Bethlehem pm2d 4 stud

[unfunraygun]

I understand the "champ" mod. What is the propane mod this Pm2d hasn't had?

[BORO]

Who said natural gas only?

The only way to "plumb" a torch differently , would be to change the size of the internals. So it flows more at lower or higher pressure. Port size would be different. All pm2ds have the same size port holes as far as I'm aware.

Champ mod, propane mod, sane thing 2 names

PLEASE CORRECT ME IF IM MISTAKEN

[unfunraygun]

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[Oneiros]

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[W3S]

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[jr23]

Kate from Beth boro this unit is plumed to flow less 02

[jr23]

And I got this package ready to return to sender .

Item not as described is the way my rep said to send it .

I am ready and almost want to just send it back without my stuff .

Propane Beth's are plumed to run 4-5 lpm oxy

Bat gas 2 lpm oxy
Hey when the manufacture says we strongly advise you run nat gas or you will not get complete combustion .

But no need to beat a dead horse call Kate you whant this burner .

But it's ready to mail I want it gone

[jr23]

Dude call Kate this model and several others are not like Carly's that have same guts this one only flows out 2lpm oxy not 4-5 lpm that propane ones do .

This is news to me . This email is from Kate at Beth it was big news to me as I did not know Beth Plummed them for different flow rates yo .

[poundstone]

alldayjjay@msn.com pp addy? That is all I need to finish my said, just been waiting to make sure that is correct?

[jr23]

Yes and tell me how much so I can slip mon order in box .

I want to pay shipping saves us both a drive .

I would have sent tommorow whether you sent or not .

Most people are misunderstanding the champ mod it was invented originally for mobile a burners .

I have a old hantorch as such keeps yellow outer fire candles .

This unit is not the same it's got ports like the water cooled ones but not like the champion .

Yes you could block ports but do to internals bring set for 2 parts oxy for 1 part nattural gas .

And propane plumed torches pass 4-5 oxy per 1 part gas .

I know boro is like me and don't want to be wrong but if you think a pm2d is a pm2d buy this one and run next to a late model water cooled one with same ports as this .

It crushes it and does not build carbon .

Although at this point if others refuse to listen to manufacture. Buy this torch it's prob stil for sale .

No worries that's my addy.

[poundstone]

Payment sent and added note for previous shipping

[jr23]

Payment sent and added note for previous shipping

Payment received

[brads]

A little torch history. (And a personal opinion.)

The design of both the Carlisle CC and Bethlehem PM2D torches goes back to the 1940s or 50s. Back then, the vast majority of lampworkers were scientific glassblowers. And the vast majority of those worked in larger shops that had natural gas piped in. Very few scientific glassblowers used propane, except possibly for a few who worked at home on the side. So those torches were - not surprisingly - designed to work with natural gas and oxygen. This was pretty common knowledge when the vast majority of lampworkers were scientific glassblowers, up until 25 or 30 years ago when pipe and beadmaking started catching on in a big way and a lot of people with limited technical knowledge started lampworking.

Although a (much smaller) number of lampworkers at the time were doing artistic and/or novelty stuff exclusively, not many of those did tubing work. And the workhorse torch for those doing solids was the National 3A blowpipe, very often with a custom made, multi-hole tip. Being a premix torch, the 3A worked equally well with oxygen and either natural gas or propane. So it didn’t matter much which gas they were used with.

That wasn’t the case with the Carlisle CC and Bethlehem PM2D surface mix torches used by nearly all scientific glassblowers at the time (and still in very wide use). They worked substantially better on natural gas/oxy, since that’s what they were designed to use. Because they didn’t flow enough oxygen to completely burn the extra carbon that is contained in propane, its use in these would typically cause bright yellow candling and result in a rapid buildup of carbon as one worked. (Both propane and natural gas vary in composition a bit, but generally speaking the molecular formula for natural gas [methane] is CH4. LPG (commonly, although incorrectly, called just “propane”) is a varying mixture of propane (C3H8) and butane (C4H10). My personal experience with both torches indicates that CCs work a little better than pre-mod Bethlehems with propane. But neither one works great. (I haven't used a newer PM2D so can't give a valid opinion on those. However, Bethlehem did discontinue the model, so draw your own conclusions...)

So without getting any deeper into this, if you’re thinking about buying a Carlisle CC or Bethlehem PM2D torch, you’d better have access to natural gas for fuel. The vast majority of them work like shit when using propane. I know, since I have both a CC and a Beth Model A that just sit on a shelf now because I don’t have natural gas where I live. (I used to also have a PM2D Model B, as well.)

Personal opinion:
Not that it matters much, but my personal opinion is that if someone offers a torch for sale and doesn’t make any false claims about it - “works absolutely fantastic using dirty pond water as fuel” - then it is the buyer’s responsibility to know what he/she is buying. If you don’t know that a CC or PM2D isn’t a great propane torch, it isn’t the seller’s responsibility to tell you - especially these days when he might not even know that himself. But in that original “for sale” post, propane WAS mentioned. It specifically stated, “I planned to plug the ports to optimize it for propane, but never got around to it.” That should have at least been a clue that propane might not be the optimum fuel for this torch.

So it isn’t fair to blame the seller for your lack of knowledge. (Unless he obviously knows there’s a potential problem and intentionally keeps that information from you - which certainly doesn’t seem to be the case here.) Additionally, the PM2D literature that you linked to about this is for the factory water cooled PM2D, not the air cooled PM2D that you purchased. Even though this one has a homemade water cooling coil added.

