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Thread: Official looking for GTT thread!

  1. #61
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    Default Re: Official looking for GTT thread!

    Not mine, but a REALLY good price on a Mirage & foot pedal. Won't last:

    http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=285867

  2. #62
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    Default Re: Official looking for GTT thread!

    Hey all, wondering if there is a used Lynx around here that I can grab before I try and see if they have one new.

  3. #63

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    I want to upgrade to a GTT Phantom. Anyone have one they are willing to part with?

    Offering 1st born and left foot - O.B.O.



    Seriously though, cash ready. Private message me if you have one. Thanks.

  4. #64
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    Default Re: Official looking for GTT thread!

    Looking for a gtt bobcat and an oxy con. Let me know what you have!

  5. #65
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    Default Re: Official looking for GTT thread!

    wtb - 4 stud phantom or mirage

  6. #66

    Default Re: Official looking for GTT thread!

    Well, they might have some models on the self, but I've been waiting four months for my order. Obviously GTT feels they can control market. Trust me, technology catches everyone. Sooner or later there will be another favorite torch and people will move to that one.... Looking at other torches now myself. Think it's terrible customer service.

    Frank

  7. #67
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    Default Re: Official looking for GTT thread!

    its not a terrible marketing plan. control the supply. infinite demand. the problem is. there is only so much of the market you can capture right? at some point you will run into customers like yourself whom will buy a beth or cc. The issue with producing a ton of torches to meet the current demand... torches last forever basically. you saturate the market in no time.

    so by keeping the supply low ( assuming it is artificially kept low ) you keep the current owners of these torches from selling them as they wont be able to replace them quickly if they so choose to.

    Personally - if it was my company i would flood the market with the torches and setup a buy back program for refurbishment. more torches on the market would reduce the resale point to where they could likely buy them at a discount back. refurb and flip them back out. seems more sustainable in the long run to me - but you know what... if they sell enough to cover their day to day costs and are happy with that level of revenue... congrats to GTT.

    meantime i personally think its the best torch on the market and will wait for mine to come.

  8. #68
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    Default Re: Official looking for GTT thread!

    Well, see, they *can* control the market... that's what patents are for... until the patent expires... iirc, around the middle of next year... when hopefully beth eats their lunch.

    It's a tricky game in such a niche market, but waiting so long (and being strung along with "just 2 more weeks" for multiple months, as seems the oft-repeated story), is just ridiculous.

  9. #69
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    Default Re: Official looking for GTT thread!

    Quote Originally Posted by mattholimeau View Post
    Well, see, they *can* control the market... that's what patents are for... until the patent expires... iirc, around the middle of next year... when hopefully beth eats their lunch.

    It's a tricky game in such a niche market, but waiting so long (and being strung along with "just 2 more weeks" for multiple months, as seems the oft-repeated story), is just ridiculous.
    you cant actually think in this global market that us patents mean anything....

  10. #70
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    Default Re: Official looking for GTT thread!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackass Glass View Post
    its not a terrible marketing plan. control the supply. infinite demand. the problem is. there is only so much of the market you can capture right? at some point you will run into customers like yourself whom will buy a beth or cc. The issue with producing a ton of torches to meet the current demand... torches last forever basically. you saturate the market in no time.

    so by keeping the supply low ( assuming it is artificially kept low ) you keep the current owners of these torches from selling them as they wont be able to replace them quickly if they so choose to.

    Personally - if it was my company i would flood the market with the torches and setup a buy back program for refurbishment. more torches on the market would reduce the resale point to where they could likely buy them at a discount back. refurb and flip them back out. seems more sustainable in the long run to me - but you know what... if they sell enough to cover their day to day costs and are happy with that level of revenue... congrats to GTT.

    meantime i personally think its the best torch on the market and will wait for mine to come.
    Reminds me of what Harley Davidson did for so long. You had to put a deposit down and get on a waiting list and when your motorcycle got there, you had to buy it then or you lost your deposit. Then competitors came along that made similar motorcycles and not only drove the price down but there is no more waiting list. You can now walk into any Harley shop and find multiple motorcycles on the floor ready to buy.

