pulling points

I wish I was closer to the states sometimes. There's always shit goin on over there! Like the AGI ... I'd be able to whizz over and be back home in time for the flameworker's exhibition which opens on the auspicious date of 9 september 2008 :/
anyway, I checked out the agi site and saw that Roger Parramore is going to talk about the "evils of pulling points". He was in Australia at the start of this year but I missed him because I was busy watching sunsets and sunrises over Angkor Wat in Cambodia at that time. I heard from a couple of people who attended about Roger's techniques in regards to not pulling points etc.

so it got me thinking about pulling points and the two sides of the argument, and also wondering what the argument actually is. personally I pull points every day for almost everything I do and I don't feel one bit evil about it ... actually, I think it's the shizzle that allows me to do anything I want.

so what's the story with you guys? .... do you pull points or stick handles on or both?

points for prodo. Pretty sure everything else gets a handle......

I use both why be tied down with one tech. What if your out of blowtubes? Do you not work blowtubers?

point pulling is the most significant movement in american glassmaking history.

and it is badass.

i never pull points i prefer blowtubes.. and i don't run out of the the tubes... muahahahaha

I'm primarily pull points. I think that I can get a much faster rate of rotation with a narrow point... I use handles for heavier seal work and stuff, but 90% of my time I'm busting down tubes one point at a time...

I use points almost always. At this point (no pun intended) I have more confidence in pulling an almost perfectly straight point than I do in sealing a blowtube on well. As always, more practice is needed.

i used to just pull points but i desperately want roger to think i'm cool and i cried for a week when he told me how stupid i was being.

factory tubes are slightly out of true so i make my own blowtubes by pulling 12mm tubing down to 9.5mm, that way it's totally straight and i still get credit for a blowtube since i weld it on.

lmao ^^^^^^

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mermonkey

make my own blowtubes by pulling 12mm tubing down to 9.5mm

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heavy wall or standard?

I pull and work off points whenever possible.

Reason being I always get tied up with rubber tubing and I only use it as an absolute last resort.

Trying not to burn the tube whilst doing flip acrobatics in mid-production, spending time looking round for something that fits and then make sure the fucking thing doesn't drop off at a critical point, what a fuck around that is. Rubber tube is pants.

Points are badass, if it was good enough for the *Egyptians it's good enough for me. They never used rubber tubes either as they didn't have the technology to make the brass swivel.



*page 227, Book of the dead

your thinking blow hose swampy.....

good lord, swampy, everytime you post and I see that sig, I gotta go and pull a point ...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aussieflameworker

I gotta go and pull a point ...

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I usually always pull points for the sexual innuendos but I have blow tubes on hand tho, I mainly use them for colored tubing.

When Parramore gets wind of this thread all you point pullers are going to get scolded, including myself.

i love points, i just hate pulling them all the time. blowtubes i save for more of the heddie stuff. if i break one then i'll either attach the same handle or weld on a tube either way like roger says shut up and blow glass!! haha

I use both. Most prodo get points pulled... but the heavier the piece the more likely I'll weld on some 9.5

Headdies always get blowtubes welded on

Blow tubes. I don't make pipes or vessels. It's for marbles and pendants.

Blowtubes are for newbs, unless its a huge heady piece, then its 12.7 every time

I once heard Roger attribute global warming to pulling points. He really feels strongly about the superiority of his way and that is fine with me. Personally, I like points and rarely have any of the problems most often associated with them. Mine don't break because I know how to pull them strong.

When I teach, I teach points because that is what I use. When I get someone who has taken one of Roger's classes I tell them, "Try it my way. Try it his way. Use the way that suits you best." I don't pretend to know what the best way for anyone is.

Finally, the skills involved with pulling points are the very same skills... heating, timing, rhythm, and balance... that are present in every single tubing technique you will ever use. Learn to pull points and you learn it all in that one technique, even if you decide not to use them in your everyday work.

Just my 2 cents.

I use both... Big stuff usually gets a blowtube, and smaller stuff get's points pulled...


Swampy your sig is the BOMB!!

Aloha!

