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Thread: GTT Sets the Record Straight

  1. #21
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    Default Re: GTT Sets the Record Straight

    Quote Originally Posted by CrassGlass View Post
    *facepalm*

    GTT should hire someone to help with PR and management on various aspects of their business. I love my Mirage, but good god, it's like the business is run by hillbillies.
    Well they probably don't want to hire on anyone new, and have them learn everything about the torch manufacturing process.. more specifically theirs.

    Also i don't think they care about PR at all... orders backed up for life, arguably the best torches on the market..

  2. #22
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    Default Re: GTT Sets the Record Straight

    Haha, if they put wally's name in the same order they put willys on the documents. His name would be Horn E. Wallace....

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  3. #23
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    Default Re: GTT Sets the Record Straight

    Quote Originally Posted by kbinkster View Post
    Maybe the better alternative would have been to dig up the old History of GTT thread and post the "notice of determination" docs on there. At least if someone wants to know what really happened, they can find out.
    Maybe the better alternative would be to just let it go. Legally it is bad to air this in public and continue to fan the flames.

  4. #24
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    Default Re: GTT Sets the Record Straight

    Yep a lot of people including myself wouldn't have seen this shit on facebook, until you came waving it in our faces.

    Id worry about making more torches and less about drama that no one cares about

  5. #25
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    Default Re: GTT Sets the Record Straight

    Quote Originally Posted by LarryC View Post
    Maybe the better alternative would be to just let it go. Legally it is bad to air this in public and continue to fan the flames.
    easy to say when its been bethlahems social media marketing strategy anytime the question is posed "GTT vs Beth" to answer it in ways kim has shown. Doing absolutely nothing while being spoken of like this is the antithesis of why this thread exists. people have posed the question and have the permission to know what happened from kim's side of the events.

    I have to wonder: Why are people so quick to snuff out discussion among the industries tool manufacturer? it seems like a sure fire way to continue making the same mistakes and halting progress. It doesn't seem like high school drama, as much as a controversy thats really been playing itself out for 25 years or so. To discard it as just drama that makes them look bad is simply nonsense, its a big issue and they feel people should be informed as much as they can be when the topic rears its head.

  6. #26
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    Default Re: GTT Sets the Record Straight

    being that Bethlehem and GTTs, look different, operate different, and produce particularly different flames idk wtf the beef could be.

    now, if they looked similar, and used similar technology, maybe some soft of "beef" is legit. but they don't. so i honestly don't understand this fiasco.
    You shouldn't be having sex for pleasure, only for reproduction.
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  7. #27
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    Default Re: GTT Sets the Record Straight

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Kooper View Post
    Haha, if they put wally's name in the same order they put willys on the documents. His name would be Horn E. Wallace....
    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Dan Kooper again.

    that made me chuckle
    You shouldn't be having sex for pleasure, only for reproduction.
    Thousands of people read my threads now. So Iím trying to not embarrass myself.

  8. #28
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    Default Re: GTT Sets the Record Straight

    Quote Originally Posted by RobertJ33 View Post
    easy to say when its been bethlahems social media marketing strategy anytime the question is posed "GTT vs Beth" to answer it in ways kim has shown. Doing absolutely nothing while being spoken of like this is the antithesis of why this thread exists. people have posed the question and have the permission to know what happened from kim's side of the events.

    I have to wonder: Why are people so quick to snuff out discussion among the industries tool manufacturer? it seems like a sure fire way to continue making the same mistakes and halting progress. It doesn't seem like high school drama, as much as a controversy thats really been playing itself out for 25 years or so. To discard it as just drama that makes them look bad is simply nonsense, its a big issue and they feel people should be informed as much as they can be when the topic rears its head.
    Thank you.
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  9. #29
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    Default Re: GTT Sets the Record Straight

    I agree with Doug and others... Who cares? Kimberley you need to see someone about your addiction to drama. What a useless thread.

  10. #30
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    Default Re: GTT Sets the Record Straight

    Interesting information, but probably the wrong place to put it. This just brings more drama to the center of the forum that is already saturated enough with it.

  11. #31
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    Default Re: GTT Sets the Record Straight

    Kimberly, may I suggest a new mantra:

    "Our torches are simply the best, fuck you sore losers"

    Chant this to yourself whenever the shit gets stirred up, it may alleviate some stress.

  12. #32
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    Default Re: GTT Sets the Record Straight

    Quote Originally Posted by RobertJ33 View Post

    I have to wonder: Why are people so quick to snuff out discussion among the industries tool manufacturer? it seems like a sure fire way to continue making the same mistakes and halting progress. It doesn't seem like high school drama, as much as a controversy thats really been playing itself out for 25 years or so. To discard it as just drama that makes them look bad is simply nonsense, its a big issue and they feel people should be informed as much as they can be when the topic rears its head.
    If I'm buying an autonomous car from Apple at some point, I care about the car, not/if they poached an engineer from Tesla or claim that a disgruntled engineer left Tesla then went to work from them or whatever. It's a footnote in their internal operations and mutual histories.

