My new bench/studio [Archive] - The Melting Pot - Where All Glass Addicts Melt Together

Meerkat

11-09-2006, 09:56 PM

Just got done putting togeather my new bench (http://photos.meerkatboy.net/Studio-Toowoomba) after having moved, nothing fancy, its in the garage, but I am glad to finally have it done so I have a place to work. I had to build the ventilation system from odd and end parts at the hardware store as my budget is low (as in broke).

TorchedGlass

11-09-2006, 10:46 PM

You might want to reconsider your ventilation. That fan is not designed to be pusing air through ducting. Another inexpensive option is to install an attic fan directly in the window. It may look ghetto but it will be pulling a lot more air than your current setup. And can deal with the heat from the torch.

Meerkat

11-09-2006, 11:11 PM

the problem there is that the bench has to be offset from the window due to the layout of the garage and other things, and from every setup I have seen, its best to have your fan right behind your torch, no ? So I need to run ducting, and this was the fan I was using in my previous setup back when I was able to have a window right behind my bench, and money is a big issue, I know it is said that you can find blower fans for free from A/C places from old junk systems, and I may do that, but this is what I built for now to get me up and running.

It does suck air and I can feel it coming out the other end of the ducting, I also based this on the setup that my freinds slinger and hippo have for their bench, except they have side walls to direct more of an airflow, which is something I may do as well in the future

skip

11-10-2006, 03:02 AM

LoneWolfandSon

11-10-2006, 05:19 AM

hey meerkat,

i like the new setup. i do have a extra squriull (sp) cage fan that i am not using. you said your broke but have anything to trade and you can have it. let me know if you want it.

jello

11-10-2006, 11:45 AM

Gibsons Glassworks

11-10-2006, 02:16 PM

hey man, yea ducting a fan of that side thru your reducer is going to cause some major backflow and mounting directly into the window or another system is going to work alot better for you, make sure to test your air flowage with an insence, watch the air move and remember your working with product that will kill you if your not carefull.

hit up that squirell cage, you wont regret it.

cheers

http://www.glasspipes.org/Img106731_the_new_shop_Img106731_IMG_186.asp

thats what i did, but now i have a hood around the fan, improved things major.

mer

11-10-2006, 02:39 PM

if you really want to test your ventalation set off a smoke bomb with the fans off and then when the room is full turn on the fan and see long it takes to clear the whole room. that was a suggestion i got from henry grimmet at alchemy.

n3rd

11-10-2006, 03:09 PM

smoke bomb test, i love it!

seriously tho, i'm going through the same process, putting together a studio in the garage.

i'll fill the garage with a different brand of smoke tho.... ;)

Greymatter Glass

11-10-2006, 03:29 PM

yeah, the smoke bomb test is way better than the strip os tissue test, especially for large studios.

I've always prefered white sage smoke.... easier on the lungs and eyes, smells better, and doesn't stain artwork on the walls.

As for your set up... I really don't think it's satisfactory... the ducting is too long and too skinny for the size fan you have, you're probably not pushing more than a couple hundred cubic feet per minute through that duct.

I do like your plenum design, you score points for inventiveness, but the application doesn't have good physics.

Probably your best bet for now would be to mount a single large fan in the window, and put an adjustable louver on the inside to direct suction towards your torch. You don't need to stand directly infront of a big fan with a hurricane force wind hitting your back to be safe - clearing the entire rooms air rapidly should suffice for a single torch set up. I would say the 3 most important things to keep in mind are:

1. Makeup air
2. Direction of flow
3. laminar flow

Putting a big fan infront of you doesn't really help for 1 & 3. in fact, most benches I have been on, or seen, that have a fan in front of the torch kills flame performance because of poor laminar flow due to turbulance, mostly caused by distance and lack of a plenum. If you have a big fan whipping air in from all around you you get horrible turbulence that makes delicate work almost impossible, and screws with your flame chemistry. You want a nice laminar flow of air, a smooth consistant dlow of air in one direction.

Makeup air is also vitally important. Without enough in comming air you'll wind up pulling air in through house vents if your studio is open to the house. This can make toilets overflow, furnaces / heaters go out, and worst of all can pull carbon monoxide into the house. If you're in a garage open the garage door about 3 feet and you'll probably be fine. A fan to assist incomming air will also help improve efficiency of your exhaust fan.

and of course direction of flow is obvious.... but if you need help, I know some great men in white coats who could assist you.

anyways... stick the fan in the window without ducting and see if that helps clear the room better. Eventually you're going to want to rig up a real ventilation set up, but if this is temporary, or funds are tight just do what you can as you can.

-Doug

Snurf

11-11-2006, 11:47 AM

yep toss that fan in the window....a squril cage fan on a dimmer swich would be even better

Dale M.

11-11-2006, 07:44 PM

I have to agree with all the others on the ventilation not being adequate....

You need to consider at least a 100-125cfm blower for each square foot of hood opening and your ducting needs to be at least 8 inches in diameter and flex duct is the poorest type of duct (resistance to flow) that you can possible use....