I use points for most of my stuff.....

i used points almost exclusively for the first several years i blew glass, but in the last year or mebbe a lil more, i read a similar thread, complete with roger telling us we were going to hell for using points or some such......i realized that i felt very strongly about the issue, and wanted to argue for points, but had never really made much use of blowtubes.....but this seemed a little hypocritical to me....
so, since i was newly equipped with diamond shears that made it WORLDS easier to leave a clean, constricted, open end on a tube, i got some 12.7hvy and tried the blowtubes....
now i'm basically a convert, i didn't have trouble with my points breaking, even with heavy stuff, and i do still occasionally pull one for something, but in general, i find blowtubes faster (no waiting on points to cool, less glass to heat), and less wasteful (i use an inch of 12.7 for each piece i work instead of an inch of whatever larger tube i'm using....it adds up)
also, it's not as much work to end up with a LONG, thick, stable handle with blowtubes, which benefits me, as i work pipes off the end of a larger colored prep a lot when doing prodo...

in short, try both ways and decide what works for you....it's personal preference, but only a fool argues that his way is best without ever learning the other way.

$.02
-f

no points for me ever...well maybe once a year.

I dont do pipes though. Points are a waste of time and glass for me.

I am not anti points though like most point pullers are anti blowtubes.

I am anti blow hose though.

I am also anti glass screens.

fyi

i pull points for small prodo, but my 12mm heavy wall tube sure are nice for larger multi-section heavy stuff. I used blow hoses when i was working neon signs back in the day and that kicked ass, but Im not sure I could pull it off well with my boro work without getting all tangled lol. I could see how they would be righteous, especially when it comes to keeping the piece hot. I say if it works good for you, do it.

I use points on anything 38 or smaller unless i break it, I just cant pull a decent point at all on the 50x2.5 so i always blotube thoes..

i found threw production on inside out that blow tubes work better in my opinion.

my inside out is made on 50x5, when i pulled points i found that my end product was undesirable to me and my accounts, due to being irregular in length.
when you pull a point on something like bigger tubes your shoulder size on the point can vary, so when you blow out a bubble even tho you used as much tubing as you wanted heat gets forced radiantly into that shoulder area sometimes blowing it into your flare. in the end if you didnt notice it or re constrict it you either came up with too short or long of a pipe. you can achieve lots off a point and even do good about getting it close to the same, but in my opinion and working styles its not as efficient and time effective.

so i switched my prodo up to blow tubes. i constrict the approx. size of tube i want and snap it, leaving a perfect size hole for a flared blow tube. in seconds i have attached, cooled and re constricted a new piece for the next. i can do this faster than i can when making points now. now with the tubing on the blow tube i can blow out the tube and nothing else that i didn't want to, so in the end i have a end product of the exact same size as the next, which to me and my business is a necessity.

but also to rule out a technique or skill as unworthy is in the end a bad decision. there is always more than one way to do things, whether it be not as fast or effective i love knowing and finding out all ways to do things. in the end of all things the most well rounded worker always wins for himself and is much more wise in knowing.
the funny thing is is that i thought all goblet makers used double ended points and such, so to me to find out roger doesn't makes me feel excited to know that if you want to blow nice goblets you dont have to pull points, for me and my working styles as of late it fits better for me. but truthfully i like the way double ended points feel in the hand.

i think ive only pulled a hand full of points in the last year, the down side for less work is probably more glass, ive gone thru so many cases of 12 mm its ridiculous, but in retrospect thats a lot of wasted tube if i would have pulled it into points equaling less product. but it does suck because i have 100 pounds of scrap blow tubes that i cant use or want to recycle into something.

anyways random bored post cause its 98 degrees out, so no work till night fall.
peace.

Run that tech by me again where you 'constrict the approx. size of tube i want and snap it' please.

Swampy-
i cut all my tubes this way, i believe it makes things a lot quicker and easier. i started doing it cutting my tube prep up for reversal sections. i can prep out a whole tube for reversals pre lengthened in size before the project starts super quick. the advantage of this is that each time you break a section it leaves the same diameter whole in the length of stock following it.... so instead of re blowing out a whole all nice for a blow tube its already made, cutting time down significantly.

its a soft glass tech pretty much, by constricting down the tube creating stress you can willfully crack the spot perfectly clean every time, or in other cases pre-shape vessels and intricate maria work and such.
same idea as using diamond shears, but i dont have any and when most of the stuff we do is on blow tube and punty its all clumsy and foolish to grab diamond shears and constrict the point you want down because its well hot there and your break doesn't come out clean.

so what i do is have all my graphite out on the very edge of my work table, i get the section i want pre sized and heat it up like you would a point. take it to the edge of the graphite and apply pressure and watch it actually constrict in front of you till you get the diameter you want for you opening. wait till it cools down past red and apply pressure on the crack from both sides. i like to just take the tube then put the groove i just made back against the edge of the graphite surface and push. it should with time and practice break perfect every time.

