listing). Not only is the seller nasty, they won't address any of your direct concerns and ultimately tell you that because they gave you such a good deal on the lathe, you should be happy, chucks or not, and if you are unhappy with the deal, you should sell the lathe. The seller says that the movers should have seen the chucks on the back porch, and they are not responsible if the movers didn't find them.
THANKS FOR READING THIS FAR...so my view is, if the movers show up, they are just there to do the job they are paid for. if they are told "there are no chucks" and they STILL look for them and don't find them, how can they be blamed? If you schedule a pickup with UPS, and it's for 7 boxes...UPS shows up, finds 6 boxes, asks the person at the location why a box doesn't seem to be here, and the person says that is all the boxes....the UPS guy isn't going to argue or search the premises...so why would that be expected here? Am i being unreasonable for demanding what we agreed to? If the seller is nasty, refuses to address my concerns, and ultimately just stops responding to emails and phone calls, would I be wrong to escalate a paypal dispute? Before I get really hard lined about this, i wanted some input. The "lathe" was a great deal, and I admit that, but regardless of how good the deal was, i feel entitled to everything we agreed to. The lathe was specifically marked "ready to use" and it isn't because there are no chucks...so does it make a difference that it was a good deal? What if buying chucks puts you within 10% of full retail value of the lathe, would that invalidate the sellers argument? Is the sellers argument valid anyway, given the fact that the deal is, what the deal is?
Thanks for your input everyone!