Trying to push air through a duct like you are trying is like trying to push a rope..... You need fan othe other end of "hood" to suck the air through....

You also need to switch to a squirrel cage type blower and dump the blade type fan....

Dale

Greymatter Glass

11-12-2006, 12:53 AM

Nothing wrong with an axial fan (blade type), as long as it's made for exhaust/ventilation and set up right. We run our ventilation on a 10,000 cfm direct drive axial fan designed for clearing out warehouses and barns. Works great for 4 stations and a large (8x12) hood.

On any ventilation system important factors are diameter of ducting, length of ducting, and how striaght the duct is. if you have to have turns do it gradually, no hard 90s. There are calculations to figure out what size plenum to make, and how to estimate static pressure (or you can hire an hvac guy for $500 to give you an exact number).

Anyways, not knocking squirrel cage fans.... they're great, but they're not the only option.

Next ventilation setup I build is using turbine exhaust fans. 30,000 cfm a pop, looks like a jet engine on end. Probably only need one, but I think I got a line on several of them for a good deal from a surplus dealer. That and some beefy 24" duct work should do the trick nicely.

-Doug

Meerkat

11-12-2006, 12:57 AM

Slinger is ducting a hampton bay fan? I have seen his set up before and that wasn't the case then.

Those fans are not made to push air through duct especially duct that small. For your own safety and peice of mind WORK on getting a better situation going there.

I would suggest raising your bench a foot or so. Work standing up. the fan can be in the window then and you will be moving plenty of air. That wouldn't cost more than a few bucks. what you have now is really bad. and it will probably burn that fan out.

What is hampton bay ? I just went out and bought an all metal consruction fan, I have been using it for almost 2 years. I was just at hippos and I used to have my torch on their spare bench when I lived in Vancouver and I don't know what brand they had, but behind each torch was a round metal fan that looked very similar to what I have (whic is why I bought what I have, because I wanted to duplicate their set up). Instead of ducting though, they have the fans sucking into an boarded off area behind the benches and out through a window at the far end.

I do work standing standing up, if I rose my bench it would be uncomfortable, I am 6 foot and the torch sits at just under my chest level. I also based my torch height and bench height on the benches at slinger and hippos.

skip

11-12-2006, 12:58 AM

Meerkat

11-12-2006, 12:59 AM

hey meerkat,

i like the new setup. i do have a extra squriull (sp) cage fan that i am not using. you said your broke but have anything to trade and you can have it. let me know if you want it.

Thanks, unfortunetly shipping to australia would be really expensive unless it was sent slow and took a couple months to get it here, can you let me know the appx weight and dimensions and I will see how much it will cost to ship

Meerkat

11-12-2006, 01:28 AM

Probably your best bet for now would be to mount a single large fan in the window, and put an adjustable louver on the inside to direct suction towards your torch. You don't need to stand directly infront of a big fan with a hurricane force wind hitting your back to be safe - clearing the entire rooms air rapidly should suffice for a single torch set up. I would say the 3 most important things to keep in mind are:

1. Makeup air
2. Direction of flow
3. laminar flow

Makeup air is also vitally important. Without enough in comming air you'll wind up pulling air in through house vents if your studio is open to the house. This can make toilets overflow, furnaces / heaters go out, and worst of all can pull carbon monoxide into the house. If you're in a garage open the garage door about 3 feet and you'll probably be fine. A fan to assist incomming air will also help improve efficiency of your exhaust fan.
-Doug

What exactly is laminar flow ? As for makeup air, I always open the garage door all the way, there is actualyl a door on each side of the garage, so I can choose which direction I want the makeup air to come from. So there is lots of makeup air and none of it is going back into the house.

rather than take the fan out of my sheet metal backing on my bench, could I just add a second fan, like a squirrel cage fan at the window ? I just really put a lot of time and work into that setup and am not lookng forward to having to rip it all down based on what others are saying on here (not that I dont appreciate the advice and feedback).

Greymatter Glass

11-12-2006, 12:33 PM

The main problem on your set up as it is now is that the ductingis just way too small.

laminar flow is the opposite of turbulent flow. Laminar means the air is all flowing in one direction smoothly without much flutter or turbulence.

You want laminar flow because 1) it doesn't mess with your torch and push the flame around and 2) because the air moves more efficiently without as much resistance from turbulence.

Those ridges on the flex-duct will ruin the efficiency of the system, so if you want more air you need bigger duct, or smoother duct. Ideally both.

how much space is between the back of your bench and the window, btw?

Meerkat

11-12-2006, 07:01 PM

Hampton Bay is a brand of high velocity fans available at Home Depot. I have had one for 9 years or so and I just remember when Slinger told me he got his set up using the hampton bay. They are great fans and work in a window situation perfectly. they move a lot of air with no static pressure. They are rated at 9,000 cfm's . They are super quiet. They dont use much electricity compared to a 3/4 horse squirrel cage. They just aren't meant to be strained like the way you are using them.

