Opinion Poll:Do you think oxygen concentrators are the future?

**Julian** · 05-16-2012, 08:46 PM

(not counting delivery)

Oxygen gets trucked around in diesel semis... why would your reckoning of total pollution not count delivery?

**Greymatter Glass** · 05-16-2012, 09:52 PM

Well, couple reasons...

It's too wide a ranging variable - some oxygen goes a few miles, some goes 200+ miles... I guess I could add the caveat that the further you are from the point of production the more sense a concentrator would make if your primary concern is energy use and pollution...most people seem more concerned with total cost and convenience. There's really nothing "green" about being a glass blower.

But mainly because it's not part of this equation - it's not that it's not an issue and can just be ignored, but I am talking about production, not delivery.

The cost of oxygen is directly tied to the cost of the energy used to produce it, with little margin. I think it would be interesting to know what percentage of the total energy cost of getting oxygen to your torch is comprised of transportation. I'll ask someone at Airgas next time I'm there. I suspect it's a pretty major concern for suppliers, and they'll have some figures. What I don't think is that it's significant, my guess is something less than 1%.

Follow the rest if you want, it's more of a worksheet to get my head around the energy costs of production based on various web source, mostly http://www.uigi.com/new_cryo_plants.html

My hypothesis is that post production plant to consumer delivery costs of oxygen comprises less than 1% of the total cost to deliver.

here's what I know:

A 5,000 gallon (23.8 ton) delivery to Airgas comes 2 or 3 times a day, and travels about 20 miles each trip, so really 40 miles round trip... 80-120 miles a day, and probably burns about 12-16 gallons of diesel to do it (modern semis run 6-8 mpg diesel.)

Large industrial air sep / liquifaction plants consume 1 to 10 megawatts of power, and produce 100-900 tons of LOX per day.

5,000 gallons LOX is about 23.8 tons (1.141gm/cm^3), a smaller "large" plant would supply Airgas with their 48-70 tons of liquid a day for about 1 megawatt.

It takes about 3800 tons of coal to make 12000 megawatts or a bit over 3 tons coal per megawatt...

So large tank worth of liquid oxygen, 5,000 gallons, takes a ton or two of coal to produce.

last I checked 1 or 2 tons of coal is more pollution than 15 gallons of diesel fuel.

Please feel free to check my math, I used google calculator, windows calculator, wikipedia, ww.uigi.com and www.fibatech.com...

**Greymatter Glass** · 05-16-2012, 10:00 PM

My brain is fried, I know I missed a few things, I revisit this later....

suffice to say, making oxygen takes energy, in the US most of our energy comes from coal (about 44%) and the remainder is mostly oil and natural gas, a healthy portion is nuclear and hydro, and a fair but small amount is from a variety of renewable and non renewable sources.

Every time you turn on your torch you're burning coal unless you're 100% off the grid, and even then the torch, the rubber hoses, the tanks, the concentrators - all have a carbon footprint.

**G.L.McBead** · 05-16-2012, 11:29 PM

OWN not on
and i can't spell at all

**hngntuf** · 05-24-2012, 05:25 PM

Doug, the distance from a distributor to a welding supply has a direct impact on what oxygen costs, according to the oxy guy. This came up due to me bitching about the price about a month ago. My take on this is . . . They gonna charge whatever they want to and blame it on somebody else. I paid $3.20/gal today for fuel, I bet the price of oxy hasn't dropped a penny, but the next substantial increase in oil prices will AGAIN trigger a price increase in everything else. Something's just not right about that.

Stephen

**Julian** · 07-11-2012, 12:17 PM

You might also want to take into account the resources expended to create, maintain and operate a fleet of vehicles. I think there is more involved than fuel.

Originally Posted by Greymatter Glass

But mainly because it's not part of this equation - it's not that it's not an issue and can just be ignored, but I am talking about production, not delivery.

We're talking about total cost and efficiency to create something used in our process, but you want to discard an essential element of the resource expenditure required to use the material. Why would that make sense?

**d3rk** · 07-11-2012, 01:35 PM

Oxy cons may not be the standard as of yet, but given the many valid points above, they should be.

**Monkythrowpoop** · 07-13-2012, 07:47 AM

I don't know if it's the future, I started on a concentrator when I started blowing glass 10 years ago. Eventually I moved into other people's shops and we shared liquid, but now that it's just me again I'm back to a concentrator (this time with a Homefill). So far very minimal issues, and since I can't get oxygen delivered to me and the trip to go get some takes an hour out of my day every few days, it makes sense on a lot of levels. I think for small personal use you can't beat it, but if you're running multiple torches, LOX all the way.
Hell, I got my last concentrator off of craigslist for $100 and he even delivered it to my studio. That's worth having when you have orders to fill/projects to work on and it's 5:04 on Friday and you realize you only have 100 lbs. left in that tank. I hook the concentrator to my centerfire, tank to the outer, and work all weekend.

