Hey guys...can i get some input on this situation?

[Mr.P0rn]

Hello everyone! Lately I've been dealing with a difficult situation, and before escalating it, I wanted to get some input from some other glassblowers to basically make sure I'm not being the asshole here. In spirit of protecting the involved parties, please consider this HYPOTHETICAL situation below.

You are cruising FB one day....and you see an awesome lathe, you've been saving up for almost 2 years to get this exact lathe, and someone has one, freshly refurbished from Litton. The person selling it just wants it gone, and they are selling it for a really cheap deal. If it matters, they inherited it for free somehow, so they have no money into it, and they don't want to move it, or use it. You make a comment on the post endorsing the deal to others, because you know it's a good deal. No one seems interested.

The person sends you a message, and offers it to you for half of what they were asking originally (which was a good deal), because you are interested and they want it sold TODAY. They tell you initially that they can arrange shipping, and have already reached out to a company, but that you will be responsible for paying the shipping. You check your finances, and because it's such a good deal...you actually have enough saved! Well..almost enough, but you can stretch yourself SUPER thin to make it happen, so you do. The lathe comes with 2 brand new scroll chucks, and everything else you will need. There is even a picture of the chucks on the for sale post, separate from the lathe. When you tell the seller you can manage the sale, they remind you that chucks are also involved. You are ecstatic. You pay for the lathe the same day (Paypal, NOT friends and family).

You are waiting to hear back from the shipping company, and also spend a day pricing other shipping options. The problem you run into, is that the shipper is in a different state and you can't find a shipping company who can go and pick up the item and crate it and ship it, and the seller can't crate the item. You accept that you will likely have to pay the shipping company the shipper already found, and that even if it's a grand or more, this is probably the easiest option.

Eventually, the seller lets you know that their shipper is not able to ship this item. Remember...you have already paid, and you REALLY want the item. The seller explains that they are handling an estate, and that's where this lathe has come from. They explain that they will be flying home, away from the estate, and that if you find/arrange shipping, there is a neighbor who has access to the home where the garage and chucks are, and has agreed to let the movers in, as long as we let the seller know when the movers will be there so she can let the neighbor know.

You start looking for other options, and realize you have a local friend who is from the area where the lathe is located! Score! So, this person hooks you up with one of their friends, who actually owns a "do it all" handyman style business. They are more than willing to go get a moving truck, go get your item, drive it to your state, and be flown home, as long as you pay for all of it. They are actually excited, because they can see their childhood friend who now lives local to you!

You contact the seller and let them know. They remind you that as long as you let them know when the movers will come, they will make sure the neighbor can be there to let the movers in. You tell the seller that You have to wait a week for your mover to get time off work and arrange the trip. You also tell the seller that you are traveling for an event for a week, and are aiming to have the mover do the job the following week. They tell you that the lathe is the only item left at the estate home, and it's safe/fine as long as you are working on getting it. The mover gets the time off, but almost has to move the job, because of a SERIOUS hurricane that fucks up that entire portion of the country. You let the seller know, and they are fine. You tell the seller that the movers will come in two weeks, and you tell the seller the exact time and day they can be expected. The seller says they will let the neighbor know.

While you are at said glass event (remote location, with spotty service and internet, which you had warned the seller could be an issue before leaving), the mover arrives for the item. At the designated time and place, they can't get ahold of the neighbor. You go back through your texts and realize you were never given the neighbors info. You always write down important info on a legal pad when you are on the phone, so you check that...there's info about everything else you talked about, but no contact info for the neighbor. You are trying to reach the seller, with the movers waiting at the location. The plan was to load the truck, and make a 17 hour drive in one shot, through the hurricane, but now this is costing time. You finally get ahold of the seller and get the neighbors info. The seller becomes very nasty and tells you that they already gave you the neighbors info in a text, and they told you it was your job to contact the neighbor. You request multiple times for them to show you where they sent you the info, and they can't / won't.