I didn't realize the bench was at standing height already. I saw the misc006jpeg photo on your website of a differnent work bench that was lower and had a desk chair next to it. No way could you raise your bench if it is already made to stand at...

Well mine is not Hampton Bay, but its the same size, all metal, and we dont have Home Depot here, but I got it from a similar mega hardware type store, so its probably the same thing. So what your saying is my fan is probably ok, it just cant push the air through the small ducting, and that if I had larger ducting it would work, is that correct ?

I wanted larger ducting, but that was the biggest I could find at our home depot-esque store.

I do have have a chair next to my bench as there are sometimes when my back is kkilling me and I need to sit down, it looks like an office chair but is tall, your ass sits at about 3 feet high when sitting on it.

teh space between my bench and the wall with the window is about a 18 inches, I could pull it out futher, its just that i have very limited space in the garage and there is other stuff in there and my partner wants to be able to pull her car in to the garage when there is hail storms so I have to leave an area clear.

somberbear

11-12-2006, 07:22 PM

seriously .... you need to pull air not push it........

build a small window box.... mount the fan in the box blowing out.....
get some mega size ducting from some local HVAC place.... should be in most modern countres atleast.

use the box to mount every thing from......

most any fan you will have better luck with pulling then pushing.....just like any fluid.... air, water, hydrolic fluid , hot glass...

use the same hood but adapt ti for the bigger ducting... or just sit the ducting right there and aim your torch down it...

watch it.... with the aluminum ducting... your going to be causing some trouble with heat.... i give myself 3 feet ...

peace
rob

LoneWolfandSon

11-13-2006, 05:52 AM

mistahead

11-13-2006, 09:19 AM

yo meerkat, your getting some solid advice here bro, basically no matter how powerfull your fan is it cant push it through the small ducting, and 12 inch ducting which i beleive is the largest size you can get in cheaper flexi type ducting, isnt that cheap. i know it sucks to tear down your setup after you put so much time into it but its better than having shitty ventilation!! i have to do the same thing right now myself changing my station that i put quuite a bit of time into cause my bench is to tall and my venting just isnt efficient enough(sucks to much and its getting to cold). i bought that same fan type of fan this summer for a temporary setup and it is pretty powerful but you would have to definetly mount it right in the window with no ducting to work properly. sounds like slinger and hippo need some new venting too!!!=P
good luck mang!

dirtyglass

11-13-2006, 09:23 AM

I just ordered some 16 in flexible ducting to attach to my inline fan. I picked it up from Grainger industrial supply and was able to pick it up locally for a faster turn around time. I paid about 70 bucks for mine, but there is enough of it to set up 2 vents if i really wanted to. Ive also seen the same stuff on a few garden supply websites.

somberbear

11-13-2006, 10:15 AM

my problem right now is getting my new fan installed then i realized that the fan i have can exchange the air in my total shop in under 3 mins..... i got it for 50 bucks at habitate for humanity.... right now and during the summer i used it as a box fan on a set of dollies..... it would be enough to power 6 stations easy..... it is a pull based 6 blade steel fan..... im going to save it for my bigger shop at some point.... should be good....

right now im working on another short erm solution till then.... going to have to find a new fan.... going to look around and make it as portable as possible with the best stuff i can.... i hate working with out proper vent... if it tastes like a pool..... i feel bad... so no good.

btw granger is expencive.... you can normaly find that stuff alot cheaper....

peace
rob

Meerkat

11-13-2006, 03:38 PM

yo meerkat, your getting some solid advice here bro, basically no matter how powerfull your fan is it cant push it through the small ducting, and 12 inch ducting which i beleive is the largest size you can get in cheaper flexi type ducting, isnt that cheap.

Yeah I know I am getting solid advice and it is much appreciated, its just as you say I am bummed that I put all this work and money into it and have to tear it down and flush that money down the toilet. Plus I just want to start making things and it always seems like there is something else that needs to be done to my setup before I can.

Thanks

Meerkat

11-13-2006, 03:46 PM

hey meerkat,

man lowest price i saw was 550 just to ship it. i did check it for melbourne aust. i dont think it would matter where in aussie you are. if you find someone to ship at a decent rate you can still trade me. its probaly about 30 pounds 18x18x18.

good luck

I just checked with the US post service and they will ship it in 10 days for $150 USD, so thats much better, who were you looking with UPS ? I dont have $150 right now though, but I hope to have some spending cash in the near future, so I will stay in touch, although first I am going to see if I can get one locally for free at a HVAC shop.

Thanks

pacosaki

11-13-2006, 04:40 PM

I Agree with greymatter. Put the fan in the window and you should be good to go. Think of air and water being alike. If you had a water hose as big as the fan diameter filling that bucket and then going out the small duct, The bucket would overflow in a hurry. Don't restrict the fan! And if you get another fan and put it on your bench pointing to the window fan, you would have a double blown vent system!

Marble On!
Mike

LoneWolfandSon

11-13-2006, 05:35 PM

right on meerkat,

ups is who i looked under. maybe i checked a box where i shouldnt have. but the offer stands if you ever need it.