**Hefe** · 07-14-2012, 10:15 AM

can anyone help me figure out what I would need to run one 40mm herbie in my shop? is it even possible?

right now I have to get compressed tanks, I get 3 tanks at a time...replace them weekly.

is it possible at all for me to run with a concentrator instead?

i dont know anything about this stuff...thanks for any help you can offer!

**drew1492** · 07-14-2012, 10:41 AM

Originally Posted by glassantics

can anyone help me figure out what I would need to run one 40mm herbie in my shop? is it even possible?

right now I have to get compressed tanks, I get 3 tanks at a time...replace them weekly.

is it possible at all for me to run with a concentrator instead?

i dont know anything about this stuff...thanks for any help you can offer!

With enough money it would be. You would probably be better off with a homefill if you are only going through 3 tanks a week.

**ALIEN!** · 07-14-2012, 11:45 AM

I dunno about O2 concentrators, but once GA and NS start making colored quartz its all gonna be about hydrogen. And yes, there will be lots of humanity.

**Hefe** · 07-14-2012, 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by drew1492

With enough money it would be. You would probably be better off with a homefill if you are only going through 3 tanks a week.

I'm trying to find where i can even locate some of this equipment.
K tanks to start with..

really wish i could just get liquid here..

**Monkythrowpoop** · 07-15-2012, 07:33 AM

Search around on craigslist. I found an A tank (the size below a K) for $30. I had to spend another $35 getting it checked/into occasional circulation at my o2 supplier. Still, $65 isn't bad.
Do you have an air compressor for your herbie? I bet that between that and a concentrator you could run your torch. Maybe not full blast, but usable.

Ben

**Newt** · 07-15-2012, 01:20 PM

Lets see...its quieter than the AC...its quieter than the fish tank...its definitely quieter than the TV or stereo, so I dont know where you are getting 'loud' from. Besides, how do you think the big air companies get their O2? Bigger version of yer oxy con and homefill system.

**byron3** · 11-05-2013, 10:49 AM

Oxy Cons are just another step in the technology chain. While a few years ago PSA was the new kid on the block it is already becoming obsolete technology. Destined to go the way of the vinyl record, 8 track tape, cassette tape, ...................

Advanced Technology Fractionators, are the newest of machines for us to devote our attention to.

http://www.sequal.com/corp_tech_comparison.php

**Gibsons Glassworks** · 01-29-2014, 04:39 PM

i have an m 20, runs my lynx all day phantom i use a K tank. cost hee is huge for oxy 60$ a k 400 for a liquid. spent waaaay to much on buying gas i LOVE my oxy con. i wish i had 5 more. the homefill seems to work well to.

has anyone talked about water powerd torches? i dont know why we arent doing that.. gotta be reasons im sure.

but yeah if u can avoid giving money to the gas company all the better

**RyanBaker** · 01-30-2014, 03:15 AM

More effective homefills seems far more likely. Or if they can actually make a single concentrator powerful enough to run both flames on a mirage or delta mag and cost less than the average $20 fill. But i just dont see that happening.

**Bclark773** · 01-30-2014, 08:47 AM

I've got the hv30, purchased from Marc at high volume oxygen. All I have to say is I love the system every day!

**Robert Mickelsen** · 03-09-2014, 02:39 PM

My two cents. I agreed to test-drive a hi-volume system a year ago and I have to say, I will probably never go completely back to liquid. The system has saved me nearly $5000 in a single year with no maintenance and minimal issues. At that rate, at full retail, the system will pay for itself in less than two years.

Now that said, every person has to make up his own mind if this is right for them. We can argue environmental impact all day long, but what it really comes down to is economics. Where I live, Airgas has no appreciable competition so the price keeps going up and up. I am currently paying over $200 for a 180 dewar counting taxes, fees, delivery, rental, etc. I would normally use two/month so you can do the math. It makes perfect sense for me to use the Hi-Volume system for my everyday needs. I work alone on my Mag and rarely run the outer flame so it is really a mirage. When I have a guest collaborator, I rent a liquid and then return it when we are done. I keep several K tanks around as back-up and for my wife who makes beads in her own (separate) studio.

I know of several people who pay really cheap prices for their dewars. One guy I heard only pays $79!!! For him, generating your own makes less sense. It would take much longer to recoup his investment than for me.

There are pros and cons no matter how you do this. All you can do is look at the info and decide as best you can what is right for you. For me, the Hi-Volume system is amazing. I could not be happier. I voted that more and more people will switch to generation in the future, but I agree that there will always be a place for commercial suppliers of oxygen in our business.

**Simian** · 03-13-2014, 08:26 AM

Thanks for that Robert, how much did your entire oxy system run you? I am running Phantom and was considering liquid but the fire marshall say no since I am in a residential area. Looking for a homefill fix.