    I love my GTT. The only thing I'd trade it for is a bigger GTT.

    But I'm anxious to see what competition does. Not only to them, but to also see what kind of torches everyone else is putting out. You know some of the bigger torch companies already have triple mix torches built and tested and sitting in a locked back room somewhere waiting until the day the patent expires.

  11. #71
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    Default Re: Official looking for GTT thread!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackass Glass View Post
    you cant actually think in this global market that us patents mean anything....
    In the GLOBAL market, you're right, patents are very hit-or-miss. You can buy knock offs of most popular American brands over seas much cheaper (and of various quality) than you can in the US because many countries do not enforce or even recognize American and other international patent schemes.

    In the US however patents are a very powerful tool to regulate trade and protect the economy. For proof look no further than the pharmaceutical industry - patented niche drugs can cost tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars per treatment in the US but overseas they can be had in generic form for <1% of their US patented price. The legal risk of importing patent infringing drugs into the US is huge, so huge that many of the largest makers will expressly forbid their sellers from even attempting it lest they face ever increased tariffs on their legal exports to the US.

    Other companies like Apple, Disney, Sony, Microsoft (seeing as trend here?) also very actively protect their patents from over seas companies attempting to sell them in the US. It happens, just look on aliexpress and dhgate for an endless list of suppliers... but try bringing in volume and you get caught, you will pay huge fines and possibly serve jail/prison time.

    In the case of GTT torches, it's such a small market that the cost of tooling up and producing them to the same quality standards as a GTT is too high to make the risks associated with illegal imports worth it - if you have such a machine shop and skilled labor to run it why not make guns, fishing reels, car parts, tools, or other items with a much larger demand and market share. That's not to say it hasn't been tried... years ago Wale started selling line of torches that, while not infringing on the patents per se, were visually very similar to the GTT torches, and there was an uproar about it. I don't know if consumer feedback or some legal maneuver forced the change in design I haven't followed it in years, but the "Warrior Apache" torch they sell now is what came of it, and it no longer looks almost exactly like a GTT lynx any more.

    Also, just because something is off patent doesn't mean you can make an exact copy of it, there are design protections like copyrights and trademarks that can protect the look and presentation of a product well past the expiration of the core patents... so yes, bethlahem could make a 3 valve mixing manifold based on the Hiemstra burner they improved upon to secure their patent (http://www.google.com/patents/US5803725) but they wouldn't be able to, nor want to, copy the look of it.

    There's also something to be said of how hard they are to make really... it's not a kit, and the patent isn't a step by step guide. The GTT torches aren't impossibly hard to figure out, but they're complex and well made, both are points that equate to high production costs. So when, as is inevitable, someone legally produces a "triple mix" torch ala GTT, I don't see it being sold with a HUGE decrease in price... consider that people are willing to pay top dollar now and wait years for a torch - why lower the price when you can just fill the demand?
    Doug Harroun
    Greymatter Glass
    Albuquerque, NM
    (505) 884-0318