The mover calls the neighbor, and they are A. At work, and B. Pissed off because NO ONE ever mentioned ANYTHING to them about this. They don't know they are representing the seller, or letting movers in, or that there's an item being sold...they literally know NOTHING of the situation. They leave work to come home to let the movers in, but it takes another hour or two. Your mover is pissed because it's taken so long, and they had trouble reaching you because you were in a remote location. The mover has trouble getting the lathe loaded, but finally manages. The mover doesn't see the chucks, so they ask where the chucks are. They are told that there are no chucks, and there are no other items at the house. The mover makes a quick walk through of the house, and doesn't see anything else. They also are not glassblowers, and only really know what they are there to get, and what they are supposed to do with it. They load the truck, and drive it to you.

By the time the mover arrives with the truck, you are home from your vacation. They open the truck, and you start unloading the lathe. You suddenly realize you don't see the chucks anywhere, so you ask the mover about it. They explain that they weren't there, that they were told there were no chucks, and that they even did a quick walkthrough and didn't see them. They also charge you a 20% fee because they had to wait hours to get let in, and things were not as agreed.

You contact the seller about the chucks, and the movers fee caused by their negligence. They tell you that the chucks were on the back porch, and that they told you multiple times through text that they were there. They tell you that they gave you the neighbors info through text, and they told you that YOU were responsible for contacting the neighbor and arranging the pickup with them. You request 3 different times for them to show you where they EVER told you either thing, and they won't / cant. (Obviously you go back and look to make sure you are not wrong.) You are polite with the seller even though they are very nasty and accusatory. You explain to them that you just want an amicable agreement because A. You are not responsible for arranging their end of your deal. B. You are not responsible for arranging their representation for their end of the deal, C. It's unreasonable to expect you to arrange with the neighbor when you were never given their information and the seller told you twice that they would do that if you gave them the time, which you did 2 weeks ahead of time, and D. The additional moving fee was incurred from their negligence and E. The lathe is unusable without chucks, and chucks are expensive, so now you basically have to buy chucks to be able to use a machine sold to you as "ready to use" (Specifically a selling point in the listing). Not only is the seller nasty, they won't address any of your direct concerns and ultimately tell you that because they gave you such a good deal on the lathe, you should be happy, chucks or not, and if you are unhappy with the deal, you should sell the lathe. The seller says that the movers should have seen the chucks on the back porch, and they are not responsible if the movers didn't find them.

THANKS FOR READING THIS FAR...so my view is, if the movers show up, they are just there to do the job they are paid for. if they are told "there are no chucks" and they STILL look for them and don't find them, how can they be blamed? If you schedule a pickup with UPS, and it's for 7 boxes...UPS shows up, finds 6 boxes, asks the person at the location why a box doesn't seem to be here, and the person says that is all the boxes....the UPS guy isn't going to argue or search the premises...so why would that be expected here? Am i being unreasonable for demanding what we agreed to? If the seller is nasty, refuses to address my concerns, and ultimately just stops responding to emails and phone calls, would I be wrong to escalate a paypal dispute? Before I get really hard lined about this, i wanted some input. The "lathe" was a great deal, and I admit that, but regardless of how good the deal was, i feel entitled to everything we agreed to. The lathe was specifically marked "ready to use" and it isn't because there are no chucks...so does it make a difference that it was a good deal? What if buying chucks puts you within 10% of full retail value of the lathe, would that invalidate the sellers argument? Is the sellers argument valid anyway, given the fact that the deal is, what the deal is?

Thanks for your input everyone!

[somewhere]

That's a tough one but things happen and it's not what it is usually but how we react.

Not sure if I can say anything to make you feel better or help the situation.

Don't forget you where aware the seller is not a glass blower and you really had no idea if the lathe was in usable condition. You were happy with the deal and ecstatic when you realized the chucks are included. I would try and make the best out of the situation and pay to have the chucks shipped. I don't see how you can possibly recoup any money from the seller or the neighbor. All I can see is you feeling shorted or taken advantage of. I don't see any winning solution except for you to take the high road and just try to embrace the good deal you found.

Oh and 20percent increase from the movers is bs and no way would I pay that for a couple of hours waiting around. Just my opinion.

[Swim]

wow, that is some shit there. YOu have grounds for a lawsuit that would reach out of small claims court in my opinion

[Firekist]

You didn't get what you paid for. i'd have no problems opening a dispute on that. i would not dispute the entire purchase price over it, unless paypal is setup as all or nothing. i'm sure the all option would get their attention to get the chucks sorted out. gluck.