they sell a thing called a v-marver to do this same thing. in my shop i have my phantom and mirage set up hanging off the end of the table with a 6x6 graphite surface in between it and the table, i can take my tube down and marver it quick and or v-cut it just the same, no need for top mount graphite, diamond shears, or v-marver with my set up. plus i can put together projects with ackward connections and or long blow tubes etc.

oh and ive done this tech a ton with 44 mm solid and it snaps every time.

i use blowtubes for pipes with more than one section and points for anything that needs to be straight . i didn't use points or blow hoses until i met mr sizelove he uses a point for everything all those sick goblets seem easier to do with the small diameter of the point more rotations tubes are bigger and take more to spin. try making a foot with both tube and point and see wich works best points are for pros :o:

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Originally Posted by Bglass

....so what i do is have all my graphite out on the very edge of my work table, i get the section i want pre sized and heat it up like you would a point. take it to the edge of the graphite and apply pressure and watch it actually constrict in front of you till you get the diameter you want for you opening. wait till it cools down past red and apply pressure on the crack from both sides. i like to just take the tube then put the groove i just made back against the edge of the graphite surface and push. it should with time and practice break perfect every time.

they sell a thing called a v-marver to do this same thing. in my shop i have my phantom and mirage set up hanging off the end of the table with a 6x6 graphite surface in between it and the table, i can take my tube down and marver it quick and or v-cut it just the same, no need for top mount graphite, diamond shears, or v-marver with my set up. plus i can put together projects with ackward connections and or long blow tubes etc.

oh and ive done this tech a ton with 44 mm solid and it snaps every time.

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If you're gonna heat it up and let it cool, why not just pull points out of it? How would letting it cool and attatching a blow tube be any "more efficient"? You have all the extra prep of getting the blow tubes ready also.....

I pulled points for everything for about the first 3-4 months because I thought thats what I was "supposed to do".

Then I went back n' forth for a while and now I use 12hvy for pretty much everything. Mostly because rotating the smaller points cramps my hands up faster so I can pump out twice as much before needing a break.

Nodice, i dont think you have the right perspective i was trying to make.
let me explain, it takes a whole second to cut a blow tube off with a diamond score and flare the 12mm blowtube, you take that and butt it up to the opening you just constricted and attatch, the whole process takes about as much of time but less to pull down a point and rotate it out and wait till it cools to set up then you got to handle it. now then you got to re heat up another area to either pull that point off or re pull a double ender. this taking up to a couple minutes. you could always swipe a wet rag over the point to cool it.
but with my way you just attach a blow tube and your good to go. break up a colored tube prep this way, i think it will change your mind.
i used to pull hundreds of points for prep, even teach and pay people for it for it.
you need more heat in a 50x5 point to pull a strong even point than you do to just heat it up cool it and snap it.
your letting it cool for a matter of about 3 seconds, snap and you have a ready made point, in my mind you just by passed up a lot of time and effort, thus making it a more effiecient technique. less time and effort combined with making more product off a tube equals your question. dont knock it till you try it.
i think you imagined as much work as a point, but its really not.
i started doing this two years ago then the second dichroic video came out and i saw darby and j-lee doing it and i said to myself "sweet" a technique that i would have learned if i would have eventually payed for it.
to me no-matter what having it completely on axis and strong is a must.
some of the reversals i make equal out to 3 or four maybe even 5 0r six in one depending on how small you pull your tubes down and such. i need that strong shoulder to take the heat and not flop if there is any.
i said i started this due to inside out.
take a 3 inch 50x5 flare. blow it out and cover the entire surface area inside, every little space. now heat that till the work at the very top of the flare inside melts in almost flat. doing this is a pain in the ass because you start getting your point to hot twords the handle making it sometimes flop. this combined with the other stuff i stated about length and youll see why i choose to use a heavy wall blowtube thats well connected.
its easy to not try something new when your doing the same technique for ever, but its funny when a new one come along and your like "what was i doing before" i did the same thing and several others ive showed this too. i pulled points every day for 5 years till i came to my senses, sometimes stacking pyramids of 12 to 15 points at a time. now sense i do my way so quick i dont pre prep any points unless im feeling frisky.....

not saying everybody should switch, but i believe another technique in peoples belts will get them further quicker than they where doing before.
ive tried to tell my buddie thats been blowing for 15 years about this a year ago and just now he understand and is doing it. he just didnt get it till i showed him.

but well to each there own i guess eh????
thanks nodice and everybody else who takes time to read my rants and such.
now up to HempFest to have some fun and sell some glass.
peace all.