    A̿̐͒ͥ̏̅͋ͤͮ́́̒͢͏̨͙̩̦͔̫̠̲̤ͅ ̑ͨ̎͆͐̉̍̐ͤͮͨ͐̇ͩͦ̏ͣ̚͏̷̶̭̝̠͓̞̱̭̫͙̜̮̫͔̤̱͕͢b̓̓ͭ̿̓ͥ̐̒͂͂ͧ ̡̓͋̐ͥ҉̧̹͎̺̳̩̬̘̯̮̜̼̻͝ͅē̵̹̯̦̟͔͊̓̔͗͊̀͆͗̀ͭͭ̀̇͋͋ͩ̓̓͞͞͞ ̘̰̘͈a̧̹͙͇̫̲̻̳̦̦͛͑͂̌̊́̌̂̅ͤ̿͠ͅų̷̶̡̺̤̳͐̂ͣ̋̀ͅͅt̍̀͋̽͗̚ ̶͎͎̳̤͈̘̞͕̣̲̣̼͙͎̬̪̜͎̯ͤ̃̈́ͬͧ͒͟͞͝͡iͪ̋̌̄̎ͪ́̚҉̶̰͎̣̥͉̙̘̬͝ ͍͈̻̻f̡̟̤̥̝̞̈̋ͧͮ̂ͣͬͨ͆͊̌̇ͨ̚͠͞u̵ͥͦ̑ͧ̆͂͐̊̏̍̋̓͗ͭͫ͆́̃͊͘̕ ̛̱̳͓̠͖̕ḹ̢̧̦̬̲̟̳̉ͯͫ̊̏ͪͫ͝ͅ ̵̺̫͙̗̦̠̯̞̫̪̩͐ͭͮ̏̓͒̏͊͋̚̚͘ͅḧ̨̛̭̼̘ͤͥ̿ͫ̊ͦͧͮͮ̀̓̔͌̉̓̀̀͡ ̺͚e̷̦̤̘̯͎̜͇͚͔̱̙͖ͪ͛ͤͮͬ͆͆̾̾͂̑͆̓͜ȧ̴̋ͨ͂ͣͬ̓̆͐̾̿̐̃̒͊͌́͝ ̷͇̮̙̗͉͍r̵̜̰̣̫͙̦̻̖͕͎̘̲̗̘ͦ̋̑̀̌̎̓ͭ̚͞tͨ̅̇͛ͫͫ̆ͪ̌͋ͩ̉ͯ͊͌̌ ̴̨̢̭͚̳̦͖̻̮̬̣̮̟͓͉̪͈̍ ̷̷̫̬͈͓̞͈̞̬̹̟̯͚̹͇̩̏͋ͬ̍͛̎̑̄̽ͦ̆̔̈́̀͆ͩ̓


    .

  12. #72
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    Default Re: Official looking for GTT thread!

    Quote Originally Posted by Greymatter Glass View Post
    In the GLOBAL market, you're right, patents are very hit-or-miss. You can buy knock offs of most popular American brands over seas much cheaper (and of various quality) than you can in the US because many countries do not enforce or even recognize American and other international patent schemes.

    In the US however patents are a very powerful tool to regulate trade and protect the economy. For proof look no further than the pharmaceutical industry - patented niche drugs can cost tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars per treatment in the US but overseas they can be had in generic form for <1% of their US patented price. The legal risk of importing patent infringing drugs into the US is huge, so huge that many of the largest makers will expressly forbid their sellers from even attempting it lest they face ever increased tariffs on their legal exports to the US.

    Other companies like Apple, Disney, Sony, Microsoft (seeing as trend here?) also very actively protect their patents from over seas companies attempting to sell them in the US. It happens, just look on aliexpress and dhgate for an endless list of suppliers... but try bringing in volume and you get caught, you will pay huge fines and possibly serve jail/prison time.

    In the case of GTT torches, it's such a small market that the cost of tooling up and producing them to the same quality standards as a GTT is too high to make the risks associated with illegal imports worth it - if you have such a machine shop and skilled labor to run it why not make guns, fishing reels, car parts, tools, or other items with a much larger demand and market share. That's not to say it hasn't been tried... years ago Wale started selling line of torches that, while not infringing on the patents per se, were visually very similar to the GTT torches, and there was an uproar about it. I don't know if consumer feedback or some legal maneuver forced the change in design I haven't followed it in years, but the "Warrior Apache" torch they sell now is what came of it, and it no longer looks almost exactly like a GTT lynx any more.

    Also, just because something is off patent doesn't mean you can make an exact copy of it, there are design protections like copyrights and trademarks that can protect the look and presentation of a product well past the expiration of the core patents... so yes, bethlahem could make a 3 valve mixing manifold based on the Hiemstra burner they improved upon to secure their patent (http://www.google.com/patents/US5803725) but they wouldn't be able to, nor want to, copy the look of it.