[Mr.P0rn]

It's kind of tricky to make a good analogy with such a complex situation, but I mean't that the movers are not glassblowers. They didn't really know much about the machine they were moving, but they did ask about the chucks because they had been told there were two items, a lathe, and the chucks (or you know...three items, however you want to count it). The seller has been in the glass industry as long as I have been alive, so they were fairly well educated on the lathe, and knowing it was a fresh refurb also made them aware it was in good shape.

I did know it was in good condition because I could see it in the pictures (item involved is not actually a lathe, so things like how true it is aren't ACTUALLY valid here). Also, even if i THOUGHT it was in good condition, and they described it as in "like new condition, and ready to use", then there's a discrepancy with the description, but that seems like a small point compared to not getting all the items included.

Because it was a Paypal insured transaction, it seems reasonable that she broke the rules by not included all the pictured and agreed upon items. I wouldn't try to recover any money from the neighbor, they were just trying to help and the whole situation was super unfair to them. A large amount of the problem arose because the seller did not make any effort to have someone available so we could pick up the lathe. The mover calling the neighbor was the first time the neighbor had heard anything about it. I am also thinking it is wrong / against paypal terms to arrange a deal like this, and not make a reasonable effort to be there / have representation, especially for such an expensive item. I'm thinking it's unreasonable to sell someone an item telling them you have already found a company who can ship, accept the payment, and then tell them they are responsible for shipping, and you will arrange it on your end, and then blame the buyer for not setting it up with a neighbor who they don't know, and who's information they don't have.

-This last paragraph is the main reason i asked for the advice of others. I want to know if you guys think not getting what you paid for and agreed upon is a good enough reason to dispute a resolution from Paypal, because buying a new set of chucks will cost a lot of money that i can't spare, and because the item is not actually a lathe, buying new chucks makes the "lathe" 90%+ the retail value, negating the argument for the amazing price. The reason I am using a lathe / chucks as an example is that the item cost as much as some lathes retail, and the item required to make it work cost at least as much as a new set of scroll chucks. The reason why i asked for input instead of just doing it, is that I'm afraid of being blasted by the buyer in the community because she claims she texted me all of the neighbors info, making it my responsibility, and A. she didn't, and B. she won't respond / address my request for proof even when there was communication.

[Mr.P0rn]

@Firekist - That was my line of reasoning. The seller would be under a lot of pressure if they got the whole item back and had to deal with it, and i don't wish to undo our deal either. I don't want to dispute an unfair amount, I was thinking of splitting the cost of the chucks, and the actual item involved is so large and heavy to ship that me buying a new one locally would make more sense...but I thought meeting them in the middle would be more than reasonable. I'm not looking for "revenge" or anything. The reason why I paid the movers is...20% was $200, and the plan had been for them to go early and be ahead of the hurricane. Because this happened, they had to drive the moving truck through the hurricane, and we are talking about a hurricane that we all would recognize the name of because it was national news. The moving company is actually a handyman style company, so it's not as though they have a full fleet of moving trucks and do moving full time, leaving a day later would have caused a fee on the truck rental, and taken away their ability to see my local friend, which was the main incentive for them to take the job anyway. Given the circumstances of the deal, it seemed fair to me. That hurricane was some serious shit, and I felt like the movers did a really good job.

Sorry for the double post guys :/

[BlairArtGlass]

What Firekist said is basically what I was thinking. If you have the documentation that it was supposed to come with chucks and it did not then something should be fixed. Either they need to get you those chucks, or get you a partial refund. It being a good deal in the first place is beside the point. That doesn't invalidate the fraudulant advertising or lack of sending the chucks. An agreement was made and money was exchanged thats basically a contract for both parties to fullfil their end of. You should not have to pay more for the chucks. Maybe the shipping but at this point I don't think you should have to even pay that all things considered. You paid to ship them once, and the seller failed to deliver the product. This is totally on them. The neighbor thing honestly shouldn't have anything to do with it all. The chucks were not with the machine and able to be shipped that means the seller screwed up.