I tried your technique today Blake.

My V-tool is a brass job, lubed up with beeswax.
http://www.digzo.com/images/3ab/DSCF1154.jpg

Using 34mm tube, I kept getting devit either side of the notch. Maybe I was working it for too long.

I also found it difficult to rotate a large tube in this hand and a small tube in that hand. Well not difficult, I mean it was difficult to keep the smaller tube on centre and make a good weld.

Reason being both ends are open so I can't blow in to perfect the weld.

Sounds like a good way to work though and I can see where you're coming from.

Anything smaller then 32mm I think blow tubes would be a waste of time. (unless it's colored tubing of course) I normally pull the center of a quartered tube and get two point handles in less then 2min. I then constrict the middle of each point dividing each point into two individual pieces to work. This way i get 4 pipes from one pull. I couldn't imagine blow tubes being that fast, unless you are doing larger stuff, then i don't recommend splitting one point for two pieces, but you can still get two handles from one pull for the first half.

Aussie, I've worked with roger for a long time and have heard him describe me as the person who knows the most about his technique. I pretty much never pull points, and I can run down roger's reasons for you. I accepted roger as a teacher and to me that meant trusting him without question on technique. That being said my personal belief is that it is obvious that awesome glass can be made no matter tubes or points. and there is no riight or wrong, but there is good and bad. I do however believe the arguments against points are strong, although I am not a fundamentalist about it at. I've watched cesare, and mickelsen and many other people make awesome work, so for me to argue that points are lame would be silly and of course that is not what I'm trying to say.

anyway here they are
1 blowtube wont break and cut your hand or make you drop your piece
2 blowtube is as close to round/straight as you can get making for more even turning/even heat/even blowing
3 blowtube can be counterweighted easily. allows for potential to work bigger
4 blowtube allows you to work/blow the glass without having to move the whole piece to your mouth first/keeps maximum control of the piece while it's hot/you dont have to move it much and can see it well at all times
5 blowtube allows you to blow in/near the flame thus giving more control/access to different heats when working thin
6 blowtube is reusable/less trash
7 hands get used to turning the same size tubing all the time, thus get better and remove variables from the process. i.e. if you go bigger than usual you are still turning same size material rather than your hands having to turn a size point they are not used to, it is business as usual, allowing for greater possibility of success.

there are probably more I can think of if I try. But of course most of these reasons are extremely relevant to roger's work (large, thin, even etc.) and may be irrelevant to someone else.

hope this helps or is at least interesting

I use points for small items and blowtubes for large items. I do believe you should use a blow hose while using a blow tube. Since these tubes usually sit around the shop for awhile and are used over and over again they collect all types of nasty things in and on them that you really don't want to ingest IMO.

yeah swampy you have to perfect the tag and pull blow tube seal and that tech is a must for multi section color tube prodo work a must. You cant go wasting a inch of color tube just because you want a point. I was a point puller only tell I started in on some color tube now I do whatever best suits my application!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Swampy

I tried your technique today Blake.

My V-tool is a brass job, lubed up with beeswax.
http://www.digzo.com/images/3ab/DSCF1154.jpg

Using 34mm tube, I kept getting devit either side of the notch. Maybe I was working it for too long.

I also found it difficult to rotate a large tube in this hand and a small tube in that hand. Well not difficult, I mean it was difficult to keep the smaller tube on centre and make a good weld.

Reason being both ends are open so I can't blow in to perfect the weld.

Sounds like a good way to work though and I can see where you're coming from.

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V-tools : Isnt that the same as a marver sdge ? come on folks its the same i cant beleive how many peeps dont use all of the surfaces ! Just my .02cents

In my case the two pieces of my torch mounted marver have separated, so the nice available v there isn't really usable. Using the straight edge is an option, but using a V constricts it a little faster.

Though I've wondered why folks use a piece of brass cut into a v rather than just getting an L bracket and turning it up at 45 degree angle in a vice.

edit:..scratch that, the brass piece allows more clearance on either side of the v.

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Originally Posted by Krossin Studios

V-tools : Isnt that the same as a marver sdge

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No...