    There's also something to be said of how hard they are to make really... it's not a kit, and the patent isn't a step by step guide. The GTT torches aren't impossibly hard to figure out, but they're complex and well made, both are points that equate to high production costs. So when, as is inevitable, someone legally produces a "triple mix" torch ala GTT, I don't see it being sold with a HUGE decrease in price... consider that people are willing to pay top dollar now and wait years for a torch - why lower the price when you can just fill the demand?
    youre right, but this is a function of the market - not the patents. the patents do not protect shit. and the companies you list like apple etc.... you know what it costs to go to war on patents? and even then... they dont win. maybe in the states they win. maybe in the EU. but go to china. you can buy 30 different versions of the iphone. none made by apple.

    Patents are useless in todays market. This is a fact.

  13. #73
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    Default

    I still have my ninja. It's only six months old . Only selling it cause I have 3 gtt torches and am going to a kobuki with air

  14. #74
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    Default Re: Official looking for GTT thread!

    found a torch

    still on the market for a yellow jacket or lynx hand torch, and rock it pedal with bypass. but these would be considered after the main torch is purchased. might have to get cheaper hand torch...


    thanks in advance
    Last edited by Rvlt; 04-21-2016 at 04:11 PM.

  15. #75
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    Default Re: Official looking for GTT thread!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackass Glass View Post
    Patents are useless in todays market. This is a fact.
    No, that's an opinion, which in MY opinion is uninformed and cynical.

    In today's market patents are stronger than they ever have been. Yes, the cost to litigate high profile patent disputes IS exceedingly high but the vast majority of patent disputes are settled pre-trial in favor of the patent holder. In cases where one company's patent is struck down it's almost always because it infringes on a prior patent held by someone else, so either way a patent wins. Apple vs. Samsung has been going on in courts in a dozen countries for years now with billions of dollars on the line from both parties... whoever wins, the only REAL winners are the patent attorneys and the patent system itself.

    Now, if you're simply suggesting that the entire Intellectual Property system in the US is flawed and in need of significant reform I fully agree... it's far from perfect. It unfairly favors those with the most money to protect their assets, it punishes intellectual thinkers who come up with parallel concepts but don't have the legal acumen to protect their research, it limits the free and open exchange of critical technologies, it stymies progress in research, it results in sky high prices on medicines, etc... but those aren't really useless to the people who hold the patents.

    Also, I don't really care about what China does, or Bangladesh, or Pakistan, or Iran or anyone else who ignores US patents... they're going to do what they do, but they have a VERY hard time making inroads in the US with their products. Customs screens stuff coming in from countries known to be patent violators, every year at least a few big seizures make the national news, but every day there are smaller ones that add up. Still, it's like the drug war - they don't stop it all. There are little stores here that sell knock off electronics and pirated DVDs and fake purses and Disney toys, but they pop up and get shut down pretty fast, and the suckers who get involved lose everything. It's like drugs - the guys making the money aren't the street level dealers.

    As for GTT, yes their patent will expire, yes it will allow some limited application of their technology to enter the market from competition - that's a great thing. What we probably won't see is a huge flood of torches made to the same standards and quality that GTT is known for, nor will there be a huge price drop. If you were to go out today and try to make a knock off GTT and sell it you'd most certainly end up in legal trouble.
    Doug Harroun
    Greymatter Glass
    Albuquerque, NM
    (505) 884-0318