    I only care about the end product I'm purchasing. Now if it were a patent troll situation where I might get sued and someone start claiming I owe them a licensing fee for possessing a torch with that particular knob configuration, that would be a different story.
    Never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down. Never gonna run around, and desert you.

  13. #33
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    Default Re: GTT Sets the Record Straight

    Quote Originally Posted by menty666 View Post
    If I'm buying an autonomous car from Apple at some point, I care about the car, not/if they poached an engineer from Tesla or claim that a disgruntled engineer left Tesla then went to work from them or whatever. It's a footnote in their internal operations and mutual histories.

    I only care about the end product I'm purchasing. Now if it were a patent troll situation where I might get sued and someone start claiming I owe them a licensing fee for possessing a torch with that particular knob configuration, that would be a different story.
    You only care about the end product you are purchasing, cool story bro. Not everyone has made up there mind and the questions are raised.

    In reality the beth vs gtt debate is a common occurrence, no matter what electric car your trying to buy. For some reason the "feud" talk is always brought up in the same light. why fault GTT or Kim for addressing a controversy that's been made public as often as it has?

  14. #34
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    Default Re: GTT Sets the Record Straight

    Quote Originally Posted by RobertJ33 View Post
    You only care about the end product you are purchasing, cool story bro. Not everyone has made up there mind and the questions are raised.

    In reality the beth vs gtt debate is a common occurrence, no matter what electric car your trying to buy. For some reason the "feud" talk is always brought up in the same light. why fault GTT or Kim for addressing a controversy that's been made public as often as it has?
    Exactly.

    And it's awfully funny that when Kate has posted these things, no one else told her to stop bringing up old drama. She brought this up, not me. I'm simply speaking up about it and saying that here it is, this shows what happened, now stop spreading the false information and STOP the drama. It isn't going to stop as long as she feels that there's a chance someone is going to believe her. If the truth is readily available for people to see, then she's going to have a harder time convincing someone of something else. And, yes, while the origins of GTT may not matter to some of you, it does matter to others and their belief of what happened has affected their decision-making.
    ~Kimberly
    oxygen concentrators and Momka's borosilicate glass
    Check out my YouTube Channel for videos of torches running on concentrators. I'm working on more, so stay tuned and keep checking.

  15. #35
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    Default Re: GTT Sets the Record Straight

    The beth vs gtt debate, in the context of "which torch should I buy" is indeed pretty common. However, I've been reading this forum pretty regularly for over a year and as others have mentioned, this is the very first I'm hearing about any relationship between the founders of GTT and any past employment with bethlehem.

    This controversy, as far as I've seen, is not a common debate.

    This controversy, how it is presented, is not a rebuttal of wild claims being cast left and right, but rather is the airing of dirty laundry from 20 years ago that nobody cares about, nor should care about. "For years, people have reported... that Willy and Wally stole tech.. and quit". The original post starts right off with these weasel words (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_word) that don't really mean a thing - there is zero evidence of Bethlehem making any such claims presented in this post: Where did Kate say anything about them stealing tech? Or quitting (she said "left", not "quit", and you're putting words in her mouth)? I only see Kate being very polite, professional, and moreover, trying to provide useful advice to someone new, while at the same time going above and beyond by hinting at some of the ways small industry really works. She mentioned some former employees who "left" - but that doesn't at all imply a quitting or a firing (nor any other cause of termination, nor was there any indication that she was referring to the GTT founders) - it only implies a parting of ways. If you're reading more into that, it's only because you want there to be more there.

    Clearly, the actual rumor that could be damaging is that the GTT founders stole tech (specifically, GTT's triple mix tech) from Bethlehem. As someone else said, if there were any truth here, Beth would have sued GTT out of existance long ago. Since this is silly on its face, it's silly to get worked up about it.

    As the thread went on, kbinkster has reduced her claims of "proving the rumors are lies" down to just the fact that the GTT founders were laid off instead of quitting. Seriously, who cares? Not only did Kate not state or imply anything of the sort, it's entirely immaterial.

    Something that's been completely left out - kbinster, who are you in this drama? Why would you care? What is your relationship to GTT? I only know you as the distributor of an oxycon system that's priced way too high for my liking. Are you the "Kimberly Horn" who is defending GTT in your screenshots? Is binkster your maiden name and you married into GTT, or is horn your maiden name and one of GTT's founders is your father? Or are you (kim binkster) and kim horn completely different people? Are you a former or current employee of GTT? Such a disclaimer tends to be a credit to whomever is posting. If you're related to GTT, the fact that I've looked at your oxycon systems and didn't know there was any relationship between you and GTT seems concerning. (In fact, I thought it was bethlehem that was recently promoting your oxycon, so I'm a bit confused that you would be attacking them.) If Willy and Wally want some claims (that I haven't seen) to stop, why wouldn't they be posting and asking for them (whatever they are) to stop?

    This entire thread is kbinkster airing her dirty laundry. kbinkster is trying very hard to make Bethlehem look bad, coming off as the very definition of an internet drama queen, while Kate Burners, representing Bethlehem Burners, comes off looking very professional, kind, and helpful. kbinkster, I suggest you ask for this thread to be removed.