As though everything mentioned above isn't confusing enough, Bethlehem's own literature about the PM2D WC (water cooled) that you linked to seems to be self-contradictory. From their literature:

"The Bethlehem PM2D WC Bench Burner was designed for use with gas and oxygen. Propane is the preferable gas, and is readily available from gas distributors."

From the same operating instructions flyer on PM2D WC:

"High carbon content fuels, like propane, will deposit carbon on the front face of the burner. Eventually, the gas holes will clog. Unless the carbon is cleaned away, the surface temperature of the burner face will get to [sic] hot. High burner front face temperatures will cause a rapid deterioration of the burner head and shorten the life of the burner."

So in the first quote they say that propane is the preferred fuel gas, but in the second they give a warning about potential damage to the torch when using it.

And the truly confusing quote from this same PM2D WC flyer, which seems to indicate that whoever wrote it didn't really have his/her shit together that day:

"Bench Burner Center Fire
The Bravo has two independent burners in one burner barrel. One center surface-mixing flame and one ring surface-mixing flame with each operated with a separate set of gas and oxygen valves. Due to this unique design, NEVER OPERATE THE OUTER RING BURNER WITHOUT SOME GAS AND OXYGEN GOING THROUGHT THE CENTER FIRE BURNER. Operating the Bravo with the outer ring burner only will cause a carbon build up over the center flame gas and oxygen ports."

Yeah, that's right. Info specifically about the Beth Bravo in the PM2D operating instructions. A little sloppy, at best. Even if that info is also generally valid for the PM2D, which it is, it indicates a less than careful authoring of those instructions.

So, getting back to my personal opinion, which I'll freely admit is essentially worthless. You’re giving poundstone shit for something that isn’t his fault. His original "for sale" post was clear and more detailed than most. The fact that you didn’t have enough background knowledge about Bethlehem torches to realize this one may not be a good choice for you wasn’t his fault. Although you should have done more homework before making the purchase, to a large extent I don’t really think it was your fault either. Bethlehem themselves should be a lot clearer on the differences in the PM2D torches they have produced in the past. And that info should be readily available on their website. (And I’m saying that as someone who is a fan of their torches, not as someone who hates them for any reason.)

Last - I see you've started another thread about this, jr23. Because unfunraygun specifically addressed a question to BoRo and me, I thought it was appropriate to post this here, instead of in the newer thread. If there's anything in my long-winded post you feel should also be in that other one for informational purposes, feel free to copy and repost it there. (Which may be best anyway, since we're off-topic in a sales thread.)

[Oneiros]

Should've posted in binary

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to brads again." Great info!

[LooseSeal Baller]

that's a golden post.

do you happen to know if carlisle cc started making their torches geared towards propane? if so what year or model number?

[brads]

that's a golden post.

do you happen to know if carlisle cc started making their torches geared towards propane? if so what year or model number?

Not that I know of, although a standard CC torch can have either one of two different diameter center fires, a 3mm or a 5mm (I think). I've heard unconfirmed rumors that the smaller centerfire works better with propane. If that's true, I doubt it's a lot better since the centerfire on a CC is premix.

[unfunraygun]

Carlisle CC's and Beth Pm2d's run like shit on propane? This is the most conusing thread. I have worked on many carlisles, and also quite a few Pm2d' s and they are fantastic torches to be run on propane. I would expect any torch I ordered to be capable of running propane unless it was highly detailed it was a ng torch.

[LooseSeal Baller]

do the ratios of pressure you run matter?

adding that compressed air should help?

if this is all fact. i find it funny that carlisle says on specifically that it can be used with propane, hydrogen, or natural gas...i've ran cc's on propane and never had any issues. they do build a little carbon, usually i just clean it off, and make sure not to let the face glow at all.

Now I want to hook it up to ng to see how it runs. A little cooler, less reducing

[LowTideGlass]

I was under the impression Carlisle #3 tips were designed for propane and #5 for natural gas. Here is an instruction sheet straight from Carlisle.

I would also disagree with saying that pm2ds or CC's run like shit on propane. I have run both with no problems. Maybe they run better on NG? I don't know, perhaps they do, but I certainly wouldn't say they run like shit on propane.

[brads]

Carlisle CC's and Beth Pm2d's run like shit on propane? This is the most conusing thread. I have worked on many carlisles, and also quite a few Pm2d' s and they are fantastic torches to be run on propane. I would expect any torch I ordered to be capable of running propane unless it was highly detailed it was a ng torch.

My definition of running like shit may be different than yours. If a torch won't easily give a clean, hot, even flame with no carbon buildup, then I consider it running like shit. And I didn't say ALL PM2Ds are this way. As was already stated in several posts above, the newer ones have been redesigned to better utilize propane as their fuel gas. I also mentioned that I haven't used a newer one so can't give a valid opinion on them. The older, unmodified ones most definitely do "run like shit" when using propane, by my standards at least.

As far as a standard CC - including my own - I've never seen one that ran as well on propane as natural gas - no matter which centerfire it had. (Although mine does have the larger #5 natural gas centerfire, which was intended for natural gas. So it shouldn't be a surprise that it doesn't run best on propane.) With the flame on, they tend to carbon up and the body gets even hotter than usual, which exacerbates the carbon issue. (Note the number of CCs that have aluminum cooling fins as a retro-fit.)

But once again, your mileage may vary. I'll admit I'm picky, and you may be perfectly happy with what I would consider a shitty flame. While a lot of people love the standard Carlisle CC, I've never been a big fan of them, even when running optimally on natural gas. But now we're getting into personal torch preferences rather than anything subjective, so I'll end it here. However, I do agree that the subject is a confusing minefield, both due to actual physical differences in various torch models, as well as those personal preferences.

And thanks to lowtide for posting that Carlisle document. Good info.