    A̿̐͒ͥ̏̅͋ͤͮ́́̒͢͏̨͙̩̦͔̫̠̲̤ͅ ̑ͨ̎͆͐̉̍̐ͤͮͨ͐̇ͩͦ̏ͣ̚͏̷̶̭̝̠͓̞̱̭̫͙̜̮̫͔̤̱͕͢b̓̓ͭ̿̓ͥ̐̒͂͂ͧ ̡̓͋̐ͥ҉̧̹͎̺̳̩̬̘̯̮̜̼̻͝ͅē̵̹̯̦̟͔͊̓̔͗͊̀͆͗̀ͭͭ̀̇͋͋ͩ̓̓͞͞͞ ̘̰̘͈a̧̹͙͇̫̲̻̳̦̦͛͑͂̌̊́̌̂̅ͤ̿͠ͅų̷̶̡̺̤̳͐̂ͣ̋̀ͅͅt̍̀͋̽͗̚ ̶͎͎̳̤͈̘̞͕̣̲̣̼͙͎̬̪̜͎̯ͤ̃̈́ͬͧ͒͟͞͝͡iͪ̋̌̄̎ͪ́̚҉̶̰͎̣̥͉̙̘̬͝ ͍͈̻̻f̡̟̤̥̝̞̈̋ͧͮ̂ͣͬͨ͆͊̌̇ͨ̚͠͞u̵ͥͦ̑ͧ̆͂͐̊̏̍̋̓͗ͭͫ͆́̃͊͘̕ ̛̱̳͓̠͖̕ḹ̢̧̦̬̲̟̳̉ͯͫ̊̏ͪͫ͝ͅ ̵̺̫͙̗̦̠̯̞̫̪̩͐ͭͮ̏̓͒̏͊͋̚̚͘ͅḧ̨̛̭̼̘ͤͥ̿ͫ̊ͦͧͮͮ̀̓̔͌̉̓̀̀͡ ̺͚e̷̦̤̘̯͎̜͇͚͔̱̙͖ͪ͛ͤͮͬ͆͆̾̾͂̑͆̓͜ȧ̴̋ͨ͂ͣͬ̓̆͐̾̿̐̃̒͊͌́͝ ̷͇̮̙̗͉͍r̵̜̰̣̫͙̦̻̖͕͎̘̲̗̘ͦ̋̑̀̌̎̓ͭ̚͞tͨ̅̇͛ͫͫ̆ͪ̌͋ͩ̉ͯ͊͌̌ ̴̨̢̭͚̳̦͖̻̮̬̣̮̟͓͉̪͈̍ ̷̷̫̬͈͓̞͈̞̬̹̟̯͚̹͇̩̏͋ͬ̍͛̎̑̄̽ͦ̆̔̈́̀͆ͩ̓


    .

  16. #76
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    Default Re: Official looking for GTT thread!

    hey man- not going to get in an argument because i frankly don't care, but fact of the matter is you are wrong.

    I personally hold several patents and work in international shipping. So let me super clear when i say customs doesnt check any more than about 2% of the items that come into this country, and its nice to say patent xxxxxxxx but it means dick all.

    cheers bud

  17. #77
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    Default Re: Official looking for GTT thread!

    If patents mean dick all, why did you apply for any of the patents you hold?

    You've responded more than once - you're already in an argument. Declaring you don't care is the opposite of your actions. Your words and actions are contradictory.

    What does customs quality control have to do with anything? Patents, like many laws, are enforced when they are found to amount to real money - searching 100% of imports is both impossible and impractical, and has little to do with the fact that they don't honor US patents overseas. The point you were making earlier is that they have tons of patent infringing products overseas, and that's true, but they don't within the US - so, what customs does has nothing to do with what you're talking about.

    If patent xxxx means dick all, why are there billions of dollars changing hands in court over the concept? Why are there thousands of people writing news articles about them daily, or however many people the USPTO employs? You are a clueless Jackass (that's not name-calling, that's your name) - so, I am glad you seem to not want to continue to post about this issue.

  18. #78

    Default Re: Official looking for GTT thread!

    Looking to buy a Gtt phantom (maybe something higher) and cheetah

  19. #79
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    Default Re: Official looking for GTT thread!

    Anyone got a Delta Mag with or without air? I have a Mirage without air and cash if it sweetens the deal. If anyone is interested in the Mirage pm me and I will get some pics together. Thanks

  20. #80

    Default Gtt phantom 4 stud

    Looking for a 4 stud phantom in good shape. Tired of waiting hoping GTT will call this month.

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