    ---

    My own disclaimer (and mini rant concerning beth versus gtt): I have no direct affiliation with GTT or Bethlehem burners. I own one torch, and it is a Bethlehem Alpha I got about a year ago. I would love to get a GTT Mirage, but I figure I'll wait out the patent so as to not bother deal with who knows how long of a wait time, fully expecting other companies to introduce triple mix torches when the design goes into the public domain, and likely with a better price.

    (Someone mentioned that GTT has a lifetime supply of backorders - not true, I both expect and hope that their backorders shrivel to zero right around when their patent expires. [2 or 3 years or so I think?] The low supply/high demand game they're playing to inflate profits, which makes it very difficult for me to become a customer, nevermind a happy customer, of theirs, isn't workable without an active patent. In another post I've defended GTT for this practice, because, well, that's business, and that's how patents are supposed to work - that doesn't mean I have to like how they're playing the game, I just like that they can [a la free market ideology and the whatnot]. They had 20 years (technically 17 years I think? I'm rounding up for effect and simplicity) to expand their business and build their brandname. If they weren't able to do away with extremely long wait times despite a 20 year monopoly, I'll happily spend my money elsewhere. Not to mention repeatedly reading that they'll always say '2 weeks' when you call; not being able to give an accurate timetable is somewhat absurd from a customer service point of view. Bethlehem's presentation and service has been nothing but professional, and I do hope they end up eating GTT's lunch.)

  16. #36
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    Default Re: GTT Sets the Record Straight

    (Maybe replace "a la free market ideology and the whatnot" with "a la my belief that patents do fuel innovation". Clearly a patent-provided monopoly is the exact opposite of a free market - oops!)

  17. #37
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    Default Re: GTT Sets the Record Straight

    To answer your question, I am Kimberly Horn, wife of Willy Horn. Kbinkster has been my screen name on this forum and its predecessor since 2002. And in all that time, yes, this has come up quite a bit. I see that you are new here.

    My post is straight forward and says what I mean. Terms like "left to start their own company" and "we've been burned" do indeed imply that they quit to form a competing company. I'm not even going to address the rest of your post, as it appears you have some issues regarding GTT that are not related to this thread or to me.
    ~Kimberly
    oxygen concentrators and Momka's borosilicate glass
    Check out my YouTube Channel for videos of torches running on concentrators. I'm working on more, so stay tuned and keep checking.

  18. #38
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    Default Re: GTT Sets the Record Straight

    Quote Originally Posted by RobertJ33 View Post
    easy to say when its been bethlahems social media marketing strategy anytime the question is posed "GTT vs Beth" to answer it in ways kim has shown. Doing absolutely nothing while being spoken of like this is the antithesis of why this thread exists. people have posed the question and have the permission to know what happened from kim's side of the events.

    I have to wonder: Why are people so quick to snuff out discussion among the industries tool manufacturer? it seems like a sure fire way to continue making the same mistakes and halting progress. It doesn't seem like high school drama, as much as a controversy thats really been playing itself out for 25 years or so. To discard it as just drama that makes them look bad is simply nonsense, its a big issue and they feel people should be informed as much as they can be when the topic rears its head.
    Did I miss the thread where anyone asked? Seems like it should have been among the "industries tool manufacturer" and not in public. This forum has always been the best source of info and open discussion about glassblowing. Threads like this just create drama that most of us see as a distraction to why we spend time here.

  19. #39
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    Default Re: GTT Sets the Record Straight

    Yawn.

    If gtt only put this kind of effort into actually meeting deadlines they give out, (Not "Hippy time" estimates )

    Ask any lampworker whats more irritating.

    1. Some old beef rumor that means nothing, effecting no one. It may sway some random "noob" asking a question on f.b. into liking/buying a beth? A noob who most likely knows nothing about lampworking.

    2.Trying to buy a gtt period. Trying to keep the money ready for when that call comes in "two weeks," "two months" whenever.

    When a "noob" asks about torch brand, are they going to be effected more by rumors? 0r the fact that they can't even buy the "other" brand torch.

    I will always be more upset by people lying to my face, or on the phone (shipping dates)
    VS..
    Some one who lied about some random story that they only head about second hand "whatever" from years ago.

    You ask anyone who runs a torch why they like brand "x" over brand "y" and they talk about physics of the torch... Ya know, describing REALITY. 0nly once have I heard about some rumor that created brand loyalty.

    I HAVE heard rumors about efficiency #'s , never have seen any proof that backed it up. "A cc and a mag use the same amount of 2 wide open." People call b.s. on that , then it just gets swept under the rug.

    Beth new design claims to be the most gas efficent on the market, So does gtt. That effects US all way more than this "important" topic.

  20. #40
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    Default Re: GTT Sets the Record Straight

    Regarding the flow rates: the original oxygen flow rate I was given for the Delta Mag was 80 CFH, which is the same as the CC. They were able to increase the pressures to get more out of the torch and the flow rate increased (it's now 115 CFH). There's nothing shady about that.
    ~Kimberly
    oxygen concentrators and Momka's borosilicate glass
    Check out my YouTube Channel for videos of torches running on concentrators. I'm working on more, so stay tuned and keep checking.

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