Next why the fuck were the "chucks on the back porch" ? That makes zero sense and frankly sounds like a flat out lie. I would seriously wonder if the chucks were sold seperately to someone else.....

[Cerberus]

pointing fingers won't resolve anything. since you paid for the lathe plus two chucks the deal is not yet closed. dispute the transaction so there is a record of the transgression and you have something to hold as negotiating leverage. placing shipping and pickup responsibility on an out of state buyer is pretty weak IMO, especially from a private residence and also thru unknown-to-each-other private third parties.
she owes you the chucks and you should keep the dispute open until she ships them. Since the failure of communication was shared and you and your mover did due diligence to locate the chucks which really should have been in proximity to the lathe she should cover the shipping to offset your movers extra charge. that seems a fair resolution.
buying out of state used equip sight unseen is a risky option under the BEST circumstances.

[Swim]

100% file a claim.

[Swim]

the cheapest chucks for a litton or heathway are probably 1500ish bucks, I hope it all gets resolved smoothly so you can come back and brag about your machine.

[Mr.P0rn]

Thanks guys, I appreciate the advice. Pretty much all of you have echoed my sentiments, and I feel more comfortable that if this does turn into an even bigger mess, that the majority of people will be able to see that I'm not being malicious or being unreasonable. You guys know how fickle our community can be If I didn't rep you for your advice, then the love must be spread around first!

[MUPH]

It seems like the condition of the lathe is rather subjective. Everyone's opinion of "ready to use" is different so I don't think you'll have a strong case there. It sucks, but you're kind of stuck on that one.

The chucks are definite. You bought them but you didn't get them. I would absolutely file a claim for the chucks

[raul24]

Have you checked that Litton did the refurbishment.

[Mr.P0rn]

@Muph - That's true. For sake of argument, lets say it was sold as "ready to make beautiful pieces", but if the chucks are not there, this is untrue because a lathe cannot function without chucks.

@Raul - The item in question isn't actually a lathe, so I am trying to make an analogy with the quality of the item. The item was for sure in the shape sold as (aside from usable, but only due to lacking a vital component). So for sake of the analogy, we should say that I did check, and it was legitimate.

[Mike_Aurelius]

Coming into this late, but hell yeah. File a claim. Back it up with all the documentation and pictures. Provide proof that the lathe was sold with chucks detached but as part of the package.

[BlairArtGlass]

Honestly, a really good question considering all the rest of this.

Edited: scratch that, I missed the reply

[MUPH]

@Muph - That's true. For sake of argument, lets say it was sold as "ready to make beautiful pieces", but if the chucks are not there, this is untrue because a lathe cannot function without chucks

The chucks should have come with the lathe. I understand where your coming from with the lathe not being in working order and I agree with you, but if his opinion was the lathe is in working order, then it's his word against yours and that is never a position you want to be in. Even though you are right, it's hard to prove because a lathe is a rather specific tool and most people don't know how they operate.

[Mr.P0rn]

@Muph - Agreed. I guess the point for the dispute would be "This is a necessary part of the item for operation, therefore, without the item, it is not operable" But as I said above...i probably won't even mention this specific fact, because it seems like a super weak argument compared to the fact that an agreed upon expensive part of the deal wasn't included.

[snoopdog6502]

I would seek a refund of enough to buy NEW chucks. It sounds like a nightmare, sorry you are dealing with this.

If you ever buy a lathe at an auction, the auctioneers love to make a separate sale on the chucks. In that case have a unknown partner buy the chucks as the lathe and chucks sold separate are pretty much low priced individually. we got a 18" x 120" Mazak and 5 chucks for $2,000. It was a huge ass lathe so few bidders wanted it.

[Misfitman]

I would seek a refund of enough to buy NEW chucks. It sounds like a nightmare, sorry you are dealing with this.

If you ever buy a lathe at an auction, the auctioneers love to make a separate sale on the chucks. In that case have a unknown partner buy the chucks as the lathe and chucks sold separate are pretty much low priced individually. we got a 18" x 120" Mazak and 5 chucks for $2,000. It was a huge ass lathe so few bidders wanted it.

where do i find deals like that?